I've been playing 5e for a few years now. I love the idea of a Spell Sword Gish (character that mixes martial abilities with spellcasting), but none of the pre-built options in 5e fit the vision that I have in mind. Bards are close, but their martial and magic abilities feel too separate, and I didn't feel like music and insults fit what I wanted for the character. So, I put the Spell Sword idea on the back-burner and played other characters.
I'm going to start in a new campaign soon and for this new character I returned to the idea of a Bard. I really looked at what abilities I thought would make them fit my idea of a Gish, while still making a competitive character. I realized that a Swords Bard with a 1 level dip in Sorcerer would give me a ton of the flavor I wanted and wouldn't fall behind in overall power (or at least not much). I'm going with a Divine Soul Sorcerer because I would get a few more options for spells and the first level ability will help keeping concentration on spells while in Melee. And I'm going to get features that emphasize that my character an accomplished sword-fighter. My overall image is a fencer who is also a generalized mage, and combines the two in combat. I'm calling the build The Spell Fencer.
(Why not Magic Initiate? Sword Bard needs some added defense since they don't have shield proficiency, and getting two feats would mean less Charisma. Why not Warlock/Paladin/etc. The flavor doesn't fit as well.)
Background - My character was previously a very talented and well-known fencer, but he was injured in a fire and lost mobility in his dominant hand, and also has a limp from jumping out of a window to escape the flames. He's re-learning how to fight using his non-dominant hand, and has been studying magic to help him catch up more quickly. He has become obsessed with controlling fire, and studying magic has awakened latent magical abilities in him. He hides his rapier in a cane and doesn't advertise his ability to fight or cast spells unless necessary. In combat he uses a lot of flashy sword moves and incorporates fire in his attacks, and out of combat he has a ton of low-key manipulative magic from the Bard spell list.
Level 1 - Bard 1. I'm starting as a Variant Human with the Defensive Duelist feat. (Moderately Armored might be better since it gives +1 Dex and the shield is better against multiple attacks in a round. But Defensive Duelist does improve with proficiency, and the chances of the multiple hits landing just over your base AC are fairly low. So this might not be the best choice, but I'm going Defensive Duelist for flavor reasons.) I'm starting as a Bard and taking Mage Hand (to use in place of my less functional hand at times) and Message as cantrips, and Detect Magic, Comprehend Languages, Healing Word, and Sleep as first level spells. I'll also get 3 Bardic Inspiration Dice.
Level 2 - Bard 1, Sorcerer 1. Taking one level of Divine Soul Sorcerer. Favored by the Gods gives me +2d4 to one attack or saving throw per short rest. As a lawful character, I get Bless added to my spell list for free. Then, I'm picking Green Flame Blade, Sacred Flame, Firebolt, and Control Flames as cantrips and Absorb Elements and Magic Missile (flavored as a bunch of rapiers) as spells. (Jack of All Trades and Song of Rest are delayed 1 level)
Level 3 - Bard 2, Sorcerer 1. I get to pick one more Bard spell, so I'm taking Command. I get Jack of All Trades and Song of Rest, and because I'm combining full casting classes I get 2nd level spell slots. (2nd level spells, Expertise, and Subclass are delayed)
Level 4 - Bard 3, Sorcerer 1. I get 2nd level spells, so I pick Mirror Image and trade out Command for Suggestion. I also get Expertise, Dueling Fighting Style, Medium Armor, I can use my sword as a spellcasting focus, and I can use Bardic Inspiration for Flourishes. (the ASI is delayed, as is my 3rd Bard Cantrip)
Level 5 - Bard 4, Sorcerer 1. I pick Invisibility, and I trade Detect Magic for Calm Emotions. My extra Bard Cantrip is Prestidigitation (to light & snuff out fires). I have 3rd level spell slots. Also, my proficiency increases, and cantrips all do more damage. Green Flame Blade in particular does an extra d8 to the target and an extra d8 to a second creature within 5'. I also get an ASI, and increasing Charisma will increase spell saves, spell attacks, number of Bardic Inspiration, social skills, and it will add a bit to Green Flame Blade damage. (Font of inspiration, larger inspiration die, and 3rd level spells are delayed).
