So... yeah. I'm going to go ahead and say it. I think the Grave domain is much better at keeping the party kicking than Life domain is. Thematically? Sure, no. But in practice? Well... allow me to elaborate.
Most people (at least, all people who have actually played a Cleric) agree that spending your turns in combat casting spells to try to outpace damage per round is a bad way to go. The math just doesn't support it. Even at level 1, your common orc's 1d12 + 3 is almost always going to outperform a cleric's 1d8 + 3 (or 1d4 + 3) revitalizing goodness. In fact, the most common advice is to forego casting any healing spells until a fellow PC is down, at 0 hp. And isn't that where the Grave domain really shines? I mean, max healing on a downed ally? Suddenly a high level slot on a casting of Healing Word doesn't seem like a bad way to go. And I just don't see the Life cleric's '2 + (spell level)' extra healing regularly beating that out, especially given its extremely poor scaling. Not to mention a Grave cleric gets this ability at 1st level, whereas the consummate healer Life cleric must wait until 17th to have the same effectiveness at bringing back felled buddies.
Thinking about the Blessed Healer ability? Pshaw. Pshaw, I say! The Grave cleric gets access to Vampiric Touch! Warcaster is basically a class prerequisite for cleric as it is, so having a concentration spell that both heals and does damage is an absolute godsend (heh). And speaking of dealing damage (which is universally accepted as the better way to help keep the party alive - to kill whatever's trying to kill you, first), the Grave cleric gets to really pee in someone's Wheaties with their Channel Divinity feature. A no-save way to impose vulnerability to an ally's attack? The party rogue will love you forever and ever, amen (heh again).
How about preventing damage from happening in the first place? Cleric gets 3-5 uses of no-spell-slot reaction to nullify an enemy's critical hit a day.
The 17th-level feature gets some shade, but I think of it as once-per-round free healing (seriously, your party is going to be dropping something once per round at this point), with none of the "up to half-health" limitations that further weigh down the Life Cleric.
So, in closing, sorry, Life cleric. We had a good run, we had some laughs. And hey, we'll always have Venice. Remember Venice? But, yeah, there's a (not so) new kid in town, and, well... it's not you. It's me. No, really.
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"I saw her first. Go find your own genetic time-capsule or, so help me, I'll cut you."
In fact, the most common advice is to forego casting any healing spells until a fellow PC is down, at 0 hp.
It might be common but it's pretty bad advice. That's a great way to ensure your teammates lose turns at best and get killed at worst.
The 17th-level feature gets some shade, but I think of it as once-per-round free healing (seriously, your party is going to be dropping something once per round at this point), with none of the "up to half-health" limitations that further weigh down the Life Cleric.
Yeah but a 13th level Life cleric heals ten times as much per turn with Regenerate.
I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say that Grave is better at keeping your party alive than Life is. Neither rates very high as far as "clerics I'd be interested to play". There's certainly nothing wrong with them but if I had to pick a teammate, I'd probably prefer to have my buddy playing a life cleric than a grave cleric.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
In fact, the most common advice is to forego casting any healing spells until a fellow PC is down, at 0 hp.
It might be common but it's pretty bad advice. That's a great way to ensure your teammates lose turns at best and get killed at worst.
I suppose, kind of depends on the turn order. For the most part, however, I've found that if a party member is going down, they're going to go down. It's rare that there's much a cleric can do in a turn to keep a highly at-risk player from dropping. For me, I'd still prefer to side with removing the randomness of dice rolls. Being able to stabilize one party member with a casting of Spare the Dying as a bonus action and giving another a max roll healing spell because two party members have crap Dex saves helps, too.
The 17th-level feature gets some shade, but I think of it as once-per-round free healing (seriously, your party is going to be dropping something once per round at this point), with none of the "up to half-health" limitations that further weigh down the Life Cleric.
Yeah but a 13th level Life cleric heals ten times as much per turn with Regenerate.
That's a fair point, as well. Had to verify that the Disciple of Life feature comes online with all of the subsequent healing of Regenerate. Still, that's only good for that one character, and we're talking about 1 + 2 + 7 hit points per round after the casting with Regenerate versus (# of hit dice) of a downed monster per round with Keeper of Souls, only costing you your reaction. I'm not sure it equates to "ten times as much" when you consider your typical mid-CR monster averages around 13 hit dice, so that's an average of 13 free points of healing the Grave cleric gets to divvy out however they want. Though, I'll grant you, it comes 4 levels later.
I'm fairly new to playing a cleric, but I tend to fall into the category of healers that generally won't look in your direction unless you're down or you could be one-shot-killed. It just seems more effective to use my combat actions buffing PC attacks or debuffing the enemy than restoring a small-ish percentage of the damage taken - especially if there are multiple enemies on the field acting on different turns in the initiative order. Now, I'm sure my strategy will change once I get access to spells like Mass Cure Wounds and Heal. For now, my level 4 Grave Cleric mostly just casts Aid for HP boosts.
