i get that clerics are meant to be like spell casters who can take a hit and are meant to be in the middle of combat and that is why you have simple weapon and medium armor proficiency, and why some subclasses further grant you martial weapon proficiency and heavy armor proficiency and on top of that empower your weapon strikes with divine energy in the form of divine strike, and i get that it is not meant to be as powerful as the proper martial classes, the problem i have is that using weapons seem to be an far inferior option for dealing damage compared to using the cantrips available to your class, especially when considering most only use a single one handed weapon and a shield and that you are going to try and increase your wisdom over your strength in most cases with your ability score increases. Granted cantrips require verbal and somatic components so they can be rather noisy and they can be counterspelled or affected by antimagic, but like it is just as easy for you to disarm somebody as it is for you to bind the hands and silence an spell caster, and it is not often you ever see an dead magic zone or somebody going around using 3rd level spell slots to stop an cantrip, it just seems like an significantly weaker option and i do not understand why
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Clerics don't have to be played as relying on spells. You don't always need high wisdom either. There is nothing stopping you using weapons and focusing on Str or Dex. Your heal spells are still extremely useful even if you had a wis mod of 0. They get plenty of self-buff spells which obviously don't need attack rolls or saving throws. Even Spiritual Weapon is still worth using - even without a wis mod, you may still hit with it and it doesn't use concentration or anything, so it's still useful.
Just because you're a Cleric doesn't mean you need to focus on Wis as a priority. There are many successful builds that can have it be secondary or even tertiary.
Nothing screams "don't piss off the cleric" more than the cleric who can cast Holy Weapon on their mace that already benefits from divine strike. Especially War Clerics with their +10 to attack when they need it.
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Until you pick up warcaster, you need something for opportunity attacks. If you have a magic weapon like a flame tongue or something And now you can really pile on the damage. You’re fighting something with a good DEX save so sacred flame keeps missing.
But tbh, I had a tempest cleric I played up to level 14 and I think I only used his weapon 3 or 4 times in the whole campaign. It was kind of a cool add on for those 3 or 4 times, though.
Cantrips also target saving throws, whereas weapon attacks are an attack roll. Your two main cantrip options either target a dexterity save or a wisdom save. At lower levels, adding your strength or dexterity modifier to the weapon's damage roll helps make weapon attacks as good as the cantrips. At higher levels, the enemy's saving throws are strong enough that weapon attacks are still just as good as the cantrips. Your chance of an enemy failing their wisdom save for Toll the Dead at higher levels is lower than your chance of landing an attack on the enemy when you do an attack roll. Also, at higher levels you can have magic weapons that make your weapon attacks better, whereas it's much harder to find magic items that make your cantrips better.
It would be nice if Clerics had a nice damage cantrip with an attack roll. But it was intentional that they weren't given this option. That's why my Tempest Cleric multiclassed as a Sorcerer to get the very thematic attack cantrips of Booming Blade, Shocking Grasp, and Ray of Frost. Dealing Thunder, Lightning, and Cold damage is extremely thematic for a Tempest Cleric, and it lets me overcome the really weak cantrip options that a Cleric is given.
It would be nice if Clerics had a nice damage cantrip with an attack roll. But it was intentional that they weren't given this option. That's why my Tempest Cleric multiclassed as a Sorcerer to get the very thematic attack cantrips of Booming Blade, Shocking Grasp, and Ray of Frost. Dealing Thunder, Lightning, and Cold damage is extremely thematic for a Tempest Cleric, and it lets me overcome the really weak cantrip options that a Cleric is given.
I have a level 1 tempest cleric in a campaign right now, and I'm debating doing this. Wisdom is currently 18. I'm wondering what to do with my level 4 ASI and/or to multiclass (at level 5)
Option 1) Straight cleric, ASI into wisdom boost, don't worry about melee as much Option 2) Magic initiate, wizard for BB, GFB, and shield or find familiar Option 3) ASI to Wisdom (hitting twenty), MC into Sorc (or wizard or warlock) for attack cantrips and class goodies.
I feel that option 3, multiclassing just to make melee a bit more damaging, feels like overkill. Those third level spells are kind of great. OTOH, using a feat for the ASI gimps wisdom (Attacks, saves, prepared spell.)
