I’m a firm believer that Berserker is one of the best subclasses of the Barbarian class, but I often see some pretty serious strawman arguments that seem to pop up relentlessly. I wanted to give a few pieces of “non-theorycrafting” advice from my experiences with my own berserker:
1) Feat Selection - I’m a firm believer that no Berserker should take GWM. The first point is now redundant (you’ll have the extra attack when you Frenzy) and the second one tapers off in effectiveness as your critical hits get bigger. So focus on getting more attacks per round: take Sentinel instead! You’re already a damage sponge, so if the enemies decide someone else is crunchier than you, you can up your potential attacks per round to 3 at level 5. After you get Retaliation you’re pretty much guaranteed 4 attacks every round.
2) Mindless Rage - I don’t care about spells so much as the number of creatures with some form of Terrifying Presence. An Adult Red Dragon with DC 19 Wis save is going to kick your regular Barb down for a lot of rounds without significant help.
3) Intimidating Presence - so basically, I can use this skill to give my opponent continual disadvantage on his attacks, still get a bonus action attack each round because of Frenzy, and get a second attack each round from Sentinel?
4) Exhaustion - every conversation about Berserkers comes down to Exhaustion. Theorycrafters love to expound on math formulae that show the declining returns and inevitable death of the Berserker as he uses Frenzy consistently every time he rages. It never happens like that in-game. Instead, the Berserker typically uses Frenzy once ( and twice on Sunday) each day. Just like your Paladin Super-Smites, it’s not something you waste on a bunch of kobolds. You wait until the BBEG shows up and go ham. Another even-bigger BBEG shows up after that? Go ham again! Another? Maybe just normal rage this time and then you’re on rationing duty for the next day or so. But at this point you’ve absolutely devastated two BBEGs and are now taking a few days off for rest.
In conclusion... it really is strange when people talk about the drawbacks of this subclass as a mathematical example. I’ve thoroughly enjoyed playing my Berserker - felt downright godlike when I needed to and in the rare situations where I over-stretched myself the opportunity to RP the fading-rage -monster was really fun! Hopefully this makes the class a little more palatable for some, or at least encourages someone to try playing one before they make judgments about their balance.
I think it's great that you like the Berserker subclass but many of us do not. I've played both a totem barbarian and a berserker (for just a few levels) and my opinion is the totem is far and away preferable. Why take GWM? Simple...because the bonus action attack does not have a horrible penalty to it and often comes into play during every combat. Mindless rage isn't a bad feature but Intimidating presence is based on charisma? The traditional dumpstat for a barbarian character? And the exhaustion aspect of frenzy is just miserable design. It regulates the berserker to a one trick pony. Doomed to shine oh so very briefly.
While playing your barbarian have you never wanted to use stealth or survival after a frenzy? What about making a perception check? For myself, I have and making all those checks with disadvantage sucks. It drains whatever satisfaction derived from using frenzy completely away. At least for me it did. Essentially a berserker becomes almost incapable of participating in the the game after a frenzy. Want to intimidate a guard? Persuade a merchant? Track the goblins to their hideout? All done with disadvantage. Meanwhile everyone else is playing the game.
Equating frenzy to a paladin smite is actually a good comparison. A paladin will most likely get several more smites than the barbarian will get extra attacks using frenzy but even IF they even out the paladin will not suffer with disadvantage to all his ability checks for the rest of the game day.
Sure some folks seem to like berserker. Not me. I'll take totem spirit or ancestral guardian over it any day of the week and twice on Sunday. I'll scoop up GWM and sentinel plus 4 levels of battlemaster fighter and at 9th level I'll take three attacks most rounds plus a few riposte or free reaction attacks with sentinel. After combat I'll let a berserker sit in a daze while I track whatever monster to it's lair, sneak past the guards, take its treasure, come back and watch over the berserker while he long rests since his perception will be crap.
Personally, I use Frenzy rather sparingly. It's great to have in your back pocket when you need to destroy something, but it does come with a heavy price. However, I think it's a fair price. Imagine the angriest you've ever been in your life. Now multiply that by 10. I think it should be accompanied by quite a bit of fatigue, especially if you are expending a great deal of physical energy along with that rage (ie combat). This is just my opinion, of course. Keep raging!
Thanks for the tips. I'm currently starting my very first adventure, and am running a half orc barbarian. Berserker is the only path which fits with the character I have in my head (right now, this may change before I have to choose), but all the bashing I see of it was offputting.
At the end of the day, I'm in this for the RP more than anything, but I don't want a "weak" character either. I chose Barbarian to be the complete opposite of myself, someone who breaks heads instead of thinking, and want to be effective at doing so. Your tips (and another couple of posts and articles I've read recently) make me feel less nervous about it, and more excited about the opportunities it affords.
1) GWM is meant to crank your DPR as high as it'll go; +10 damage on each of your swings is juicy and helps keep pace with fighters. The bonus action attack on crits is for when you aren't using frenzy, and even then it's better suited to champion fighters' Improved Critical.
2) I hear lots of people say that Mindless Rage is the real reason someone takes berserker as it's always on when you rage, regardless of Frenzy. It's definitely on par with many of the other rage-passives provided by other subtypes, and being charmed or frightened sucks. Many barbs take Resilient (Wisdom) for this, though berserkers can still use it against hold person.
3) Intimidating Presence can be useful in a social situation, as many NPCs that aren't spellcasters tend to have a mediocre wisdom saving throw. I'd compare this to totem barbarians having ritual spells but completely forgetting they have them.
4) Exhaustion is a notable thing to be concerned about, though there are ways to mitigate it. If you're expecting harsh weather (read: Icewind Dale), I'd recommend a goliath for their stats and ability to ignore cold weather or a dragonborn or tiefling for the appropriate resistances (with Tasha's Cauldron of Everything coming up, stats are free to change!)
1) GWM is meant to crank your DPR as high as it'll go; +10 damage on each of your swings is juicy and helps keep pace with fighters. The bonus action attack on crits is for when you aren't using frenzy, and even then it's better suited to champion fighters' Improved Critical.
Just worth noting, but GWM also lets you bonus action attack when you reduce a creature to 0 HP as well; this makes it ideal for getting multiple attacks against mobs of weaker enemies, which you usually won't want to use your Frenzied Rage against (it's best saved for boss monsters IMO). It's just an all-round great feat for any Barbarian thanks to Reckless Attacks, but for Berserkers it doesn't really compete with Frenzied Rage as such, it complements it really well though.
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1. I don't think anyone has proposed that Berserker's should take GWM to be good, just that any barbarian with that feat can keep up with the extra damage of a frenzy attack all the time without a long term downside using that feat.
2. This is a bit of a strawman to bring up, since most critiques of the Berserker are concerning Frenzy, not its 2 decent later abilities.
3. Intimidating Presence relies on charisma, basically a dump stat for Barbarians. Even if you throw a 12 into Charisma during character creation, this ability will realistically only work on fodder, and even then only at something like a 50/50 rate. Just making two swings and killing them usually makes way more sense.