That said, I am a big fan of bonus-action healing. I'll absolutely hand you a handful of HP if I can still cast other spells that will boost your AC, slow down the enemy, or even take him out before your next turn.
We just glossing over bonus action ranged spare the dying?
bonus action now instead of action.
30ft range instead of touch.
To me this is a huge distinction between the 2 in terms of keeping people alive
Yeah, basically. I've been playing 5e for quite a while now. I like healer types, so I have a few divine sorcs and clerics under my belt. I've never taken spare the dying and I have never regretted not having it. Range and action type isn't going to change my opinion on that. I've also never had anyone die on my watch as a healer.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Thinking about the Blessed Healer ability? Pshaw. Pshaw, I say! The Grave cleric gets access to Vampiric Touch! Warcaster is basically a class prerequisite for cleric as it is, so having a concentration spell that both heals and does damage is an absolute godsend (heh).
Vampiric Touch is one of the most overrated spells in D&D. It deals 3D6 on a hit, and you don't get access to it until level 5. By that time, Toll The Dead deals either 2D8 or 2D12 damage. Then, once you reach level 8, you get to add your Wisdom modifier to your Cleric cantrip damage, and this will probably be a +4 boost (since at level 8 you get your second feat/ASI).
3D6 damage is 10.5 average damage per hit. 2D8 damage is 9 average damage per hit. 2D12 damage is 13 average damage per hit. 2D8+4 damage is 13 average damage per hit. 2D12+4 is 17 average damage per hit.
The amount of damage dealt by Vampiric Touch is so tiny (it's usually worse than a cantrip), and then you get half of that tiny amount of damage as healing. And it costs you a 3rd level spell slot. And you have to be in melee range and maintain concentration on it. But most importantly - you can't concentrate on any other spells while you're concentrating on Vampiric Touch.
I don't get why so many people talk about this spell? The completely useless spell Find Traps would be slightly more useful if it could tell people that Vampiric Touch is a trap. It's not worth using.
A race isn't won by who builds the faster car, but by which driver has the b*lls to push that car to its limits.
Clerics are awesome at everything. Period. Both Life and Grave are great healers. Both Grave and Life can keep your party alive just fine (or bring them back if that's a better tactical decision in the moment). Both Life and Grave have features that will make their enemies wish they had never been born. It's all about how you play them. I've played Life and I've played Grave, and I've enjoyed both. But the biggest difference between my clerics was not mechanical comparisons, but backstory and roleplaying. To me, the person behind the mechanics is what's most important. The backstory, the motivation, the idiosyncrasies. That's what makes a character memorable.
You could spend all night trying to crack some mysterious code to unlock one more spell here or one more hit point there. But the variability of the dice, and the variability of not knowing what's going to hit your party next will even out all those precariously-balanced equations by the time your first turn comes around in the initiative lineup.
That being said, when you curse a target with Path to the Grave, and then your party's assassin crits a Death Strike, and you're counting damage up in the hundreds from a single hit... yeah... that feels pretty cool.
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Tayn of Darkwood. Lvl 10 human Life Cleric of Lathander. Retired.
Ikram Sahir ibn Malik al-Sayyid Ra'ad, Second Son of the House of Ra'ad, Defender of the Burning Sands. Lvl 9 Brass Dragonborn Sorcerer + Greater Fire Elemental Devil.
Viktor Gavriil. Lvl 20 White Dragonborn Grave Cleric, of Kurgan the God of Death.
You make so many great points, it's hard to say with which I agree most. I've long been a lover of the humble-but-mighty cleric/priest, and it's nearly impossible to point to any one thing that makes clerics so-damn-powerful; they're kind of the complete package.
I certainly appreciate your thoughts on role-play as what truly makes a character memorable in a campaign. It's true that I've never thought back on a campaign and lamented, "That character would have been so much more fun to play, if only I hadn't made him a Dex-based elven Life cleric and I could have worn better heavy armor . . ." No, I remember how my Wood Elf Life Cleric Rowen helped to defeat the minions of Tiamat and stopped her resurgence in the Material Plane, thus earning himself a place in Evermeet and satisfying the vow he'd made to his dying human wife to serve as a champion of Eldath in her stead until the world no longer needed him. That's the juice; that's why we play.
That said, my intention was to create a dialogue about the theoretical effectiveness of a Grave cleric as compared to a Life cleric. Personally, I feel as though the Grave cleric's better versatility (spread of foci on healing, damage mitigation, and damage attenuation) makes him/her more capable at helping to keep a party alive throughout a campaign than the Life cleric, assuming the same player behind the sheet. Take Tom Kristensen and put him in the Nürburgring behind the wheel of a Corvette Z06 and then have him run it again with a Lamborghini Aventador and see how many seconds get shaved off on that second lap. Either way, he's sure to have a darn good time, but one's going to give you a little more bang for the buck.
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"I saw her first. Go find your own genetic time-capsule or, so help me, I'll cut you."
