I made another thread about the potential for battle-field control and enemy lockdown with the new One DnD options (Link Here) and so I thought I would try my hand at a build and see what you thought.
Korgoth Earth-heart
Str 17 (15 +2), Dex 14, Con 16 (15+1), Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 8
Species: Goliath (Hill Giant) Ancestry. This will allow me to knock an enemy prone (no save) on a hit (Proficiency Bonus x/long rest). Average effective 15ft. movement reduction
Background: Farmer (+2 str, +1 con, Animal Handling and Nature, with the Tough feat for +2hp per level)
Class: Barbarian (Athletics and Perception skills), eventually choosing the Path of the World Tree
Lv1: Rage (resistance to mundane damage and +2 damage to melee and thrown attacks), Push Mastery (as well as Topple) for an effective 10ft. movement reduction
At this point I can knock an enemy back 10ft. and prone if I hit them.. at range or in melee
Lv2: Reckless Attack for on demand advantage (melee or thrown)
Lv3: Path of the World Tree (Vitality of the Tree, temp hit points to me and allies)
Lv4: Polearm Master (Bonus action and Reaction). As well as the Slow Weapon Mastery (getting some Javelins)
At this point I can knock two enemies enemy back 10ft. and prone if I hit them in melee and I can do the same as a reaction too if they approach (again)
Lv5: Extra Attack and Fast Movement
I will now switch from the Crossbow to thrown weapons and I can now knock three enemies enemy back 10ft. and prone if I hit them in melee or two at range.
Lv6: Branches of the Tree (I can teleport an enemy next to me, away from allies)
Lv7: Feral Instinct and Instinctive Pounce
Lv8: Great Weapon Mastery (some extra damage, I would take Sentinel but it doesn't work with Polearm Master anymore)
Lv9: Brutal Strike (THIS is what we are here for, 15ft knockback or slow on every attack if we forsake advantage) effective 15ft. movement reduction
Lv10: Battering Roots (THIS is why we chose World Tree, the Pike and Trident now have both Push and Topple for every attack, and 10ft. reach increase)
Now every attack ranged and melee that hits (no limited resource) is guaranteed to knockback 25ft. and the enemy must make a save or be knocked prone too. I can make three melee attacks with 20ft. reach or throw some [/item]Trident[/item]s and then if an enemy comes within 10ft. of me I can knock them back as a reaction... Had I mentioned that I can be large too, due to Goliath and so I can really protect my allies.
Edit: It may be worth taking the Crusher feat for the Bonus Action Polearm Master attack for a higher level feat... not sure!
Something to remember with at-will proning: Your ranged players will hate you if you go to that well too often.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
True! Though I suppose two rounds of attacking a melee enemy at ranged with disadvantage is order of magnitudes better than one round fighting a melee enemy in melee as a ranged character (and so likely also at disadvantage, one way or another)
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D&D, Youth Work and the Priesthood sadly do not typically interact... I do what I can!
When I had this conversation with the melee player in my current party he told me to use other spells. I suggested that fireball would be appropriate. He didn't think that was as good of a compromise as I did.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
No, because it would not discourage the degenerate behavior. Plus, the way my DM rules held actions, I'd only get one bolt from my eldritch blast., rather than the full amount. I do not darkness/devil's sight for the exact same reason unless I can get into a corner where I won't be hurting my party members by blocking their line of sight. Sure, I can get /myself/ at-will advantage. Should I though, is the question. When you're impacting your teammates fun with your 'playstyle' then the answer is no, you should not.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Sounds like that could be a pretty toxic table :-/ At least that would be how I would feel looking in from the outside if the DM punished me for working with my team-mates and using tactical play
we all agreed on the DM's interpretation of how it works. When I need to delay, generally I'll take the hit and queue up something besides EB. Honestly, it's an excuse to cast something else. That said, at-will giving me and other ranged characters disadvantage constantly, that's not really cool. But that's why I bring it up, it's something that could be an option. used tactically, it's awesome. When it becomes spammable with weapon masteries...that's more problematic.
