First round, they add 40 hp, sure. And yes, that's a lot. But the amount they might add in the second round has several very big assumptions built into it, and is almost guaranteed to be less than that 40. One assumption is that the entire party remains within 30 feet of the cleric. Possible, maybe even likely, but by no means guaranteed. It's pretty easy to imagine the wizard and fighter more than 30 feet away from each other, and don't forget the monk ran all the way to the back of the enemy lines so she could punch the caster hiding there, and is well more than 30 feet away. So maybe the cleric stands in the middle to split the difference, and can manage to stay within 30 feet of everybody, but if they do, then you've got lots of people standing alone, making it easy for them to get surrounded. So while it can happen that everyone stays in range, and it often will happen, its not guaranteed to happen.
It's 12x12 squares. That is a huge area of effect for this abilitiy. And i assume a party will nearly always get the benefits without risking that everyone will get caught in a single aoe. But very important: It doesn't even need to hit everybody, becaus the 2 or 3 Frontlinecaharacters are all that matters. And as a cleric in Heavy armor and a constant 3-9 tmpHP-Shield (in tier 1 play) the twilight Domain is a very confident frontline tank. And that is exactly where this feature IS gamechanging.
Anyway, it is also possible, (and also unlikely) that no one in the party takes any damage in that round, meaning the power would do nothing. Most of the time its going to be in between, with 1-2 party members getting some thp. Now, 10-20 thp for no action is still a considerable amount, but not nearly as much as the white room comes up with. Also, along those lines, if one of the other characters drops, they get 0 thp (since you can't gain thp when you are at 0 hp), and the cleric would need to actually heal them to get them back up.
If no one of the PC take damage in the first round, they're steamrolling the encounter and therefore weren't challanged at all.
If a partymember drops to 0 HP and the Cleric needs to heal the member he just gets close enough for a healing word (or if the situation allows a touch spell) and then will bring back the character wich maybe has tHP, because he was lying in the radius in his turn, or will get tHP at the end of his turn for free. This will likely bolster the PC up enough to not get down so fast again.
The feature, albeit a lot of fun for the player, is busted. And we didn't considered the literaly immunity against the frightened AND charmed condition for the whole party. The Problem is, that all these effects are free. No action, no bonusaction, no concentration. it is a free regeneration spell and immunity to frightened and charmed buff for the hole party. All it costs is a channel divinity which can be used by the cleric 2-3 times a day in tier 1 and even more often in tier 2.
And there's another assumption that no one else is giving out any thp, no battlemaster fighters giving any out, no one with the chef feat, no one with any of the bard powers that gives out thp, etc. Because again, since they don't stack, its possible that a character has some from another source and gets no benefit from the power.
tHP doesn't stack, but the cleric can also cast aid, which stack with tHP
Other partymembers shouldn't take any feats/maneuvers or anything that grants tHP, because these feats are usualy worse, then the TS tHP given out. Which come for free. Again and again and again. But that will make the party also even more powerful. Because one character fills in the tank-support role so well, others can use theri resources for more damage or battlefield control.
I have the same Opinion like OptimusGrimus. The world will not burn because of this feature, but it is recognizable more powerful classfeature then nearly any other in the game. To be honest: I didn't have seen the feature in one of my games, but i consider myself an experienced dm with a good understanding of the gamemechanics. And i know what it feels like, when you fail to challenge your party as a dm. And i don't see, why a cleric with such a powerful ability is necessary in the game.
One last comment Twilight cleric now becomes the superior first level dip for just about any human or halfling because of the breathtaking dark vision plus all those other level 1 perks. Definitely OP as a dip.
It seems like several unbalanced subclasses have been getting through the playtest net lately. I don't think this is a one-off problem. The Echo Knight rules are so unclear that a persuasive player can easily make it unbalanced versus an inexperienced DM. Twilight Cleric's combination of almost all Grade-A abilities from Level 1 makes it clearly better than most Cleric healer subclasses. College of Spirits Bard, meanwhile, is weak sauce due to unpredictability and the badly written Spiritual Focus feature. It makes one wonder whether WotC pays attention to their own playtest focus groups anymore before releasing stuff.
It seems like several unbalanced subclasses have been getting through the playtest net lately. I don't think this is a one-off problem. The Echo Knight rules are so unclear that a persuasive player can easily make it unbalanced versus an inexperienced DM. Twilight Cleric's combination of almost all Grade-A abilities from Level 1 makes it clearly better than most Cleric healer subclasses. College of Spirits Bard, meanwhile, is weak sauce due to unpredictability and the badly written Spiritual Focus feature. It makes one wonder whether WotC pays attention to their own playtest focus groups anymore before releasing stuff.
Tasha's is full of things that can't possibly have been playtested, but Echo Knight's problem isn't a lack of playtesting - its problem is that Mercer's content was originally all written for a specific group that understood what he meant to say, and what clearly didn't happen is having a "fresh" group playtest the thing with no prior understanding of its rules. Echo Knight's rules are challenging to understand and run directly into 5E rules that simply aren't fleshed out enough to handle it, but at least it isn't word salad like Spirit Bards/Artillerist Artificers, it isn't missing necessary words in a sentence like Order clerics, and it doesn't straight-up lie to you like Mercy monks.
It is the responsibility of the DM, not the players to balance combat encounters. While there are many classes/subclasses, spell combos, and whatnot that really are game changing in their own right, power creep can be counterbalanced by throwing in some really nasty monsters and annoying minions. A creative, resourceful DM should be able to build combat encounters around their PCs. As many resources as there are out there, there are plenty of options to deal with these issues. And just my opinion, but if a class/subclass feels op, that’s on the DM. They just aren’t doing their job. Don’t go for a tpk at low levels, but you might have to not pull your punches. Ya might have to make it a point to beat them up in creative ways. If you’re a new DM, you’ll learn how to combat power creep as you gain experience. Or just watch any of the dozens of amazing D&D YouTubers that are out there. I particularly appreciate the Dungeon Dudes, and how they really get into this stuff. Definitely would recommend their content for new DMs.
Besides the Dungeon Dudes, there are other major DM channels that ban content from Tasha's completely because it's far too strong or outright overpowered. So don't just look at the dungeon dudes. They make great content, but are also just one opinion on the subject. Seriously, if a player introduced the Twilight domain as a homebrew, any sane DM would immediately say "No, that stuff is overpowered!". And what is your solution by the ultimate DM? Tighten encounter so much that they are really challenging with TS but without TS having a high threat of TPK? Attack the cleric every time on his weaknesses? Or focus him every time he uses it's ability? In Encounters with TS increase the damage by about the amount of tHP for compensation?
The statement "a good DM will fix it with balancing the encounters" is unfortunately just wrong. The crucial point: ONE DM will never be smarter than 4-6 players. A DM only has the advantage of preparation. In the game, he is at a clear tactical disadvantage against the players. So basically everything must sit in the preparation and on the fly adjustments should only be necessary if you have made a mistake as a DM in the preparation. A skill like TS only makes this preparation way harder if you want to plan through the entire adventuring day. Monsters from the official sources often already have high demands on the DM when adjusting. Too few HP, too little or way too much damage, bad action economy and the List goes on. And suddenly you also have to think about how to overcome hundreds (!!) of tHP a day without the balancing feeling weird at least.
A good DM will talk to his player, defines the problem and together will find a solution. Like making the absolutely overdriven ability, that grants tHP and fear/charm removal FOR FREE balanced by using your reaction. In this way, you will make this ability still VERY good, but you are within the balancing system of the game, which uses Action-economy.
It is the responsibility of the DM, not the players to balance combat encounters. While there are many classes/subclasses, spell combos, and whatnot that really are game changing in their own right, power creep can be counterbalanced by throwing in some really nasty monsters and annoying minions. A creative, resourceful DM should be able to build combat encounters around their PCs. As many resources as there are out there, there are plenty of options to deal with these issues. And just my opinion, but if a class/subclass feels op, that’s on the DM. They just aren’t doing their job. Don’t go for a tpk at low levels, but you might have to not pull your punches. Ya might have to make it a point to beat them up in creative ways. If you’re a new DM, you’ll learn how to combat power creep as you gain experience. Or just watch any of the dozens of amazing D&D YouTubers that are out there. I particularly appreciate the Dungeon Dudes, and how they really get into this stuff. Definitely would recommend their content for new DMs.
I do appreciate this take a lot as I fully agree its up to the DM to manage encounters and balance things for everyone's fun....but their own fun in is included in that.
If a DM has to constantly upscale encounters or massively change pre-gen encounters to accommodate one ability then it starts to weight on them unduly.