4. If Berserkers are only supposed to use their frenzy once or twice a day, then they are already paying for using that ability by not having an always on 3rd level rage ability. Exhaustion just adds a punishment dynamic that is annoying if rationed properly.
And the smite comparison shows why frenzy is just too expensive: smite is an on hit choice, so it always pays off when it is used. Frenzy might result in getting no extra hits in during a fight, or at best 4 or 5 if the battle goes on for a full minute. And for that greater utility, the Paladin just uses up a resource, rather than taking on a debuff.
And even if you like the idea of a punishment mechanic that reflects the self-destructive nature of berserkers, slowly dying from exhaustion just doesn't reflect that. You aren't level breaking like some anime character who risks their life in return for some amazing power, you're just working too hard over the course of days and weeks like someone who can't stand up to an abusive manager making them work overtime every day. Its just sad, not cool or dramatic.
And actually dying from exhaustion itself is pretty hard. its easy to be killed as a result of levels 3-5 by enemies as you become more and more useless, but surviving to kill yourself with that last level of exhaustion as you flop on the ground unable to move or hit anything is a totally lame, self-inflicted death.
1. I don't think anyone has proposed that Berserker's should take GWM to be good, just that any barbarian with that feat can keep up with the extra damage of a frenzy attack all the time without a long term downside using that feat.
This claim doesn't make any sense; GWM can only provide a bonus action every turn if you're attacking a sufficiently weak mob such that you can kill at least one per turn and still have something else within reach, which is precisely the kind of situation in which a Berserker would prefer to not use Frenzied Rage unless they have no other choice. Frenzied Rage is best used against boss monsters, against which GWM can't guarantee extra attacks (you can't rely on getting a critical hit every turn); so your non-Berserker with GWM can maybe make the same number of attacks as a Berserker with GWM against mobs, but the Berserker is still better against boss monsters where they can cast "convert into fine mist" (frenzy + reckless + GWM).
3. Intimidating Presence relies on charisma, basically a dump stat for Barbarians. Even if you throw a 12 into Charisma during character creation, this ability will realistically only work on fodder, and even then only at something like a 50/50 rate. Just making two swings and killing them usually makes way more sense.
It's not a dump stat if you want to use regular Intimidation; while Strength and Constitution are important to a Barbarian, you don't actually need to maximise them as fast as possible, as you get bonus damage and take less damage just by using Rage, and can use Reckless Attack to get your hits in.
Intimidating Presence is best used when you can combo with another player to improve the chances of success, same as with similar spells; an extra point or two in DC is nice, but a penalty to the enemy is usually better.
4. If Berserkers are only supposed to use their frenzy once or twice a day, then they are already paying for using that ability by not having an always on 3rd level rage ability.
It's as "always on" as you're willing or able to make it; this has been covered to death already, but if you made Frenzied Rage limited use like other abilities, then where do you set it? Once? Twice? That just ends up robbing the Berserker of the choice to use it more, while higher is OP. The Exhaustion mechanic is there for a reason, as it allows the Berserker to pay a steeper price if they want to to use frenzied rage more than they normally should.
The idea that other sub-classes' 3rd level abilities are magically better because they apply to every rage is silly; the Berserker's ability does more damage in a short burst than a Zealot's can, that's the entire point of it. If you want a constant damage bonus over an entire day, go the Zealot, if you want to deal more damage in a big boss fight, go the Berserker.
And the smite comparison shows why frenzy is just too expensive: smite is an on hit choice, so it always pays off when it is used. Frenzy might result in getting no extra hits in during a fight, or at best 4 or 5 if the battle goes on for a full minute. And for that greater utility, the Paladin just uses up a resource, rather than taking on a debuff.
This is another claim that makes no sense; if you're assuming comparable circumstances then a Paladin who doesn't hit anything never gets to use Divine Smite, holding onto some spell slots isn't going to be much comfort if you fail to kill an enemy and it wipes out your party instead.
A Berserker can use Reckless attacks if they need to get their hits in (and really it's ideal for Frenzied Rage anyway) making that three attacks with advantage versus two without; the paladin can throw smite onto some of their two over time, the Berserker might be hitting with all of theirs, both dealing a bunch of damage, and that's without factoring in all the other class differences.
Please don't come into yet another thread with a load of absurdly stacked comparisons. Berserkers do what they're supposed to do, which is wood-chipper their way through boss fights while shrugging off damage. Then need a nap afterwards.
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1. I don't think anyone has proposed that Berserker's should take GWM to be good, just that any barbarian with that feat can keep up with the extra damage of a frenzy attack all the time without a long term downside using that feat.
2. This is a bit of a strawman to bring up, since most critiques of the Berserker are concerning Frenzy, not its 2 decent later abilities.
3. Intimidating Presence relies on charisma, basically a dump stat for Barbarians. Even if you throw a 12 into Charisma during character creation, this ability will realistically only work on fodder, and even then only at something like a 50/50 rate. Just making two swings and killing them usually makes way more sense.
4. If Berserkers are only supposed to use their frenzy once or twice a day, then they are already paying for using that ability by not having an always on 3rd level rage ability. Exhaustion just adds a punishment dynamic that is annoying if rationed properly.
And the smite comparison shows why frenzy is just too expensive: smite is an on hit choice, so it always pays off when it is used. Frenzy might result in getting no extra hits in during a fight, or at best 4 or 5 if the battle goes on for a full minute. And for that greater utility, the Paladin just uses up a resource, rather than taking on a debuff.
And even if you like the idea of a punishment mechanic that reflects the self-destructive nature of berserkers, slowly dying from exhaustion just doesn't reflect that. You aren't level breaking like some anime character who risks their life in return for some amazing power, you're just working too hard over the course of days and weeks like someone who can't stand up to an abusive manager making them work overtime every day. Its just sad, not cool or dramatic.
And actually dying from exhaustion itself is pretty hard. its easy to be killed as a result of levels 3-5 by enemies as you become more and more useless, but surviving to kill yourself with that last level of exhaustion as you flop on the ground unable to move or hit anything is a totally lame, self-inflicted death.
1) I think you both are misunderstanding the point of the feat and how it ties into the action economy. The additional attack is great against weaker mobs without consuming the berserker's Frenzy. The added +10 damage on every hit is a solid DPR boost. Frenzy is for things that won't go down in one or two hits.
2) It's not a straw man to bring up Mindless Rage. Too many people focus on the imaginary shortcomings of Frenzy that they ignore any conversation about the other traits. It bears mentioning.
3) Maybe the character in question only has a +1 modifier and maybe they don't. It could be higher, from rolling ability scores, or a half-elf using the standard array. But let's assume it is and the DC is only...13. Yeah, that may not be too high. It won't work on every foe, but it might work on some. And an ally with bane can always increase the odds of success. And, as someone else pointed out above, it can also serve another purpose. Intimidating Presence gives the berserker something they can do out of combat, too. Your stats are always going to limit you in some way, no matter how high they are. Don't let a "low" (but still above-average) score stop you from even trying.