Don't forget warcaster. If you're going to be in melee, its really a must. (really, shield and weapon also makes it a must to be able to cast somatic spells). And tempest clerics are meant to be in melee, heavy armor, and that reaction to do thunder damage to someone who hits you. Also, you'll love it when you start getting concentration spells like call lightning. And an 18 wisdom is really solid. You can take the ASI at 8 and still be doing really well.
It would be nice if Clerics had a nice damage cantrip with an attack roll. But it was intentional that they weren't given this option. That's why my Tempest Cleric multiclassed as a Sorcerer to get the very thematic attack cantrips of Booming Blade, Shocking Grasp, and Ray of Frost. Dealing Thunder, Lightning, and Cold damage is extremely thematic for a Tempest Cleric, and it lets me overcome the really weak cantrip options that a Cleric is given.
I have a level 1 tempest cleric in a campaign right now, and I'm debating doing this. Wisdom is currently 18. I'm wondering what to do with my level 4 ASI and/or to multiclass (at level 5)
Option 1) Straight cleric, ASI into wisdom boost, don't worry about melee as much Option 2) Magic initiate, wizard for BB, GFB, and shield or find familiar Option 3) ASI to Wisdom (hitting twenty), MC into Sorc (or wizard or warlock) for attack cantrips and class goodies.
I feel that option 3, multiclassing just to make melee a bit more damaging, feels like overkill. Those third level spells are kind of great. OTOH, using a feat for the ASI gimps wisdom (Attacks, saves, prepared spell.)
I just don't know yet.
If you're content to get just one attack cantrip, the Spell Sniper feat is great. It doubles the range on Spiritual Weapon, and it will double the range on whatever attack cantrip you choose. If you choose Booming Blade you can use a reach weapon and get a 10ft range on your attacks. My Tempest Cleric is dexterity based and uses a shield in combination with a whip and has the spell sniper feat (which she used to get Thorn Whip). Thorn Whip uses Wisdom for the attack roll, and it can be used to pull enemies into your Spirit Guardians aura causing them to take the Spirit Guardians damage on your turn. Using Booming Blade with a whip is very thematic, and because of the spell sniper feat I can do it with a 10ft range.
Getting Shocking Grasp gives you an at will way to trigger the Tempest Cleric level 6 ability to knock enemies back 10ft when they deal lightning damage. And Ray of Frost has 120ft range for me because of the spell sniper feat. So all of my attack cantrips have different uses, which makes the game a lot more fun than just "i attack with my weapon" or "i attack with my one attack cantrip" each round during combat.
But of my four attack cantrips, two use Charisma (Shocking Grasp and Ray of Frost), one uses Wisdom (Thorn Whip), and one uses Dexterity (Booming Blade). So it's a very MAD strategy. I prefer to use Booming Blade because I can add my Dexterity modifier to the damage when I use this cantrip, whereas my other attack cantrips only use the sum of the dice rolls. That very high floor of damage on weapon attacks is a great thing about weapon attacks, especially in tier 1, but it's still useful in tier 2 as well. When I attack with Shocking Grasp, Ray of Frost, or Thorn Whip, there's a chance I could roll two 1s for my damage and deal just 2 points of damage. With Booming Blade, I'm guaranteed at least 5 damage if I roll two 1s for my damage, and an additional 2 points of damage minimum if the target moves. I really appreciate the higher damage floor, and that's why Booming Blade is my primary attack to cause damage, and the other cantrips are used situationally.
The situational use of using Thorn Whip to pull someone into the Spirit Guardians aura is a pretty awesome use. The Spirit Guardians aura is a Wisdom save, and enemies have a higher chance of succeeding a Wisdom Saving throw than I do of rolling too low on my attack roll. At least with Spirit Guardians, they still take half damage on a successful save. On cantrips, they would take no damage on a successful save (and they would take no damage on a missed attack, but missed attacks just don't happen as often as successful Wisdom saves).
The extra effect of triggering Spirit Guardians makes Thorn Whip an excellent choice for a Cleric that is taking an attack cantrip from another class. Even better, it uses your Wisdom for the attack roll, and not Intelligence or Charisma like some other cantrips. Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade will use your strength or dexterity for the attack roll, so they're also probably better options than Shocking Grasp, Ray of Frost, or other cantrips found on the Sorcerer, Warlock, and Wizard spell lists. Thorn Whip (when used to pull somebody into your Spirit Guardians aura), Booming Blade, and Green Flame Blade all have a very high damage floor because Thorn Whip would add half of 3D8 on top of your XD6 damage, and Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade allow you to add your Dexterity or Strength to the damage roll, as well as allowing you to add Divine Strike damage to the attack. Green Flame Blade also allows you to add your Charisma or Intelligence modifier as fire damage to an enemy adjacent to your primary target, so it's got that situational additional high floor of damage dealt.
