Hello everyone! To be honest, the question is a little more complicated than what the title says so I' ll start from the beginning:
First of all, it' s the first time I play Barbarian but, since I don't like the stereotypical outlander-ish background and due to the campaign beeing settled mostly in town, I decided to make him a thug (criminal background), mostly working for local thieves guilds or as bodyguard/hired killer and other dirty works.
Due to his connection with lowlifes and crime I decided to take a level as a rogue (I am actually 2barb, 1rogue) because I wanted some skills that could reflect better his interactions with criminal life (I find thieves cant and poisoner's kit very flavourful) so the only thing that fits him into the barbarian class is that he is strong and tough (name is Ox 😂). I would like to gain a few more rogue levels but I can't decide which archetype to choose. Do you have any suggestion? Is ok to take 3-4 rogue levels or do you think I should take more?
That said (and here comes the pain), at next level I am going to choose a path and I would have taken the path of the Berserker because I wanted to give him no supernatural strenghts(ex. Zealot, Storm Herald). The problem is that I dual wield, so path of the Berserker would be a waste because frenzy would consume my bonus action to do an exta attack...that I already do (ofc, offhand attacks do not add damage modifiers to the roll but it doesn't seem worth to me). As you probably understood I am not a minmaxer and I don't like powerplaying, but I should at least be of some use for the rest of the party. What do you think? Should I modify the Frenzy skill to have more sinergy with two weapon fighting or should I choose another path forcing it to fit my background?
Thanks in advance and sorry for the very long message!
I would skip on the berserker and just grab another one and reflavour it. You could also maybe pick up battle rager, use the expertise from rogue for athletics and become a grappling machine. Rogue 2 for cunning action lets you dash too for extra movement so you could basically become a cactus that can grab and then run off with people.
I've been looking at a combo almost the same, different background. So, the question is what do you really want to do? Are you sticking toe to toe, or are you a duck and weave kinda guy? If stuck in , then you probably have all the Rogue you need. If you want more for the duck and weave, then 7 is a good place to look at landing (though 8 is better) to get Evasion. If you are going this route, Swashbuckler will be the archetype for you, then you always get your sneak attack damage, whether you are raging or not, or if there is somebody next to you or not.
For Barbarian if you are a Dwarf, Battlerager might be an option, else Berserker you are, just remember when you go into rage you CAN (not must) go into a Frenzy. The other option is to go Totem Warrior, just don't take it so literally, and there is no reason you couldn't substitute Ox for Bear, and other urban animals for the others, Raven, Cat, Dog, Horse...
Don't fall for the "grapple trap", killing is a much easier way to incapacitate an opponent without tanking your AC and actions.
You are right! I haven't specified that my character is a human variant, so I can't be a battlerager.
Basically I am playing him (when it comes to combat) like a regular barbarian, except that I tend to have a more calculating approach, ambushing a lot (exp on stealth) at advantage whenever I can to sneak attack and I would also like to start using poisons. So basically the roguish traits are most present outside combat (deception, proficiency with thieves tools, poisoner's kit) to reflect the fact that my character is grown in a criminal environment.
As for the totem warrior's build, the thing that i don't like is that there is a "spiritual" component in it, i just wanted my character to genuinely bash people 😂. It just seems to hark to reskin...same for storm herald or ancestral guardian. Maybe zealot is is easier but I don't know...
You will be advantage every time you rage, which means if you are using a finesse weapon (but using Str for attack/damage bonus), you hit with sneak attack damage. So dagger or short sword "specialist", especially dagger seems like it would fit in just fine. Think of The Butcher of New York (From Gangs of New York), who goes into a murderous rage...
You will be advantage every time you rage, which means if you are using a finesse weapon (but using Str for attack/damage bonus), you hit with sneak attack damage. So dagger or short sword "specialist", especially dagger seems like it would fit in just fine. Think of The Butcher of New York (From Gangs of New York), who goes into a murderous rage...
Sadly nope, rage gives you advantage on checks and saving throws but not attacks. However you can bypass this with reckless attack to get advantage.
You will be advantage every time you rage, which means if you are using a finesse weapon (but using Str for attack/damage bonus), you hit with sneak attack damage. So dagger or short sword "specialist", especially dagger seems like it would fit in just fine. Think of The Butcher of New York (From Gangs of New York), who goes into a murderous rage...
Sadly nope, rage gives you advantage on checks and saving throws but not attacks. However you can bypass this with reckless attack to get advantage.