4) Every 3rd-level Primal Path feature in the PHB that is "always on" isn't actually always on. Three of the five [total] Totem Spirits are passives. Bear only applies if you take damage from one of the additional types you're protected against, and wolf only applies if allies are fighting with you in melee. And everything else is tied to movement in some way, so you have to move for it to matter.
Frenzy is ludicrously powerful. No other class can get a second full weapon attack at 3rd-level with a versatile or two-handed weapon. With Frenzy, a berserker is, conservatively, rolling for 21 (2d12 + 8) per round once they get going. The only other builds that even comes close is the battle master, blowing 2/4 superiority dice while two-weapon fighting, and a paladin, using their divine smite. Without feats, they average 20 (2d6 + 4 + 2d8) damage; assuming two scimitars or shortswords for the fighter and a greatsword or maul for the paladin. But it's short-term burst damage. It's not sustainable. The berserker can do it for 9 whole rounds, and they can give themselves advantage to increase their odds of hitting. And those differences only become more pronounced as time goes on.
The exhaustion isn't a punishment. It's a balancing mechanic. There's just no way they can, or should, Frenzy all day long. There needs to be a drawback.
1) I think you both are misunderstanding the point of the feat and how it ties into the action economy. The additional attack is great against weaker mobs without consuming the berserker's Frenzy. The added +10 damage on every hit is a solid DPR boost. Frenzy is for things that won't go down in one or two hits.
This is true, and its totally valid to take GWM on a Berserker for increased damage. It just isn't necessary to make frenzy good while its online, and any barbarian can benefit from it.
2) It's not a straw man to bring up Mindless Rage. Too many people focus on the imaginary shortcomings of Frenzy that they ignore any conversation about the other traits. It bears mentioning.
Later abilities do not replace the main archetypal ability. Mindless Rage is good; great, abilities gained at higher levels should feel like rewards! But if we have to go to other abilities to justify Frenzy's shortcomings, then we aren't really talking about the flaws of the ability you'll have in your toy box for most of the campaign.
3) Maybe the character in question only has a +1 modifier and maybe they don't. It could be higher, from rolling ability scores, or a half-elf using the standard array. But let's assume it is and the DC is only...13. Yeah, that may not be too high. It won't work on every foe, but it might work on some. And an ally with bane can always increase the odds of success. And, as someone else pointed out above, it can also serve another purpose. Intimidating Presence gives the berserker something they can do out of combat, too. Your stats are always going to limit you in some way, no matter how high they are. Don't let a "low" (but still above-average) score stop you from even trying.
Again, all true points. Its an interesting idea for a 10th level ability, and better than just getting nothing. But it could have been made more useful so it can really compete with two swings of your Maul or Battleaxe as an option.
4) Every 3rd-level Primal Path feature in the PHB that is "always on" isn't actually always on. Three of the five [total] Totem Spirits are passives. Bear only applies if you take damage from one of the additional types you're protected against, and wolf only applies if allies are fighting with you in melee. And everything else is tied to movement in some way, so you have to move for it to matter.
Yeah, not all of the totem warrior choices are great. But none of them punish you for using them.
Also, giving melee allies advantage at all times or halving the damage from anything but psychic damage? Those are incredibly strong.
Frenzy is ludicrously powerful. No other class can get a second full weapon attack at 3rd-level with a versatile or two-handed weapon. With Frenzy, a berserker is, conservatively, rolling for 21 (2d12 + 8) per round once they get going. The only other builds that even comes close is the battle master, blowing 2/4 superiority dice while two-weapon fighting, and a paladin, using their divine smite. Without feats, they average 20 (2d6 + 4 + 2d8) damage; assuming two scimitars or shortswords for the fighter and a greatsword or maul for the paladin. But it's short-term burst damage. It's not sustainable. The berserker can do it for 9 whole rounds, and they can give themselves advantage to increase their odds of hitting. And those differences only become more pronounced as time goes on.
Frenzy is just one extra full attack. yes, its strong, but as you point out, not totally out of bounds for martial classes. If Frenzy was just on all the time during rages, Berserker would just always be the biggest damage dealer of a barbarian hands down. That would probably over-correct frenzy's limits.
The exhaustion isn't a punishment. It's a balancing mechanic. There's just no way they can, or should, Frenzy all day long. There needs to be a drawback.
This is the biggest misconception I keep seeing. Exhaustion isn't a balancing mechanic. Every other ability in the game that is meant to be limited in use has a balanced system for use: they just have a limited pool of uses per long rest. If Frenzy is just meant to be used once or twice a day, that is all that would have been needed. The number of uses could start at one and scale slowly, like the fighter's action surge.
Exhaustion attached to Frenzy is just forcing the player to accept that limited pool of uses, but with extra punishment. It was a stylistic choice, not a mechanical one.
1) GWM is meant to crank your DPR as high as it'll go; +10 damage on each of your swings is juicy and helps keep pace with fighters. The bonus action attack on crits is for when you aren't using frenzy, and even then it's better suited to champion fighters' Improved Critical.
Just worth noting, but GWM also lets you bonus action attack when you reduce a creature to 0 HP as well; this makes it ideal for getting multiple attacks against mobs of weaker enemies, which you usually won't want to use your Frenzied Rage against (it's best saved for boss monsters IMO). It's just an all-round great feat for any Barbarian thanks to Reckless Attacks, but for Berserkers it doesn't really compete with Frenzied Rage as such, it complements it really well though.
One thing that's nice about Berserker in regards to GWM (or Polearm Master) is that it allows for the bonus action attack without using up a feat or boxing you into a certain weapon. I'm rolling a zealot barbarian who took GWM at 4th and got Hew within a short time after. While the bonus action from GWM can apply to Hew, the power attack cannot. As a Berseker, I could have chosen a different feat or taken Strength, still had the Bonus Action when I wanted it and had full benefit of the magic weapon and potentially the ASI (depending on what I chose instead). As was pointed out, going Berserker and GWM means that the Bonus Actions appear more frequently, but will always occur when they are most wanted.
The freedom to maximize the action economy without being pigeonholed into feat choices is nice. Berserker still plays nice with GWM and Polearm Master but neither is required to increase options. It looks redundant when two ways of getting a bonus action are available and people looking to make a one size fits all strategy that has all of the abilities from every source stack on each other won't appreciate it nor will people who don't appreciate being able to do several things with the same equipment load out.
As for not being able to use your third level ability (that may have been from a different post than the quoted one), I just went through Cragmaw Castle and only used one rage. That was the only time that I used my third level ability at all. The entire rest of the dungeon, I was as without my bonus damage from Zealot as I would have been with berserker. If I can make that choice and not feel bad about it, then a Berserker can make the same choice while raging and not feel bad about it.
This claim doesn't make any sense; GWM can only provide a bonus action every turn if you're attacking a sufficiently weak mob such that you can kill at least one per turn and still have something else within reach, which is precisely the kind of situation in which a Berserker would prefer to not use Frenzied Rage unless they have no other choice. Frenzied Rage is best used against boss monsters, against which GWM can't guarantee extra attacks (you can't rely on getting a critical hit every turn); so your non-Berserker with GWM can maybe make the same number of attacks as a Berserker with GWM against mobs, but the Berserker is still better against boss monsters where they can cast "convert into fine mist" (frenzy + reckless + GWM).
