If we're talking realism, if I get smacked really hard by a guy in armour wielding a bigass hammer who's up in my face, I think I'd shift my focus to him instead of running 30ft towards the small guy in the back, unless I was like a dragon or something else with a lot of hit points.
In addition, your examples on how physical positioning saves the wizard only really applies in small areas, a thin corridor , small room etc. On a decently sized battlefield, people can run around Spirit Guardians' radius, flying creatures can go over, ranged attackers can just move to a better position, most casters can get rid of Spirit Guardians with Dispel Magic etc. But it is true that Forge works well in those scenarios you described. However, that is also true of most other cleric subclasses that get heavy armour proficiency. Sure they may not have as high an AC as the Forge cleric, but at the very least they will have 18, and all clerics have access to Spirit Guardians. But one thing that no other cleric subclass gets is the ability to get consistent high AC, consistent weapon bonuses, damage resistances and weapon buff spells. All of those things are wasted if the cleric is kept in the back. Why would a 'support' subclass have resistance to weapon damage? Why would a 'support' subclass have many ways to buff their own weapons (and that's without being 'selfish'), if they were not supposed to use those weapons? Forge Clerics have so many things that make them good in melee, at least for a cleric subclass, so giving them Martial Weapon proficiency would make sense, and would help them be even better at their purpose, which is not support, but frontlining.
However, I'm sure you could also build a Forge Cleric based entirely around support, though I expect most Forge clerics are not like that.
The Forge Domain is geared more for support than combat. Most cleric domains are. This is okay.
Only one of its spells, searing smite is limited to just themselves. If they use Blessing of the Forge on their own weapon, they cannot cast magic weapon or elemental weapon on it. They can do decent damage with heat metal, but that's the extent of their direct damage spells.
And there's more to "tanking" than just wearing heavy armor. First, get the MMO thinking out of your head. The tactical game doesn't work that way. Few abilities can even penalize someone trying to attack someone else, and I can't think of a single one that forces one creature to attack another. Not even compelled duel, ironically. You need to think big picture.
*looks at Blessing of the Forge, Magic Weapon, Elemental Weapon and Protection from Energy*
"Huh, these can be slapped on me or an ally. This is like infusions. I can play support or go hard in the paint."
*looks at Searing Smite, Heat Metal, Wall of Fire, Animate Objects, Soul of the Forge, Divine Strike and Saint of Forge and Fire*
"Oh, they really want me to take hits and deal them out too."
Jounichi and Fateless, every cleric can play support. Not a news story. But the forge cleric is very obviously given a bunch of tools to make it beefier and more dangerous when trying to man the front lines. Denying that is just...weird. How obstinate do you have to be to climb on that hill? Also, it doesn't matter you can't stack blessing of the forge and magic/elemental weapon. You can throw blessing on your armor. Easy fix to a non issue
Maybe, just maybe, the truth lies somewhere in the middle? Could it be that the Forge Cleric is kitted for support and front-lining and gets to choose? How novel.
*looks at Blessing of the Forge, Magic Weapon, Elemental Weapon and Protection from Energy*
"Huh, these can be slapped on me or an ally. This is like infusions. I can play support or go hard in the paint."
*looks at Searing Smite, Heat Metal, Wall of Fire, Animate Objects, Soul of the Forge, Divine Strike and Saint of Forge and Fire*
"Oh, they really want me to take hits and deal them out too."
Jounichi and Fateless, every cleric can play support. Not a news story. But the forge cleric is very obviously given a bunch of tools to make it beefier and more dangerous when trying to man the front lines. Denying that is just...weird. How obstinate do you have to be to climb on that hill? Also, it doesn't matter you can't stack blessing of the forge and magic/elemental weapon. You can throw blessing on your armor. Easy fix to a non issue
Maybe, just maybe, the truth lies somewhere in the middle? Could it be that the Forge Cleric is kitted for support and front-lining and gets to choose? How novel.
Wait you mean a Cleric doesn't only have to heal and play support? :O Blasphemy!