Granted an experienced DM might find no issue in dealing with the ability and just adjusts damage when needed....perhaps fudging some damage numbers or adding a multiple attack trait....and being able to pull back when the cleric doesn't use the ability.
But not everyone is an experienced DM and not everyone has a good idea of how to balance encounters on the fly. Its enough work as it is as a DM to come up with story, background, encounters, descriptors, etc... to make a fun game for everyone. On top of this now you have to deal with an ability that forces you to address it most every encounter that is far and away more powerful than most other CD options.
It won't break the game no....but it is a bit frustrating to have to deal with is my major issue. Its like racial flight to me...its something that sounds good but ultimately has a LOT of implications that people do not think about.
It is the responsibility of the DM, not the players to balance combat encounters. While there are many classes/subclasses, spell combos, and whatnot that really are game changing in their own right, power creep can be counterbalanced by throwing in some really nasty monsters and annoying minions. A creative, resourceful DM should be able to build combat encounters around their PCs. As many resources as there are out there, there are plenty of options to deal with these issues. And just my opinion, but if a class/subclass feels op, that’s on the DM. They just aren’t doing their job. Don’t go for a tpk at low levels, but you might have to not pull your punches. Ya might have to make it a point to beat them up in creative ways. If you’re a new DM, you’ll learn how to combat power creep as you gain experience. Or just watch any of the dozens of amazing D&D YouTubers that are out there. I particularly appreciate the Dungeon Dudes, and how they really get into this stuff. Definitely would recommend their content for new DMs.
Let me try to understand this. You are saying that when WOTC releases a new subclass, that MANY warned was wildly OP, it is the DM's responsibility to "fix" this imbalance???? Yeah, as a DM, I have fixed it. I have banned that subclass. Just like I banned all the power creep features in Tasha's.
I mean if you want to do that, it’s your prerogative, but it’s also the players prerogative to leave your table and find a different one that allows options that may really get them excited. It is an utterly lame excuse to not allow something because it is imbalanced. Bra, shadows at cr 1/2 are stupid op for their level. A bodak is a really nasty monster that is going to be a unique, potentially deadly encounter if the players don’t know how to deal with it. There are hundreds if not thousands of methods, monsters, and DM tricks to counter any player you have. It is just lazy or ignorant to say that something is op and thus shouldn’t be allowed. A good DM will not have a problem countering powerful players. You may have to dig deep in to the bestiaries, and come up with some really frightening circumstances to keep the players on their toes. Just to illustrate my point, if the wizard and cleric are in the back, laying down aoe and control spells, and healing the party, round after round without taking damage, that’s not the players problem, that’s a DM problem. If that twilight cleric is flying around with impunity, why haven’t you incapacitated them? Sometimes, a player’s greatest strength is it’s greatest weakness. Sure flying is cool and powerful, until you get cocky and you are knocked out of the air and take falling damage. So what if they keep getting temporary hit points, if their hit point maximum is reduced and they can’t heal, it won’t to them a lot of good. There is ALWAYS a counter to every ability.
Again, you are absolute monarch of your table, but if you don’t let your players do something that they get really excited about and gets them involved, they are not having the best experience they could be. I say if it gets them excited to play the game let them do it.
I hope this causes you to reconsider your position. D&D is about having fun, and interesting narratives, along with some horror, suspense…and gritty, brutal combat. Sure, the DM is in it for the fun as well. But especially if you are running a homebrew campaign, without players, no one will get to experience your hard work and creativity. Let them jump in and play a character that immerses them in your creation. If they are relegated to a race/class/subclass that they really would rather not play, they are just missing out. And so are you. I have found the best moments for DMs and players alike is when they are having blast and can share in and out of character the fantasy, wonder, and wild humor that is D&D.
It is the responsibility of the DM, not the players to balance combat encounters. While there are many classes/subclasses, spell combos, and whatnot that really are game changing in their own right, power creep can be counterbalanced by throwing in some really nasty monsters and annoying minions. A creative, resourceful DM should be able to build combat encounters around their PCs. As many resources as there are out there, there are plenty of options to deal with these issues. And just my opinion, but if a class/subclass feels op, that’s on the DM. They just aren’t doing their job. Don’t go for a tpk at low levels, but you might have to not pull your punches. Ya might have to make it a point to beat them up in creative ways. If you’re a new DM, you’ll learn how to combat power creep as you gain experience. Or just watch any of the dozens of amazing D&D YouTubers that are out there. I particularly appreciate the Dungeon Dudes, and how they really get into this stuff. Definitely would recommend their content for new DMs.
I do appreciate this take a lot as I fully agree its up to the DM to manage encounters and balance things for everyone's fun....but their own fun in is included in that.
If a DM has to constantly upscale encounters or massively change pre-gen encounters to accommodate one ability then it starts to weight on them unduly.
Granted an experienced DM might find no issue in dealing with the ability and just adjusts damage when needed....perhaps fudging some damage numbers or adding a multiple attack trait....and being able to pull back when the cleric doesn't use the ability.
But not everyone is an experienced DM and not everyone has a good idea of how to balance encounters on the fly. Its enough work as it is as a DM to come up with story, background, encounters, descriptors, etc... to make a fun game for everyone. On top of this now you have to deal with an ability that forces you to address it most every encounter that is far and away more powerful than most other CD options.
It won't break the game no....but it is a bit frustrating to have to deal with is my major issue. Its like racial flight to me...its something that sounds good but ultimately has a LOT of implications that people do not think about.
:) Im just into people having fun. I personally do not think the twilight domain is even a little interesting. Honestly there is nothing I like about it. So maybe that makes me a little biased, because I don’t think it’s that powerful. Flight is cool until you become incapacitated 100 feet up. The tempest domain, however, has a special place in my heart. I just feel like people who outright ban stuff at their table maybe aren’t aware of all the awful horrible beasties and effects there are that can turn Sunday driving into an eighty car pileup.
It is the responsibility of the DM, not the players to balance combat encounters. While there are many classes/subclasses, spell combos, and whatnot that really are game changing in their own right, power creep can be counterbalanced by throwing in some really nasty monsters and annoying minions. A creative, resourceful DM should be able to build combat encounters around their PCs. As many resources as there are out there, there are plenty of options to deal with these issues. And just my opinion, but if a class/subclass feels op, that’s on the DM. They just aren’t doing their job. Don’t go for a tpk at low levels, but you might have to not pull your punches. Ya might have to make it a point to beat them up in creative ways. If you’re a new DM, you’ll learn how to combat power creep as you gain experience. Or just watch any of the dozens of amazing D&D YouTubers that are out there. I particularly appreciate the Dungeon Dudes, and how they really get into this stuff. Definitely would recommend their content for new DMs.
I do appreciate this take a lot as I fully agree its up to the DM to manage encounters and balance things for everyone's fun....but their own fun in is included in that.
If a DM has to constantly upscale encounters or massively change pre-gen encounters to accommodate one ability then it starts to weight on them unduly.
Granted an experienced DM might find no issue in dealing with the ability and just adjusts damage when needed....perhaps fudging some damage numbers or adding a multiple attack trait....and being able to pull back when the cleric doesn't use the ability.
But not everyone is an experienced DM and not everyone has a good idea of how to balance encounters on the fly. Its enough work as it is as a DM to come up with story, background, encounters, descriptors, etc... to make a fun game for everyone. On top of this now you have to deal with an ability that forces you to address it most every encounter that is far and away more powerful than most other CD options.
It won't break the game no....but it is a bit frustrating to have to deal with is my major issue. Its like racial flight to me...its something that sounds good but ultimately has a LOT of implications that people do not think about.
:) Im just into people having fun. I personally do not think the twilight domain is even a little interesting. Honestly there is nothing I like about it. So maybe that makes me a little biased, because I don’t think it’s that powerful. Flight is cool until you become incapacitated 100 feet up. The tempest domain, however, has a special place in my heart. I just feel like people who outright ban stuff at their table maybe aren’t aware of all the awful horrible beasties and effects there are that can turn Sunday driving into an eighty car pileup.
I love me some Tempest Domain! Nothing feels better to Call Lighting and maximize some damage!
In d&d is an unspoken rule that is very true: players always want more power. so why don‘t just give it to them? it‘s all about having fun, sure. But is it fun for everyone at the table? the point is not, that the twilight domain is too strong for the dm to handle but it‘s very complex! You may have to prepare two damage-tables per encounter. And it doesn‘t stop there. what about the fun of other players? The powercreep of TCoE is a real thing. The dungeon dudes DOWNGRADED every S-Tier Cleric subclass from previous Sourcebook, because Twilight domain sets the s-tier ceiling way higher then before. i get the argument, that players should feel excited about the theme of the twilight cleric, i just don‘t understand why it needs to be so damn poweful? What‘s the point? is a class only exciting for players when it‘s the most powerful? Need every new subclass in the future an ability, that takes place in every other players turn without the limitation of the action economy? how feel players of older subclasses in games with the new ones? not every problem can be solved by the dm. They can be adressed and potentially minimized but i really think that this argument is pretty weak. The DM is already the player at the table with the most work, the most responsibility and the most tasks at the same time. To give him the task to compensate for the bad balancing of the manufacturer is just a lame excuse of players to justify the existing powercreep. See the rule above. i‘m a player too, and i know that i feel always attracted by powerful abilities and it‘s hard to ignore it.