I know I'm not alone in placing a high value on having a high floor for damage, as well as placing a high value on using an attack roll instead of forcing the enemy to do a saving throw. These two things are very important to me. One of my characters from a previous campaign was a Trickery Cleric that used Toll the Dead as his attack, and it was pretty frustrating to have only one attack option, and for that option to be forcing the enemy to do a Wisdom Saving throw, and for rolling low on the damage to happen a reasonable amount of the time, with no modifiers to add to the damage.
I think it's comparable to a cantrip within a few points of average damage. Lets assume 16(+3) to str so you can wear plate armor and a longsword, math below. Magic weapons will increase the damage you do and give you a better chance at hitting. Where as sacred flame requires a dex save and toll the dead required a wis save.
lvl 1: Weapon 1d8+3 (8) Sacred Flame 1d8 (5) lvl 5: W 1d8+3 (8) SF 2d8 (9) lvl 8: W 2d8+3 (12) SF 2d8 (9) lvl 11: W 2d8+3 (12) SF 3d8 (14) lvl 14: W 3d8+3 (17) SF 3d8 (14) lvl 17: W 3d8+3 (17) SF 4d8 (18)
It would be nice if Clerics had a nice damage cantrip with an attack roll. But it was intentional that they weren't given this option. That's why my Tempest Cleric multiclassed as a Sorcerer to get the very thematic attack cantrips of Booming Blade, Shocking Grasp, and Ray of Frost. Dealing Thunder, Lightning, and Cold damage is extremely thematic for a Tempest Cleric, and it lets me overcome the really weak cantrip options that a Cleric is given.
I have a level 1 tempest cleric in a campaign right now, and I'm debating doing this. Wisdom is currently 18. I'm wondering what to do with my level 4 ASI and/or to multiclass (at level 5)
Option 1) Straight cleric, ASI into wisdom boost, don't worry about melee as much Option 2) Magic initiate, wizard for BB, GFB, and shield or find familiar Option 3) ASI to Wisdom (hitting twenty), MC into Sorc (or wizard or warlock) for attack cantrips and class goodies.
I feel that option 3, multiclassing just to make melee a bit more damaging, feels like overkill. Those third level spells are kind of great. OTOH, using a feat for the ASI gimps wisdom (Attacks, saves, prepared spell.)
I just don't know yet.
But of my four attack cantrips, two use Charisma (Shocking Grasp and Ray of Frost), one uses Wisdom (Thorn Whip), and one uses Dexterity (Booming Blade). So it's a very MAD strategy.
Due to a racial bonus (homebrew), I'm using Shillelagh, so one design goal is to keep things as SAD as possible. CHA won't get higher than 14 due to my initial rolls (Unless I bump it with ASIs, but that's unlikely.) I can see upgrading to a magical STR weapon though, or perhaps using something like Gauntlets of Ogre Power.
Your point about using Spell Sniper for things like Spiritual Weapon is well taken though. The custom race is basically "bear person." I'm really looking forward to running around whacking people with a quarterstaff as a bear while wearing plate armor :)
The tempting feature of Sorc: If the campaign last long enough, three levels of Sorc gives twin spell and quicken. Both of which work with Booming Blade. Under certain conditions, that's two BB + Divine Strike attacks per turn.
Taking Thorn Whip will keep you Single Attribute Dependent because it is keyed to your wisdom. If you envision your bear in plate armor yelling "GET OVER HERE" like Scorpion from Mortal Kombat, you can have fun with the Thorn Whip cantrip. If you plan on using Spirit Guardians, its a pretty useful cantrip. If you plan on using something else for concentration, Thorn Whip is a lot less useful for a Cleric.
Honestly I feel that weapons are in /most/ cases a trap option. a lot of folks are going to tell me I'm wrong, etc etc but that's my opinion.