Yeah it really makes no goddamn sense. I'd bet the Tempest was given martial weapons just so people could play one with a trident. Which is a joke because tridents are just expensive spears. Forge though. Who knows what happened there. Sometimes when I look at the placement of armor proficiency, martial weapon proficiency, potent spellcasting and divine strike among the cleric subclasses it just looks like the work of a petulant child. Someone just refusing to put things where they belong just so things aren't quite so nice and neat.
If we're talking realism, if I get smacked really hard by a guy in armour wielding a bigass hammer who's up in my face, I think I'd shift my focus to him instead of running 30ft towards the small guy in the back, unless I was like a dragon or something else with a lot of hit points.
In addition, your examples on how physical positioning saves the wizard only really applies in small areas, a thin corridor , small room etc. On a decently sized battlefield, people can run around Spirit Guardians' radius, flying creatures can go over, ranged attackers can just move to a better position, most casters can get rid of Spirit Guardians with Dispel Magic etc. But it is true that Forge works well in those scenarios you described. However, that is also true of most other cleric subclasses that get heavy armour proficiency. Sure they may not have as high an AC as the Forge cleric, but at the very least they will have 18, and all clerics have access to Spirit Guardians. But one thing that no other cleric subclass gets is the ability to get consistent high AC, consistent weapon bonuses, damage resistances and weapon buff spells. All of those things are wasted if the cleric is kept in the back. Why would a 'support' subclass have resistance to weapon damage? Why would a 'support' subclass have many ways to buff their own weapons (and that's without being 'selfish'), if they were not supposed to use those weapons? Forge Clerics have so many things that make them good in melee, at least for a cleric subclass, so giving them Martial Weapon proficiency would make sense, and would help them be even better at their purpose, which is not support, but frontlining.
However, I'm sure you could also build a Forge Cleric based entirely around support, though I expect most Forge clerics are not like that.
Sure... The melee can run around Spirit Guardians. It's a 30' circle. They can make it in one turn of movement. Assuming they started at the edge of it to begin with. They could use up their action for most classes to make it around but then they don't get all of their fancy attacks to do so AND they end up functionally in the same place as if they ran through the Spirit Guardians Effect, they only avoided some damage. And that still assumes that the Wizard is standing at the edge on the other side. So it may be even more movement after that. But you know. let's just forget about that because your white room circumventing it so all those other variables don't matter and let's just ignore the fact that one Cleric just by standing there has effectively wasted the action of basically any melee that is not a rogue or a Monk just by standing there if they should try.
Same goes for flying. It's still going to eat up movement to fly over it.
For Ranged Weapons. Sure they can move to a different position. But if my party is doing it's job We've got guys going after their ranged too. So depending on how successful they are. The enemy ranged may or may not have it's own hands full. But let's ignore that variable. White room thinking is superior. It's all about us. forget about the party. Forget about anything else that's in a wide open area that might get in their way... Forget about the Wizard being able to do things like Fog spells which blocks the ranged enemies trying to shoot at him in combination with the physical positioning of the cleric. none of that matters. Just our white room justifications why that positioning doesn't work as advertised despite the fact that it's not meant to stop everything or even be used as the only thing. It's just one basic thing.
It's not just narrow hallway tactics though that's where some see it easiest. It disrupts their movement even in more open areas. it can completely change a persons action because they can easily end up in a situation where they either have to take damage and fight difficult terrain, eat up their actions getting there, Or decide on a different target because they don't like the first two. meaning that Just standing there as a very basic tactic has done it's job. It's not meant to stop all things. It's meant to deter, delay, or block the average things because it is afterall a very basic tactic. With Very Basic Tactics there is always more that can be layered on top. Either by that same person or by another person in the party.
On top of that start trying some of these things in actual games. Specially if you use maps. You'll be surprised how often simple can work and change things. Specially in a group environment where others can add to it. Or you can add to others. Some simple things like Cloud spells can be almost annoyingly effective at times. And can be easy to stack other abilities or spells around for example.