Sorry for the imprecision, Reckless Attack does that, which does not require to be Raging.... Regardless Barb 2/ Rogue X is a sneak attack every round with Reckless Attack. Most folks Rage to mitigate the incoming damage...
For your question about how many levels of rogue you should take; given that you want to play mainly a barbarian I wouldn't take more than 3, or 4 if you want/need that ASI. Assassin (for free crits when you start combat in a surprise round) or Swashbuckler (if you want sneak attacks without reckless/more mobility) would work best.
As for your path, it's difficult to *completely* avoid the supernatural given Berserker's and Battlerager's (I know you're human, but the race restriction is setting specific, haven't met anyone who actually cares about the restrictions on battleragers/bladesingers in a home game) preference to two handed weapons. Here's some ideas to keep the supernatural aspect on the other primal paths light:
Storm Herald - Your chosen storm powers come from an item or magical tattoo. (for flavor, talk to your DM so they don't keep trying to remove it via hostile NPCs to cancel your class features)
Totem Warrior - Each animal option could also relate to a role that a thug/criminal would have in their organization. The bear's the brute, eagle's the scout, wolf's the leader, elk's the runner, tiger's the thief. Either use that and accept the animal thing or ask the DM if you can swap out the nature divination ritual spells with generalist divination spells of the same level Detect Poison and Disease instead of Speak with Animals for example and lean it into your poison knowledge.
Zealot - Gods use people all the time, no rules saying that you have to be a willing servant. If you kill a good amount of humanoid NPCs in your campaign maybe a god of death has taken a liking to you and reaps what you sow. Similar ideas for if you clear out evil, go to war, etc. etc. just find a god who'd really like that and wants to take some credit for your deeds.
For your question about how many levels of rogue you should take; given that you want to play mainly a barbarian I wouldn't take more than 3, or 4 if you want/need that ASI. Assassin (for free crits when you start combat in a surprise round) or Swashbuckler (if you want sneak attacks without reckless/more mobility) would work best.
As for your path, it's difficult to *completely* avoid the supernatural given Berserker's and Battlerager's (I know you're human, but the race restriction is setting specific, haven't met anyone who actually cares about the restrictions on battleragers/bladesingers in a home game) preference to two handed weapons. Here's some ideas to keep the supernatural aspect on the other primal paths light:
Storm Herald - Your chosen storm powers come from an item or magical tattoo. (for flavor, talk to your DM so they don't keep trying to remove it via hostile NPCs to cancel your class features)
Totem Warrior - Each animal option could also relate to a role that a thug/criminal would have in their organization. The bear's the brute, eagle's the scout, wolf's the leader, elk's the runner, tiger's the thief. Either use that and accept the animal thing or ask the DM if you can swap out the nature divination ritual spells with generalist divination spells of the same level Detect Poison and Disease instead of Speak with Animals for example and lean it into your poison knowledge.
Zealot - Gods use people all the time, no rules saying that you have to be a willing servant. If you kill a good amount of humanoid NPCs in your campaign maybe a god of death has taken a liking to you and reaps what you sow. Similar ideas for if you clear out evil, go to war, etc. etc. just find a god who'd really like that and wants to take some credit for your deeds.
Woah! I never thought about those kind of solutions, your ideas are great! I think I can work something out. Thanks! :)
Barb/rogue is at least supercool if you go bear totem and scout rogue and take expertise in athletics. You can grapple anything and drag them all over the place while stabbing them for sneak attack. Rage to gain advantage on athletics, and reckless to autosneak attack while grappling. Starts working at barb2/rogue1. Requires one hand free though.
Grappling is a very situational tactic. First off, you give up an attack, and since you are not attacking with a weapon, you don't get a bonus action for two weapon fighting, which means until you get two attacks from Barb 5, your grapple is your action. So you will cause both yourself and them to have a speed of 0, without causing any damage, and they will still be able to attack anyone within reach/range, can cast spells, or attempt to break your grapple. In short, a grapple build is a trap build. A shove prone build is better in every way except immobilization.
Better off just using reckless attack with two weapon fighting using strength for hit/damage modifier with a finesse weapon which practically guarantees a sneak attack proc every round.
Don't forget Sneak Attack doesn't work with Strength based weapons. It only applies with light/ Finesse/ Dex based range weapons.