Level 6 - Bard 5, Sorcerer 1. I get 3rd level spells, so I pick Leomund's Tiny Hut. I also switch Sleep for Slow. I also get Font of Inspiration and larger inspiration die, so my Flourishes are more effective. (Countercharm and my 2nd attack are delayed)
Level 7 - Bard 6, Sorcerer 1. I pick Dispel Magic, and get Countercharm, a Second Attack, and a 4th level spell slot. (4th level spells are delayed)
Level 8 - Bard 7, Sorcerer 1. For 4th level spells, I pick Dimension Door and trade Invisibility for Greater Invisibility. (ASI is delayed)
Level 9 - Bard 8, Sorcerer 1. I pick Polymorph, get an ASI (Charisma to 20), and get a 5th level slot and another proficiency increase. (the Song of Rest die increase and 5th level spells are delayed)
Level 10 - Bard 9, Sorcerer 1. For 5th level spells, I pick Synaptic Static and trade Comprehend Languages for Rary's Telepathic Bond. Song of Rest improves. (Bardic Inspiration improvement, a fourth bard Cantrip, and Magical Secrets are delayed)
We generally end campaigns before level 11, so that's as far as I'm looking. At level 10, I have - Cantrips: Control Flames, Firebolt, Green Flame Blade, Mage Hand, Message, Prestidigitation, Sacred Flame. 1st level: Absorb Elements, Bless, Healing Word, Magic Missile. 2nd level: Calm Emotions, Mirror Image, Suggestion. 3rd level: Dispel Magic, Leomund's Tiny Hut, Slow. 4th level: Dimension Door, Greater Invisibility, Polymorph. 5th: Synaptic Static, Rary's Telepathic Bond. Also, 5 Bardic Inspiration Dice per short rest, Favored by the Gods, Jack of All Trades, Song of Rest, Flourishes, Medium Armor, Expertise, Countercharm, and a Second Attack.
He's a full caster with a ton of great spell options. Defensive Duelist, Mirror Image, and Defensive Flourish can make him very tanky when needed. Favored by the Gods, Bless, and Absorb Elements offer further protection. Green Flame Blade, Flourishes, and Extra Attack give him a number of ways to mix it up in melee combat, and Firebolt (attack roll), Sacred Flame (wis save), Magic Missile (auto hit), and Synaptic Static (a psychic fireball) give him a variety of ranged approaches. And, a lot of the spells offer great out-of-combat utility and support. Overall, a well rounded character.
As with all multiclass dips, you get some abilities up front but then delay your main class features. In this case, I think that the Sorcerer spells and ability sync well with this character's playstyle, and do a lot to make up for the delayed abilities. Flourishes and Extra Attack are pushed back, but Green Flame Blade can do a fair amount of damage in the right circumstances, and other cantrips offer improved ranged attacks. And while higher level spells are delayed, Bless is an extremely effective use of concentration (bonus to all attacks and saves, including concentration, for me and 2+ others). The other Sorcerer spells fill in gaps and scale well (except Magic Missile, but I just like that spell). And spell slots, proficiency, and cantrip damage continues to scale with overall character level. I wouldn't argue that this is stronger than a pure Bard (since the delayed features are often extremely good), but it has different strengths and weaknesses and I don't think it will feel like it's falling behind the rest of the party at any point.
I think that should work out fine. I'm doing a Divine Soul dip on my level 10 Lore bard right now (I am so goddamn tired of not having a strong attack cantrip) and I think it's a potent choice. I may do three levels (We'll be going to T3, possibly 4) of Sorcerer to do some serious shenanigans with Quicken spell and cantrips like Booming Blade. With Swords, it's even better (Shield spell, Defensive Flourish, Mirror Image). Shadow Blade is a decent concentration option for your higher level slots at that point, because you can up cast it and make your two attacks hit really hard, and then quicken a booming blade for a bonus action.
That sounds pretty good. I also wanted to make a gish, but I took an alternate route, specifically limiting my spellcasting to about half caster levels. Where was that? Ahh ..