The table's actually far from toxic. We just have one player who tries a bit hard to min-max too much sometimes and doesn't really pay attention how those actions impact others. We're all RL friends who used to work together, and have been playing together since 4e. We generally work to avoid touching each other's pain points.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
The table's actually far from toxic. We're all RL friends who used to work together, and have been playing together since 4e.
Oh I am so glad to hear that, I love my table too and it really saddens me when I hear people's horror stories online!
I think I am picturing knockin enemies prone differently, and so let me share my perspective on what it would mean for the battlefield, team-work and affecting allies.
I do not picture repeatly knocking enemies prone in the context of giving ranged allies disadvantage (because I know that can be overcome with held actions at my table, and nobody minds that type of flexible approach) but rather that it is the beefier melee character doing there job of keeping enemies away from the ranged characters.
When the topic came up, our guy was looking at weapon masteries and was like, I can prone every round to get advantage with topple. I said, if you do that, you'd give me disadvantage every round for my eldritch blast. He then told me to just use a saving throw spell. I replied, such as an AOE fireball.
He was totally looking to get himself advantage, not to protect the party. Proning definitely has advantages that should not be ignored. it also should not be the only tool in the kit, particularly when more than half the party is currently primarily ranged. Prone is also not the only way to protect party members. That's really the point. The new system gives melees a lot of flexibility to be awesome. Sometimes, that's a prone. Sometimes it's a push, sometimes it's a sap. It gives melees reasons to actually carry and use a variety of weapons as well. I really do like the system. Forcing ranged to delay every turn is also kinda metagamey and lame even when that option is on the table. there's a time and place, but it shouldn't be every round.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Yeah I hear that a melee character inconveniencing ranged characters isn’t fun!
I think what I’m pointing out is that this is not what i am proposing, this is a character that is focused on protecting and supporting allies.
Prone is combo’d with knock-back as a means to an end: to prevent enemies from attacking ranged allies (there will likely still be standing targets, or more rounds to attack to mitigate prone)
For similar reasons the Barb will also be dispensing temp hp and teleporting allies out of harms way
I wasn't trying to imply you were, and I think we're talking past each other a little bit. I was merely trying to point out that going to that as a spammable action would be quite annoying to ranged players. As it is, I think the weapon masteries are going to slow combat down a bit. as there's going to be an endless amount of saves now. What you proposed isn't even spammable, it's capped in use with no save, and you're going to have to carry a bucketful of weapons to get the mastery you want, tactically.
the shieldmaster feat allowing you to either push or prone, when combined with a push or prone weapon will allow both to be pretty much spammed provided you have a shield. As a whole, I think melee martials have been greatly improved due to their weapon masteries. ranged martials, the archers...not looking so hot. There's going to be a lot of push/proning going on with the new rules.
I do think that it's good that melee martials look much more interesting than they did before.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Something to remember with at-will proning: Your ranged players will hate you if you go to that well too often.
I just want to point out that the no-save prone condition a Hill Goliath can induce is not at will, but limited to a number of time equal to his proficiency bonus per long rest. The topple mastery is at will, but the enemy gets a save.
I wish they had changed prone to granting 1/2 cover vs ranged attacks instead of disadvantage, 1 its less crippling, 2 it gives feat options to work around it. 3. it makes sense, cover is based on you having less of the target visible to target, the same can be said for being prone when being shot at at range.
a small enough battlefield though the ranged player can run up get in melee and fire normally as the adv/dis of cover, firing in melee would cancel. Still, very irritating to ranged players if it happens often.
As an aside I do not apply disadvantage for all enemies who are prone, I'm sorry a ogre or giant being prone is not harder to hit at range, its the size of the proverbial barn.
Something to remember with at-will proning: Your ranged players will hate you if you go to that well too often.
I just want to point out that the no-save prone condition a Hill Goliath can induce is not at will, but limited to a number of time equal to his proficiency bonus per long rest. The topple mastery is at will, but the enemy gets a save.
And slowing down the game with melees forcing saves every round is a great idea too. We need less saves in general, not more.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
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I made another thread about the potential for battle-field control and enemy lockdown with the new One DnD options (Link Here) and so I thought I would try my hand at a build and see what you thought.