When it comes to single targeted healing at the low levels the Grave is tough to beat because they can maximize healing to downed targets, which is really nice, but once Life gets to 6th level they get to heal 2+level to both the person they're healing and themself. Life cleric is really good with Mass Healing Word and Mass Cure Wounds as well, which Grave can't boast the same way. Mass Healing Word gives life Cleric a bonus action to heal 1d4+4+5 to multiple targets and then an extra 5 to themselves on top of that. Assuming party of 4 that's an average of 11.5 healing to each plus 5 to yourself for a total of 51 average healing while a Grave cleric can cure wounds at the same level for 8×3 +4 or 28 total healing to someone who is already down.
When it comes to keeping everyone else alive Grave is great, but when it comes to keeping yourself alive Life will make sure you don't fall because it's abilities are so good with mass healing spells. And if you really want the extra healing then Beacon of Hope is a domain spell so you won't forget it.
I think your really underselling a lot of life cleric abilities. For one, their channel divinity could, with a single action, save everyone else in the party. Literally every other character could be down, and if the life cleric can be in the middle of them (or at least within 30' of them all), they all get back up. I don't think making the next attack against a single creature do double damage really does near as much to keep a party alive. And you can really tailor it to the needs, in a very fine-tuned manner, giving more to people that need it more. (up to the half max, of course)
The max healing is nice, but is it really all that? At level 1, we're probably talking about a healing word, since that's the one I see thrown around most in combat to get someone back up. If we say both clerics have a 16 wis, the grave cleric is going to heal 7. Say the life Cleric rolls a 1. So they heal 1 +3 (wis) +3 disciple of life, for a total of 7. So the life cleric minimum is the same as the grave cleric maximum. Which means 75 percent of the time, they are going to do better than the grave cleric. Now a second level healing word, the grave cleric will heal 11. Life Cleric minimum would be 2 +3 +4 so 9. I don't know enough about statistics to calculate how hard it would be for the life cleric to get to that 11, but I think it will happen at least half the time. Yes, as you start casting the spells with higher level slots, the grave cleric starts to pull ahead, but not really that much.
I'd acknowledge that cure wounds, with a maximized d8 would matter more. Grave cleric is doing 11. Life Cleric minimum 7, but half the time (roll of 5 or higher), the life cleric will do as well or better. (And not for nothing, the life cleric in their heavy armor, will be better able to get to a downed character to even use cure wounds) But also, that only matters if the target is down. If the target is up, the life cleric wins.
Say they are level 5, one character is down, but others are hurt. So they throw a mass healing word. Grave cleric, that downed character gets max (7 hp), the rest get whatever the roll comes up as. The life cleric minimum is 1 +3 +5 (9 hp) So it's obvious which is better there. Not to mention all the other characters, since none of them are guaranteed to get the max the downed character is getting.
And, like coder, I disagree about not healing during combats, I really think you should at least be open to it, and usually play my clerics that way. But lets say you don't heal during a fight. If most healing takes place after the fight, the life cleric is going to win every time. I'd much rather go into that second (or third) fight of the day having had the life cleric tending to me between battles.
Most people (at least, all people who have actually played a Cleric) agree that spending your turns in combat casting spells to try to outpace damage per round is a bad way to go. The math just doesn't support it. Even at level 1, your common orc's 1d12 + 3 is almost always going to outperform a cleric's 1d8 + 3 (or 1d4 + 3) revitalizing goodness. In fact, the most common advice is to forego casting any healing spells until a fellow PC is down, at 0 hp. And isn't that where the Grave domain really shines? I mean, max healing on a downed ally? Suddenly a high level slot on a casting of Healing Word doesn't seem like a bad way to go. And I just don't see the Life cleric's '2 + (spell level)' extra healing regularly beating that out, especially given its extremely poor scaling. Not to mention a Grave cleric gets this ability at 1st level, whereas the consummate healer Life cleric must wait until 17th to have the same effectiveness at bringing back felled buddies.
The math does support it. The Orc won't have a 100% chance to hit. Quite possibly he'll have under a 50% chance to hit. Heals have a 100% chance to hit. And the Life Cleric's Cure Wounds will be 1D8+6, not 1D8+3.
A high level slot casting Healing Word is still a bad way to go, even if you're getting 4 HP per spell level instead of 1D4 per spell level. High level spell slots should not be used on Healing Word. Cure Wounds provides 1D8 per spell level (plus 1 more if you're a Life Cleric), and that's an average of 4.5 or 5.5 per spell level, which beats out a Grave Cleric's Healing Word on a downed ally. And the base healing of the Life Cleric's Cure Wounds will be 2 points higher than the base healing of the Grave Cleric's Healing Word.
A Grave Cleric gets Wisdom plus 4 HP per level when casting Healing Word on a downed ally, and Wisdom plus 2.5 average HP per level when casting Healing Word on an ally that isn't down. A Life Cleric gets Wisdom plus 2 plus 3.5 average HP per level when casting Healing Word on an ally regardless of the ally's health.