Which brings me to my personal anecdote about my current character. I was a veteran roleplayer, but still pretty new to D&D. My DM had tried to run a game of 3.5, but it died after one session so when I recycled the character for his 5Ed game, I still thought of him as my first D&D character. I love bards and wanted to play a gish, someone who uses magic to enhance their swordplay rather than a spellcaster who occasionally swings a sword, so I chose to play a College of Swords Bard. I requested that we start at level 3 because I wanted everyone to have some sort of signature style inherent in their gameplay and I saw the subclasses as adding that, just my personal view. After half a dozen sessions and hitting level 4 I finally had gained enough knowledge about 5Ed to stop pulling out the books for basic stuff like attack rolls and spells and could think more critically about my gaming experience. I looked ahead and realized a bit glumly that Bards are full spellcasters and that I wasn't really going to be getting much better at swinging a sword than I already was, while my spells would far outstrip and outshine my martial skills. I could keep playing the same way I had been and start to look like a low level minion compared to my partymates, or I could switch my tactics and completely go against the playstyle that I wanted to play. Neither of these seemed fun for me, so I started looking around for options. My actually DM let me completely rebuild my character in another class for one session to try it out and I really enjoyed playing as a level 4 Swashbuckler Rogue, but I did miss all of the social utility that I had become accustomed to as a Bard, which was the other half of the playstyle I wanted, a charming gish. So after awhile I came up with a plan to have my cake and eat it, too.
I had always been a fan of Eilistraee and her sword dancers and wanted that grace to be a part of this character's gish style, so I reverted my character back to the 4th level Swords Bard and when I hit level 5 I took 1 level of Hexblade, reskinned as Eilistraee's Moonblade. Now my Dex and Cha were even at this time so there was no sudden disparity in sword skill to smooth over. We had also just escaped from a foray into the Underdark. The session was unavoidably cut short due to a scheduling issue and my DM was forced to handwave and teleport us back to Waterdeep and I asked him if it was okay to say that the sound of mysterious hunting horns led us back to the surface, which allowed me to write a dream sequence where my bard met Eilistraee and received her blessing. This allowed me to pick up Shield as well as proficiency with shields, which I reskinned as a cloak wrapped around an arm so I could be a spanish style rapier and cloak fencer. Booming Blade rounded out my magical melee skill set.
Then I started taking levels of Rogue, becoming a Swashbuckler at level 8, and getting my second ASI at level 9, which I put into Charisma. This means I'm using Charisma for melee, for spellcasting, and as an initiative boost, which allows me to grow as a swordsman and a spellslinger at the same time. Plotting out my levels ahead of time I intended to end roughly at Swords 6/ Hexblade 3/ Swashbuckler 11 because that maintains a character who is mainly a charming swordsman (I love Panache and the idea of just being that silver tongued that I can do that without a spell) but also has enough magic tricks up his sleeve to make that swordplay flashier. I wouldn't have any spells higher than 3rd level, which I viewed as a benefit since I mostly wanted spells that were utility and enhancement and not spells that were huge game changers in and of themselves, that didn't fit the character concept I wanted. At level 9 (Swords 4/Swashbuckler 4/Hexblade 1) any level I took would result in meaningful growth, which allowed me to still be responsive to the plot in how I progress in my plan. I just hit level 10 in my game, for example, and we're currently in a plot arc that has open terrain and military leanings so I took that level in Bard, allowing me to better support my Fighter partymate in his quest to take over as warlord of the local orc horde.
Since I made this post I have hit level 11 and am currently sitting at Swords Bard 5/Swashbuckler 5/Hexblade 1 and I'm having a blast. I am fast and mobile on the battlefield, I hit quite hard with Booming Blade + Sneak Attack + Steady Aim + Elven Accuracy, and I'm still charming as all getout. I probably won't go for Bard 6 as Steady Aim has made Extra Attack less attractive. I was pretty much done with the build at level 9, though, and anything else going forward will be totally story dependent.
I’m hesitant to take more multiclass levels though because high level spells really nice. Leomund’s Tiny Hut, Dimension Door, and Greater Invisibility are really powerful and give the party options that wouldn’t exist otherwise. And you eventually would get stuff like Forcecage & Foresight, plus crazy magical secrets picks.
