Do you guys think the scale as is gives players enough usages? If they changed it to proficiency bonus per day, would it matter?
Personally I think the current scale doesn’t offer enough usages. I understand the need for resource management, but at 5th level when full spellcasters have 9 spell slots to juggle…3 rages just seems lacking. Also worth noting that these full casters tend to have other abilities that they can utilize *more often* than Barbarians can rage. Channel Divinity can typically be used more than rage. Meta Magic can typically be used more than rage and I kinda feel like rage is the central ability for Barbarians. Reckless comes with a catch and only really works because you take the half damage.
And if WotC’s recommendations of 6-8 combats per day is followed, that means literally half of the fights in tier 2 are without rage.
I don’t think it should be an unlimited amount. If an NPC creates a condition where you are unable to attack, that’s good strategy. So maybe an ability where when you roll initiative and have no rages, you regain one usage…but I don’t think the current scaling works very good
Honeslty, I think Rages should come back on a Short Rest. Even if that means giving out less of them total, it feels like a feature that should come back on a short rest.
# of rages and rage damage should go up with class level equivalent of proficiency bonus. That is slower for rages and faster for damage. That would be my recommendation.
Why would you need rages for non-combat challenges? You can't even maintain rage in a non-combat situation unless you're stabbing yourself every round.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Why would you need rages for non-combat challenges? You can't even maintain rage in a non-combat situation unless you're stabbing yourself every round.
I mean, there may be a one off strength check/save but with current scaling you just can’t use it out of combat. Admittedly that’s pretty circumstantial though
But sometimes I’d say there may be a few minor encounters that you want to rage for just to keep the damage from stacking up, and you have to pick and choose. Where as Spellcasters tend to not run out of spells unless they’re reckless
2/rest would match both Druid Wild Shape and Warlock spell slot scaling from levels 2-10 and better fit how most people want to use rage. An entirely separate issue would be improving the scaling of the benefits of rage, but you could certainly increase its maximum duration without worrying about making it overpowered, since it usually ends before its maximum duration anyway. The #/rest need not be static, either - e.g. you could make it Con mod/rest.
I think it is a bit limited and I base this on other abilities of similar structure.
I currently play a lvl 14 Barb/fighter (9/5) and I get 4 rages per long rest as a lvl 9 barby. I also get 5 uses of Giants Might as a lvl 5 fighter. Both are BA. Both are regained on a LR. It makes no sense that I get 20% less rage options than I get Giants Might options.
Couple this with the fact that I can actually carry over my GM from one fight to the next (it last 10 rounds so room to room fighting while it is still up is realistic), Rage of course drops if you have any break in combat (at least for most levels of barb).
I'm a lvl 13 barb and I've run out of rages only once because we had nowhere to safely take a LR. Now that I have 5/D, I usually have at least one or two left. It would be nice if we got one back with a short rest though.
You get this stupid dynamic where Rage is anger, but being angry won't trigger Rage. Because you don't want to waste it, and it doesn't really accomplish anything to use it outside of combat. So you can get as pissed off as you want, but you'll never actually Rage out of anger.
Make it have infinite uses per day. Maybe it gets some kind of drawback so you don't spam it 24/7. I'm not really here to design drawbacks. But it seems so obvious that it should be infinite.
Giving a class full resistance to all physical damage types at level 1 with no limits would be broken as hell. There isn't really a downside you could put on an ability that would balance it. Most classes don't provide resistance to damage until 6-10th level, and then it's generally limited to elemental damage. The only ones that provide permanent resistance to bludgeoning, slashing, and piercing damage tend to get it as a capstone ability and it's usually limited to nonmagical damage only.
Beyond that, the barbarian's Rage isn't just being mad, it's working yourself into such a heightened state of aggression that you Hulk Out. That's not something you can just do whenever you like, it takes effort to get that angry, you can't just do it whenever you'd like (until 20th level, when you're a super-powered individual anyway).
Yeah, except that the Hulk was infused with magic radiation that gave him literal superpowers, while a barbarian is throwing themselves into a battle frenzy that gets a little magic oomph at third level depending on subclass. There has to be limits.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Having only 1/2 the combats evolve rage is by design for t2 (and that's only if every encounter is combat, as most camp involve a mix of RP and Explore you'll find most adventuring days you don't run out of rages), and makes sense. 5e has tiers of levels that kind of provide diff experiences. t1 hot mess just trying to survive, t2 resource management so you can be a BA when it matters, t3 bad ass, t4 demi-god.
If you modify the refresh part of rages or give them more so they can rage every combat you remove all resource management from the class. At that point just play a t3 campaign instead. If you are playing a t1/t2 camp you presumably wanted to deal with the resource management so don't rob yourself/table of that experience.