Tasha's is full of things that can't possibly have been playtested, but Echo Knight's problem isn't a lack of playtesting - its problem is that Mercer's content was originally all written for a specific group that understood what he meant to say, and what clearly didn't happen is having a "fresh" group playtest the thing with no prior understanding of its rules. Echo Knight's rules are challenging to understand and run directly into 5E rules that simply aren't fleshed out enough to handle it
That's interesting. Do you have a link to a video or something where Mercer or the other designer of the Wildemount rules say this? Or have Mearls or Crawford made any recorded remarks on this subject?
It is the responsibility of the DM, not the players to balance combat encounters. While there are many classes/subclasses, spell combos, and whatnot that really are game changing in their own right, power creep can be counterbalanced by throwing in some really nasty monsters and annoying minions. A creative, resourceful DM should be able to build combat encounters around their PCs. As many resources as there are out there, there are plenty of options to deal with these issues. And just my opinion, but if a class/subclass feels op, that’s on the DM. They just aren’t doing their job. Don’t go for a tpk at low levels, but you might have to not pull your punches. Ya might have to make it a point to beat them up in creative ways. If you’re a new DM, you’ll learn how to combat power creep as you gain experience. Or just watch any of the dozens of amazing D&D YouTubers that are out there. I particularly appreciate the Dungeon Dudes, and how they really get into this stuff. Definitely would recommend their content for new DMs.
Let me try to understand this. You are saying that when WOTC releases a new subclass, that MANY warned was wildly OP, it is the DM's responsibility to "fix" this imbalance???? Yeah, as a DM, I have fixed it. I have banned that subclass. Just like I banned all the power creep features in Tasha's.
I mean if you want to do that, it’s your prerogative, but it’s also the players prerogative to leave your table and find a different one that allows options that may really get them excited. It is an utterly lame excuse to not allow something because it is imbalanced. Bra, shadows at cr 1/2 are stupid op for their level. A bodak is a really nasty monster that is going to be a unique, potentially deadly encounter if the players don’t know how to deal with it. There are hundreds if not thousands of methods, monsters, and DM tricks to counter any player you have. It is just lazy or ignorant to say that something is op and thus shouldn’t be allowed. A good DM will not have a problem countering powerful players. You may have to dig deep in to the bestiaries, and come up with some really frightening circumstances to keep the players on their toes. Just to illustrate my point, if the wizard and cleric are in the back, laying down aoe and control spells, and healing the party, round after round without taking damage, that’s not the players problem, that’s a DM problem. If that twilight cleric is flying around with impunity, why haven’t you incapacitated them? Sometimes, a player’s greatest strength is it’s greatest weakness. Sure flying is cool and powerful, until you get cocky and you are knocked out of the air and take falling damage. So what if they keep getting temporary hit points, if their hit point maximum is reduced and they can’t heal, it won’t to them a lot of good. There is ALWAYS a counter to every ability.
There are counters to every ability, but that doesn't mean it's the DM's job to re-configure every encounter because a few subclasses are clearly too powerful even at low levels. Yes, a DM can use Beholders out the wazoo or Anti-magic Fields, etc. etc. to counter Twilight Cleric's auto-heals, but that kind of thing either gets tired after a few times or tailors everything to deal with one player's PC.
Bringing Shadows and whatnot into the discussion is a non-starter. Shadows are not PCs. They are controlled entirely by the DM and can be nerfed or strengthened by the DM as fits the particular campaign. PCs stick around and are controlled by the players, who desire agency and control of their character. However, when that agency involves creating excessive amounts of work for the DM or makes encounters too hard or boring for other players due to badly written rules for subclasses, that is NOT good game design.
It is the responsibility of the DM, not the players to balance combat encounters. While there are many classes/subclasses, spell combos, and whatnot that really are game changing in their own right, power creep can be counterbalanced by throwing in some really nasty monsters and annoying minions. A creative, resourceful DM should be able to build combat encounters around their PCs. As many resources as there are out there, there are plenty of options to deal with these issues. And just my opinion, but if a class/subclass feels op, that’s on the DM. They just aren’t doing their job. Don’t go for a tpk at low levels, but you might have to not pull your punches. Ya might have to make it a point to beat them up in creative ways. If you’re a new DM, you’ll learn how to combat power creep as you gain experience. Or just watch any of the dozens of amazing D&D YouTubers that are out there. I particularly appreciate the Dungeon Dudes, and how they really get into this stuff. Definitely would recommend their content for new DMs.
Let me try to understand this. You are saying that when WOTC releases a new subclass, that MANY warned was wildly OP, it is the DM's responsibility to "fix" this imbalance???? Yeah, as a DM, I have fixed it. I have banned that subclass. Just like I banned all the power creep features in Tasha's.
I mean if you want to do that, it’s your prerogative, but it’s also the players prerogative to leave your table and find a different one that allows options that may really get them excited. It is an utterly lame excuse to not allow something because it is imbalanced. Bra, shadows at cr 1/2 are stupid op for their level. A bodak is a really nasty monster that is going to be a unique, potentially deadly encounter if the players don’t know how to deal with it. There are hundreds if not thousands of methods, monsters, and DM tricks to counter any player you have. It is just lazy or ignorant to say that something is op and thus shouldn’t be allowed. A good DM will not have a problem countering powerful players. You may have to dig deep in to the bestiaries, and come up with some really frightening circumstances to keep the players on their toes. Just to illustrate my point, if the wizard and cleric are in the back, laying down aoe and control spells, and healing the party, round after round without taking damage, that’s not the players problem, that’s a DM problem. If that twilight cleric is flying around with impunity, why haven’t you incapacitated them? Sometimes, a player’s greatest strength is it’s greatest weakness. Sure flying is cool and powerful, until you get cocky and you are knocked out of the air and take falling damage. So what if they keep getting temporary hit points, if their hit point maximum is reduced and they can’t heal, it won’t to them a lot of good. There is ALWAYS a counter to every ability.
There are counters to every ability, but that doesn't mean it's the DM's job to re-configure every encounter because a few subclasses are clearly too powerful even at low levels. Yes, a DM can use Beholders out the wazoo or Anti-magic Fields, etc. etc. to counter Twilight Cleric's auto-heals, but that kind of thing either gets tired after a few times or tailors everything to deal with one player's PC.
Bringing Shadows and whatnot into the discussion is a non-starter. Shadows are not PCs. They are controlled entirely by the DM and can be nerfed or strengthened by the DM as fits the particular campaign. PCs stick around and are controlled by the players, who desire agency and control of their character. However, when that agency involves creating excessive amounts of work for the DM or makes encounters too hard or boring for other players due to badly written rules for subclasses, that is NOT good game design.
Half the time upping the difficulty of an encounter is not just retooling every encounter. It's just familiarizing yourself with the creatures you got and playing them smarter. There are several creatures that could be more dangerous than they are if they just did things like use some semblance of tactics rather than just throwing themselves like meat blobs against the party... Or actually attempting to take out that character that just keeps getting up from that piddly healing word rather than letting it yoyo through half of the fight, so that players know to be a little more defensive and care a bit more about healing up and the damage that they take rather than throwing themselves mindlessly into each battle because the monsters aren't going to go hard on them.
And the Charm and Fear thing is not Immunity. It takes ending their turn within the radius for it to be effective. They may not end up doing this depending on the ability used to apply the charm or the fear. But more than that even if it does get used to remove one of these effects. It's a round that they are not getting temp hp. and if somebody somehow gets both effects. it's a minimum of 2 rounds they are not getting temp hp.
The amount of "healing" isn't even new. Things like the Shepard Druid have been putting out similar amounts of healing for a while now. Even doing so without actions on anything it's summoned. On top of giving anything it's summoned more HP. And having what is effectively a small heal bomb it can set off if it's using the right totem spirit to heal everybody in it's radius without worrying about another persons turn. If it weren't for the fact that the free heal were only on Summoned Fey and Beasts which you either only have a few of if they are stronger or have low hp if you have a bunch of weaker ones. This would be doing more overall than the Twilight Cleric could ever hope to pump out. And since it's not temp HP. Things that do Temp HP can be piled on top of it. So you can actually double dip into multiple boosts to the point that if things like Inspiring Presence didn't take like 10 minutes to use there would be combinations much more broken than anything the Twilight Cleric could do. That already exist in the game well before Tasha's.