Korgoth Earth-heart
Str 17 (15 +2), Dex 14, Con 16 (15+1), Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 8
Species: Goliath (Hill Giant) Ancestry. This will allow me to knock an enemy prone (no save) on a hit (Proficiency Bonus x/long rest). Average effective 15ft. movement reduction
Background: Farmer (+2 str, +1 con, Animal Handling and Nature, with the Tough feat for +2hp per level)
Class: Barbarian (Athletics and Perception skills), eventually choosing the Path of the World Tree
Equipment: Scale Mail (16ac) with a Pike, Crossbow, Heavy (Both have the Push Mastery) and if there is any money left, some Tridents (Topple).
Level by level:
Lv1: Rage (resistance to mundane damage and +2 damage to melee and thrown attacks), Push Mastery (as well as Topple) for an effective 10ft. movement reduction
At this point I can knock an enemy back 10ft. and prone if I hit them.. at range or in melee
Lv2: Reckless Attack for on demand advantage (melee or thrown)
Lv3: Path of the World Tree (Vitality of the Tree, temp hit points to me and allies)
Lv4: Polearm Master (Bonus action and Reaction). As well as the Slow Weapon Mastery (getting some Javelins)
At this point I can knock two enemies enemy back 10ft. and prone if I hit them in melee and I can do the same as a reaction too if they approach (again)
Lv5: Extra Attack and Fast Movement
I will now switch from the Crossbow to thrown weapons and I can now knock three enemies enemy back 10ft. and prone if I hit them in melee or two at range.
Lv6: Branches of the Tree (I can teleport an enemy next to me, away from allies)
Lv7: Feral Instinct and Instinctive Pounce
Lv8: Great Weapon Mastery (some extra damage, I would take Sentinel but it doesn't work with Polearm Master anymore)
Lv9: Brutal Strike (THIS is what we are here for, 15ft knockback or slow on every attack if we forsake advantage) effective 15ft. movement reduction
Lv10: Battering Roots (THIS is why we chose World Tree, the Pike and Trident now have both Push and Topple for every attack, and 10ft. reach increase)
Now every attack ranged and melee that hits (no limited resource) is guaranteed to knockback 25ft. and the enemy must make a save or be knocked prone too. I can make three melee attacks with 20ft. reach or throw some [/item]Trident[/item]s and then if an enemy comes within 10ft. of me I can knock them back as a reaction... Had I mentioned that I can be large too, due to Goliath and so I can really protect my allies.
Edit: It may be worth taking the Crusher feat for the Bonus Action Polearm Master attack for a higher level feat... not sure!
Something to remember with at-will proning: Your ranged players will hate you if you go to that well too often.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
True! Though I suppose two rounds of attacking a melee enemy at ranged with disadvantage is order of magnitudes better than one round fighting a melee enemy in melee as a ranged character (and so likely also at disadvantage, one way or another)
When I had this conversation with the melee player in my current party he told me to use other spells. I suggested that fireball would be appropriate. He didn't think that was as good of a compromise as I did.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Wouldn't held actions be a better compromise?
No, because it would not discourage the degenerate behavior. Plus, the way my DM rules held actions, I'd only get one bolt from my eldritch blast., rather than the full amount. I do not darkness/devil's sight for the exact same reason unless I can get into a corner where I won't be hurting my party members by blocking their line of sight. Sure, I can get /myself/ at-will advantage. Should I though, is the question. When you're impacting your teammates fun with your 'playstyle' then the answer is no, you should not.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Sounds like that could be a pretty toxic table :-/ At least that would be how I would feel looking in from the outside if the DM punished me for working with my team-mates and using tactical play
we all agreed on the DM's interpretation of how it works. When I need to delay, generally I'll take the hit and queue up something besides EB. Honestly, it's an excuse to cast something else. That said, at-will giving me and other ranged characters disadvantage constantly, that's not really cool. But that's why I bring it up, it's something that could be an option. used tactically, it's awesome. When it becomes spammable with weapon masteries...that's more problematic.