Im more pointing to the +10 damage that the feat allows. A non-berserker Barbarian with GWM and reckless attack can do comparable damage to a frenzied berserker, but without being limited in uses per day (aside from rage). A berserker could also benefit from GWM and up their damage even more during their frenzy.
The extra attack for killing an enemy or crits won't be as consistent as frenzy, but then frenzy isn't constantly available or used in every fight.
It's not a dump stat if you want to use regular Intimidation; while Strength and Constitution are important to a Barbarian, you don't actually need to maximise them as fast as possible, as you get bonus damage and take less damage just by using Rage, and can use Reckless Attack to get your hits in.
Yeah, you could rearrange your whole build for roleplay and to get greater utility out of the one ability you get that uses charisma all the way at level 10. But if we are going to go to that much trouble, its probably going to be a forgotten ability for most berserkers. Its just odd and less useful than it should be. Especially when Barbarians already have Strength, Con, and Dex begging for their points from their main class.
Also, I thought you told me not to theory craft cherry picked scenarios where something is useful/not useful... exactly like waiting until an ally uses bane to make Intimidating Presence not be a waste of an action?
but if you made Frenzied Rage limited use like other abilities, then where do you set it?
If you're only meant to use it once or twice mechanically (since exhaustion makes 3 uses self defeating, with the disadvantage on attacks)... well its not rocket science to say 1 use per 2 rages in the rage pool.
Yeah, the player loses the choice to use it more and make their character a debilitated mess... but you've told me several times that isn't how you're supposed to play Berserker. And the option to make my character lose half their health or be unable to move are just garbage choices. If a player really just wants to "choose" exhaustion, they are free to skip long rests until they obtain it.
The idea that other sub-classes' 3rd level abilities are magically better because they apply to every rage is silly; the Berserker's ability does more damage in a short burst than a Zealot's can, that's the entire point of it.
Right, that is the point. Which is good logic to a limited number of uses per long rest, not using exhaustion levels to create the same limit but with annoying passive debuffs added in.
This is another claim that makes no sense; if you're assuming comparable circumstances then a Paladin who doesn't hit anything never gets to use Divine Smite, holding onto some spell slots isn't going to be much comfort if you fail to kill an enemy and it wipes out your party instead.
The Paladin only has to hit once to get off a smite, and never self-inflicts a debuff to do so. Im just assuming that even a fight with a BBEG won't go on a full 9 rounds. If it goes on for 6 rounds, and the berserker gets to use their frenzied attack every round, they don't automatically get 6 attacks to land. Its good, but its not outrageously unbalanced even for the one fight you save your frenzy for, since its still in the bounds of what other martial classes can do, albeit in the top tier.
Its weird to keep hearing that frenzy is both outrageously powerful, but that its also balanced to just not use it most of the campaign to ration exhaustion levels. I'd expect more bang for the buck if it really needs all that to be balanced.
A better comparison might be to action surge: at level 11, a fighter is generally getting as many extra attacks as a frenzied barbarian can expect to, but they get that after every short rest with no additional downside. And it only gets more ridiculous for them from there on. You never get more uses of frenzy beyond the hard limit imposed by exhaustion.
Please don't come into yet another thread with a load of absurdly stacked comparisons. Berserkers do what they're supposed to do, which is wood-chipper their way through boss fights while shrugging off damage. Then need a nap afterwards.
Can I actually hold you to that being "what they are supposed to do" though? You've already bounced back and forth between that and "but players need to have the choice of slow suicide by exhaustion!" Is one or two uses a day enough and what is designed to happen, or isn't it?
Later abilities do not replace the main archetypal ability. Mindless Rage is good; great, abilities gained at higher levels should feel like rewards! But if we have to go to other abilities to justify Frenzy's shortcomings, then we aren't really talking about the flaws of the ability you'll have in your toy box for most of the campaign.
I think it's a fallacy to say the first archetypal ability is the main one. They're all important. That said, Frenzy's shortcomings are something of a matter of perspective. In a pure DPR race, the Divine Fury bequeathed from the Path of the Zealot begins to outpace Frenzy at 9th-level. This assumption is also based on two factors: both barbarians are using their starting equipment package and no magic items are being used. Any weapon which adds additional damage dice (e.g. flame tongue) gives the berserker the edge. Enemy resistances and immunities notwithstanding, whichever one is "better" depends on the enemies being faces and the magic items available.
Yeah, not all of the totem warrior choices are great. But none of them punish you for using them.
Also, giving melee allies advantage at all times or halving the damage from anything but psychic damage? Those are incredibly strong.
You may not think they're all "great", but none of them are bad, either. They're all situational. The bear totem's resistance, in particular, only matters when you face those damage types. The rest of the time it's useless.
Frenzy is just one extra full attack. yes, its strong, but as you point out, not totally out of bounds for martial classes. If Frenzy was just on all the time during rages, Berserker would just always be the biggest damage dealer of a barbarian hands down. That would probably over-correct frenzy's limits.
It beats the pants off of most other martial classes. Only the paladin can reliably get higher damage with anything approaching efficiency. It's also a fallacy to compare martial classes to one another. They're deliberately not balanced against one another. But the subclasses within a particular class are.
This is the biggest misconception I keep seeing. Exhaustion isn't a balancing mechanic. Every other ability in the game that is meant to be limited in use has a balanced system for use: they just have a limited pool of uses per long rest. If Frenzy is just meant to be used once or twice a day, that is all that would have been needed. The number of uses could start at one and scale slowly, like the fighter's action surge.
Exhaustion attached to Frenzy is just forcing the player to accept that limited pool of uses, but with extra punishment. It was a stylistic choice, not a mechanical one.
So then why aren't you asking the all-important question: why? Why did the designers decide to do this? What was their goal? And cynically saying they want to punish players isn't the answer. It looks to me, to a lot of people, like a pretty decent Risk/Reward system. And it empowers the player to decide how much they want to risk. One level of exhaustion isn't a big deal; disadvantage on ability checks isn't likely to be a real problem unless the berserker is on their own. Two levels can be, but they're still moving up to 20 ft. per round.
And just adding a limited number of times per day isn't going to keep that idea alive. Barbarians already can only rage a few times per day. They already have a built-in mechanic with a limited resource, and you want to make them track two of them? Exhaustion may not be perfect, but it's not terrible. And you don't have to keep going into threads to dump on a subclass you don't like.
I think it's a fallacy to say the first archetypal ability is the main one.
Its the ability you get that signifies getting the subclass. Its the one you have for as long as you have the subclass. Its meant to be archetypal. No one only thinks of a subclass as being defined by their second class ability.
You may not think they're all "great", but none of them are bad, either.
I never said they were.
The bear totem's resistance, in particular, only matters when you face those damage types. The rest of the time it's useless.