Half the time upping the difficulty of an encounter is not just retooling every encounter. It's just familiarizing yourself with the creatures you got and playing them smarter. There are several creatures that could be more dangerous than they are if they just did things like use some semblance of tactics rather than just throwing themselves like meat blobs against the party... Or actually attempting to take out that character that just keeps getting up from that piddly healing word rather than letting it yoyo through half of the fight, so that players know to be a little more defensive and care a bit more about healing up and the damage that they take rather than throwing themselves mindlessly into each battle because the monsters aren't going to go hard on them.
I'm a huge fan of smart Monsters that know, what they're doing. But that doesn't help here. Over the course of a campaign a dm has to design hundreds of encounters. And not all of the enemies are even smart enough or capable of preventing the effect of TS taking place. It's not that simple. Sure smart leaders can acknowledge, that they can't beat the unstoppable tank, that steamrolls their army. The Problelm is, the tank is in their house! Or the BBEG might have informations about the abilites of the group. But if every bugbear-leader has a perfect answer to TS, that maybe feel like metagaming to your player. So be careful with simple solutions to complex problems.
And the Charm and Fear thing is not Immunity. It takes ending their turn within the radius for it to be effective. They may not end up doing this depending on the ability used to apply the charm or the fear. But more than that even if it does get used to remove one of these effects. It's a round that they are not getting temp hp. and if somebody somehow gets both effects. it's a minimum of 2 rounds they are not getting temp hp.
It's not immunity, but it comes very close. It's enough, that it's a free dispell effect on these conditions. And i think, that it will take place most of the time, because even smart enemies won't know the exakt capabilities of the party. As an example: If i would prepare an encounter with a smart foe and the ability to dominate a partymemer, i would make the tactical decision that the npc targets a mental weak partymember like a fighter, a rogue or Barbarian with it's dominate person, to use against the party. That's a pretty common use of this ability. Sure it would be more effective to let your monster turn invisible and during a long rest cast dominate person on the barbarian, that takes watch and have him slit the throats of the entire party. Seems like hours of fun for everyone, but i think my point is clear. These effects (like dominate person) aren't a viable strategy anymore, when a twilight domain cleric is in the party.
The amount of "healing" isn't even new. Things like the Shepard Druid have been putting out similar amounts of healing for a while now. Even doing so without actions on anything it's summoned. On top of giving anything it's summoned more HP. And having what is effectively a small heal bomb it can set off if it's using the right totem spirit to heal everybody in it's radius without worrying about another persons turn. If it weren't for the fact that the free heal were only on Summoned Fey and Beasts which you either only have a few of if they are stronger or have low hp if you have a bunch of weaker ones. This would be doing more overall than the Twilight Cleric could ever hope to pump out. And since it's not temp HP. Things that do Temp HP can be piled on top of it. So you can actually double dip into multiple boosts to the point that if things like Inspiring Presence didn't take like 10 minutes to use there would be combinations much more broken than anything the Twilight Cleric could do. That already exist in the game well before Tasha's.
Here is a wrong assumption. The problem is not the amount of healing. Well it's also the amount, but mainly because it's free. Your shepherd druid can use his totem once per short Rest and WHENEVER he CASTS a healing Spell he will heal more IF allies are within the range of his totem. So he actively has to spend his turn healing others and maybe even use his BA to move the totem first. The twilight domain cleric has all his action economy at his free disposal and cast aid on steroids every turn for free. And he starts this nonsense at 2nd level. The spell aid, isn't even available to him at this time. It's not like clerics had bad turns before TCoE but the TD brings it to a hole new level.
Round 1
Action: Channel Divinity (TS)
Bonusaction: Spirit Weapon and attack / healing word (if needed)
Reaction: Maybe an attack of opportunity (Sentinel or polearm master are valid choices for a td cleric, since he is very well suited for the frontlines with heavy armor and martial weapon proficiency).
casting aid on self
casting aid aid every ally that follows his turn
Round 2
casting aid or dispel magic on fear and charmed conditions on every ally before his turn. If the tHP aren't gone you have a chance of getting more.
action: casting a spell/cantrip or just attack
Bonusaction: command spirit weapon
reaction: same
casting aid on self to bolster HP again
casting aid or dispel magic on fear and charmed condition on every ally after his turn. If the tHP aren't gone you have a chance of getting more.
rinse and repeat
The shepherd is not even close of this capability.
Round 1
Bonusaction: maybe use the unicorn totem(unlikely) so maybe use another totem, but then the healing is gone or just use it for a shillelagh
Action: it's round 1, so unlikely that you will heal so you will deal damage with an attack (shillelagh) or cast a spell to summon
Reaction: maybe an aoO, but way more unlikely, because you don't be in the frontlines like the td cleric.
round 2
BA: Now it's time for totem and heal
Action Cast a healing spell target the ally, that you want to heal. bonus healing on unharmed allies is wasted, because healing doesn't work like tHP.
Reaction: same
round 3
Action: If you want to benefit from your superior healing again you have to use another spellslot healing an ally.
BA: Could be healing word for bonus-healing or moving your totem for better effect
Reaction: same.
That is by far not the same. You use up your resources just to heal the party. While you're doing so, you don't deal any damage or something else of value. And the free healing for your summons come online at level 10. While the feature is very good, it really just bolster your summons and not your entire party, and it has the same preconditions as the unicorn totem. The td cleric bolsters hp of the entire party in advance and thereafter every turn granting everybody a fresh tHP shield every round. That's insane.
Half the time upping the difficulty of an encounter is not just retooling every encounter. It's just familiarizing yourself with the creatures you got and playing them smarter. There are several creatures that could be more dangerous than they are if they just did things like use some semblance of tactics rather than just throwing themselves like meat blobs against the party... Or actually attempting to take out that character that just keeps getting up from that piddly healing word rather than letting it yoyo through half of the fight, so that players know to be a little more defensive and care a bit more about healing up and the damage that they take rather than throwing themselves mindlessly into each battle because the monsters aren't going to go hard on them.
I'm a huge fan of smart Monsters that know, what they're doing. But that doesn't help here. Over the course of a campaign a dm has to design hundreds of encounters. And not all of the enemies are even smart enough or capable of preventing the effect of TS taking place. It's not that simple. Sure smart leaders can acknowledge, that they can't beat the unstoppable tank, that steamrolls their army. The Problelm is, the tank is in their house! Or the BBEG might have informations about the abilites of the group. But if every bugbear-leader has a perfect answer to TS, that maybe feel like metagaming to your player. So be careful with simple solutions to complex problems.
And the Charm and Fear thing is not Immunity. It takes ending their turn within the radius for it to be effective. They may not end up doing this depending on the ability used to apply the charm or the fear. But more than that even if it does get used to remove one of these effects. It's a round that they are not getting temp hp. and if somebody somehow gets both effects. it's a minimum of 2 rounds they are not getting temp hp.
It's not immunity, but it comes very close. It's enough, that it's a free dispell effect on these conditions. And i think, that it will take place most of the time, because even smart enemies won't know the exakt capabilities of the party. As an example: If i would prepare an encounter with a smart foe and the ability to dominate a partymemer, i would make the tactical decision that the npc targets a mental weak partymember like a fighter, a rogue or Barbarian with it's dominate person, to use against the party. That's a pretty common use of this ability. Sure it would be more effective to let your monster turn invisible and during a long rest cast dominate person on the barbarian, that takes watch and have him slit the throats of the entire party. Seems like hours of fun for everyone, but i think my point is clear. These effects (like dominate person) aren't a viable strategy anymore, when a twilight domain cleric is in the party.
The amount of "healing" isn't even new. Things like the Shepard Druid have been putting out similar amounts of healing for a while now. Even doing so without actions on anything it's summoned. On top of giving anything it's summoned more HP. And having what is effectively a small heal bomb it can set off if it's using the right totem spirit to heal everybody in it's radius without worrying about another persons turn. If it weren't for the fact that the free heal were only on Summoned Fey and Beasts which you either only have a few of if they are stronger or have low hp if you have a bunch of weaker ones. This would be doing more overall than the Twilight Cleric could ever hope to pump out. And since it's not temp HP. Things that do Temp HP can be piled on top of it. So you can actually double dip into multiple boosts to the point that if things like Inspiring Presence didn't take like 10 minutes to use there would be combinations much more broken than anything the Twilight Cleric could do. That already exist in the game well before Tasha's.