It all depends on what you want for your character, though.
I’m hesitant to take more multiclass levels though because high level spells really nice. Leomund’s Tiny Hut, Dimension Door, and Greater Invisibility are really powerful and give the party options that wouldn’t exist otherwise. And you eventually would get stuff like Forcecage & Foresight, plus crazy magical secrets picks.
It all depends on what you want for your character, though.
Oh for sure! I multiclassed specifically in order to cut off access to the higher level spells because I didn't want to play a full caster, I wanted to play a martial half caster of a certain style that didn't seem to be possible with the current subclasses.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Here's what I came up with for this sort of build -
1) Custom Origin, Hexblade. This character pulled themselves out of the gutter with the help of a shadow entity that took the form of a sword (probably a rapier) and taught them to use it. He gets in with a circus troupe after pulling himself out of his broken state. Feat: Eldritch Adept - Agonizing Blast
2-7) College of Blades - he's been an adventurer for a while, and still relies on this shadowy patron, but he's worked his way up as an adventurer and performer.
8-11) Sorcerer (Shadow) - He discovers what the shadow entity must have always known - that there was something of the shadow within his blood all along. He leans into this new magic.
By 11th level, you have a very powerful Gish character with wonderful support options, lots of choices in and out of combat, and a fun backstory to boot.
Thought of this Cantrip this morning. It would go a long way to making Bards better combatants without having to do the token dip into Hexblade -
Flourish Bard Cantrip S, M Bonus Action Target Self
You flourish the weapon in your hand. For the next minute, you may use your spellcasting ability to determine your bonus to hit and damage when using that weapon.
I kinda don't think Bards really need to be better at stuff, they're already so good at so much. That said, Bards can already pick up Shillelagh if they want at level 10 or level 6 if they're Lore Bards. And it will use Charisma if they do.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
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Hey all,
I've been playing 5e for a few years now. I love the idea of a Spell Sword Gish (character that mixes martial abilities with spellcasting), but none of the pre-built options in 5e fit the vision that I have in mind. Bards are close, but their martial and magic abilities feel too separate, and I didn't feel like music and insults fit what I wanted for the character. So, I put the Spell Sword idea on the back-burner and played other characters.
I'm going to start in a new campaign soon and for this new character I returned to the idea of a Bard. I really looked at what abilities I thought would make them fit my idea of a Gish, while still making a competitive character. I realized that a Swords Bard with a 1 level dip in Sorcerer would give me a ton of the flavor I wanted and wouldn't fall behind in overall power (or at least not much). I'm going with a Divine Soul Sorcerer because I would get a few more options for spells and the first level ability will help keeping concentration on spells while in Melee. And I'm going to get features that emphasize that my character an accomplished sword-fighter. My overall image is a fencer who is also a generalized mage, and combines the two in combat. I'm calling the build The Spell Fencer.
(Why not Magic Initiate? Sword Bard needs some added defense since they don't have shield proficiency, and getting two feats would mean less Charisma. Why not Warlock/Paladin/etc. The flavor doesn't fit as well.)
Background - My character was previously a very talented and well-known fencer, but he was injured in a fire and lost mobility in his dominant hand, and also has a limp from jumping out of a window to escape the flames. He's re-learning how to fight using his non-dominant hand, and has been studying magic to help him catch up more quickly. He has become obsessed with controlling fire, and studying magic has awakened latent magical abilities in him. He hides his rapier in a cane and doesn't advertise his ability to fight or cast spells unless necessary. In combat he uses a lot of flashy sword moves and incorporates fire in his attacks, and out of combat he has a ton of low-key manipulative magic from the Bard spell list.
Level 1 - Bard 1. I'm starting as a Variant Human with the Defensive Duelist feat. (Moderately Armored might be better since it gives +1 Dex and the shield is better against multiple attacks in a round. But Defensive Duelist does improve with proficiency, and the chances of the multiple hits landing just over your base AC are fairly low. So this might not be the best choice, but I'm going Defensive Duelist for flavor reasons.) I'm starting as a Bard and taking Mage Hand (to use in place of my less functional hand at times) and Message as cantrips, and Detect Magic, Comprehend Languages, Healing Word, and Sleep as first level spells. I'll also get 3 Bardic Inspiration Dice.