Pays off big dividends when you are facing anything in the monster manual that doesn't just hit you. Slimes, dragons, spellcasters, etc.
It beats the pants off of most other martial classes.
Only for the one fight where you use it, and not to an extreme degree. Everyone else will also be pulling out the stops. The fighter will be using their action surge for 2 or 3 extra attacks (potentially just as many as I'd get out of my frenzied barbarian). And after a short rest, he can do it again.
It's also a fallacy to compare martial classes to one another.
Yes and no? Classes do specifically different tasks, but there is a sense of balance in their utility. No class is supposed to just be automatically better at everything.
So then why aren't you asking the all-important question: why?
I did, and I answered it: it was a stylistic choice when 5e was new. They were trying to do something different from just having a limited number of uses, and realized that basically nothing in base 5e actually made use of the exhaustion levels, so they thought it would be cool while replicating just having a limited pool of uses. It wasn't play tested enough to realize that its just annoying rather than risky and cool.
And Barbarians keeping track of two resource pools is too much? Unlike other classes keeping track of spell slots, channel divinity, prepared spells, race specific one use spells, etc? Please.
I'd akin some of the Basic Rules subclasses to be comparable to most of the SCAG subclasses: neat in concepts, but ultimately a bunch of flops. Berserker is definitely among those due to the exhaustion mechanic.
Only a couple of subclass features have some sort of cost, another being the Evocation Wizard's Overchannel, which is also in the BR (although they still get one free use and lost hit points are easy to heal away by that point). This is likely because WotC realised that downsides steer players away from those options.
Are Berserkers bad? No, definitely not. Could they have been better? Yes. Will WotC fix them? No, their design philosophy has them focus on new stuff (sorry PHB rangers, no subclass spells). Can your DM make the changes for you? It's possible, so check in with them.
Comparing one ability to another is not how games have ever been balanced. And especially true with DnD, where are classes and subclasses are balanced by separate formulae. It’s shortsighted to compare one ability to any other one ability and ignore all the rest.
But all of this back and forth is frustrating - you can keep arguing all you want about a singular ability and the other side will look at class design in its entirety. Next up, compare Immunity to Fear and Charm vs any of the other Barbarian Level 6 Features, that all fall painfully short of expectations. In fact, one could say, looking at just level 6 features, the Berserker Barbarian is the only well-designed class and the rest are terrible.
Also: @Kronzypants, why not keep the arguments about whether Berserker was good or not in the existing “Berserker sucks” thread and keep this to the topic of “Berserker Advice”, rather than rehashing the same argument here?
I think it's great that you like the Berserker subclass but many of us do not. I've played both a totem barbarian and a berserker (for just a few levels) and my opinion is the totem is far and away preferable. Why take GWM? Simple...because the bonus action attack does not have a horrible penalty to it and often comes into play during every combat. Mindless rage isn't a bad feature but Intimidating presence is based on charisma? The traditional dumpstat for a barbarian character? And the exhaustion aspect of frenzy is just miserable design. It regulates the berserker to a one trick pony. Doomed to shine oh so very briefly.
While playing your barbarian have you never wanted to use stealth or survival after a frenzy? What about making a perception check? For myself, I have and making all those checks with disadvantage sucks. It drains whatever satisfaction derived from using frenzy completely away. At least for me it did. Essentially a berserker becomes almost incapable of participating in the the game after a frenzy. Want to intimidate a guard? Persuade a merchant? Track the goblins to their hideout? All done with disadvantage. Meanwhile everyone else is playing the game.
Equating frenzy to a paladin smite is actually a good comparison. A paladin will most likely get several more smites than the barbarian will get extra attacks using frenzy but even IF they even out the paladin will not suffer with disadvantage to all his ability checks for the rest of the game day.
Sure some folks seem to like berserker. Not me. I'll take totem spirit or ancestral guardian over it any day of the week and twice on Sunday. I'll scoop up GWM and sentinel plus 4 levels of battlemaster fighter and at 9th level I'll take three attacks most rounds plus a few riposte or free reaction attacks with sentinel. After combat I'll let a berserker sit in a daze while I track whatever monster to it's lair, sneak past the guards, take its treasure, come back and watch over the berserker while he long rests since his perception will be crap.
All bad advice for a Berserker player unfortunately.
A Berserker doesn’t fully come online until higher levels. So the comparison of Barbarians at lower levels is irrelevant.
At level 4, take Sentinel to utilize your reactions and improve your attacks to 3 per round, and 4 per round after you get Extra Attack. Beyond that, feats at later levels will be mostly ASIs for Str, Con, and Cha. I suggest boosting Charisma a bit at least, because Intimidating Presence can essentially nullify an opponent entirely while your team dispatches the goons. Nullifying a creature’s movement indefinitely and without a negating save is incredibly powerful. This combines especially well with Retalition later.
Better yet, wield a shield instead of a two handed weapon. This way, when you don’t reckless you’ll be a better tank than most other Barbs when you need to - push the extra damage when you need it. Your main weapon should be a 10ft reach weapon - this means your Intimidating Presence can keep them at 10ft so they can’t move.
As before, save your Frenzy for the BBEG, you won’t need to make many checks past that point. Besides, you’re likely rolling advantage on the checks that matter for a Barbarian (Athletics during rage), so it only reduces you to a normal roll.
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I’m a firm believer that Berserker is one of the best subclasses of the Barbarian class, but I often see some pretty serious strawman arguments that seem to pop up relentlessly. I wanted to give a few pieces of “non-theorycrafting” advice from my experiences with my own berserker:
1) Feat Selection - I’m a firm believer that no Berserker should take GWM. The first point is now redundant (you’ll have the extra attack when you Frenzy) and the second one tapers off in effectiveness as your critical hits get bigger. So focus on getting more attacks per round: take Sentinel instead! You’re already a damage sponge, so if the enemies decide someone else is crunchier than you, you can up your potential attacks per round to 3 at level 5. After you get Retaliation you’re pretty much guaranteed 4 attacks every round.
2) Mindless Rage - I don’t care about spells so much as the number of creatures with some form of Terrifying Presence. An Adult Red Dragon with DC 19 Wis save is going to kick your regular Barb down for a lot of rounds without significant help.
3) Intimidating Presence - so basically, I can use this skill to give my opponent continual disadvantage on his attacks, still get a bonus action attack each round because of Frenzy, and get a second attack each round from Sentinel?
4) Exhaustion - every conversation about Berserkers comes down to Exhaustion. Theorycrafters love to expound on math formulae that show the declining returns and inevitable death of the Berserker as he uses Frenzy consistently every time he rages. It never happens like that in-game. Instead, the Berserker typically uses Frenzy once ( and twice on Sunday) each day. Just like your Paladin Super-Smites, it’s not something you waste on a bunch of kobolds. You wait until the BBEG shows up and go ham. Another even-bigger BBEG shows up after that? Go ham again! Another? Maybe just normal rage this time and then you’re on rationing duty for the next day or so. But at this point you’ve absolutely devastated two BBEGs and are now taking a few days off for rest.