You are incorrect. Sneak Attack only applies with Finesse or Ranged weapons. Neither Light nor Dex based is actually mentioned. There is nothing that prevents one from using Strength as their ability modifier for Finesse weapons. Which means one can use Reckless Attack and Rage using a Rapier, Scimitar, Shortsword, or Dagger using their Strength modifier and be perfectly fine.
Don't forget Sneak Attack doesn't work with Strength based weapons. It only applies with light/ Finesse/ Dex based range weapons.
You are incorrect. Sneak Attack only applies with Finesse or Ranged weapons. Neither Light nor Dex based is actually mentioned. There is nothing that prevents one from using Strength as their ability modifier for Finesse weapons. Which means one can use Reckless Attack and Rage using a Rapier, Scimitar, Shortsword, or Dagger using their Strength modifier and be perfectly fine.
The attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon.
I misspoke and should have re-read what I meant to say before I typed. Still, it's important to remember that you're not going to get Sneak Attack with a Great-Axe or Greatsword or Longsword is what I meant to say.
No worries, I've misspoke or not been clear on these boards as well. It happens, afterall we KNOW what we MEAN. ;-)
Using Two Weapon Fighting with two daggers, reckless attack, rage strength based, will result in a better overall average damage output than using a greataxe/sword as a 3rd level character. (1d4+2d6)*.95 (dropping damage modifier entirely even) versus (1d12+modifier)*.85) for a round calculation using Attack action with Bonus Attack for TWF with the daggers, no feats or other class abilities.
That reflects 60% bounded accuracy, +25% to hit for advantage per attack.
No worries, I've misspoke or not been clear on these boards as well. It happens, afterall we KNOW what we MEAN. ;-)
Using Two Weapon Fighting with two daggers, reckless attack, rage strength based, will result in a better overall average damage output than using a greataxe/sword as a 3rd level character. (1d4+2d6)*.95 (dropping damage modifier entirely even) versus (1d12+modifier)*.85) for a round calculation using Attack action with Bonus Attack for TWF with the daggers, no feats or other class abilities.
That reflects 60% bounded accuracy, +25% to hit for advantage per attack.
Yeah, I had a player try to get Sneak Attack damage with Shocking Grasp before. :)
Grappling is a very situational tactic. First off, you give up an attack, and since you are not attacking with a weapon, you don't get a bonus action for two weapon fighting, which means until you get two attacks from Barb 5, your grapple is your action. So you will cause both yourself and them to have a speed of 0, without causing any damage, and they will still be able to attack anyone within reach/range, can cast spells, or attempt to break your grapple. In short, a grapple build is a trap build. A shove prone build is better in every way except immobilization.
Better off just using reckless attack with two weapon fighting using strength for hit/damage modifier with a finesse weapon which practically guarantees a sneak attack proc every round.
Its not a trap build when the investment is close to zero. With a rogue/barb the only thing you have to do is take expertise in athletics, everything else can be done however you want. In return you become insanely good at battlefield control, forcing melee combatants to attack you (who habe resistance to everything), tossing people of cliffs and do a lot of other crazy stuff. Again, the reason it is so good is the tiny opportunity cost. In other situations you can dual wield or whatever you want :)
1. I'll take Expertise with Thieves Tools, Perception, Investigation, or Stealth if I'm a Barb/Rog 10/10, I'm not wasting my Expertise to have minimal effect on the battlefield environment. 2. Nothing in grapple "forces them to attack you". 3. INsanely good at minimal battlefield control 4. Tossing people off cliffs is not part of grapple, that is shove. 5. There is no crazy stuff you can do with grapple. You reduce a creature's speed to 0, that is it. You know what else reduces a creature's speed to 0, death.
If you want "insane battlefield control" then pick a Wizard...
This whole Barb/Rogue grappling build debate is unrelated to the OP's post. OP's question about barbarian paths and character flavor has been answered and they were happy with the results. Please start your own thread if you wish to continue.
This whole Barb/Rogue grappling build debate is unrelated to the OP's post. OP's question about barbarian paths and character flavor has been answered and they were happy with the results. Please start your own thread if you wish to continue.
However, it was fun to have different ideas about different builds :D
Thanks to all who answered and to NathanBC for the beautiful insights he gave me!
Hello everyone! To be honest, the question is a little more complicated than what the title says so I' ll start from the beginning:
First of all, it' s the first time I play Barbarian but, since I don't like the stereotypical outlander-ish background and due to the campaign beeing settled mostly in town, I decided to make him a thug (criminal background), mostly working for local thieves guilds or as bodyguard/hired killer and other dirty works.