Here is a wrong assumption. The problem is not the amount of healing. Well it's also the amount, but mainly because it's free. Your shepherd druid can use his totem once per short Rest and WHENEVER he CASTS a healing Spell he will heal more IF allies are within the range of his totem. So he actively has to spend his turn healing others and maybe even use his BA to move the totem first. The twilight domain cleric has all his action economy at his free disposal and cast aid on steroids every turn for free. And he starts this nonsense at 2nd level. The spell aid, isn't even available to him at this time. It's not like clerics had bad turns before TCoE but the TD brings it to a hole new level.
Round 1
Action: Channel Divinity (TS)
Bonusaction: Spirit Weapon and attack / healing word (if needed)
Reaction: Maybe an attack of opportunity (Sentinel or polearm master are valid choices for a td cleric, since he is very well suited for the frontlines with heavy armor and martial weapon proficiency).
casting aid on self
casting aid aid every ally that follows his turn
Round 2
casting aid or dispel magic on fear and charmed conditions on every ally before his turn. If the tHP aren't gone you have a chance of getting more.
action: casting a spell/cantrip or just attack
Bonusaction: command spirit weapon
reaction: same
casting aid on self to bolster HP again
casting aid or dispel magic on fear and charmed condition on every ally after his turn. If the tHP aren't gone you have a chance of getting more.
rinse and repeat
The shepherd is not even close of this capability.
Round 1
Bonusaction: maybe use the unicorn totem(unlikely) so maybe use another totem, but then the healing is gone or just use it for a shillelagh
Action: it's round 1, so unlikely that you will heal so you will deal damage with an attack (shillelagh) or cast a spell to summon
Reaction: maybe an aoO, but way more unlikely, because you don't be in the frontlines like the td cleric.
round 2
BA: Now it's time for totem and heal
Action Cast a healing spell target the ally, that you want to heal. bonus healing on unharmed allies is wasted, because healing doesn't work like tHP.
Reaction: same
round 3
Action: If you want to benefit from your superior healing again you have to use another spellslot healing an ally.
BA: Could be healing word for bonus-healing or moving your totem for better effect
Reaction: same.
That is by far not the same. You use up your resources just to heal the party. While you're doing so, you don't deal any damage or something else of value. And the free healing for your summons come online at level 10. While the feature is very good, it really just bolster your summons and not your entire party, and it has the same preconditions as the unicorn totem. The td cleric bolsters hp of the entire party in advance and thereafter every turn granting everybody a fresh tHP shield every round. That's insane.
Full agree... Shepard's numbers are no where close... especially later game.
Half the time upping the difficulty of an encounter is not just retooling every encounter. It's just familiarizing yourself with the creatures you got and playing them smarter. There are several creatures that could be more dangerous than they are if they just did things like use some semblance of tactics rather than just throwing themselves like meat blobs against the party... Or actually attempting to take out that character that just keeps getting up from that piddly healing word rather than letting it yoyo through half of the fight, so that players know to be a little more defensive and care a bit more about healing up and the damage that they take rather than throwing themselves mindlessly into each battle because the monsters aren't going to go hard on them.
I'm a huge fan of smart Monsters that know, what they're doing. But that doesn't help here. Over the course of a campaign a dm has to design hundreds of encounters. And not all of the enemies are even smart enough or capable of preventing the effect of TS taking place. It's not that simple. Sure smart leaders can acknowledge, that they can't beat the unstoppable tank, that steamrolls their army. The Problelm is, the tank is in their house! Or the BBEG might have informations about the abilites of the group. But if every bugbear-leader has a perfect answer to TS, that maybe feel like metagaming to your player. So be careful with simple solutions to complex problems.
And the Charm and Fear thing is not Immunity. It takes ending their turn within the radius for it to be effective. They may not end up doing this depending on the ability used to apply the charm or the fear. But more than that even if it does get used to remove one of these effects. It's a round that they are not getting temp hp. and if somebody somehow gets both effects. it's a minimum of 2 rounds they are not getting temp hp.
It's not immunity, but it comes very close. It's enough, that it's a free dispell effect on these conditions. And i think, that it will take place most of the time, because even smart enemies won't know the exakt capabilities of the party. As an example: If i would prepare an encounter with a smart foe and the ability to dominate a partymemer, i would make the tactical decision that the npc targets a mental weak partymember like a fighter, a rogue or Barbarian with it's dominate person, to use against the party. That's a pretty common use of this ability. Sure it would be more effective to let your monster turn invisible and during a long rest cast dominate person on the barbarian, that takes watch and have him slit the throats of the entire party. Seems like hours of fun for everyone, but i think my point is clear. These effects (like dominate person) aren't a viable strategy anymore, when a twilight domain cleric is in the party.
The amount of "healing" isn't even new. Things like the Shepard Druid have been putting out similar amounts of healing for a while now. Even doing so without actions on anything it's summoned. On top of giving anything it's summoned more HP. And having what is effectively a small heal bomb it can set off if it's using the right totem spirit to heal everybody in it's radius without worrying about another persons turn. If it weren't for the fact that the free heal were only on Summoned Fey and Beasts which you either only have a few of if they are stronger or have low hp if you have a bunch of weaker ones. This would be doing more overall than the Twilight Cleric could ever hope to pump out. And since it's not temp HP. Things that do Temp HP can be piled on top of it. So you can actually double dip into multiple boosts to the point that if things like Inspiring Presence didn't take like 10 minutes to use there would be combinations much more broken than anything the Twilight Cleric could do. That already exist in the game well before Tasha's.
Here is a wrong assumption. The problem is not the amount of healing. Well it's also the amount, but mainly because it's free. Your shepherd druid can use his totem once per short Rest and WHENEVER he CASTS a healing Spell he will heal more IF allies are within the range of his totem. So he actively has to spend his turn healing others and maybe even use his BA to move the totem first. The twilight domain cleric has all his action economy at his free disposal and cast aid on steroids every turn for free. And he starts this nonsense at 2nd level. The spell aid, isn't even available to him at this time. It's not like clerics had bad turns before TCoE but the TD brings it to a hole new level.
Round 1
Action: Channel Divinity (TS)
Bonusaction: Spirit Weapon and attack / healing word (if needed)
Reaction: Maybe an attack of opportunity (Sentinel or polearm master are valid choices for a td cleric, since he is very well suited for the frontlines with heavy armor and martial weapon proficiency).
casting aid on self
casting aid aid every ally that follows his turn
Round 2
casting aid or dispel magic on fear and charmed conditions on every ally before his turn. If the tHP aren't gone you have a chance of getting more.
action: casting a spell/cantrip or just attack
Bonusaction: command spirit weapon
reaction: same
casting aid on self to bolster HP again
casting aid or dispel magic on fear and charmed condition on every ally after his turn. If the tHP aren't gone you have a chance of getting more.
rinse and repeat
The shepherd is not even close of this capability.
Round 1
Bonusaction: maybe use the unicorn totem(unlikely) so maybe use another totem, but then the healing is gone or just use it for a shillelagh
Action: it's round 1, so unlikely that you will heal so you will deal damage with an attack (shillelagh) or cast a spell to summon
Reaction: maybe an aoO, but way more unlikely, because you don't be in the frontlines like the td cleric.
round 2
BA: Now it's time for totem and heal
Action Cast a healing spell target the ally, that you want to heal. bonus healing on unharmed allies is wasted, because healing doesn't work like tHP.
Reaction: same
round 3
Action: If you want to benefit from your superior healing again you have to use another spellslot healing an ally.
BA: Could be healing word for bonus-healing or moving your totem for better effect
Reaction: same.
That is by far not the same. You use up your resources just to heal the party. While you're doing so, you don't deal any damage or something else of value. And the free healing for your summons come online at level 10. While the feature is very good, it really just bolster your summons and not your entire party, and it has the same preconditions as the unicorn totem. The td cleric bolsters hp of the entire party in advance and thereafter every turn granting everybody a fresh tHP shield every round. That's insane.
Full agree... Shepard's numbers are no where close... especially later game.
"The Problem is the healing is free" completely ignoring that half the healing that I mentioned is totally free (the half that automatically almost equals what Twilight Cleric is capable of)... And ignoring the fact that Twilight Cleric also has to have them in the area of effect to work... And ignoring the fact that the numbers are almost exactly identical... Except they aren't. Because the Shepard can actually do higher.
And false equivalence calling it Aid... But you know. Making these False equivalences to make things look better is always the way with Twilight Cleric. It's not even close to aid. It might wish it was aid. And there are just so many ways to shut it off it's almost funny. Which the Totem doesn't shut off for. But yeah. it's twilight cleric that is just doing so much more because that's what your busy hating on and white rooming into this amazing thing. Kind of like people's arguments of just how powerful Healing Spirit Was even though it didn't actually work in practice the way they white roomed it.