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I think it's comparable to a cantrip within a few points of average damage. Lets assume 16(+3) to str so you can wear plate armor and a longsword, math below. Magic weapons will increase the damage you do and give you a better chance at hitting. Where as sacred flame requires a dex save and toll the dead required a wis save.
lvl 1: Weapon 1d8+3 (8) Sacred Flame 1d8 (5) lvl 5: W 1d8+3 (8) SF 2d8 (9) lvl 8: W 2d8+3 (12) SF 2d8 (9) lvl 11: W 2d8+3 (12) SF 3d8 (14) lvl 14: W 3d8+3 (17) SF 3d8 (14) lvl 17: W 3d8+3 (17) SF 4d8 (18)
compare that then to an cleric subclass with potent cantrips, even if we assume that a light cleric, an blaster and healer would only go as far as 16 in their wisdom the combatant with the longsword will still be outmatched or only tied every single level except for the first few levels
lvl 1: Weapon 1d8+3 (8) Sacred Flame 1d8 (5) lvl 5: W 1d8+3 (8) SF 2d8 (9) lvl 8: W 2d8+3 (12) SF 2d8+3 (12) lvl 11: W 2d8+3 (12) SF 3d8+3 (17) lvl 14: W 3d8+3 (17) SF 3d8+3 (17) lvl 17: W 3d8+3 (17) SF 4d8+3 (21)
lvl 1: Weapon 1d8+3 (8) Sacred Flame 1d8 (5) lvl 5: W 1d8+3 (8) SF 2d8 (9) lvl 8: W 2d8+3 (12) SF 2d8+5 (14) lvl 11: W 2d8+3 (12) SF 3d8+5 (19) lvl 14: W 3d8+3 (17) SF 3d8+5 (19) lvl 17: W 3d8+3 (17) SF 4d8+5 (23)
like yes you can if you want go for more dangerous weapon options like the greataxe for a d12 in damage or greatsword for an 2d6, but the vast majority of people will not do that becuase the sword & board aestetic is perfect for an cleric
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Yes comparing potent cantrip to divine strike, cantrips are better.
If you only have access due to subclass, regular cantrips and divine strike are comparable. Weapon attacks also are boosted with magic weapons. Look at a dragon slayer weapon which adds 3d6 vs dragons, or something with 1d6 extra elemental damage and those numbers get much closer. Also feats like great weapon master or sharpshooter can add 10 damage on top of all that stuff, which I would claim does on average half as much as you are doing normally.
The other thing is all of the damage cantrips that clerics have access to are saving throw for nothing spells. Which means you are not rolling, which means you can not crit on those cantrips. There are ways around that such as feats or multiclassing to get attacking cantrips, but they are not available for potent cantrip as they are still not cleric cantrips.
In other words, a Cleric with Potent Spellcasting should rely on an cantrip for at will damage, and a Cleric with Divine Strike should rely on a weapon for at will damage.
In other words, a Cleric with Potent Spellcasting should rely on an cantrip for at will damage, and a Cleric with Divine Strike should rely on a weapon for at will damage.
Is that something that we can agree on?
cannot say i disagree with that, even when making this, i was just curious as to why they would give an inferior option to certain subclasses
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In other words, a Cleric with Potent Spellcasting should rely on an cantrip for at will damage, and a Cleric with Divine Strike should rely on a weapon for at will damage.
Is that something that we can agree on?
cannot say i disagree with that, even when making this, i was just curious as to why they would give an inferior option to certain subclasses
So your assertion is that the classes with Potent Spellcasting are superior to the classes with Divine Strike?
How do we try to calculate the role that Dex Save vs Attack roll has when comparing a cantrip to a weapon attack? And the value that a magical weapon would provide to a person attacking with a weapon? Or the value that getting advantage (or disadvantage) on an attack can provide for an increased chance to hit and increased crit chance (assuming that advantage occurs more often than disadvantage)?
The math already shows that for levels 1-10 and 14-16, the Divine Strike weapon attack is already quite comparable to a Potent Spellcasting cantrip assuming no crits, no magical weapon, and an attack roll is just as likely to hit as an enemy is to fail their dex save.
If the question is Potent Spellcasting with cantrip versus Divine Strike with a weapon, I prefer Divine Strike (although I think it's close enough that it's reasonable to prefer Potent Spellcasting). Even playing a low level Trickery Cleric using Toll the Dead, I found Wisdom saves to be much less reliable than attack rolls, and I know that as you get to higher levels, Wisdom Saves really really tail off. Dexterity saves don't tail off as badly, but I'd still imagine that attack rolls are a more reliable source of damage than saving throws, especially when you factor in crits and the chance to get advantage on enemies that are blinded, prone, restrained, stunned, paralyzed, etc.