Due to his connection with lowlifes and crime I decided to take a level as a rogue (I am actually 2barb, 1rogue) because I wanted some skills that could reflect better his interactions with criminal life (I find thieves cant and poisoner's kit very flavourful) so the only thing that fits him into the barbarian class is that he is strong and tough (name is Ox 😂). I would like to gain a few more rogue levels but I can't decide which archetype to choose. Do you have any suggestion? Is ok to take 3-4 rogue levels or do you think I should take more?
That said (and here comes the pain), at next level I am going to choose a path and I would have taken the path of the Berserker because I wanted to give him no supernatural strenghts(ex. Zealot, Storm Herald). The problem is that I dual wield, so path of the Berserker would be a waste because frenzy would consume my bonus action to do an exta attack...that I already do (ofc, offhand attacks do not add damage modifiers to the roll but it doesn't seem worth to me). As you probably understood I am not a minmaxer and I don't like powerplaying, but I should at least be of some use for the rest of the party. What do you think? Should I modify the Frenzy skill to have more sinergy with two weapon fighting or should I choose another path forcing it to fit my background?
Thanks in advance and sorry for the very long message!
I would skip on the berserker and just grab another one and reflavour it. You could also maybe pick up battle rager, use the expertise from rogue for athletics and become a grappling machine. Rogue 2 for cunning action lets you dash too for extra movement so you could basically become a cactus that can grab and then run off with people.
I've been looking at a combo almost the same, different background. So, the question is what do you really want to do? Are you sticking toe to toe, or are you a duck and weave kinda guy? If stuck in , then you probably have all the Rogue you need. If you want more for the duck and weave, then 7 is a good place to look at landing (though 8 is better) to get Evasion. If you are going this route, Swashbuckler will be the archetype for you, then you always get your sneak attack damage, whether you are raging or not, or if there is somebody next to you or not.
For Barbarian if you are a Dwarf, Battlerager might be an option, else Berserker you are, just remember when you go into rage you CAN (not must) go into a Frenzy. The other option is to go Totem Warrior, just don't take it so literally, and there is no reason you couldn't substitute Ox for Bear, and other urban animals for the others, Raven, Cat, Dog, Horse...
Don't fall for the "grapple trap", killing is a much easier way to incapacitate an opponent without tanking your AC and actions.
You are right! I haven't specified that my character is a human variant, so I can't be a battlerager.
Basically I am playing him (when it comes to combat) like a regular barbarian, except that I tend to have a more calculating approach, ambushing a lot (exp on stealth) at advantage whenever I can to sneak attack and I would also like to start using poisons. So basically the roguish traits are most present outside combat (deception, proficiency with thieves tools, poisoner's kit) to reflect the fact that my character is grown in a criminal environment.
As for the totem warrior's build, the thing that i don't like is that there is a "spiritual" component in it, i just wanted my character to genuinely bash people 😂. It just seems to hark to reskin...same for storm herald or ancestral guardian. Maybe zealot is is easier but I don't know...
You will be advantage every time you rage, which means if you are using a finesse weapon (but using Str for attack/damage bonus), you hit with sneak attack damage. So dagger or short sword "specialist", especially dagger seems like it would fit in just fine. Think of The Butcher of New York (From Gangs of New York), who goes into a murderous rage...
Sadly nope, rage gives you advantage on checks and saving throws but not attacks. However you can bypass this with reckless attack to get advantage.
Sorry for the imprecision, Reckless Attack does that, which does not require to be Raging.... Regardless Barb 2/ Rogue X is a sneak attack every round with Reckless Attack. Most folks Rage to mitigate the incoming damage...
For your question about how many levels of rogue you should take; given that you want to play mainly a barbarian I wouldn't take more than 3, or 4 if you want/need that ASI. Assassin (for free crits when you start combat in a surprise round) or Swashbuckler (if you want sneak attacks without reckless/more mobility) would work best.
As for your path, it's difficult to *completely* avoid the supernatural given Berserker's and Battlerager's (I know you're human, but the race restriction is setting specific, haven't met anyone who actually cares about the restrictions on battleragers/bladesingers in a home game) preference to two handed weapons. Here's some ideas to keep the supernatural aspect on the other primal paths light:
Storm Herald - Your chosen storm powers come from an item or magical tattoo. (for flavor, talk to your DM so they don't keep trying to remove it via hostile NPCs to cancel your class features)
Totem Warrior - Each animal option could also relate to a role that a thug/criminal would have in their organization. The bear's the brute, eagle's the scout, wolf's the leader, elk's the runner, tiger's the thief. Either use that and accept the animal thing or ask the DM if you can swap out the nature divination ritual spells with generalist divination spells of the same level Detect Poison and Disease instead of Speak with Animals for example and lean it into your poison knowledge.
Zealot - Gods use people all the time, no rules saying that you have to be a willing servant. If you kill a good amount of humanoid NPCs in your campaign maybe a god of death has taken a liking to you and reaps what you sow. Similar ideas for if you clear out evil, go to war, etc. etc. just find a god who'd really like that and wants to take some credit for your deeds.
Woah! I never thought about those kind of solutions, your ideas are great! I think I can work something out. Thanks! :)
Barb/rogue is at least supercool if you go bear totem and scout rogue and take expertise in athletics. You can grapple anything and drag them all over the place while stabbing them for sneak attack. Rage to gain advantage on athletics, and reckless to autosneak attack while grappling. Starts working at barb2/rogue1. Requires one hand free though.
Grappling is a very situational tactic. First off, you give up an attack, and since you are not attacking with a weapon, you don't get a bonus action for two weapon fighting, which means until you get two attacks from Barb 5, your grapple is your action. So you will cause both yourself and them to have a speed of 0, without causing any damage, and they will still be able to attack anyone within reach/range, can cast spells, or attempt to break your grapple. In short, a grapple build is a trap build. A shove prone build is better in every way except immobilization.
Better off just using reckless attack with two weapon fighting using strength for hit/damage modifier with a finesse weapon which practically guarantees a sneak attack proc every round.
Don't forget Sneak Attack doesn't work with Strength based weapons. It only applies with light/ Finesse/ Dex based range weapons.
You are incorrect. Sneak Attack only applies with Finesse or Ranged weapons. Neither Light nor Dex based is actually mentioned. There is nothing that prevents one from using Strength as their ability modifier for Finesse weapons. Which means one can use Reckless Attack and Rage using a Rapier, Scimitar, Shortsword, or Dagger using their Strength modifier and be perfectly fine.
I misspoke and should have re-read what I meant to say before I typed. Still, it's important to remember that you're not going to get Sneak Attack with a Great-Axe or Greatsword or Longsword is what I meant to say.
No worries, I've misspoke or not been clear on these boards as well. It happens, afterall we KNOW what we MEAN. ;-)
Using Two Weapon Fighting with two daggers, reckless attack, rage strength based, will result in a better overall average damage output than using a greataxe/sword as a 3rd level character. (1d4+2d6)*.95 (dropping damage modifier entirely even) versus (1d12+modifier)*.85) for a round calculation using Attack action with Bonus Attack for TWF with the daggers, no feats or other class abilities.
That reflects 60% bounded accuracy, +25% to hit for advantage per attack.
Yeah, I had a player try to get Sneak Attack damage with Shocking Grasp before. :)
Its not a trap build when the investment is close to zero. With a rogue/barb the only thing you have to do is take expertise in athletics, everything else can be done however you want. In return you become insanely good at battlefield control, forcing melee combatants to attack you (who habe resistance to everything), tossing people of cliffs and do a lot of other crazy stuff. Again, the reason it is so good is the tiny opportunity cost. In other situations you can dual wield or whatever you want :)
1. I'll take Expertise with Thieves Tools, Perception, Investigation, or Stealth if I'm a Barb/Rog 10/10, I'm not wasting my Expertise to have minimal effect on the battlefield environment.
2. Nothing in grapple "forces them to attack you".
3. INsanely good at minimal battlefield control
4. Tossing people off cliffs is not part of grapple, that is shove.
5. There is no crazy stuff you can do with grapple. You reduce a creature's speed to 0, that is it. You know what else reduces a creature's speed to 0, death.
If you want "insane battlefield control" then pick a Wizard...
This whole Barb/Rogue grappling build debate is unrelated to the OP's post. OP's question about barbarian paths and character flavor has been answered and they were happy with the results. Please start your own thread if you wish to continue.
However, it was fun to have different ideas about different builds :D
Thanks to all who answered and to NathanBC for the beautiful insights he gave me!