Shepard because of the fact that it auto heals summons in the radius of the totem (much like in the radius of the cleric getting THP, who could have imagined) and having higher potential to healing turn after turn if the summons take more damage than a single turn of damage but survive to thta second round to get more healing up to the Improved Maximum health of the creature like True Aid, where the THP won't ever stack on top of THP so it's only ever pretend Aid.) and the fact that several summon spells upscale the number of creatures summoned out based upon the spell slot used to create them. That can add up to far more healing than Twilight Cleric can ever hope to pump out in ThP. With the only saving grace being that usually those are going to be a bunch of weak creatures so they are threatened by AoE spells. Which Incidentally... AoE spells will really mess up the group in that Twilight Clerics Aura as well. Because they don't just heal up all the damage that gets past the THP. They just get a nice little THP buffer placed upon their slowly failing health.
AoE, Concentrated targeting, and Stunning/incapacitating the cleric are all massive weaknesses of the Twilight Clerics ability of Twilight Sanctuary. only Two of those things are potentially a problem for the Shepard. One Monk, one Arrow with a paralyzation or sleep poison on it. One successful hold person. Just a few fireballs in quick succession, or just plain choosing to only target a couple individuals at a time until they fall and then moving onto the next all short circuits this supposedly awesome and Op power of the Twilight Cleric.
you all are over dramatizing this power because you've used Healing as a Last Resort and a minimum usage in Combat leading to yoyo'ing characters in and out of consciousness for so long. you don't know how to deal with it or recognize that all of this stuff was already in the game all along and you haven't been using it and/or you've been marginalizing it's effectiveness and everything it can do.
Yes Spirit Shepard is once per short or long rest. But that's because it's synergies make it potentially way more powerful. Twilight Sanctuary can be used twice once you reach level 6. But it's synergies are forced at best and it's easier to disable. But you guys are freaking out about it because it's resource usage is minimal. yet it's not special. it's not even necessarily the best at what it's doing and it can't bring back anybody from being knocked out. Which Aid, and Incidentally the Shepards ability can both do, and incidentally would do to summoned creatures if they actually got knocked out instead of disappearing at 0 hp.
Oh and one final note. Your turn order is completely wrong. Twilight Sanctuary does not activate on your turn for everybody. It activates only at the end of their Turn, Only if they are within the radius, and only if you choose to do so. Three conditions that must be met to use these effects. So there is no "removing these conditions or using pretend aid before their turn even starts" The power doesn't work that way. And ALL Temp HP is wasted if the person has not lost their Temp HP. There is no difference here between Twilight Sanctuary and the Shepards healing ability at all. Even if they have lost health their health is NEVER replaced by temp HP. They are still down that much health. They just get a buffer of Temp HP. And if they already have a buffer of Temp HP that matches or exceeds the amount you would give them. Twilight Sanctuary does nothing and the THP and thus the ability is entirely wasted upon them. Also. if Your in the front lines with your Twilight Cleric. There is a much higher likelyhood that you are not covering all of your allies with your ability. Diminishing it's effect even further because now not only is it not working on them when they haven't taken damage but it's not refreshing those THP when they have taken damage as well. Since a lot of ranged players like to be more than 30' from the front lines if they can help it so they have a buffer space to see enemies coming if something breaks away from the front lines to go after them. Forcing your Twilight Cleric to either wasting various actions and stuff disengaging and moving back to aid them, or never to be in the front lines, unless you can convince your range characters to risk being closer to the battle while usually being the squishiest members all for your twilight cleric buff. Which they are just going to notice the problem with it even faster than the frontliners are when it doesn't heal them at all but just makes them die slower.
You're ignoring action economy and the cost to the druid.
The fact that you have to burn an action or bonus action AND a spell slot makes the druid a one note character if they want to use unicorn.... You have to devote your turn to casting a healing spell and thus limiting what you can do every turn off you want to give the benefit out every turn
The twilight Cleric does not need to do this and can activity cast damaging spells while still giving out the benefit.
This makes them more versatile as well as they can cast buff/debuff spells or whatever other action they want.
The druid actually has to give something up to use the feature.... The twilight Cleric doesn't.
Half the time upping the difficulty of an encounter is not just retooling every encounter. It's just familiarizing yourself with the creatures you got and playing them smarter. There are several creatures that could be more dangerous than they are if they just did things like use some semblance of tactics rather than just throwing themselves like meat blobs against the party... Or actually attempting to take out that character that just keeps getting up from that piddly healing word rather than letting it yoyo through half of the fight, so that players know to be a little more defensive and care a bit more about healing up and the damage that they take rather than throwing themselves mindlessly into each battle because the monsters aren't going to go hard on them.
I'm a huge fan of smart Monsters that know, what they're doing. But that doesn't help here. Over the course of a campaign a dm has to design hundreds of encounters. And not all of the enemies are even smart enough or capable of preventing the effect of TS taking place. It's not that simple. Sure smart leaders can acknowledge, that they can't beat the unstoppable tank, that steamrolls their army. The Problelm is, the tank is in their house! Or the BBEG might have informations about the abilites of the group. But if every bugbear-leader has a perfect answer to TS, that maybe feel like metagaming to your player. So be careful with simple solutions to complex problems.
And the Charm and Fear thing is not Immunity. It takes ending their turn within the radius for it to be effective. They may not end up doing this depending on the ability used to apply the charm or the fear. But more than that even if it does get used to remove one of these effects. It's a round that they are not getting temp hp. and if somebody somehow gets both effects. it's a minimum of 2 rounds they are not getting temp hp.
It's not immunity, but it comes very close. It's enough, that it's a free dispell effect on these conditions. And i think, that it will take place most of the time, because even smart enemies won't know the exakt capabilities of the party. As an example: If i would prepare an encounter with a smart foe and the ability to dominate a partymemer, i would make the tactical decision that the npc targets a mental weak partymember like a fighter, a rogue or Barbarian with it's dominate person, to use against the party. That's a pretty common use of this ability. Sure it would be more effective to let your monster turn invisible and during a long rest cast dominate person on the barbarian, that takes watch and have him slit the throats of the entire party. Seems like hours of fun for everyone, but i think my point is clear. These effects (like dominate person) aren't a viable strategy anymore, when a twilight domain cleric is in the party.
The amount of "healing" isn't even new. Things like the Shepard Druid have been putting out similar amounts of healing for a while now. Even doing so without actions on anything it's summoned. On top of giving anything it's summoned more HP. And having what is effectively a small heal bomb it can set off if it's using the right totem spirit to heal everybody in it's radius without worrying about another persons turn. If it weren't for the fact that the free heal were only on Summoned Fey and Beasts which you either only have a few of if they are stronger or have low hp if you have a bunch of weaker ones. This would be doing more overall than the Twilight Cleric could ever hope to pump out. And since it's not temp HP. Things that do Temp HP can be piled on top of it. So you can actually double dip into multiple boosts to the point that if things like Inspiring Presence didn't take like 10 minutes to use there would be combinations much more broken than anything the Twilight Cleric could do. That already exist in the game well before Tasha's.
Here is a wrong assumption. The problem is not the amount of healing. Well it's also the amount, but mainly because it's free. Your shepherd druid can use his totem once per short Rest and WHENEVER he CASTS a healing Spell he will heal more IF allies are within the range of his totem. So he actively has to spend his turn healing others and maybe even use his BA to move the totem first. The twilight domain cleric has all his action economy at his free disposal and cast aid on steroids every turn for free. And he starts this nonsense at 2nd level. The spell aid, isn't even available to him at this time. It's not like clerics had bad turns before TCoE but the TD brings it to a hole new level.
Round 1
Action: Channel Divinity (TS)
Bonusaction: Spirit Weapon and attack / healing word (if needed)
Reaction: Maybe an attack of opportunity (Sentinel or polearm master are valid choices for a td cleric, since he is very well suited for the frontlines with heavy armor and martial weapon proficiency).
casting aid on self
casting aid aid every ally that follows his turn
Round 2
casting aid or dispel magic on fear and charmed conditions on every ally before his turn. If the tHP aren't gone you have a chance of getting more.
action: casting a spell/cantrip or just attack
Bonusaction: command spirit weapon
reaction: same
casting aid on self to bolster HP again
casting aid or dispel magic on fear and charmed condition on every ally after his turn. If the tHP aren't gone you have a chance of getting more.
rinse and repeat
The shepherd is not even close of this capability.