Level 2 - Bard 1, Sorcerer 1. Taking one level of Divine Soul Sorcerer. Favored by the Gods gives me +2d4 to one attack or saving throw per short rest. As a lawful character, I get Bless added to my spell list for free. Then, I'm picking Green Flame Blade, Sacred Flame, Firebolt, and Control Flames as cantrips and Absorb Elements and Magic Missile (flavored as a bunch of rapiers) as spells. (Jack of All Trades and Song of Rest are delayed 1 level)
Level 3 - Bard 2, Sorcerer 1. I get to pick one more Bard spell, so I'm taking Command. I get Jack of All Trades and Song of Rest, and because I'm combining full casting classes I get 2nd level spell slots. (2nd level spells, Expertise, and Subclass are delayed)
Level 4 - Bard 3, Sorcerer 1. I get 2nd level spells, so I pick Mirror Image and trade out Command for Suggestion. I also get Expertise, Dueling Fighting Style, Medium Armor, I can use my sword as a spellcasting focus, and I can use Bardic Inspiration for Flourishes. (the ASI is delayed, as is my 3rd Bard Cantrip)
Level 5 - Bard 4, Sorcerer 1. I pick Invisibility, and I trade Detect Magic for Calm Emotions. My extra Bard Cantrip is Prestidigitation (to light & snuff out fires). I have 3rd level spell slots. Also, my proficiency increases, and cantrips all do more damage. Green Flame Blade in particular does an extra d8 to the target and an extra d8 to a second creature within 5'. I also get an ASI, and increasing Charisma will increase spell saves, spell attacks, number of Bardic Inspiration, social skills, and it will add a bit to Green Flame Blade damage. (Font of inspiration, larger inspiration die, and 3rd level spells are delayed).
Level 6 - Bard 5, Sorcerer 1. I get 3rd level spells, so I pick Leomund's Tiny Hut. I also switch Sleep for Slow. I also get Font of Inspiration and larger inspiration die, so my Flourishes are more effective. (Countercharm and my 2nd attack are delayed)
Level 7 - Bard 6, Sorcerer 1. I pick Dispel Magic, and get Countercharm, a Second Attack, and a 4th level spell slot. (4th level spells are delayed)
Level 8 - Bard 7, Sorcerer 1. For 4th level spells, I pick Dimension Door and trade Invisibility for Greater Invisibility. (ASI is delayed)
Level 9 - Bard 8, Sorcerer 1. I pick Polymorph, get an ASI (Charisma to 20), and get a 5th level slot and another proficiency increase. (the Song of Rest die increase and 5th level spells are delayed)
Level 10 - Bard 9, Sorcerer 1. For 5th level spells, I pick Synaptic Static and trade Comprehend Languages for Rary's Telepathic Bond. Song of Rest improves. (Bardic Inspiration improvement, a fourth bard Cantrip, and Magical Secrets are delayed)
We generally end campaigns before level 11, so that's as far as I'm looking. At level 10, I have - Cantrips: Control Flames, Firebolt, Green Flame Blade, Mage Hand, Message, Prestidigitation, Sacred Flame. 1st level: Absorb Elements, Bless, Healing Word, Magic Missile. 2nd level: Calm Emotions, Mirror Image, Suggestion. 3rd level: Dispel Magic, Leomund's Tiny Hut, Slow. 4th level: Dimension Door, Greater Invisibility, Polymorph. 5th: Synaptic Static, Rary's Telepathic Bond. Also, 5 Bardic Inspiration Dice per short rest, Favored by the Gods, Jack of All Trades, Song of Rest, Flourishes, Medium Armor, Expertise, Countercharm, and a Second Attack.
He's a full caster with a ton of great spell options. Defensive Duelist, Mirror Image, and Defensive Flourish can make him very tanky when needed. Favored by the Gods, Bless, and Absorb Elements offer further protection. Green Flame Blade, Flourishes, and Extra Attack give him a number of ways to mix it up in melee combat, and Firebolt (attack roll), Sacred Flame (wis save), Magic Missile (auto hit), and Synaptic Static (a psychic fireball) give him a variety of ranged approaches. And, a lot of the spells offer great out-of-combat utility and support. Overall, a well rounded character.