And then you add in the ability to get a magical weapon at some point as you're leveling on top of that, and I'd definitely prefer Divine Strike with weapon attacks. And you could add in Great Weapon Master or Sharpshooter as a feat, as well.
I think Divine Strike is slightly better than Potent Spellcasting, but I think that both are good options, and I don't think that either one is an inferior option. I seem to have gotten into a lot of arguments recently for saying that I think two things are comparable and that neither one is clearly better than the other. But once again, I'm gonna go with that line - that both Divine Strike and Potent Spellcasting are good and that neither one is an inferior option.
Sure, it looks lopsided right now in your comparison, but you are explicitly not comparing apples to apples. You are giving the Potent Cantrip side maximum Wisdom while not allowing the Divine Strike side to take care of any of the boosters it can get even without raising its attribute. You aren't factoring in critical hits, nor the ability to get Booming Blade or GFB, nor any magic item and specifically pigeonholing the comparison to using a d8 weapon based on your own aesthetic sensibilities.
Taking just a couple of those boosters into consideration evens the playing field, if not surpasses Potent Cantrip by a significant margin. To be honest, if you are going to grant one side two asi, you should grant the other side the same opportunity; I am not saying that maxing strength or dex is common, but you could also take feats with that opportunity. Spell Sniper for Booming Blade, maybe Elven Accuracy for greater critical potential.
Also, perhaps its a personal thing, but I don't round up when calculating averages. The average for a d8 is 4.5, not 5; if you round up it will skew your numbers with multiple dice rolls. You do the same calculation for both sides, so its not effecting the comparison, but just thought I'd mention it.
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i get that clerics are meant to be like spell casters who can take a hit and are meant to be in the middle of combat and that is why you have simple weapon and medium armor proficiency, and why some subclasses further grant you martial weapon proficiency and heavy armor proficiency and on top of that empower your weapon strikes with divine energy in the form of divine strike, and i get that it is not meant to be as powerful as the proper martial classes, the problem i have is that using weapons seem to be an far inferior option for dealing damage compared to using the cantrips available to your class, especially when considering most only use a single one handed weapon and a shield and that you are going to try and increase your wisdom over your strength in most cases with your ability score increases. Granted cantrips require verbal and somatic components so they can be rather noisy and they can be counterspelled or affected by antimagic, but like it is just as easy for you to disarm somebody as it is for you to bind the hands and silence an spell caster, and it is not often you ever see an dead magic zone or somebody going around using 3rd level spell slots to stop an cantrip, it just seems like an significantly weaker option and i do not understand why
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Clerics don't have to be played as relying on spells. You don't always need high wisdom either. There is nothing stopping you using weapons and focusing on Str or Dex. Your heal spells are still extremely useful even if you had a wis mod of 0. They get plenty of self-buff spells which obviously don't need attack rolls or saving throws. Even Spiritual Weapon is still worth using - even without a wis mod, you may still hit with it and it doesn't use concentration or anything, so it's still useful.
Just because you're a Cleric doesn't mean you need to focus on Wis as a priority. There are many successful builds that can have it be secondary or even tertiary.
Nothing screams "don't piss off the cleric" more than the cleric who can cast Holy Weapon on their mace that already benefits from divine strike. Especially War Clerics with their +10 to attack when they need it.
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Until you pick up warcaster, you need something for opportunity attacks.
If you have a magic weapon like a flame tongue or something And now you can really pile on the damage.
You’re fighting something with a good DEX save so sacred flame keeps missing.
But tbh, I had a tempest cleric I played up to level 14 and I think I only used his weapon 3 or 4 times in the whole campaign. It was kind of a cool add on for those 3 or 4 times, though.
Cantrips also target saving throws, whereas weapon attacks are an attack roll. Your two main cantrip options either target a dexterity save or a wisdom save. At lower levels, adding your strength or dexterity modifier to the weapon's damage roll helps make weapon attacks as good as the cantrips. At higher levels, the enemy's saving throws are strong enough that weapon attacks are still just as good as the cantrips. Your chance of an enemy failing their wisdom save for Toll the Dead at higher levels is lower than your chance of landing an attack on the enemy when you do an attack roll. Also, at higher levels you can have magic weapons that make your weapon attacks better, whereas it's much harder to find magic items that make your cantrips better.
It would be nice if Clerics had a nice damage cantrip with an attack roll. But it was intentional that they weren't given this option. That's why my Tempest Cleric multiclassed as a Sorcerer to get the very thematic attack cantrips of Booming Blade, Shocking Grasp, and Ray of Frost. Dealing Thunder, Lightning, and Cold damage is extremely thematic for a Tempest Cleric, and it lets me overcome the really weak cantrip options that a Cleric is given.
The Arcana Cleric is quite good in that regard.
I have a level 1 tempest cleric in a campaign right now, and I'm debating doing this. Wisdom is currently 18. I'm wondering what to do with my level 4 ASI and/or to multiclass (at level 5)
Option 1) Straight cleric, ASI into wisdom boost, don't worry about melee as much
Option 2) Magic initiate, wizard for BB, GFB, and shield or find familiar
Option 3) ASI to Wisdom (hitting twenty), MC into Sorc (or wizard or warlock) for attack cantrips and class goodies.
I feel that option 3, multiclassing just to make melee a bit more damaging, feels like overkill. Those third level spells are kind of great. OTOH, using a feat for the ASI gimps wisdom (Attacks, saves, prepared spell.)
I just don't know yet.
Don't forget warcaster. If you're going to be in melee, its really a must. (really, shield and weapon also makes it a must to be able to cast somatic spells). And tempest clerics are meant to be in melee, heavy armor, and that reaction to do thunder damage to someone who hits you. Also, you'll love it when you start getting concentration spells like call lightning. And an 18 wisdom is really solid. You can take the ASI at 8 and still be doing really well.
Right now I'm leaning to Sorc. If the campaign lasts long enough, that gives options to twin BB for some extra shenanigans.
Yeah, f*cking warcaster. grr.
If you're content to get just one attack cantrip, the Spell Sniper feat is great. It doubles the range on Spiritual Weapon, and it will double the range on whatever attack cantrip you choose. If you choose Booming Blade you can use a reach weapon and get a 10ft range on your attacks. My Tempest Cleric is dexterity based and uses a shield in combination with a whip and has the spell sniper feat (which she used to get Thorn Whip). Thorn Whip uses Wisdom for the attack roll, and it can be used to pull enemies into your Spirit Guardians aura causing them to take the Spirit Guardians damage on your turn. Using Booming Blade with a whip is very thematic, and because of the spell sniper feat I can do it with a 10ft range.
Getting Shocking Grasp gives you an at will way to trigger the Tempest Cleric level 6 ability to knock enemies back 10ft when they deal lightning damage. And Ray of Frost has 120ft range for me because of the spell sniper feat. So all of my attack cantrips have different uses, which makes the game a lot more fun than just "i attack with my weapon" or "i attack with my one attack cantrip" each round during combat.
But of my four attack cantrips, two use Charisma (Shocking Grasp and Ray of Frost), one uses Wisdom (Thorn Whip), and one uses Dexterity (Booming Blade). So it's a very MAD strategy. I prefer to use Booming Blade because I can add my Dexterity modifier to the damage when I use this cantrip, whereas my other attack cantrips only use the sum of the dice rolls. That very high floor of damage on weapon attacks is a great thing about weapon attacks, especially in tier 1, but it's still useful in tier 2 as well. When I attack with Shocking Grasp, Ray of Frost, or Thorn Whip, there's a chance I could roll two 1s for my damage and deal just 2 points of damage. With Booming Blade, I'm guaranteed at least 5 damage if I roll two 1s for my damage, and an additional 2 points of damage minimum if the target moves. I really appreciate the higher damage floor, and that's why Booming Blade is my primary attack to cause damage, and the other cantrips are used situationally.
The situational use of using Thorn Whip to pull someone into the Spirit Guardians aura is a pretty awesome use. The Spirit Guardians aura is a Wisdom save, and enemies have a higher chance of succeeding a Wisdom Saving throw than I do of rolling too low on my attack roll. At least with Spirit Guardians, they still take half damage on a successful save. On cantrips, they would take no damage on a successful save (and they would take no damage on a missed attack, but missed attacks just don't happen as often as successful Wisdom saves).