The table's actually far from toxic. We just have one player who tries a bit hard to min-max too much sometimes and doesn't really pay attention how those actions impact others. We're all RL friends who used to work together, and have been playing together since 4e. We generally work to avoid touching each other's pain points.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Oh I am so glad to hear that, I love my table too and it really saddens me when I hear people's horror stories online!
I think I am picturing knockin enemies prone differently, and so let me share my perspective on what it would mean for the battlefield, team-work and affecting allies.
I do not picture repeatly knocking enemies prone in the context of giving ranged allies disadvantage (because I know that can be overcome with held actions at my table, and nobody minds that type of flexible approach) but rather that it is the beefier melee character doing there job of keeping enemies away from the ranged characters.
When the topic came up, our guy was looking at weapon masteries and was like, I can prone every round to get advantage with topple. I said, if you do that, you'd give me disadvantage every round for my eldritch blast. He then told me to just use a saving throw spell. I replied, such as an AOE fireball.
He was totally looking to get himself advantage, not to protect the party. Proning definitely has advantages that should not be ignored. it also should not be the only tool in the kit, particularly when more than half the party is currently primarily ranged. Prone is also not the only way to protect party members. That's really the point. The new system gives melees a lot of flexibility to be awesome. Sometimes, that's a prone. Sometimes it's a push, sometimes it's a sap. It gives melees reasons to actually carry and use a variety of weapons as well. I really do like the system. Forcing ranged to delay every turn is also kinda metagamey and lame even when that option is on the table. there's a time and place, but it shouldn't be every round.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Yeah I hear that a melee character inconveniencing ranged characters isn’t fun!
I think what I’m pointing out is that this is not what i am proposing, this is a character that is focused on protecting and supporting allies.
Prone is combo’d with knock-back as a means to an end: to prevent enemies from attacking ranged allies (there will likely still be standing targets, or more rounds to attack to mitigate prone)
For similar reasons the Barb will also be dispensing temp hp and teleporting allies out of harms way
I wasn't trying to imply you were, and I think we're talking past each other a little bit. I was merely trying to point out that going to that as a spammable action would be quite annoying to ranged players. As it is, I think the weapon masteries are going to slow combat down a bit. as there's going to be an endless amount of saves now. What you proposed isn't even spammable, it's capped in use with no save, and you're going to have to carry a bucketful of weapons to get the mastery you want, tactically.
the shieldmaster feat allowing you to either push or prone, when combined with a push or prone weapon will allow both to be pretty much spammed provided you have a shield. As a whole, I think melee martials have been greatly improved due to their weapon masteries. ranged martials, the archers...not looking so hot. There's going to be a lot of push/proning going on with the new rules.
I do think that it's good that melee martials look much more interesting than they did before.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I agree that the space is exciting, if a little bit slower, but compared to casters should still be fast.
I think a lot of people are missing that a few ranged weapons qualify for Great Weapon Master’s extra damage - so they should be fine!
For example: https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/class-forums/fighter/203344-dnd-2024-fighter-build-thoughts
cool build!
Thanks!
Once this build reaches lv10 (Battering Roots) it may actually be worth switching to a Halberd and Dual Wielding for the extra attacks
I just want to point out that the no-save prone condition a Hill Goliath can induce is not at will, but limited to a number of time equal to his proficiency bonus per long rest.
The topple mastery is at will, but the enemy gets a save.
I wish they had changed prone to granting 1/2 cover vs ranged attacks instead of disadvantage, 1 its less crippling, 2 it gives feat options to work around it. 3. it makes sense, cover is based on you having less of the target visible to target, the same can be said for being prone when being shot at at range.
a small enough battlefield though the ranged player can run up get in melee and fire normally as the adv/dis of cover, firing in melee would cancel. Still, very irritating to ranged players if it happens often.
As an aside I do not apply disadvantage for all enemies who are prone, I'm sorry a ogre or giant being prone is not harder to hit at range, its the size of the proverbial barn.
This isn't At Will forever. They can only do this proficiency times per day.
Prone forces the enemy to shoot their ranged weapons at Disadvantage too and it's not like you're going to prone every creature on the battlefield.
And slowing down the game with melees forcing saves every round is a great idea too. We need less saves in general, not more.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha