Jhffan I'm a huge advocate of the shield master Barbarian. It it hugely overlooked, as Barbarians make way better shield masters than Fighters. But the only downside to using it as a gnome is you would be restricted to shoving medium and smaller creatures.
If you're rounding out an odd strength score, slasher is great for immobilizing enemies. Minus 10 feet for slasher, then knock them prone, and most enemies only have 5 feet of movement left when they get back up.
Alternatively, take the Skill Master feat and take expertise in athletics. Your bonus action shove nearly auto-succeeds.
Jhffan I'm a huge advocate of the shield master Barbarian. It it hugely overlooked, as Barbarians make way better shield masters than Fighters. But the only downside to using it as a gnome is you would be restricted to shoving medium and smaller creatures.
If you're rounding out an odd strength score, slasher is great for immobilizing enemies. Minus 10 feet for slasher, then knock them prone, and most enemies only have 5 feet of movement left when they get back up.
Alternatively, take the Skill Master feat and take expertise in athletics. Your bonus action shove nearly auto-succeeds.
I'm sad that the last character that I played was a barbarian because I kinda want to play the one I outlined. You do have the limitations that are mentioned, but it's not the end of the world either. You could also dip 2 to 4 levels rogue to get expertise, sneak attack (used with a scimitar) to make up the damage, Cunning action for dashes and then whatever other options you deemed necessary. That opens another set of options.
It's going to take the gnome barbarian (Napoleon) up until level 16 to invest in all of those half-feats and shield master, and it won't have great stats to show for it. I would definitely pull it back and keep it to slasher and maximize strength before more half-feats. Besides that, and the limitation on the shoves that's a nice build Jhfffan. Not the imagery I'm looking for out of a small barbarian, but a cool one for sure.
Sticking to dual-wielding, I would already be dipping fighter for the fighting style. At that point I could grab Battlemaster and Tripping Manuever. That can effect up to Large creatures regardless of size. Throw in Slasher and you have a very similar style while sticking to the tiny whirlwind of blades I want to play.
It's going to take the gnome barbarian (Napoleon) up until level 16 to invest in all of those half-feats and shield master, and it won't have great stats to show for it. I would definitely pull it back and keep it to slasher and maximize strength before more half-feats. Besides that, and the limitation on the shoves that's a nice build Jhfffan. Not the imagery I'm looking for out of a small barbarian, but a cool one for sure.
Sticking to dual-wielding, I would already be dipping fighter for the fighting style. At that point I could grab Battlemaster and Tripping Manuever. That can effect up to Large creatures regardless of size. Throw in Slasher and you have a very similar style while sticking to the tiny whirlwind of blades I want to play.
Yeah, you'd definitely want to stick with the "core" Napoleon and go shield master and slasher for gnome barbarian, though the other options are interesting to look at as you continue to progress. Fighter gets the Napoleon feats at level 6 and a human variant gets them at 4, but then it's a different flavor of Napoleon. Still has some fun possibilities though.
The two weapon variant also has its fun, I was thinking about a slasher/dual wielder/Crusher rogue 2-4/barb X possibilty that could be diluted to a straight barb. Maybe call that one the knee capper. So many subtle variants off the same motif help make the character your own though.
Duel Wielding for a Barbarian is bad. Without the fighting style it's weapon die only.
It would still get rage damage. True enough that not having the fighting style would hurt. But it's not the end of the world on one attack and the fighting initiate feat or a one level dip into fighter gets the fighting style and second wind, which is more effective on a barbarian anyway. That does mean that the damage numbers I ran earlier are off by 3 damage raw and 1.2 damage expected on the totals.
Duel Wielding for a Barbarian is bad. Without the fighting style it's weapon die only.
It would still get rage damage. True enough that not having the fighting style would hurt. But it's not the end of the world on one attack and the fighting initiate feat or a one level dip into fighter gets the fighting style and second wind, which is more effective on a barbarian anyway. That does mean that the damage numbers I ran earlier are off by 3 damage raw and 1.2 damage expected on the totals.
So probably, variant fighter with the dual wielding fighting style and the duel wielder feat. Would probably be the best way to start the build. It only depends which skill proficiencies you want. Barbarian or fighter.
Duel Wielding for a Barbarian is bad. Without the fighting style it's weapon die only.
It would still get rage damage. True enough that not having the fighting style would hurt. But it's not the end of the world on one attack and the fighting initiate feat or a one level dip into fighter gets the fighting style and second wind, which is more effective on a barbarian anyway. That does mean that the damage numbers I ran earlier are off by 3 damage raw and 1.2 damage expected on the totals.
There's too other options that do more damage and are more effective.
Duel Wielding for a Barbarian is bad. Without the fighting style it's weapon die only.
It would still get rage damage. True enough that not having the fighting style would hurt. But it's not the end of the world on one attack and the fighting initiate feat or a one level dip into fighter gets the fighting style and second wind, which is more effective on a barbarian anyway. That does mean that the damage numbers I ran earlier are off by 3 damage raw and 1.2 damage expected on the totals.
There's too other options that do more damage and are more effective.
Really? A play style that doubles your chance to hit and double your rage damage? Please do tell. Besides barbarians don't have much use for bonus action, especially at early levels.
I mean two-weapon fighting is just bad in general. That's not really the point.
This all started because there was discussion about small barbarians. small barbarians can't wield heavy weapons, so that competition is out of the way and makes two-weapon fighting a bit more enticing as a natural fit to fill the bonus action. It also fits the imagery of a small barbarian really well.
More enticing because of context does not equal great fighting style and no one was professing as such.
Duel Wielding for a Barbarian is bad. Without the fighting style it's weapon die only.
It would still get rage damage. True enough that not having the fighting style would hurt. But it's not the end of the world on one attack and the fighting initiate feat or a one level dip into fighter gets the fighting style and second wind, which is more effective on a barbarian anyway. That does mean that the damage numbers I ran earlier are off by 3 damage raw and 1.2 damage expected on the totals.
There's too other options that do more damage and are more effective.
Really? A play style that doubles your chance to hit and double your rage damage? Please do tell. Besides barbarians don't have much use for bonus action, especially at early levels.
I'm sure that he'll mention GWM and PAM. It's a highly effective build and popular for a reason. The per hit damage is pretty good, PAM gives a consistent bonus action attack that is overridden by GWM on kills and crits. The larger damage die mesh well with brutal critical and reckless attacks lead to a fair number. Looking at the raw numbers, it's no contest. When you factor in the -5 to hit, dual wielding is competitive. I didn't run the numbers on the PAM bonus attack, but I included the numbers above, acknowledging that the dual wielder numbers included 3 damage points for strength on the bonus attack. Weighing in other things like criticals, not taking the power attacks at certain levels of AC, etc were not factored into the numbers. PAM getting more possible uses for the reaction attack also favor that build. It's not so much better that you can't compete at all, but min/ maxer/optimizer types will take it all day every day.
Yeah I'm not a real fan of min/maxers. Although I will admit that I like taking some builds that could be considered min/maxing and try to figure out a good backstory. But that's the story for another time. (Turtle spore)
Yeah I'm not a real fan of min/maxers. Although I will admit that I like taking some builds that could be considered min/maxing and try to figure out a good backstory. But that's the story for another time. (Turtle spore)
There's nothing wrong with min maxing, and you can optimize more than just damage. A build is a build and as long as you're having fun with it, it's serving it's purpose. The gnome barbarian and dual wielder are usually incredibly fun for the people that play them because the optics are enough to counter any subpar mechanics.
Duel Wielding for a Barbarian is bad. Without the fighting style it's weapon die only.
Which is why I've talked about the build in the context of dipping fighter.
You can pick up the fighting style with a feat now too, should you choose.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Eh, true, but I'm of the opinion none of them are worth a feat except archery style for the plink plink types. Considering I already like the fighter dip more than full barb, I'm not put out by going that way on the build.
Duel Wielding for a Barbarian is bad. Without the fighting style it's weapon die only.
It would still get rage damage. True enough that not having the fighting style would hurt. But it's not the end of the world on one attack and the fighting initiate feat or a one level dip into fighter gets the fighting style and second wind, which is more effective on a barbarian anyway. That does mean that the damage numbers I ran earlier are off by 3 damage raw and 1.2 damage expected on the totals.
There's too other options that do more damage and are more effective.
Really? A play style that doubles your chance to hit and double your rage damage? Please do tell. Besides barbarians don't have much use for bonus action, especially at early levels.
I'm sure that he'll mention GWM and PAM. It's a highly effective build and popular for a reason. The per hit damage is pretty good, PAM gives a consistent bonus action attack that is overridden by GWM on kills and crits. The larger damage die mesh well with brutal critical and reckless attacks lead to a fair number. Looking at the raw numbers, it's no contest. When you factor in the -5 to hit, dual wielding is competitive. I didn't run the numbers on the PAM bonus attack, but I included the numbers above, acknowledging that the dual wielder numbers included 3 damage points for strength on the bonus attack. Weighing in other things like criticals, not taking the power attacks at certain levels of AC, etc were not factored into the numbers. PAM getting more possible uses for the reaction attack also favor that build. It's not so much better that you can't compete at all, but min/ maxer/optimizer types will take it all day every day.
Yes, all of those. Let's say Level 5 with 18 strength
Duel wield Rapiers = 27.5 damage assuming all hit
Glaive + PAM = 31.5
Greatsword + GWM when no extra attack: 26 (not counting +10 damage, depends on vs AC)
Greatsword + GWM with extra attack: 39 (not counting +10 damage, depends on vs AC)
Here's a fun one. Shield + Spear + PAM: 27.5. The same as dual wielding, only you're carrying a shield for +2 AC.
Duel Wielding for a Barbarian is bad. Without the fighting style it's weapon die only.
It would still get rage damage. True enough that not having the fighting style would hurt. But it's not the end of the world on one attack and the fighting initiate feat or a one level dip into fighter gets the fighting style and second wind, which is more effective on a barbarian anyway. That does mean that the damage numbers I ran earlier are off by 3 damage raw and 1.2 damage expected on the totals.
There's too other options that do more damage and are more effective.
Really? A play style that doubles your chance to hit and double your rage damage? Please do tell. Besides barbarians don't have much use for bonus action, especially at early levels.
I'm sure that he'll mention GWM and PAM. It's a highly effective build and popular for a reason. The per hit damage is pretty good, PAM gives a consistent bonus action attack that is overridden by GWM on kills and crits. The larger damage die mesh well with brutal critical and reckless attacks lead to a fair number. Looking at the raw numbers, it's no contest. When you factor in the -5 to hit, dual wielding is competitive. I didn't run the numbers on the PAM bonus attack, but I included the numbers above, acknowledging that the dual wielder numbers included 3 damage points for strength on the bonus attack. Weighing in other things like criticals, not taking the power attacks at certain levels of AC, etc were not factored into the numbers. PAM getting more possible uses for the reaction attack also favor that build. It's not so much better that you can't compete at all, but min/ maxer/optimizer types will take it all day every day.
Yes, all of those. Let's say Level 5 with 18 strength
Duel wield Rapiers = 27.5 damage assuming all hit
Glaive + PAM = 31.5
Greatsword + GWM when no extra attack: 26 (not counting +10 damage, depends on vs AC)
Greatsword + GWM with extra attack: 39 (not counting +10 damage, depends on vs AC)
Here's a fun one. Shield + Spear + PAM: 27.5. The same as dual wielding, only you're carrying a shield for +2 AC.
Dual wielder d8s=(4.5+3+4=11.5)×2=23+7.5=30.5 and +1 AC from dual wielder feat
Glaive and PAM =5.5+3+4=12.5×2=25+2.5+3+4=34.5
Greatsword with no bonus attack= 7+3+4=14 ×2=28 with no power attack
Greatsword with GWM bonus attack off kill =14×3=42
Spear and board plus PAM (hoplite)= 3.5+3+4=10.5×2=21+9.5=30.5 +2 AC
It looks like you forgot to upgrade rage damage. Edit: thanks for the correction Stephanie. Rage is only +2. I'll leave the mistakes in for posterity's sake, Sean's math is right.
Greatsword plus the bonus action is the clear winner but that requires that you either crit or kill a creature and that either another creature is within range (including any movement you may have left) or that the creature took your crit and survived. Power attacks enhance the damage, lower the hit chance, but potentially increase the chances of a kill. Otherwise, it's last place and likely brings your average damage closer to the other builds but probably still in the lead. The caveat for the requirement is only included because it's needed to generate the bonus action attack. Clearly the same caveat exists for valid targets for all attacks otherwise.
Glaive & PAM might be in the lead depending on the number of bonus attacks Greatsword GWM gets but it's at least competitive.
Dual Wielder and Hoplite PAM are competitive damage wise with increased defense. Hoplite has slightly better defense but is less versatile offensively, only being able to bring piercing damage with some bludgeoning or all bludgeoning with a quarterstaff. Thrown range is 20 ft without disadvantage. Dual wielder can bring any combination of damage and can bring a thrown range of up to 30 ft with a javelin (though it loses average damage to do so). The reason that I'm including the javelin is to highlight the difference between being able to draw two weapons at the same time vs having a shield that requires an action to stow. There are benefits to both builds and both builds surpass the heavy weapon builds for small creatures. It should be noted that the defense bonus is lost if dual wielder throws one and can't replace it. The hoplite loses damage on opportunity attacks if it throws its weapon loses the BA attack assuming that the DM doesn't allow the attack action to be interrupted to perform the bonus action attack.