As with all multiclass dips, you get some abilities up front but then delay your main class features. In this case, I think that the Sorcerer spells and ability sync well with this character's playstyle, and do a lot to make up for the delayed abilities. Flourishes and Extra Attack are pushed back, but Green Flame Blade can do a fair amount of damage in the right circumstances, and other cantrips offer improved ranged attacks. And while higher level spells are delayed, Bless is an extremely effective use of concentration (bonus to all attacks and saves, including concentration, for me and 2+ others). The other Sorcerer spells fill in gaps and scale well (except Magic Missile, but I just like that spell). And spell slots, proficiency, and cantrip damage continues to scale with overall character level. I wouldn't argue that this is stronger than a pure Bard (since the delayed features are often extremely good), but it has different strengths and weaknesses and I don't think it will feel like it's falling behind the rest of the party at any point.
I think that should work out fine. I'm doing a Divine Soul dip on my level 10 Lore bard right now (I am so goddamn tired of not having a strong attack cantrip) and I think it's a potent choice. I may do three levels (We'll be going to T3, possibly 4) of Sorcerer to do some serious shenanigans with Quicken spell and cantrips like Booming Blade. With Swords, it's even better (Shield spell, Defensive Flourish, Mirror Image). Shadow Blade is a decent concentration option for your higher level slots at that point, because you can up cast it and make your two attacks hit really hard, and then quicken a booming blade for a bonus action.
That sounds pretty good. I also wanted to make a gish, but I took an alternate route, specifically limiting my spellcasting to about half caster levels. Where was that? Ahh ..
Since I made this post I have hit level 11 and am currently sitting at Swords Bard 5/Swashbuckler 5/Hexblade 1 and I'm having a blast. I am fast and mobile on the battlefield, I hit quite hard with Booming Blade + Sneak Attack + Steady Aim + Elven Accuracy, and I'm still charming as all getout. I probably won't go for Bard 6 as Steady Aim has made Extra Attack less attractive. I was pretty much done with the build at level 9, though, and anything else going forward will be totally story dependent.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Those sound like fun builds!
I’m hesitant to take more multiclass levels though because high level spells really nice. Leomund’s Tiny Hut, Dimension Door, and Greater Invisibility are really powerful and give the party options that wouldn’t exist otherwise. And you eventually would get stuff like Forcecage & Foresight, plus crazy magical secrets picks.
It all depends on what you want for your character, though.
Oh for sure! I multiclassed specifically in order to cut off access to the higher level spells because I didn't want to play a full caster, I wanted to play a martial half caster of a certain style that didn't seem to be possible with the current subclasses.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Here's what I came up with for this sort of build -
1) Custom Origin, Hexblade. This character pulled themselves out of the gutter with the help of a shadow entity that took the form of a sword (probably a rapier) and taught them to use it. He gets in with a circus troupe after pulling himself out of his broken state. Feat: Eldritch Adept - Agonizing Blast
2-7) College of Blades - he's been an adventurer for a while, and still relies on this shadowy patron, but he's worked his way up as an adventurer and performer.
8-11) Sorcerer (Shadow) - He discovers what the shadow entity must have always known - that there was something of the shadow within his blood all along. He leans into this new magic.
By 11th level, you have a very powerful Gish character with wonderful support options, lots of choices in and out of combat, and a fun backstory to boot.
Thought of this Cantrip this morning. It would go a long way to making Bards better combatants without having to do the token dip into Hexblade -
Flourish
Bard Cantrip
S, M
Bonus Action
Target Self
You flourish the weapon in your hand. For the next minute, you may use your spellcasting ability to determine your bonus to hit and damage when using that weapon.
Basically, Shillelagh for Bards.
I kinda don't think Bards really need to be better at stuff, they're already so good at so much. That said, Bards can already pick up Shillelagh if they want at level 10 or level 6 if they're Lore Bards. And it will use Charisma if they do.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!