So for a level 3 Healing Word with 16 Wisdom, the Grave Cleric gets a heal of 15, and the Life Cleric gets a heal of 8 plus 3D4, which is 15.5 average. It's not until you cast Healing Word with a level 4 spell slot that a Grave Cleric's heal on a downed target matches the Life Cleric's average heal on any target, and it's not until you're using a 5th level spell slot on Healing Word that a Grave Cleric's healing (on downed targets only) surpasses that of a Life Cleric's average healing with Healing Word on any target.
And while not everyone will agree that casting Healing spells on an ally during combat before they go down is a bad idea, everyone (except for you) will agree that casting Healing Word with a 5th level spell slot is a bad idea. Heck, once you get Mass Healing Word and can use it in a 3rd level spell slot, it doesn't make sense to upcast Healing Word in a 3rd level or higher spell slot.
Mass Healing Word for a Life Cleric gives 1D4+Wisdom +5 healing to everyone it targets (up to 6 targets) for a 3rd level spell slot (plus an extra 5 HP for the Cleric on top of that once he reaches level 6). Assuming 16 Wisdom, that will be an average of 10.5 healing per person, and quite easily 47 healing party wide. Whereas the Grave Cleric will do a guaranteed 15 healing on a single target and only if that target is down with zero health. If you don't have the Life Cleric bonus, it's going to be far worse, it will only be 1D4+Wisdom per person, which is going to just barely over half that at just 5.5 healing per person. But still, if you heal at least three people, it's still beating out the Grave Cleric's maxed out upcasted Healing Word. So yeah, upcasting Healing Word is not a good idea.
And for a 5th level spell slot, we can cast Mass Cure Wounds which (assuming 16 Wisdom again) gives 3D8+3 to up to 6 creatures within 30 ft (or 3D8 plus 10 for a Life Cleric) which comes out to be 16.5 average healing per party member or 23.5 average healing per party member for a Life Cleric (plus an additional heal of 7 on the Life Cleric). Upcasting Healing Word in a 5th level spell slot gives 23 healing on a single target if that single target is at zero health. A Life Cleric's Mass Cure Wounds has an average healing very slightly higher than that per person, but can target six people instead of one! A non-life Cleric gets just over 70% of that on average per person, but can target up to 6 people, whereas your upcast Healing Word can only target one person.
Once we get to a 6th level spell slot, there's Heal, a flat 70 HP to a single target (78 if you're a Life Cleric, plus another 8 on you), along with removing Blindness, Deafness, and diseases. Much better than a 27 healing from an upcasted Healing Word from a Grave Cleric on a downed target.
Hopefully we can go from 99.9% of people will agree that upcasting Healing Word is a bad idea (i.e. everyone but you) to 100% of people will agree that upcasting Healing Word is a bad idea. Healing Word and Cure Wounds are great options for your 1st and 2nd level spell slots, but your 3rd level or higher spell slots have too many powerful options available to be casting Healing Word or Cure Wounds with them.
Grave Cleric is fun and I like the Domain spells and features better. As it was said before, just healing isn't a viable option in D&D so, being a Life cleric that excels at a failing strategy seems kinda silly. As just about any domain, you will be a respectable healer. As Life, when you take healing out of the equation, you can't do anything else interesting exclusively.
Grave Cleric is fun and I like the Domain spells and features better. As it was said before, just healing isn't a viable option in D&D so, being a Life cleric that excels at a failing strategy seems kinda silly. As just about any domain, you will be a respectable healer. As Life, when you take healing out of the equation, you can't do anything else interesting exclusively.
You don't have to waste prepared slots on spells that you're going to need. Healing to stay ahead of damage isn't great, healing to get your party back up is great. Buffing is great.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Grave Cleric is fun and I like the Domain spells and features better. As it was said before, just healing isn't a viable option in D&D so, being a Life cleric that excels at a failing strategy seems kinda silly. As just about any domain, you will be a respectable healer. As Life, when you take healing out of the equation, you can't do anything else interesting exclusively.
The point of Life Domain is to make it so that when you need to heal you do it well. You have lots of different options to do so. Meanwhile, you are probably able to rock an 18 AC (with a shield) to take a hit and you can smack people upside the head or cantrip them to death while concentrating on Bless. Third level, you add Spiritual Weapon and fifth sees you upgrade from Bless to Spirit Guardians. The spell selection isn't likely to be much different for a Grave Domain. The bonus healing at 6 makes Warding Bond and interesting option for a tank or a very important character and heals to that character also heal you.
Most of this is assuming single target healing. If your party runs headlong into a horde of visits critters, a nasty Fireball or other AOE damage, life domain can efficiently buffer the lot.
[Tooltip Not Found] is strictly better and will often serve the same purpose. The fact that Grave gets Spare the Dying is nice. It does allow for a use of Cure Wounds instead of Healing Word as long as you've got two rounds leisure on a downed ally (one to analyze plus deal with the creature that downed the ally and one to Cure Wounds.)
The Grave Domain is likely to have similar AC but is more likely to be using cantrips exclusively, though they don't lose much if anything on finesse weapons if they so choose. Bows are likely and option if Save or Suck is not a good option and spell slots are scarce.
Grave does have some interesting things that they can do outside of spells and healing. Life gets interesting things to do with its spells because of its healing. In the end, it's different strokes for different folks.
After level 3 when I get 2nd level spells (read spiritual weapon) I generally use cure wounds more than healing word to get people up anyways. I'd rather make a bonus action attack with spiritual weapon than smack something with a hammer or cantrip anyways. I feel my action is less valuable offensively than is my bonus action unless I am planning to cast a leveled spell.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I have a Life cleric and it is fun as well. My personal opinion is that they have more bang in a small party of four as the solitary healer.I usually play in six pack groups though and two support classes that aren't dedicated healers works fine most of the time too. Just two abilities of the Grave cleric can reduce a ton of damage, the feature that negates a crit was already mentioned but, Ray of Enfeeblement was not. The big, strong monster doing half damage for at least 1 turn i s huge.
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So... yeah. I'm going to go ahead and say it. I think the Grave domain is much better at keeping the party kicking than Life domain is. Thematically? Sure, no. But in practice? Well... allow me to elaborate.
Most people (at least, all people who have actually played a Cleric) agree that spending your turns in combat casting spells to try to outpace damage per round is a bad way to go. The math just doesn't support it. Even at level 1, your common orc's 1d12 + 3 is almost always going to outperform a cleric's 1d8 + 3 (or 1d4 + 3) revitalizing goodness. In fact, the most common advice is to forego casting any healing spells until a fellow PC is down, at 0 hp. And isn't that where the Grave domain really shines? I mean, max healing on a downed ally? Suddenly a high level slot on a casting of Healing Word doesn't seem like a bad way to go. And I just don't see the Life cleric's '2 + (spell level)' extra healing regularly beating that out, especially given its extremely poor scaling. Not to mention a Grave cleric gets this ability at 1st level, whereas the consummate healer Life cleric must wait until 17th to have the same effectiveness at bringing back felled buddies.
Thinking about the Blessed Healer ability? Pshaw. Pshaw, I say! The Grave cleric gets access to Vampiric Touch! Warcaster is basically a class prerequisite for cleric as it is, so having a concentration spell that both heals and does damage is an absolute godsend (heh). And speaking of dealing damage (which is universally accepted as the better way to help keep the party alive - to kill whatever's trying to kill you, first), the Grave cleric gets to really pee in someone's Wheaties with their Channel Divinity feature. A no-save way to impose vulnerability to an ally's attack? The party rogue will love you forever and ever, amen (heh again).
How about preventing damage from happening in the first place? Cleric gets 3-5 uses of no-spell-slot reaction to nullify an enemy's critical hit a day.
The 17th-level feature gets some shade, but I think of it as once-per-round free healing (seriously, your party is going to be dropping something once per round at this point), with none of the "up to half-health" limitations that further weigh down the Life Cleric.
So, in closing, sorry, Life cleric. We had a good run, we had some laughs. And hey, we'll always have Venice. Remember Venice? But, yeah, there's a (not so) new kid in town, and, well... it's not you. It's me. No, really.
"I saw her first. Go find your own genetic time-capsule or, so help me, I'll cut you."
It might be common but it's pretty bad advice. That's a great way to ensure your teammates lose turns at best and get killed at worst.
Yeah but a 13th level Life cleric heals ten times as much per turn with Regenerate.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say that Grave is better at keeping your party alive than Life is. Neither rates very high as far as "clerics I'd be interested to play". There's certainly nothing wrong with them but if I had to pick a teammate, I'd probably prefer to have my buddy playing a life cleric than a grave cleric.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I suppose, kind of depends on the turn order. For the most part, however, I've found that if a party member is going down, they're going to go down. It's rare that there's much a cleric can do in a turn to keep a highly at-risk player from dropping. For me, I'd still prefer to side with removing the randomness of dice rolls. Being able to stabilize one party member with a casting of Spare the Dying as a bonus action and giving another a max roll healing spell because two party members have crap Dex saves helps, too.
That's a fair point, as well. Had to verify that the Disciple of Life feature comes online with all of the subsequent healing of Regenerate. Still, that's only good for that one character, and we're talking about 1 + 2 + 7 hit points per round after the casting with Regenerate versus (# of hit dice) of a downed monster per round with Keeper of Souls, only costing you your reaction. I'm not sure it equates to "ten times as much" when you consider your typical mid-CR monster averages around 13 hit dice, so that's an average of 13 free points of healing the Grave cleric gets to divvy out however they want. Though, I'll grant you, it comes 4 levels later.
"I saw her first. Go find your own genetic time-capsule or, so help me, I'll cut you."
We just glossing over bonus action ranged spare the dying?
bonus action now instead of action.
30ft range instead of touch.
To me this is a huge distinction between the 2 in terms of keeping people alive
Watch me on twitch
I'm fairly new to playing a cleric, but I tend to fall into the category of healers that generally won't look in your direction unless you're down or you could be one-shot-killed. It just seems more effective to use my combat actions buffing PC attacks or debuffing the enemy than restoring a small-ish percentage of the damage taken - especially if there are multiple enemies on the field acting on different turns in the initiative order. Now, I'm sure my strategy will change once I get access to spells like Mass Cure Wounds and Heal. For now, my level 4 Grave Cleric mostly just casts Aid for HP boosts.
That said, I am a big fan of bonus-action healing. I'll absolutely hand you a handful of HP if I can still cast other spells that will boost your AC, slow down the enemy, or even take him out before your next turn.
Yeah, basically. I've been playing 5e for quite a while now. I like healer types, so I have a few divine sorcs and clerics under my belt. I've never taken spare the dying and I have never regretted not having it. Range and action type isn't going to change my opinion on that. I've also never had anyone die on my watch as a healer.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Vampiric Touch is one of the most overrated spells in D&D. It deals 3D6 on a hit, and you don't get access to it until level 5. By that time, Toll The Dead deals either 2D8 or 2D12 damage. Then, once you reach level 8, you get to add your Wisdom modifier to your Cleric cantrip damage, and this will probably be a +4 boost (since at level 8 you get your second feat/ASI).
3D6 damage is 10.5 average damage per hit. 2D8 damage is 9 average damage per hit. 2D12 damage is 13 average damage per hit. 2D8+4 damage is 13 average damage per hit. 2D12+4 is 17 average damage per hit.
The amount of damage dealt by Vampiric Touch is so tiny (it's usually worse than a cantrip), and then you get half of that tiny amount of damage as healing. And it costs you a 3rd level spell slot. And you have to be in melee range and maintain concentration on it. But most importantly - you can't concentrate on any other spells while you're concentrating on Vampiric Touch.
I don't get why so many people talk about this spell? The completely useless spell Find Traps would be slightly more useful if it could tell people that Vampiric Touch is a trap. It's not worth using.
A race isn't won by who builds the faster car, but by which driver has the b*lls to push that car to its limits.
Clerics are awesome at everything. Period. Both Life and Grave are great healers. Both Grave and Life can keep your party alive just fine (or bring them back if that's a better tactical decision in the moment). Both Life and Grave have features that will make their enemies wish they had never been born. It's all about how you play them. I've played Life and I've played Grave, and I've enjoyed both. But the biggest difference between my clerics was not mechanical comparisons, but backstory and roleplaying. To me, the person behind the mechanics is what's most important. The backstory, the motivation, the idiosyncrasies. That's what makes a character memorable.
You could spend all night trying to crack some mysterious code to unlock one more spell here or one more hit point there. But the variability of the dice, and the variability of not knowing what's going to hit your party next will even out all those precariously-balanced equations by the time your first turn comes around in the initiative lineup.
That being said, when you curse a target with Path to the Grave, and then your party's assassin crits a Death Strike, and you're counting damage up in the hundreds from a single hit... yeah... that feels pretty cool.
Tayn of Darkwood. Lvl 10 human Life Cleric of Lathander. Retired.
Ikram Sahir ibn Malik al-Sayyid Ra'ad, Second Son of the House of Ra'ad, Defender of the Burning Sands. Lvl 9 Brass Dragonborn Sorcerer + Greater Fire Elemental Devil.
Viktor Gavriil. Lvl 20 White Dragonborn Grave Cleric, of Kurgan the God of Death.
Anzio Faro. Lvl 5 Prot. Aasimar Light Cleric.
Tayn of Darkwood:
You make so many great points, it's hard to say with which I agree most. I've long been a lover of the humble-but-mighty cleric/priest, and it's nearly impossible to point to any one thing that makes clerics so-damn-powerful; they're kind of the complete package.
I certainly appreciate your thoughts on role-play as what truly makes a character memorable in a campaign. It's true that I've never thought back on a campaign and lamented, "That character would have been so much more fun to play, if only I hadn't made him a Dex-based elven Life cleric and I could have worn better heavy armor . . ." No, I remember how my Wood Elf Life Cleric Rowen helped to defeat the minions of Tiamat and stopped her resurgence in the Material Plane, thus earning himself a place in Evermeet and satisfying the vow he'd made to his dying human wife to serve as a champion of Eldath in her stead until the world no longer needed him. That's the juice; that's why we play.
That said, my intention was to create a dialogue about the theoretical effectiveness of a Grave cleric as compared to a Life cleric. Personally, I feel as though the Grave cleric's better versatility (spread of foci on healing, damage mitigation, and damage attenuation) makes him/her more capable at helping to keep a party alive throughout a campaign than the Life cleric, assuming the same player behind the sheet. Take Tom Kristensen and put him in the Nürburgring behind the wheel of a Corvette Z06 and then have him run it again with a Lamborghini Aventador and see how many seconds get shaved off on that second lap. Either way, he's sure to have a darn good time, but one's going to give you a little more bang for the buck.
"I saw her first. Go find your own genetic time-capsule or, so help me, I'll cut you."
When it comes to single targeted healing at the low levels the Grave is tough to beat because they can maximize healing to downed targets, which is really nice, but once Life gets to 6th level they get to heal 2+level to both the person they're healing and themself. Life cleric is really good with Mass Healing Word and Mass Cure Wounds as well, which Grave can't boast the same way. Mass Healing Word gives life Cleric a bonus action to heal 1d4+4+5 to multiple targets and then an extra 5 to themselves on top of that. Assuming party of 4 that's an average of 11.5 healing to each plus 5 to yourself for a total of 51 average healing while a Grave cleric can cure wounds at the same level for 8×3 +4 or 28 total healing to someone who is already down.
When it comes to keeping everyone else alive Grave is great, but when it comes to keeping yourself alive Life will make sure you don't fall because it's abilities are so good with mass healing spells. And if you really want the extra healing then Beacon of Hope is a domain spell so you won't forget it.
I think your really underselling a lot of life cleric abilities. For one, their channel divinity could, with a single action, save everyone else in the party. Literally every other character could be down, and if the life cleric can be in the middle of them (or at least within 30' of them all), they all get back up. I don't think making the next attack against a single creature do double damage really does near as much to keep a party alive. And you can really tailor it to the needs, in a very fine-tuned manner, giving more to people that need it more. (up to the half max, of course)
The max healing is nice, but is it really all that? At level 1, we're probably talking about a healing word, since that's the one I see thrown around most in combat to get someone back up. If we say both clerics have a 16 wis, the grave cleric is going to heal 7. Say the life Cleric rolls a 1. So they heal 1 +3 (wis) +3 disciple of life, for a total of 7. So the life cleric minimum is the same as the grave cleric maximum. Which means 75 percent of the time, they are going to do better than the grave cleric. Now a second level healing word, the grave cleric will heal 11. Life Cleric minimum would be 2 +3 +4 so 9. I don't know enough about statistics to calculate how hard it would be for the life cleric to get to that 11, but I think it will happen at least half the time. Yes, as you start casting the spells with higher level slots, the grave cleric starts to pull ahead, but not really that much.
I'd acknowledge that cure wounds, with a maximized d8 would matter more. Grave cleric is doing 11. Life Cleric minimum 7, but half the time (roll of 5 or higher), the life cleric will do as well or better. (And not for nothing, the life cleric in their heavy armor, will be better able to get to a downed character to even use cure wounds) But also, that only matters if the target is down. If the target is up, the life cleric wins.
Say they are level 5, one character is down, but others are hurt. So they throw a mass healing word. Grave cleric, that downed character gets max (7 hp), the rest get whatever the roll comes up as. The life cleric minimum is 1 +3 +5 (9 hp) So it's obvious which is better there. Not to mention all the other characters, since none of them are guaranteed to get the max the downed character is getting.
And, like coder, I disagree about not healing during combats, I really think you should at least be open to it, and usually play my clerics that way. But lets say you don't heal during a fight. If most healing takes place after the fight, the life cleric is going to win every time. I'd much rather go into that second (or third) fight of the day having had the life cleric tending to me between battles.
The math does support it. The Orc won't have a 100% chance to hit. Quite possibly he'll have under a 50% chance to hit. Heals have a 100% chance to hit. And the Life Cleric's Cure Wounds will be 1D8+6, not 1D8+3.
A high level slot casting Healing Word is still a bad way to go, even if you're getting 4 HP per spell level instead of 1D4 per spell level. High level spell slots should not be used on Healing Word. Cure Wounds provides 1D8 per spell level (plus 1 more if you're a Life Cleric), and that's an average of 4.5 or 5.5 per spell level, which beats out a Grave Cleric's Healing Word on a downed ally. And the base healing of the Life Cleric's Cure Wounds will be 2 points higher than the base healing of the Grave Cleric's Healing Word.
A Grave Cleric gets Wisdom plus 4 HP per level when casting Healing Word on a downed ally, and Wisdom plus 2.5 average HP per level when casting Healing Word on an ally that isn't down. A Life Cleric gets Wisdom plus 2 plus 3.5 average HP per level when casting Healing Word on an ally regardless of the ally's health.
So for a level 3 Healing Word with 16 Wisdom, the Grave Cleric gets a heal of 15, and the Life Cleric gets a heal of 8 plus 3D4, which is 15.5 average. It's not until you cast Healing Word with a level 4 spell slot that a Grave Cleric's heal on a downed target matches the Life Cleric's average heal on any target, and it's not until you're using a 5th level spell slot on Healing Word that a Grave Cleric's healing (on downed targets only) surpasses that of a Life Cleric's average healing with Healing Word on any target.