In conclusion... it really is strange when people talk about the drawbacks of this subclass as a mathematical example. I’ve thoroughly enjoyed playing my Berserker - felt downright godlike when I needed to and in the rare situations where I over-stretched myself the opportunity to RP the fading-rage -monster was really fun! Hopefully this makes the class a little more palatable for some, or at least encourages someone to try playing one before they make judgments about their balance.
thank you for putting this into the world, but the title is kinda misleading
I did NOT eat those hikers.
Solid post
I don't have a berserker but I had suspicions about how they were viewed.
Thanks
Jesus Saves!... Everyone else takes damage.
I think it's great that you like the Berserker subclass but many of us do not. I've played both a totem barbarian and a berserker (for just a few levels) and my opinion is the totem is far and away preferable. Why take GWM? Simple...because the bonus action attack does not have a horrible penalty to it and often comes into play during every combat. Mindless rage isn't a bad feature but Intimidating presence is based on charisma? The traditional dumpstat for a barbarian character? And the exhaustion aspect of frenzy is just miserable design. It regulates the berserker to a one trick pony. Doomed to shine oh so very briefly.
While playing your barbarian have you never wanted to use stealth or survival after a frenzy? What about making a perception check? For myself, I have and making all those checks with disadvantage sucks. It drains whatever satisfaction derived from using frenzy completely away. At least for me it did. Essentially a berserker becomes almost incapable of participating in the the game after a frenzy. Want to intimidate a guard? Persuade a merchant? Track the goblins to their hideout? All done with disadvantage. Meanwhile everyone else is playing the game.
Equating frenzy to a paladin smite is actually a good comparison. A paladin will most likely get several more smites than the barbarian will get extra attacks using frenzy but even IF they even out the paladin will not suffer with disadvantage to all his ability checks for the rest of the game day.
Sure some folks seem to like berserker. Not me. I'll take totem spirit or ancestral guardian over it any day of the week and twice on Sunday. I'll scoop up GWM and sentinel plus 4 levels of battlemaster fighter and at 9th level I'll take three attacks most rounds plus a few riposte or free reaction attacks with sentinel. After combat I'll let a berserker sit in a daze while I track whatever monster to it's lair, sneak past the guards, take its treasure, come back and watch over the berserker while he long rests since his perception will be crap.
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Personally, I use Frenzy rather sparingly. It's great to have in your back pocket when you need to destroy something, but it does come with a heavy price. However, I think it's a fair price. Imagine the angriest you've ever been in your life. Now multiply that by 10. I think it should be accompanied by quite a bit of fatigue, especially if you are expending a great deal of physical energy along with that rage (ie combat). This is just my opinion, of course. Keep raging!
Thanks for the tips. I'm currently starting my very first adventure, and am running a half orc barbarian. Berserker is the only path which fits with the character I have in my head (right now, this may change before I have to choose), but all the bashing I see of it was offputting.
At the end of the day, I'm in this for the RP more than anything, but I don't want a "weak" character either. I chose Barbarian to be the complete opposite of myself, someone who breaks heads instead of thinking, and want to be effective at doing so. Your tips (and another couple of posts and articles I've read recently) make me feel less nervous about it, and more excited about the opportunities it affords.
1) GWM is meant to crank your DPR as high as it'll go; +10 damage on each of your swings is juicy and helps keep pace with fighters. The bonus action attack on crits is for when you aren't using frenzy, and even then it's better suited to champion fighters' Improved Critical.
2) I hear lots of people say that Mindless Rage is the real reason someone takes berserker as it's always on when you rage, regardless of Frenzy. It's definitely on par with many of the other rage-passives provided by other subtypes, and being charmed or frightened sucks. Many barbs take Resilient (Wisdom) for this, though berserkers can still use it against hold person.
3) Intimidating Presence can be useful in a social situation, as many NPCs that aren't spellcasters tend to have a mediocre wisdom saving throw. I'd compare this to totem barbarians having ritual spells but completely forgetting they have them.
4) Exhaustion is a notable thing to be concerned about, though there are ways to mitigate it. If you're expecting harsh weather (read: Icewind Dale), I'd recommend a goliath for their stats and ability to ignore cold weather or a dragonborn or tiefling for the appropriate resistances (with Tasha's Cauldron of Everything coming up, stats are free to change!)
Just worth noting, but GWM also lets you bonus action attack when you reduce a creature to 0 HP as well; this makes it ideal for getting multiple attacks against mobs of weaker enemies, which you usually won't want to use your Frenzied Rage against (it's best saved for boss monsters IMO). It's just an all-round great feat for any Barbarian thanks to Reckless Attacks, but for Berserkers it doesn't really compete with Frenzied Rage as such, it complements it really well though.
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1. I don't think anyone has proposed that Berserker's should take GWM to be good, just that any barbarian with that feat can keep up with the extra damage of a frenzy attack all the time without a long term downside using that feat.
2. This is a bit of a strawman to bring up, since most critiques of the Berserker are concerning Frenzy, not its 2 decent later abilities.
3. Intimidating Presence relies on charisma, basically a dump stat for Barbarians. Even if you throw a 12 into Charisma during character creation, this ability will realistically only work on fodder, and even then only at something like a 50/50 rate. Just making two swings and killing them usually makes way more sense.
4. If Berserkers are only supposed to use their frenzy once or twice a day, then they are already paying for using that ability by not having an always on 3rd level rage ability. Exhaustion just adds a punishment dynamic that is annoying if rationed properly.
And the smite comparison shows why frenzy is just too expensive: smite is an on hit choice, so it always pays off when it is used. Frenzy might result in getting no extra hits in during a fight, or at best 4 or 5 if the battle goes on for a full minute. And for that greater utility, the Paladin just uses up a resource, rather than taking on a debuff.
And even if you like the idea of a punishment mechanic that reflects the self-destructive nature of berserkers, slowly dying from exhaustion just doesn't reflect that. You aren't level breaking like some anime character who risks their life in return for some amazing power, you're just working too hard over the course of days and weeks like someone who can't stand up to an abusive manager making them work overtime every day. Its just sad, not cool or dramatic.
And actually dying from exhaustion itself is pretty hard. its easy to be killed as a result of levels 3-5 by enemies as you become more and more useless, but surviving to kill yourself with that last level of exhaustion as you flop on the ground unable to move or hit anything is a totally lame, self-inflicted death.
This claim doesn't make any sense; GWM can only provide a bonus action every turn if you're attacking a sufficiently weak mob such that you can kill at least one per turn and still have something else within reach, which is precisely the kind of situation in which a Berserker would prefer to not use Frenzied Rage unless they have no other choice. Frenzied Rage is best used against boss monsters, against which GWM can't guarantee extra attacks (you can't rely on getting a critical hit every turn); so your non-Berserker with GWM can maybe make the same number of attacks as a Berserker with GWM against mobs, but the Berserker is still better against boss monsters where they can cast "convert into fine mist" (frenzy + reckless + GWM).