Also. While your realism is to shift your focus to the guy with the hammer hitting you in the face. Go ahead. That's you. In a world with magic. I'm going to take out the guy that keeps healing his wounds. Or doing things to help that guy with the hammer hit me in the face. And i'm going to avoid the hammer idiot until I've done that and he's easier to deal with. Because that small guy? Let's get real. he's likely doing more damage to me and my party than the big idiot swinging the mace around with the limited effective range to his attacks. And the Guy that is keeping him healed up? can't keep him healed up if I beat him down. making the Big guy with the Hammer easier to take down after. Assuming he doesn't give up once his friends are gone. My only reason to go after the Big Idiot trying to hit me in the face with a hammer over his smaller friends? To show off and show just how capable I am because I beat him with all of his support going.
Yea, I think any intelligent NPC aware of spellcasters would not fall for the "Big guy with a maul" tactic. Simple beasts and monsters would, but an organized group of humanoids or moderately intelligent creatures? Nah.
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It's ok Ranger, you'll always be cool to me.. Unless druid gets another use for its wild shape charges.
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If we're talking realism, if I get smacked really hard by a guy in armour wielding a bigass hammer who's up in my face, I think I'd shift my focus to him instead of running 30ft towards the small guy in the back, unless I was like a dragon or something else with a lot of hit points.
In addition, your examples on how physical positioning saves the wizard only really applies in small areas, a thin corridor , small room etc. On a decently sized battlefield, people can run around Spirit Guardians' radius, flying creatures can go over, ranged attackers can just move to a better position, most casters can get rid of Spirit Guardians with Dispel Magic etc. But it is true that Forge works well in those scenarios you described. However, that is also true of most other cleric subclasses that get heavy armour proficiency. Sure they may not have as high an AC as the Forge cleric, but at the very least they will have 18, and all clerics have access to Spirit Guardians. But one thing that no other cleric subclass gets is the ability to get consistent high AC, consistent weapon bonuses, damage resistances and weapon buff spells. All of those things are wasted if the cleric is kept in the back. Why would a 'support' subclass have resistance to weapon damage? Why would a 'support' subclass have many ways to buff their own weapons (and that's without being 'selfish'), if they were not supposed to use those weapons? Forge Clerics have so many things that make them good in melee, at least for a cleric subclass, so giving them Martial Weapon proficiency would make sense, and would help them be even better at their purpose, which is not support, but frontlining.
However, I'm sure you could also build a Forge Cleric based entirely around support, though I expect most Forge clerics are not like that.
The Forge Domain is geared more for support than combat. Most cleric domains are. This is okay.
Only one of its spells, searing smite is limited to just themselves. If they use Blessing of the Forge on their own weapon, they cannot cast magic weapon or elemental weapon on it. They can do decent damage with heat metal, but that's the extent of their direct damage spells.
And there's more to "tanking" than just wearing heavy armor. First, get the MMO thinking out of your head. The tactical game doesn't work that way. Few abilities can even penalize someone trying to attack someone else, and I can't think of a single one that forces one creature to attack another. Not even compelled duel, ironically. You need to think big picture.
*looks at Blessing of the Forge, Magic Weapon, Elemental Weapon and Protection from Energy*
"Huh, these can be slapped on me or an ally. This is like infusions. I can play support or go hard in the paint."
*looks at Searing Smite, Heat Metal, Wall of Fire, Animate Objects, Soul of the Forge, Divine Strike and Saint of Forge and Fire*
"Oh, they really want me to take hits and deal them out too."
Jounichi and Fateless, every cleric can play support. Not a news story. But the forge cleric is very obviously given a bunch of tools to make it beefier and more dangerous when trying to man the front lines. Denying that is just...weird. How obstinate do you have to be to climb on that hill? Also, it doesn't matter you can't stack blessing of the forge and magic/elemental weapon. You can throw blessing on your armor. Easy fix to a non issue
Maybe, just maybe, the truth lies somewhere in the middle? Could it be that the Forge Cleric is kitted for support and front-lining and gets to choose? How novel.