Of course it is your game you can just throw out all resource management and have a go-ham one-shot, or allow the party to take a long rest after every combat. Some tables run that way and enjoy it. But I wouldn't want that to be RAW.
Having only 1/2 the combats evolve rage is by design for t2 (and that's only if every encounter is combat, as most camp involve a mix of RP and Explore you'll find most adventuring days you don't run out of rages), and makes sense. 5e has tiers of levels that kind of provide diff experiences. t1 hot mess just trying to survive, t2 resource management so you can be a BA when it matters, t3 bad ass, t4 demi-god.
If you modify the refresh part of rages or give them more so they can rage every combat you remove all resource management from the class. At that point just play a t3 campaign instead. If you are playing a t1/t2 camp you presumably wanted to deal with the resource management so don't rob yourself/table of that experience.
Of course it is your game you can just throw out all resource management and have a go-ham one-shot, or allow the party to take a long rest after every combat. Some tables run that way and enjoy it. But I wouldn't want that to be RAW.
Do you think Rage is more or less just as manageable as say a Wizard’s spell slots?
or if we’re gonna just compare martial classes, do you think rogues get sneak attack more or less than 1/2 their turns?
I only ask because I tend to find it more difficult to manage that resource than either of the other two
I think wizards can only haste 1/2 the encounters at t2 yeah.
Sneak attacks are per turn thing, and rouge should be trying to get them often but often won't be able to get a sneak attack every shot. That not how that class works. That just a terrible compare. Edit: But yeah, I think in t2 you will get rage on about the same % of turns as a rouge gets sneak attack as is. Not that is even really an indication of power level, but my gut feel from the games i"ve been in is they both are probably around 2/3 of the time.
If you expect to rage every combat, then why have it be a resource at all? why even rage? just make it a class feature that you take half damage from physical and get bonus damage. Again if you want that, then you can get that by over use of long rests and many tables play that way. But that isn't balanced and should't be RAW. This is like going into the wizard form and complaining your spell slots don't come back on a short rest, or that it silly you have to manage your spells. Yeah .. of course you do. /shrug
I think wizards can only haste 1/2 the encounters at t2 yeah.
Sneak attacks are per turn thing, and rouge should be trying to get them often but often won't be able to get a sneak attack every shot. That not how that class works. That just a terrible compare. Edit: But yeah, I think in t2 you will get rage on about the same % of turns as a rouge gets sneak attack as is. Not that is even really an indication of power level, but my gut feel from the games i"ve been in is they both are probably around 2/3 of the time.
If you expect to rage every combat, then why have it be a resource at all? why even rage? just make it a class feature that you take half damage from physical and get bonus damage. Again if you want that, then you can get that by over use of long rests and many tables play that way. But that isn't balanced and should't be RAW. This is like going into the wizard form and complaining your spell slots don't come back on a short rest, or that it silly you have to manage your spells. Yeah .. of course you do. /shrug
Definitely said I don’t think it should be unlimited, more so wondering what the consensus is and if other players/DMs think it’s a bit tighter than it should what a good number would be.
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Do you guys think the scale as is gives players enough usages? If they changed it to proficiency bonus per day, would it matter?
Personally I think the current scale doesn’t offer enough usages. I understand the need for resource management, but at 5th level when full spellcasters have 9 spell slots to juggle…3 rages just seems lacking. Also worth noting that these full casters tend to have other abilities that they can utilize *more often* than Barbarians can rage. Channel Divinity can typically be used more than rage. Meta Magic can typically be used more than rage and I kinda feel like rage is the central ability for Barbarians. Reckless comes with a catch and only really works because you take the half damage.
And if WotC’s recommendations of 6-8 combats per day is followed, that means literally half of the fights in tier 2 are without rage.
I don’t think it should be an unlimited amount. If an NPC creates a condition where you are unable to attack, that’s good strategy. So maybe an ability where when you roll initiative and have no rages, you regain one usage…but I don’t think the current scaling works very good
Honeslty, I think Rages should come back on a Short Rest. Even if that means giving out less of them total, it feels like a feature that should come back on a short rest.
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A rage lasts for a minute. Most spells are instantaneous. Also, I've yet to find anyone who actually runs games with 6-8 combat encounters per day.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
# of rages and rage damage should go up with class level equivalent of proficiency bonus. That is slower for rages and faster for damage. That would be my recommendation.