It's not a dump stat if you want to use regular Intimidation; while Strength and Constitution are important to a Barbarian, you don't actually need to maximise them as fast as possible, as you get bonus damage and take less damage just by using Rage, and can use Reckless Attack to get your hits in.
Intimidating Presence is best used when you can combo with another player to improve the chances of success, same as with similar spells; an extra point or two in DC is nice, but a penalty to the enemy is usually better.
It's as "always on" as you're willing or able to make it; this has been covered to death already, but if you made Frenzied Rage limited use like other abilities, then where do you set it? Once? Twice? That just ends up robbing the Berserker of the choice to use it more, while higher is OP. The Exhaustion mechanic is there for a reason, as it allows the Berserker to pay a steeper price if they want to to use frenzied rage more than they normally should.
The idea that other sub-classes' 3rd level abilities are magically better because they apply to every rage is silly; the Berserker's ability does more damage in a short burst than a Zealot's can, that's the entire point of it. If you want a constant damage bonus over an entire day, go the Zealot, if you want to deal more damage in a big boss fight, go the Berserker.
This is another claim that makes no sense; if you're assuming comparable circumstances then a Paladin who doesn't hit anything never gets to use Divine Smite, holding onto some spell slots isn't going to be much comfort if you fail to kill an enemy and it wipes out your party instead.
A Berserker can use Reckless attacks if they need to get their hits in (and really it's ideal for Frenzied Rage anyway) making that three attacks with advantage versus two without; the paladin can throw smite onto some of their two over time, the Berserker might be hitting with all of theirs, both dealing a bunch of damage, and that's without factoring in all the other class differences.
Please don't come into yet another thread with a load of absurdly stacked comparisons. Berserkers do what they're supposed to do, which is wood-chipper their way through boss fights while shrugging off damage. Then need a nap afterwards.
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1) I think you both are misunderstanding the point of the feat and how it ties into the action economy. The additional attack is great against weaker mobs without consuming the berserker's Frenzy. The added +10 damage on every hit is a solid DPR boost. Frenzy is for things that won't go down in one or two hits.
2) It's not a straw man to bring up Mindless Rage. Too many people focus on the imaginary shortcomings of Frenzy that they ignore any conversation about the other traits. It bears mentioning.
3) Maybe the character in question only has a +1 modifier and maybe they don't. It could be higher, from rolling ability scores, or a half-elf using the standard array. But let's assume it is and the DC is only...13. Yeah, that may not be too high. It won't work on every foe, but it might work on some. And an ally with bane can always increase the odds of success.
And, as someone else pointed out above, it can also serve another purpose. Intimidating Presence gives the berserker something they can do out of combat, too. Your stats are always going to limit you in some way, no matter how high they are. Don't let a "low" (but still above-average) score stop you from even trying.
4) Every 3rd-level Primal Path feature in the PHB that is "always on" isn't actually always on. Three of the five [total] Totem Spirits are passives. Bear only applies if you take damage from one of the additional types you're protected against, and wolf only applies if allies are fighting with you in melee. And everything else is tied to movement in some way, so you have to move for it to matter.
Frenzy is ludicrously powerful. No other class can get a second full weapon attack at 3rd-level with a versatile or two-handed weapon. With Frenzy, a berserker is, conservatively, rolling for 21 (2d12 + 8) per round once they get going. The only other builds that even comes close is the battle master, blowing 2/4 superiority dice while two-weapon fighting, and a paladin, using their divine smite. Without feats, they average 20 (2d6 + 4 + 2d8) damage; assuming two scimitars or shortswords for the fighter and a greatsword or maul for the paladin. But it's short-term burst damage. It's not sustainable. The berserker can do it for 9 whole rounds, and they can give themselves advantage to increase their odds of hitting. And those differences only become more pronounced as time goes on.
The exhaustion isn't a punishment. It's a balancing mechanic. There's just no way they can, or should, Frenzy all day long. There needs to be a drawback.
This is true, and its totally valid to take GWM on a Berserker for increased damage. It just isn't necessary to make frenzy good while its online, and any barbarian can benefit from it.
Later abilities do not replace the main archetypal ability. Mindless Rage is good; great, abilities gained at higher levels should feel like rewards! But if we have to go to other abilities to justify Frenzy's shortcomings, then we aren't really talking about the flaws of the ability you'll have in your toy box for most of the campaign.
Again, all true points. Its an interesting idea for a 10th level ability, and better than just getting nothing. But it could have been made more useful so it can really compete with two swings of your Maul or Battleaxe as an option.
Yeah, not all of the totem warrior choices are great. But none of them punish you for using them.
Also, giving melee allies advantage at all times or halving the damage from anything but psychic damage? Those are incredibly strong.
Frenzy is just one extra full attack. yes, its strong, but as you point out, not totally out of bounds for martial classes. If Frenzy was just on all the time during rages, Berserker would just always be the biggest damage dealer of a barbarian hands down. That would probably over-correct frenzy's limits.
This is the biggest misconception I keep seeing. Exhaustion isn't a balancing mechanic. Every other ability in the game that is meant to be limited in use has a balanced system for use: they just have a limited pool of uses per long rest. If Frenzy is just meant to be used once or twice a day, that is all that would have been needed. The number of uses could start at one and scale slowly, like the fighter's action surge.
Exhaustion attached to Frenzy is just forcing the player to accept that limited pool of uses, but with extra punishment. It was a stylistic choice, not a mechanical one.
One thing that's nice about Berserker in regards to GWM (or Polearm Master) is that it allows for the bonus action attack without using up a feat or boxing you into a certain weapon. I'm rolling a zealot barbarian who took GWM at 4th and got Hew within a short time after. While the bonus action from GWM can apply to Hew, the power attack cannot. As a Berseker, I could have chosen a different feat or taken Strength, still had the Bonus Action when I wanted it and had full benefit of the magic weapon and potentially the ASI (depending on what I chose instead). As was pointed out, going Berserker and GWM means that the Bonus Actions appear more frequently, but will always occur when they are most wanted.
The freedom to maximize the action economy without being pigeonholed into feat choices is nice. Berserker still plays nice with GWM and Polearm Master but neither is required to increase options. It looks redundant when two ways of getting a bonus action are available and people looking to make a one size fits all strategy that has all of the abilities from every source stack on each other won't appreciate it nor will people who don't appreciate being able to do several things with the same equipment load out.
As for not being able to use your third level ability (that may have been from a different post than the quoted one), I just went through Cragmaw Castle and only used one rage. That was the only time that I used my third level ability at all. The entire rest of the dungeon, I was as without my bonus damage from Zealot as I would have been with berserker. If I can make that choice and not feel bad about it, then a Berserker can make the same choice while raging and not feel bad about it.
Im more pointing to the +10 damage that the feat allows. A non-berserker Barbarian with GWM and reckless attack can do comparable damage to a frenzied berserker, but without being limited in uses per day (aside from rage). A berserker could also benefit from GWM and up their damage even more during their frenzy.