4 average damage difference isn't enough of a difference to scare someone off the builds for a medium size character especially when factoring the loss of damage for ranged options bringing the heavy weapons a little closer, especially if they favor defense. Likewise, up to +2 AC isn't enough to scare someone off of heavy weapons, but disadvantage for a small character should be. They are close enough that someone should go with the build that appeals to them.
It should be noted that an 18 strength and a feat is only really possible at level 5 with rolled stats, a human variant, or the new custom origin, without a DM granting a bonus feat. It doesn't affect the comparison but does increase the numbers.
Jhffan I'm a huge advocate of the shield master Barbarian. It it hugely overlooked, as Barbarians make way better shield masters than Fighters. But the only downside to using it as a gnome is you would be restricted to shoving medium and smaller creatures.
If you're rounding out an odd strength score, slasher is great for immobilizing enemies. Minus 10 feet for slasher, then knock them prone, and most enemies only have 5 feet of movement left when they get back up.
Alternatively, take the Skill Master feat and take expertise in athletics. Your bonus action shove nearly auto-succeeds.
I'm sad that the last character that I played was a barbarian because I kinda want to play the one I outlined. You do have the limitations that are mentioned, but it's not the end of the world either. You could also dip 2 to 4 levels rogue to get expertise, sneak attack (used with a scimitar) to make up the damage, Cunning action for dashes and then whatever other options you deemed necessary. That opens another set of options.
It's going to take the gnome barbarian (Napoleon) up until level 16 to invest in all of those half-feats and shield master, and it won't have great stats to show for it. I would definitely pull it back and keep it to slasher and maximize strength before more half-feats. Besides that, and the limitation on the shoves that's a nice build Jhfffan. Not the imagery I'm looking for out of a small barbarian, but a cool one for sure.
Sticking to dual-wielding, I would already be dipping fighter for the fighting style. At that point I could grab Battlemaster and Tripping Manuever. That can effect up to Large creatures regardless of size. Throw in Slasher and you have a very similar style while sticking to the tiny whirlwind of blades I want to play.
Yeah, you'd definitely want to stick with the "core" Napoleon and go shield master and slasher for gnome barbarian, though the other options are interesting to look at as you continue to progress. Fighter gets the Napoleon feats at level 6 and a human variant gets them at 4, but then it's a different flavor of Napoleon. Still has some fun possibilities though.
The two weapon variant also has its fun, I was thinking about a slasher/dual wielder/Crusher rogue 2-4/barb X possibilty that could be diluted to a straight barb. Maybe call that one the knee capper. So many subtle variants off the same motif help make the character your own though.
Duel Wielding for a Barbarian is bad. Without the fighting style it's weapon die only.
Or the feat. So a level 4 minimum. (Taking variant)
Also duel welding without the fighting style is just bad no matter the class
Which is why I've talked about the build in the context of dipping fighter.
It would still get rage damage. True enough that not having the fighting style would hurt. But it's not the end of the world on one attack and the fighting initiate feat or a one level dip into fighter gets the fighting style and second wind, which is more effective on a barbarian anyway. That does mean that the damage numbers I ran earlier are off by 3 damage raw and 1.2 damage expected on the totals.
So probably, variant fighter with the dual wielding fighting style and the duel wielder feat. Would probably be the best way to start the build. It only depends which skill proficiencies you want. Barbarian or fighter.
There's too other options that do more damage and are more effective.
Really? A play style that doubles your chance to hit and double your rage damage? Please do tell. Besides barbarians don't have much use for bonus action, especially at early levels.
I mean two-weapon fighting is just bad in general. That's not really the point.
This all started because there was discussion about small barbarians. small barbarians can't wield heavy weapons, so that competition is out of the way and makes two-weapon fighting a bit more enticing as a natural fit to fill the bonus action. It also fits the imagery of a small barbarian really well.
More enticing because of context does not equal great fighting style and no one was professing as such.