Wait you mean a Cleric doesn't only have to heal and play support? :O Blasphemy!
Earth-shattering stuff, I know, Sutlo. I'm still shaking in my boots over the revelation ಥ_ಥ
Yeah it really makes no goddamn sense. I'd bet the Tempest was given martial weapons just so people could play one with a trident. Which is a joke because tridents are just expensive spears. Forge though. Who knows what happened there. Sometimes when I look at the placement of armor proficiency, martial weapon proficiency, potent spellcasting and divine strike among the cleric subclasses it just looks like the work of a petulant child. Someone just refusing to put things where they belong just so things aren't quite so nice and neat.
Sure... The melee can run around Spirit Guardians. It's a 30' circle. They can make it in one turn of movement. Assuming they started at the edge of it to begin with. They could use up their action for most classes to make it around but then they don't get all of their fancy attacks to do so AND they end up functionally in the same place as if they ran through the Spirit Guardians Effect, they only avoided some damage. And that still assumes that the Wizard is standing at the edge on the other side. So it may be even more movement after that. But you know. let's just forget about that because your white room circumventing it so all those other variables don't matter and let's just ignore the fact that one Cleric just by standing there has effectively wasted the action of basically any melee that is not a rogue or a Monk just by standing there if they should try.
Same goes for flying. It's still going to eat up movement to fly over it.
For Ranged Weapons. Sure they can move to a different position. But if my party is doing it's job We've got guys going after their ranged too. So depending on how successful they are. The enemy ranged may or may not have it's own hands full. But let's ignore that variable. White room thinking is superior. It's all about us. forget about the party. Forget about anything else that's in a wide open area that might get in their way... Forget about the Wizard being able to do things like Fog spells which blocks the ranged enemies trying to shoot at him in combination with the physical positioning of the cleric. none of that matters. Just our white room justifications why that positioning doesn't work as advertised despite the fact that it's not meant to stop everything or even be used as the only thing. It's just one basic thing.
It's not just narrow hallway tactics though that's where some see it easiest. It disrupts their movement even in more open areas. it can completely change a persons action because they can easily end up in a situation where they either have to take damage and fight difficult terrain, eat up their actions getting there, Or decide on a different target because they don't like the first two. meaning that Just standing there as a very basic tactic has done it's job. It's not meant to stop all things. It's meant to deter, delay, or block the average things because it is afterall a very basic tactic. With Very Basic Tactics there is always more that can be layered on top. Either by that same person or by another person in the party.
On top of that start trying some of these things in actual games. Specially if you use maps. You'll be surprised how often simple can work and change things. Specially in a group environment where others can add to it. Or you can add to others. Some simple things like Cloud spells can be almost annoyingly effective at times. And can be easy to stack other abilities or spells around for example.
Also. While your realism is to shift your focus to the guy with the hammer hitting you in the face. Go ahead. That's you. In a world with magic. I'm going to take out the guy that keeps healing his wounds. Or doing things to help that guy with the hammer hit me in the face. And i'm going to avoid the hammer idiot until I've done that and he's easier to deal with. Because that small guy? Let's get real. he's likely doing more damage to me and my party than the big idiot swinging the mace around with the limited effective range to his attacks. And the Guy that is keeping him healed up? can't keep him healed up if I beat him down. making the Big guy with the Hammer easier to take down after. Assuming he doesn't give up once his friends are gone. My only reason to go after the Big Idiot trying to hit me in the face with a hammer over his smaller friends? To show off and show just how capable I am because I beat him with all of his support going.
Yea, I think any intelligent NPC aware of spellcasters would not fall for the "Big guy with a maul" tactic. Simple beasts and monsters would, but an organized group of humanoids or moderately intelligent creatures? Nah.
It's ok Ranger, you'll always be cool to me.. Unless druid gets another use for its wild shape charges.