The extra effect of triggering Spirit Guardians makes Thorn Whip an excellent choice for a Cleric that is taking an attack cantrip from another class. Even better, it uses your Wisdom for the attack roll, and not Intelligence or Charisma like some other cantrips. Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade will use your strength or dexterity for the attack roll, so they're also probably better options than Shocking Grasp, Ray of Frost, or other cantrips found on the Sorcerer, Warlock, and Wizard spell lists. Thorn Whip (when used to pull somebody into your Spirit Guardians aura), Booming Blade, and Green Flame Blade all have a very high damage floor because Thorn Whip would add half of 3D8 on top of your XD6 damage, and Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade allow you to add your Dexterity or Strength to the damage roll, as well as allowing you to add Divine Strike damage to the attack. Green Flame Blade also allows you to add your Charisma or Intelligence modifier as fire damage to an enemy adjacent to your primary target, so it's got that situational additional high floor of damage dealt.
I know I'm not alone in placing a high value on having a high floor for damage, as well as placing a high value on using an attack roll instead of forcing the enemy to do a saving throw. These two things are very important to me. One of my characters from a previous campaign was a Trickery Cleric that used Toll the Dead as his attack, and it was pretty frustrating to have only one attack option, and for that option to be forcing the enemy to do a Wisdom Saving throw, and for rolling low on the damage to happen a reasonable amount of the time, with no modifiers to add to the damage.
I think it's comparable to a cantrip within a few points of average damage. Lets assume 16(+3) to str so you can wear plate armor and a longsword, math below. Magic weapons will increase the damage you do and give you a better chance at hitting. Where as sacred flame requires a dex save and toll the dead required a wis save.
lvl 1: Weapon 1d8+3 (8) Sacred Flame 1d8 (5)
lvl 5: W 1d8+3 (8) SF 2d8 (9)
lvl 8: W 2d8+3 (12) SF 2d8 (9)
lvl 11: W 2d8+3 (12) SF 3d8 (14)
lvl 14: W 3d8+3 (17) SF 3d8 (14)
lvl 17: W 3d8+3 (17) SF 4d8 (18)
Due to a racial bonus (homebrew), I'm using Shillelagh, so one design goal is to keep things as SAD as possible. CHA won't get higher than 14 due to my initial rolls (Unless I bump it with ASIs, but that's unlikely.) I can see upgrading to a magical STR weapon though, or perhaps using something like Gauntlets of Ogre Power.
Your point about using Spell Sniper for things like Spiritual Weapon is well taken though. The custom race is basically "bear person." I'm really looking forward to running around whacking people with a quarterstaff as a bear while wearing plate armor :)
The tempting feature of Sorc: If the campaign last long enough, three levels of Sorc gives twin spell and quicken. Both of which work with Booming Blade. Under certain conditions, that's two BB + Divine Strike attacks per turn.
Taking Thorn Whip will keep you Single Attribute Dependent because it is keyed to your wisdom. If you envision your bear in plate armor yelling "GET OVER HERE" like Scorpion from Mortal Kombat, you can have fun with the Thorn Whip cantrip. If you plan on using Spirit Guardians, its a pretty useful cantrip. If you plan on using something else for concentration, Thorn Whip is a lot less useful for a Cleric.
Honestly I feel that weapons are in /most/ cases a trap option. a lot of folks are going to tell me I'm wrong, etc etc but that's my opinion.
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compare that then to an cleric subclass with potent cantrips, even if we assume that a light cleric, an blaster and healer would only go as far as 16 in their wisdom the combatant with the longsword will still be outmatched or only tied every single level except for the first few levels
lvl 1: Weapon 1d8+3 (8) Sacred Flame 1d8 (5)
lvl 5: W 1d8+3 (8) SF 2d8 (9)
lvl 8: W 2d8+3 (12) SF 2d8+3 (12)
lvl 11: W 2d8+3 (12) SF 3d8+3 (17)
lvl 14: W 3d8+3 (17) SF 3d8+3 (17)
lvl 17: W 3d8+3 (17) SF 4d8+3 (21)
lvl 1: Weapon 1d8+3 (8) Sacred Flame 1d8 (5)
lvl 5: W 1d8+3 (8) SF 2d8 (9)
lvl 8: W 2d8+3 (12) SF 2d8+5 (14)
lvl 11: W 2d8+3 (12) SF 3d8+5 (19)
lvl 14: W 3d8+3 (17) SF 3d8+5 (19)
lvl 17: W 3d8+3 (17) SF 4d8+5 (23)
like yes you can if you want go for more dangerous weapon options like the greataxe for a d12 in damage or greatsword for an 2d6, but the vast majority of people will not do that becuase the sword & board aestetic is perfect for an cleric
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Yes comparing potent cantrip to divine strike, cantrips are better.