I'm sure that he'll mention GWM and PAM. It's a highly effective build and popular for a reason. The per hit damage is pretty good, PAM gives a consistent bonus action attack that is overridden by GWM on kills and crits. The larger damage die mesh well with brutal critical and reckless attacks lead to a fair number. Looking at the raw numbers, it's no contest. When you factor in the -5 to hit, dual wielding is competitive. I didn't run the numbers on the PAM bonus attack, but I included the numbers above, acknowledging that the dual wielder numbers included 3 damage points for strength on the bonus attack. Weighing in other things like criticals, not taking the power attacks at certain levels of AC, etc were not factored into the numbers. PAM getting more possible uses for the reaction attack also favor that build. It's not so much better that you can't compete at all, but min/ maxer/optimizer types will take it all day every day.
Yeah I'm not a real fan of min/maxers. Although I will admit that I like taking some builds that could be considered min/maxing and try to figure out a good backstory. But that's the story for another time. (Turtle spore)
There's nothing wrong with min maxing, and you can optimize more than just damage. A build is a build and as long as you're having fun with it, it's serving it's purpose. The gnome barbarian and dual wielder are usually incredibly fun for the people that play them because the optics are enough to counter any subpar mechanics.
You can pick up the fighting style with a feat now too, should you choose.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Eh, true, but I'm of the opinion none of them are worth a feat except archery style for the plink plink types. Considering I already like the fighter dip more than full barb, I'm not put out by going that way on the build.
Yes, all of those. Let's say Level 5 with 18 strength
Duel wield Rapiers = 27.5 damage assuming all hit
Glaive + PAM = 31.5
Greatsword + GWM when no extra attack: 26 (not counting +10 damage, depends on vs AC)
Greatsword + GWM with extra attack: 39 (not counting +10 damage, depends on vs AC)
Here's a fun one. Shield + Spear + PAM: 27.5. The same as dual wielding, only you're carrying a shield for +2 AC.
Dual wielder d8s=(4.5+3+4=11.5)×2=23+7.5=30.5 and +1 AC from dual wielder feat
Glaive and PAM =5.5+3+4=12.5×2=25+2.5+3+4=34.5
Greatsword with no bonus attack= 7+3+4=14 ×2=28 with no power attack
Greatsword with GWM bonus attack off kill =14×3=42
Spear and board plus PAM (hoplite)= 3.5+3+4=10.5×2=21+9.5=30.5 +2 AC
It looks like you forgot to upgrade rage damage. Edit: thanks for the correction Stephanie. Rage is only +2. I'll leave the mistakes in for posterity's sake, Sean's math is right.
Greatsword plus the bonus action is the clear winner but that requires that you either crit or kill a creature and that either another creature is within range (including any movement you may have left) or that the creature took your crit and survived. Power attacks enhance the damage, lower the hit chance, but potentially increase the chances of a kill. Otherwise, it's last place and likely brings your average damage closer to the other builds but probably still in the lead. The caveat for the requirement is only included because it's needed to generate the bonus action attack. Clearly the same caveat exists for valid targets for all attacks otherwise.
Glaive & PAM might be in the lead depending on the number of bonus attacks Greatsword GWM gets but it's at least competitive.
Dual Wielder and Hoplite PAM are competitive damage wise with increased defense. Hoplite has slightly better defense but is less versatile offensively, only being able to bring piercing damage with some bludgeoning or all bludgeoning with a quarterstaff. Thrown range is 20 ft without disadvantage. Dual wielder can bring any combination of damage and can bring a thrown range of up to 30 ft with a javelin (though it loses average damage to do so). The reason that I'm including the javelin is to highlight the difference between being able to draw two weapons at the same time vs having a shield that requires an action to stow. There are benefits to both builds and both builds surpass the heavy weapon builds for small creatures. It should be noted that the defense bonus is lost if dual wielder throws one and can't replace it. The hoplite loses damage on opportunity attacks if it throws its weapon loses the BA attack assuming that the DM doesn't allow the attack action to be interrupted to perform the bonus action attack.
4 average damage difference isn't enough of a difference to scare someone off the builds for a medium size character especially when factoring the loss of damage for ranged options bringing the heavy weapons a little closer, especially if they favor defense. Likewise, up to +2 AC isn't enough to scare someone off of heavy weapons, but disadvantage for a small character should be. They are close enough that someone should go with the build that appeals to them.
It should be noted that an 18 strength and a feat is only really possible at level 5 with rolled stats, a human variant, or the new custom origin, without a DM granting a bonus feat. It doesn't affect the comparison but does increase the numbers.
Rage damage updates at 9th level, not 5th level. The number of rages you get is 3 at 5th level, but damage is still +2.
Chilling kinda vibe.