Round 1
Bonusaction: maybe use the unicorn totem(unlikely) so maybe use another totem, but then the healing is gone or just use it for a shillelagh
Action: it's round 1, so unlikely that you will heal so you will deal damage with an attack (shillelagh) or cast a spell to summon
Reaction: maybe an aoO, but way more unlikely, because you don't be in the frontlines like the td cleric.
round 2
BA: Now it's time for totem and heal
Action Cast a healing spell target the ally, that you want to heal. bonus healing on unharmed allies is wasted, because healing doesn't work like tHP.
Reaction: same
round 3
Action: If you want to benefit from your superior healing again you have to use another spellslot healing an ally.
BA: Could be healing word for bonus-healing or moving your totem for better effect
Reaction: same.
That is by far not the same. You use up your resources just to heal the party. While you're doing so, you don't deal any damage or something else of value. And the free healing for your summons come online at level 10. While the feature is very good, it really just bolster your summons and not your entire party, and it has the same preconditions as the unicorn totem. The td cleric bolsters hp of the entire party in advance and thereafter every turn granting everybody a fresh tHP shield every round. That's insane.
Full agree... Shepard's numbers are no where close... especially later game.
"The Problem is the healing is free" completely ignoring that half the healing that I mentioned is totally free (the half that automatically almost equals what Twilight Cleric is capable of)... And ignoring the fact that Twilight Cleric also has to have them in the area of effect to work... And ignoring the fact that the numbers are almost exactly identical... Except they aren't. Because the Shepard can actually do higher.
And false equivalence calling it Aid... But you know. Making these False equivalences to make things look better is always the way with Twilight Cleric. It's not even close to aid. It might wish it was aid. And there are just so many ways to shut it off it's almost funny. Which the Totem doesn't shut off for. But yeah. it's twilight cleric that is just doing so much more because that's what your busy hating on and white rooming into this amazing thing. Kind of like people's arguments of just how powerful Healing Spirit Was even though it didn't actually work in practice the way they white roomed it.
Shepard because of the fact that it auto heals summons in the radius of the totem (much like in the radius of the cleric getting THP, who could have imagined) and having higher potential to healing turn after turn if the summons take more damage than a single turn of damage but survive to thta second round to get more healing up to the Improved Maximum health of the creature like True Aid, where the THP won't ever stack on top of THP so it's only ever pretend Aid.) and the fact that several summon spells upscale the number of creatures summoned out based upon the spell slot used to create them. That can add up to far more healing than Twilight Cleric can ever hope to pump out in ThP. With the only saving grace being that usually those are going to be a bunch of weak creatures so they are threatened by AoE spells. Which Incidentally... AoE spells will really mess up the group in that Twilight Clerics Aura as well. Because they don't just heal up all the damage that gets past the THP. They just get a nice little THP buffer placed upon their slowly failing health.
AoE, Concentrated targeting, and Stunning/incapacitating the cleric are all massive weaknesses of the Twilight Clerics ability of Twilight Sanctuary. only Two of those things are potentially a problem for the Shepard. One Monk, one Arrow with a paralyzation or sleep poison on it. One successful hold person. Just a few fireballs in quick succession, or just plain choosing to only target a couple individuals at a time until they fall and then moving onto the next all short circuits this supposedly awesome and Op power of the Twilight Cleric.
you all are over dramatizing this power because you've used Healing as a Last Resort and a minimum usage in Combat leading to yoyo'ing characters in and out of consciousness for so long. you don't know how to deal with it or recognize that all of this stuff was already in the game all along and you haven't been using it and/or you've been marginalizing it's effectiveness and everything it can do.
Yes Spirit Shepard is once per short or long rest. But that's because it's synergies make it potentially way more powerful. Twilight Sanctuary can be used twice once you reach level 6. But it's synergies are forced at best and it's easier to disable. But you guys are freaking out about it because it's resource usage is minimal. yet it's not special. it's not even necessarily the best at what it's doing and it can't bring back anybody from being knocked out. Which Aid, and Incidentally the Shepards ability can both do, and incidentally would do to summoned creatures if they actually got knocked out instead of disappearing at 0 hp.
Oh and one final note. Your turn order is completely wrong. Twilight Sanctuary does not activate on your turn for everybody. It activates only at the end of their Turn, Only if they are within the radius, and only if you choose to do so. Three conditions that must be met to use these effects. So there is no "removing these conditions or using pretend aid before their turn even starts" The power doesn't work that way. And ALL Temp HP is wasted if the person has not lost their Temp HP. There is no difference here between Twilight Sanctuary and the Shepards healing ability at all. Even if they have lost health their health is NEVER replaced by temp HP. They are still down that much health. They just get a buffer of Temp HP. And if they already have a buffer of Temp HP that matches or exceeds the amount you would give them. Twilight Sanctuary does nothing and the THP and thus the ability is entirely wasted upon them. Also. if Your in the front lines with your Twilight Cleric. There is a much higher likelyhood that you are not covering all of your allies with your ability. Diminishing it's effect even further because now not only is it not working on them when they haven't taken damage but it's not refreshing those THP when they have taken damage as well. Since a lot of ranged players like to be more than 30' from the front lines if they can help it so they have a buffer space to see enemies coming if something breaks away from the front lines to go after them. Forcing your Twilight Cleric to either wasting various actions and stuff disengaging and moving back to aid them, or never to be in the front lines, unless you can convince your range characters to risk being closer to the battle while usually being the squishiest members all for your twilight cleric buff. Which they are just going to notice the problem with it even faster than the frontliners are when it doesn't heal them at all but just makes them die slower.
I agree. Every example detailing how op a Twilight Domain cleric is, deals with it in a vacuum. Not how anyone would actually play the character. Not every turn will you find yourself in the aura. There are plenty spells, effects, traps, et cetera that can arrest your movement. The assertion that every turn you will have more temporary hit points is patently false. There are literally hundreds of legit ways to nerf this just with a little creative dming. Any dm that is having trouble with this simply is not thinking outside the box. If you have to ban this subclass, you have to ban the Oath of Vengeance, and every other S tier subclass. They are all game changing. Again, as I said before, I would never play this subclass. It does not pique my interest even a little. So I have no vested interest here. I believe everyone is “clearly overreacting”. Every reason I have heard sounds like excuses to me. And as much as I respect the Dungeon Dudes, I disagree with their ranking, and their demoting the other cleric subclasses. I usually agree with them, but not on this one.
@Fateless You should focus more on the arguments instead of questioning the abilities of your interlocutors. Implying that we don't know how to play the game properly to deal with strong abilities weakens your arguments.
I know it's not aid, but it comes close to aid, here's why. Aid is good for three reasons: 1. it cumulates with tHP 2. it heals by 5 hp 3. it increases the maximum hp by 5
The effect of TS has the following advantages: 1. it cumulates with aid (Very important because the cleric brings aid in any case. So I can assume that with the td I have both available, no matter what the rest of the party brings). 2. at the end of the fight probably all party members get again the maximum amount of TP added for the next fight. This increases the hp-maximum almost like aid, only that it is usually more and you depend on the activation TS. But from level 6 I can almost assume that the party will carry about 12 tHP all day through each encounter. Before EVERY fight, which is technically the same as an increased hp-maximum (borderline cases like hp-reduction excluded). It's not the same as aid but it comes close. And originally I just drew the comparison to shorten my text and clarify the impact on the game.
I don't understand how the shepherd druid guardian spirit ability is the same as ts. Guardian spirit is only available at level 10, it heals less hp than ts grants tHP and it only affects your summoned fairies or beasts. So the shepherd must additionally concentrate on a summoning spell. In conjunction with his weaker AC, this makes him more susceptible to concentrated fire or incapacitation.The comparison of these abilities is probably even more inappropriate than my comparison to aid. ;-)
My turn order was obviously simplified. Your attempt to portray my arguments as witless because I simplified it is not something I can take seriously. It is seriously a requirement in your eyes that the cleric wants to give tHP to his ally? I can picture the game situation: "Haha, barbarian you end your turn within 30 feet of me and you think you get tHP?! Not today, fool!"
I think our understanding of the game differs so much that we can't agree on this point.
@Fynwe Disclaimer: I would not ban TD at my table. I would tell the player who chooses this subclass that it is very strong and possibly broken. In the latter case, there is a possibility that we will make adjustments in the current campaign.
The whitebox argument is a killer argument. And I'm not even arguing in a whitebox, but simply with the given circumstances of the usual environment of DnD battlegrounds. TS doesn't have to give every party member the full number of tHP every turn to be good. But DND is a close combat skirmish system, where are the party members (especially the frontliner) supposed to be all the time? Hundreds of feet away from each other? Sure there are exceptional scenarios, but that's not the norm of fighters regularly clashing with sword and shield.... You say it yourself: It's a skill that can/should be dealt with by good DMing. So you acknowledge that it is an ability that needs to be addressed. And here is the sticking point. You don't have to address any other Channel Divinity ability as strongly as TS. And the cleric was already an extremely strong class before, and Channel Divinity was just situational add-on. TS is a standalone, powerful and very often active bonus feature that you have to plan for in every Encounter.