The extra attack for killing an enemy or crits won't be as consistent as frenzy, but then frenzy isn't constantly available or used in every fight.
Yeah, you could rearrange your whole build for roleplay and to get greater utility out of the one ability you get that uses charisma all the way at level 10. But if we are going to go to that much trouble, its probably going to be a forgotten ability for most berserkers. Its just odd and less useful than it should be. Especially when Barbarians already have Strength, Con, and Dex begging for their points from their main class.
Also, I thought you told me not to theory craft cherry picked scenarios where something is useful/not useful... exactly like waiting until an ally uses bane to make Intimidating Presence not be a waste of an action?
If you're only meant to use it once or twice mechanically (since exhaustion makes 3 uses self defeating, with the disadvantage on attacks)... well its not rocket science to say 1 use per 2 rages in the rage pool.
Yeah, the player loses the choice to use it more and make their character a debilitated mess... but you've told me several times that isn't how you're supposed to play Berserker. And the option to make my character lose half their health or be unable to move are just garbage choices. If a player really just wants to "choose" exhaustion, they are free to skip long rests until they obtain it.
Right, that is the point. Which is good logic to a limited number of uses per long rest, not using exhaustion levels to create the same limit but with annoying passive debuffs added in.
The Paladin only has to hit once to get off a smite, and never self-inflicts a debuff to do so. Im just assuming that even a fight with a BBEG won't go on a full 9 rounds. If it goes on for 6 rounds, and the berserker gets to use their frenzied attack every round, they don't automatically get 6 attacks to land. Its good, but its not outrageously unbalanced even for the one fight you save your frenzy for, since its still in the bounds of what other martial classes can do, albeit in the top tier.
Its weird to keep hearing that frenzy is both outrageously powerful, but that its also balanced to just not use it most of the campaign to ration exhaustion levels. I'd expect more bang for the buck if it really needs all that to be balanced.
A better comparison might be to action surge: at level 11, a fighter is generally getting as many extra attacks as a frenzied barbarian can expect to, but they get that after every short rest with no additional downside. And it only gets more ridiculous for them from there on. You never get more uses of frenzy beyond the hard limit imposed by exhaustion.
Can I actually hold you to that being "what they are supposed to do" though? You've already bounced back and forth between that and "but players need to have the choice of slow suicide by exhaustion!" Is one or two uses a day enough and what is designed to happen, or isn't it?
You may not think they're all "great", but none of them are bad, either. They're all situational. The bear totem's resistance, in particular, only matters when you face those damage types. The rest of the time it's useless.
It beats the pants off of most other martial classes. Only the paladin can reliably get higher damage with anything approaching efficiency. It's also a fallacy to compare martial classes to one another. They're deliberately not balanced against one another. But the subclasses within a particular class are.
So then why aren't you asking the all-important question: why? Why did the designers decide to do this? What was their goal? And cynically saying they want to punish players isn't the answer. It looks to me, to a lot of people, like a pretty decent Risk/Reward system. And it empowers the player to decide how much they want to risk. One level of exhaustion isn't a big deal; disadvantage on ability checks isn't likely to be a real problem unless the berserker is on their own. Two levels can be, but they're still moving up to 20 ft. per round.
And just adding a limited number of times per day isn't going to keep that idea alive. Barbarians already can only rage a few times per day. They already have a built-in mechanic with a limited resource, and you want to make them track two of them? Exhaustion may not be perfect, but it's not terrible. And you don't have to keep going into threads to dump on a subclass you don't like.
Its the ability you get that signifies getting the subclass. Its the one you have for as long as you have the subclass. Its meant to be archetypal. No one only thinks of a subclass as being defined by their second class ability.
I never said they were.
Pays off big dividends when you are facing anything in the monster manual that doesn't just hit you. Slimes, dragons, spellcasters, etc.
Only for the one fight where you use it, and not to an extreme degree. Everyone else will also be pulling out the stops. The fighter will be using their action surge for 2 or 3 extra attacks (potentially just as many as I'd get out of my frenzied barbarian). And after a short rest, he can do it again.
Yes and no? Classes do specifically different tasks, but there is a sense of balance in their utility. No class is supposed to just be automatically better at everything.
I did, and I answered it: it was a stylistic choice when 5e was new. They were trying to do something different from just having a limited number of uses, and realized that basically nothing in base 5e actually made use of the exhaustion levels, so they thought it would be cool while replicating just having a limited pool of uses. It wasn't play tested enough to realize that its just annoying rather than risky and cool.
And Barbarians keeping track of two resource pools is too much? Unlike other classes keeping track of spell slots, channel divinity, prepared spells, race specific one use spells, etc? Please.
Let's keep things civil, everyone. 😉
I'd akin some of the Basic Rules subclasses to be comparable to most of the SCAG subclasses: neat in concepts, but ultimately a bunch of flops. Berserker is definitely among those due to the exhaustion mechanic.
Only a couple of subclass features have some sort of cost, another being the Evocation Wizard's Overchannel, which is also in the BR (although they still get one free use and lost hit points are easy to heal away by that point). This is likely because WotC realised that downsides steer players away from those options.
Are Berserkers bad? No, definitely not. Could they have been better? Yes. Will WotC fix them? No, their design philosophy has them focus on new stuff (sorry PHB rangers, no subclass spells). Can your DM make the changes for you? It's possible, so check in with them.
But all of this back and forth is frustrating - you can keep arguing all you want about a singular ability and the other side will look at class design in its entirety. Next up, compare Immunity to Fear and Charm vs any of the other Barbarian Level 6 Features, that all fall painfully short of expectations. In fact, one could say, looking at just level 6 features, the Berserker Barbarian is the only well-designed class and the rest are terrible.
Also: @Kronzypants, why not keep the arguments about whether Berserker was good or not in the existing “Berserker sucks” thread and keep this to the topic of “Berserker Advice”, rather than rehashing the same argument here?
@ Brewsky Despite the title, isn't the first post in this thread just another "frenzy is actually just fine as is" post?
All bad advice for a Berserker player unfortunately.
A Berserker doesn’t fully come online until higher levels. So the comparison of Barbarians at lower levels is irrelevant.
At level 4, take Sentinel to utilize your reactions and improve your attacks to 3 per round, and 4 per round after you get Extra Attack. Beyond that, feats at later levels will be mostly ASIs for Str, Con, and Cha. I suggest boosting Charisma a bit at least, because Intimidating Presence can essentially nullify an opponent entirely while your team dispatches the goons. Nullifying a creature’s movement indefinitely and without a negating save is incredibly powerful. This combines especially well with Retalition later.
Better yet, wield a shield instead of a two handed weapon. This way, when you don’t reckless you’ll be a better tank than most other Barbs when you need to - push the extra damage when you need it. Your main weapon should be a 10ft reach weapon - this means your Intimidating Presence can keep them at 10ft so they can’t move.
As before, save your Frenzy for the BBEG, you won’t need to make many checks past that point. Besides, you’re likely rolling advantage on the checks that matter for a Barbarian (Athletics during rage), so it only reduces you to a normal roll.