If you only have access due to subclass, regular cantrips and divine strike are comparable. Weapon attacks also are boosted with magic weapons. Look at a dragon slayer weapon which adds 3d6 vs dragons, or something with 1d6 extra elemental damage and those numbers get much closer. Also feats like great weapon master or sharpshooter can add 10 damage on top of all that stuff, which I would claim does on average half as much as you are doing normally.
The other thing is all of the damage cantrips that clerics have access to are saving throw for nothing spells. Which means you are not rolling, which means you can not crit on those cantrips. There are ways around that such as feats or multiclassing to get attacking cantrips, but they are not available for potent cantrip as they are still not cleric cantrips.
In other words, a Cleric with Potent Spellcasting should rely on an cantrip for at will damage, and a Cleric with Divine Strike should rely on a weapon for at will damage.
Is that something that we can agree on?
cannot say i disagree with that, even when making this, i was just curious as to why they would give an inferior option to certain subclasses
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
So your assertion is that the classes with Potent Spellcasting are superior to the classes with Divine Strike?
How do we try to calculate the role that Dex Save vs Attack roll has when comparing a cantrip to a weapon attack? And the value that a magical weapon would provide to a person attacking with a weapon? Or the value that getting advantage (or disadvantage) on an attack can provide for an increased chance to hit and increased crit chance (assuming that advantage occurs more often than disadvantage)?
The math already shows that for levels 1-10 and 14-16, the Divine Strike weapon attack is already quite comparable to a Potent Spellcasting cantrip assuming no crits, no magical weapon, and an attack roll is just as likely to hit as an enemy is to fail their dex save.
If the question is Potent Spellcasting with cantrip versus Divine Strike with a weapon, I prefer Divine Strike (although I think it's close enough that it's reasonable to prefer Potent Spellcasting). Even playing a low level Trickery Cleric using Toll the Dead, I found Wisdom saves to be much less reliable than attack rolls, and I know that as you get to higher levels, Wisdom Saves really really tail off. Dexterity saves don't tail off as badly, but I'd still imagine that attack rolls are a more reliable source of damage than saving throws, especially when you factor in crits and the chance to get advantage on enemies that are blinded, prone, restrained, stunned, paralyzed, etc.
And then you add in the ability to get a magical weapon at some point as you're leveling on top of that, and I'd definitely prefer Divine Strike with weapon attacks. And you could add in Great Weapon Master or Sharpshooter as a feat, as well.
I think Divine Strike is slightly better than Potent Spellcasting, but I think that both are good options, and I don't think that either one is an inferior option. I seem to have gotten into a lot of arguments recently for saying that I think two things are comparable and that neither one is clearly better than the other. But once again, I'm gonna go with that line - that both Divine Strike and Potent Spellcasting are good and that neither one is an inferior option.
The best thing about Divine Strike is that it actually gives Clerics a meaningful boost at 14th level.
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Sure, it looks lopsided right now in your comparison, but you are explicitly not comparing apples to apples. You are giving the Potent Cantrip side maximum Wisdom while not allowing the Divine Strike side to take care of any of the boosters it can get even without raising its attribute. You aren't factoring in critical hits, nor the ability to get Booming Blade or GFB, nor any magic item and specifically pigeonholing the comparison to using a d8 weapon based on your own aesthetic sensibilities.
Taking just a couple of those boosters into consideration evens the playing field, if not surpasses Potent Cantrip by a significant margin. To be honest, if you are going to grant one side two asi, you should grant the other side the same opportunity; I am not saying that maxing strength or dex is common, but you could also take feats with that opportunity. Spell Sniper for Booming Blade, maybe Elven Accuracy for greater critical potential.
Also, perhaps its a personal thing, but I don't round up when calculating averages. The average for a d8 is 4.5, not 5; if you round up it will skew your numbers with multiple dice rolls. You do the same calculation for both sides, so its not effecting the comparison, but just thought I'd mention it.