And while not everyone will agree that casting Healing spells on an ally during combat before they go down is a bad idea, everyone (except for you) will agree that casting Healing Word with a 5th level spell slot is a bad idea. Heck, once you get Mass Healing Word and can use it in a 3rd level spell slot, it doesn't make sense to upcast Healing Word in a 3rd level or higher spell slot.
Mass Healing Word for a Life Cleric gives 1D4+Wisdom +5 healing to everyone it targets (up to 6 targets) for a 3rd level spell slot (plus an extra 5 HP for the Cleric on top of that once he reaches level 6). Assuming 16 Wisdom, that will be an average of 10.5 healing per person, and quite easily 47 healing party wide. Whereas the Grave Cleric will do a guaranteed 15 healing on a single target and only if that target is down with zero health. If you don't have the Life Cleric bonus, it's going to be far worse, it will only be 1D4+Wisdom per person, which is going to just barely over half that at just 5.5 healing per person. But still, if you heal at least three people, it's still beating out the Grave Cleric's maxed out upcasted Healing Word. So yeah, upcasting Healing Word is not a good idea.
And for a 5th level spell slot, we can cast Mass Cure Wounds which (assuming 16 Wisdom again) gives 3D8+3 to up to 6 creatures within 30 ft (or 3D8 plus 10 for a Life Cleric) which comes out to be 16.5 average healing per party member or 23.5 average healing per party member for a Life Cleric (plus an additional heal of 7 on the Life Cleric). Upcasting Healing Word in a 5th level spell slot gives 23 healing on a single target if that single target is at zero health. A Life Cleric's Mass Cure Wounds has an average healing very slightly higher than that per person, but can target six people instead of one! A non-life Cleric gets just over 70% of that on average per person, but can target up to 6 people, whereas your upcast Healing Word can only target one person.
Once we get to a 6th level spell slot, there's Heal, a flat 70 HP to a single target (78 if you're a Life Cleric, plus another 8 on you), along with removing Blindness, Deafness, and diseases. Much better than a 27 healing from an upcasted Healing Word from a Grave Cleric on a downed target.
Hopefully we can go from 99.9% of people will agree that upcasting Healing Word is a bad idea (i.e. everyone but you) to 100% of people will agree that upcasting Healing Word is a bad idea. Healing Word and Cure Wounds are great options for your 1st and 2nd level spell slots, but your 3rd level or higher spell slots have too many powerful options available to be casting Healing Word or Cure Wounds with them.
Grave Cleric is fun and I like the Domain spells and features better. As it was said before, just healing isn't a viable option in D&D so, being a Life cleric that excels at a failing strategy seems kinda silly. As just about any domain, you will be a respectable healer. As Life, when you take healing out of the equation, you can't do anything else interesting exclusively.
You don't have to waste prepared slots on spells that you're going to need. Healing to stay ahead of damage isn't great, healing to get your party back up is great. Buffing is great.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
The point of Life Domain is to make it so that when you need to heal you do it well. You have lots of different options to do so. Meanwhile, you are probably able to rock an 18 AC (with a shield) to take a hit and you can smack people upside the head or cantrip them to death while concentrating on Bless. Third level, you add Spiritual Weapon and fifth sees you upgrade from Bless to Spirit Guardians. The spell selection isn't likely to be much different for a Grave Domain. The bonus healing at 6 makes Warding Bond and interesting option for a tank or a very important character and heals to that character also heal you.
Most of this is assuming single target healing. If your party runs headlong into a horde of visits critters, a nasty Fireball or other AOE damage, life domain can efficiently buffer the lot.
[Tooltip Not Found] is strictly better and will often serve the same purpose. The fact that Grave gets Spare the Dying is nice. It does allow for a use of Cure Wounds instead of Healing Word as long as you've got two rounds leisure on a downed ally (one to analyze plus deal with the creature that downed the ally and one to Cure Wounds.)
The Grave Domain is likely to have similar AC but is more likely to be using cantrips exclusively, though they don't lose much if anything on finesse weapons if they so choose. Bows are likely and option if Save or Suck is not a good option and spell slots are scarce.
Grave does have some interesting things that they can do outside of spells and healing. Life gets interesting things to do with its spells because of its healing. In the end, it's different strokes for different folks.
After level 3 when I get 2nd level spells (read spiritual weapon) I generally use cure wounds more than healing word to get people up anyways. I'd rather make a bonus action attack with spiritual weapon than smack something with a hammer or cantrip anyways. I feel my action is less valuable offensively than is my bonus action unless I am planning to cast a leveled spell.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I have a Life cleric and it is fun as well. My personal opinion is that they have more bang in a small party of four as the solitary healer.I usually play in six pack groups though and two support classes that aren't dedicated healers works fine most of the time too. Just two abilities of the Grave cleric can reduce a ton of damage, the feature that negates a crit was already mentioned but, Ray of Enfeeblement was not. The big, strong monster doing half damage for at least 1 turn i s huge.