Not consistently, but I’ve been able to do it in my Descent into Avernus campaign…but it helps that i don’t have to follow a true day night cycle
Why would you need rages for non-combat challenges? You can't even maintain rage in a non-combat situation unless you're stabbing yourself every round.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I mean, there may be a one off strength check/save but with current scaling you just can’t use it out of combat. Admittedly that’s pretty circumstantial though
But sometimes I’d say there may be a few minor encounters that you want to rage for just to keep the damage from stacking up, and you have to pick and choose. Where as Spellcasters tend to not run out of spells unless they’re reckless
2/rest would match both Druid Wild Shape and Warlock spell slot scaling from levels 2-10 and better fit how most people want to use rage. An entirely separate issue would be improving the scaling of the benefits of rage, but you could certainly increase its maximum duration without worrying about making it overpowered, since it usually ends before its maximum duration anyway. The #/rest need not be static, either - e.g. you could make it Con mod/rest.
I think it is a bit limited and I base this on other abilities of similar structure.
I currently play a lvl 14 Barb/fighter (9/5) and I get 4 rages per long rest as a lvl 9 barby. I also get 5 uses of Giants Might as a lvl 5 fighter. Both are BA. Both are regained on a LR. It makes no sense that I get 20% less rage options than I get Giants Might options.
Couple this with the fact that I can actually carry over my GM from one fight to the next (it last 10 rounds so room to room fighting while it is still up is realistic), Rage of course drops if you have any break in combat (at least for most levels of barb).
I'm a lvl 13 barb and I've run out of rages only once because we had nowhere to safely take a LR. Now that I have 5/D, I usually have at least one or two left. It would be nice if we got one back with a short rest though.
I'd like to see it fully unlimited.
You get this stupid dynamic where Rage is anger, but being angry won't trigger Rage. Because you don't want to waste it, and it doesn't really accomplish anything to use it outside of combat. So you can get as pissed off as you want, but you'll never actually Rage out of anger.
Make it have infinite uses per day. Maybe it gets some kind of drawback so you don't spam it 24/7. I'm not really here to design drawbacks. But it seems so obvious that it should be infinite.
Giving a class full resistance to all physical damage types at level 1 with no limits would be broken as hell. There isn't really a downside you could put on an ability that would balance it. Most classes don't provide resistance to damage until 6-10th level, and then it's generally limited to elemental damage. The only ones that provide permanent resistance to bludgeoning, slashing, and piercing damage tend to get it as a capstone ability and it's usually limited to nonmagical damage only.
Beyond that, the barbarian's Rage isn't just being mad, it's working yourself into such a heightened state of aggression that you Hulk Out. That's not something you can just do whenever you like, it takes effort to get that angry, you can't just do it whenever you'd like (until 20th level, when you're a super-powered individual anyway).
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Well, it didn't have to be that.
Cope..? I almost referenced the Hulk myself. I think his example supports my position better than it supports yours.
Yeah, except that the Hulk was infused with magic radiation that gave him literal superpowers, while a barbarian is throwing themselves into a battle frenzy that gets a little magic oomph at third level depending on subclass. There has to be limits.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Having only 1/2 the combats evolve rage is by design for t2 (and that's only if every encounter is combat, as most camp involve a mix of RP and Explore you'll find most adventuring days you don't run out of rages), and makes sense. 5e has tiers of levels that kind of provide diff experiences. t1 hot mess just trying to survive, t2 resource management so you can be a BA when it matters, t3 bad ass, t4 demi-god.
If you modify the refresh part of rages or give them more so they can rage every combat you remove all resource management from the class. At that point just play a t3 campaign instead. If you are playing a t1/t2 camp you presumably wanted to deal with the resource management so don't rob yourself/table of that experience.
Of course it is your game you can just throw out all resource management and have a go-ham one-shot, or allow the party to take a long rest after every combat. Some tables run that way and enjoy it. But I wouldn't want that to be RAW.
Do you think Rage is more or less just as manageable as say a Wizard’s spell slots?
or if we’re gonna just compare martial classes, do you think rogues get sneak attack more or less than 1/2 their turns?
I only ask because I tend to find it more difficult to manage that resource than either of the other two
I think wizards can only haste 1/2 the encounters at t2 yeah.
Sneak attacks are per turn thing, and rouge should be trying to get them often but often won't be able to get a sneak attack every shot. That not how that class works. That just a terrible compare. Edit: But yeah, I think in t2 you will get rage on about the same % of turns as a rouge gets sneak attack as is. Not that is even really an indication of power level, but my gut feel from the games i"ve been in is they both are probably around 2/3 of the time.
If you expect to rage every combat, then why have it be a resource at all? why even rage? just make it a class feature that you take half damage from physical and get bonus damage. Again if you want that, then you can get that by over use of long rests and many tables play that way. But that isn't balanced and should't be RAW. This is like going into the wizard form and complaining your spell slots don't come back on a short rest, or that it silly you have to manage your spells. Yeah .. of course you do. /shrug
Definitely said I don’t think it should be unlimited, more so wondering what the consensus is and if other players/DMs think it’s a bit tighter than it should what a good number would be.