It's 12x12 squares. That is a huge area of effect for this abilitiy. And i assume a party will nearly always get the benefits without risking that everyone will get caught in a single aoe. But very important: It doesn't even need to hit everybody, becaus the 2 or 3 Frontlinecaharacters are all that matters. And as a cleric in Heavy armor and a constant 3-9 tmpHP-Shield (in tier 1 play) the twilight Domain is a very confident frontline tank. And that is exactly where this feature IS gamechanging.
The feature, albeit a lot of fun for the player, is busted. And we didn't considered the literaly immunity against the frightened AND charmed condition for the whole party. The Problem is, that all these effects are free. No action, no bonusaction, no concentration. it is a free regeneration spell and immunity to frightened and charmed buff for the hole party. All it costs is a channel divinity which can be used by the cleric 2-3 times a day in tier 1 and even more often in tier 2.
I have the same Opinion like OptimusGrimus. The world will not burn because of this feature, but it is recognizable more powerful classfeature then nearly any other in the game. To be honest: I didn't have seen the feature in one of my games, but i consider myself an experienced dm with a good understanding of the gamemechanics. And i know what it feels like, when you fail to challenge your party as a dm. And i don't see, why a cleric with such a powerful ability is necessary in the game.
One last comment Twilight cleric now becomes the superior first level dip for just about any human or halfling because of the breathtaking dark vision plus all those other level 1 perks. Definitely OP as a dip.
It seems like several unbalanced subclasses have been getting through the playtest net lately. I don't think this is a one-off problem. The Echo Knight rules are so unclear that a persuasive player can easily make it unbalanced versus an inexperienced DM. Twilight Cleric's combination of almost all Grade-A abilities from Level 1 makes it clearly better than most
Clerichealer subclasses. College of Spirits Bard, meanwhile, is weak sauce due to unpredictability and the badly written Spiritual Focus feature. It makes one wonder whether WotC pays attention to their own playtest focus groups anymore before releasing stuff.Tasha's is full of things that can't possibly have been playtested, but Echo Knight's problem isn't a lack of playtesting - its problem is that Mercer's content was originally all written for a specific group that understood what he meant to say, and what clearly didn't happen is having a "fresh" group playtest the thing with no prior understanding of its rules. Echo Knight's rules are challenging to understand and run directly into 5E rules that simply aren't fleshed out enough to handle it, but at least it isn't word salad like Spirit Bards/Artillerist Artificers, it isn't missing necessary words in a sentence like Order clerics, and it doesn't straight-up lie to you like Mercy monks.
It is the responsibility of the DM, not the players to balance combat encounters. While there are many classes/subclasses, spell combos, and whatnot that really are game changing in their own right, power creep can be counterbalanced by throwing in some really nasty monsters and annoying minions. A creative, resourceful DM should be able to build combat encounters around their PCs. As many resources as there are out there, there are plenty of options to deal with these issues. And just my opinion, but if a class/subclass feels op, that’s on the DM. They just aren’t doing their job. Don’t go for a tpk at low levels, but you might have to not pull your punches. Ya might have to make it a point to beat them up in creative ways. If you’re a new DM, you’ll learn how to combat power creep as you gain experience. Or just watch any of the dozens of amazing D&D YouTubers that are out there. I particularly appreciate the Dungeon Dudes, and how they really get into this stuff. Definitely would recommend their content for new DMs.
Besides the Dungeon Dudes, there are other major DM channels that ban content from Tasha's completely because it's far too strong or outright overpowered. So don't just look at the dungeon dudes. They make great content, but are also just one opinion on the subject.
Seriously, if a player introduced the Twilight domain as a homebrew, any sane DM would immediately say "No, that stuff is overpowered!".
And what is your solution by the ultimate DM?
Tighten encounter so much that they are really challenging with TS but without TS having a high threat of TPK?
Attack the cleric every time on his weaknesses? Or focus him every time he uses it's ability?
In Encounters with TS increase the damage by about the amount of tHP for compensation?
The statement "a good DM will fix it with balancing the encounters" is unfortunately just wrong. The crucial point: ONE DM will never be smarter than 4-6 players. A DM only has the advantage of preparation. In the game, he is at a clear tactical disadvantage against the players. So basically everything must sit in the preparation and on the fly adjustments should only be necessary if you have made a mistake as a DM in the preparation. A skill like TS only makes this preparation way harder if you want to plan through the entire adventuring day.
Monsters from the official sources often already have high demands on the DM when adjusting. Too few HP, too little or way too much damage, bad action economy and the List goes on.
And suddenly you also have to think about how to overcome hundreds (!!) of tHP a day without the balancing feeling weird at least.
A good DM will talk to his player, defines the problem and together will find a solution. Like making the absolutely overdriven ability, that grants tHP and fear/charm removal FOR FREE balanced by using your reaction. In this way, you will make this ability still VERY good, but you are within the balancing system of the game, which uses Action-economy.
I do appreciate this take a lot as I fully agree its up to the DM to manage encounters and balance things for everyone's fun....but their own fun in is included in that.
If a DM has to constantly upscale encounters or massively change pre-gen encounters to accommodate one ability then it starts to weight on them unduly.
Granted an experienced DM might find no issue in dealing with the ability and just adjusts damage when needed....perhaps fudging some damage numbers or adding a multiple attack trait....and being able to pull back when the cleric doesn't use the ability.
But not everyone is an experienced DM and not everyone has a good idea of how to balance encounters on the fly. Its enough work as it is as a DM to come up with story, background, encounters, descriptors, etc... to make a fun game for everyone. On top of this now you have to deal with an ability that forces you to address it most every encounter that is far and away more powerful than most other CD options.
It won't break the game no....but it is a bit frustrating to have to deal with is my major issue. Its like racial flight to me...its something that sounds good but ultimately has a LOT of implications that people do not think about.
I mean if you want to do that, it’s your prerogative, but it’s also the players prerogative to leave your table and find a different one that allows options that may really get them excited. It is an utterly lame excuse to not allow something because it is imbalanced. Bra, shadows at cr 1/2 are stupid op for their level. A bodak is a really nasty monster that is going to be a unique, potentially deadly encounter if the players don’t know how to deal with it. There are hundreds if not thousands of methods, monsters, and DM tricks to counter any player you have. It is just lazy or ignorant to say that something is op and thus shouldn’t be allowed. A good DM will not have a problem countering powerful players. You may have to dig deep in to the bestiaries, and come up with some really frightening circumstances to keep the players on their toes. Just to illustrate my point, if the wizard and cleric are in the back, laying down aoe and control spells, and healing the party, round after round without taking damage, that’s not the players problem, that’s a DM problem. If that twilight cleric is flying around with impunity, why haven’t you incapacitated them? Sometimes, a player’s greatest strength is it’s greatest weakness. Sure flying is cool and powerful, until you get cocky and you are knocked out of the air and take falling damage. So what if they keep getting temporary hit points, if their hit point maximum is reduced and they can’t heal, it won’t to them a lot of good. There is ALWAYS a counter to every ability.
Again, you are absolute monarch of your table, but if you don’t let your players do something that they get really excited about and gets them involved, they are not having the best experience they could be. I say if it gets them excited to play the game let them do it.
I hope this causes you to reconsider your position. D&D is about having fun, and interesting narratives, along with some horror, suspense…and gritty, brutal combat. Sure, the DM is in it for the fun as well. But especially if you are running a homebrew campaign, without players, no one will get to experience your hard work and creativity. Let them jump in and play a character that immerses them in your creation. If they are relegated to a race/class/subclass that they really would rather not play, they are just missing out. And so are you. I have found the best moments for DMs and players alike is when they are having blast and can share in and out of character the fantasy, wonder, and wild humor that is D&D.
:) Im just into people having fun. I personally do not think the twilight domain is even a little interesting. Honestly there is nothing I like about it. So maybe that makes me a little biased, because I don’t think it’s that powerful. Flight is cool until you become incapacitated 100 feet up. The tempest domain, however, has a special place in my heart. I just feel like people who outright ban stuff at their table maybe aren’t aware of all the awful horrible beasties and effects there are that can turn Sunday driving into an eighty car pileup.
I love me some Tempest Domain! Nothing feels better to Call Lighting and maximize some damage!
In d&d is an unspoken rule that is very true: players always want more power.
so why don‘t just give it to them?
it‘s all about having fun, sure. But is it fun for everyone at the table?
the point is not, that the twilight domain is too strong for the dm to handle but it‘s very complex! You may have to prepare two damage-tables per encounter. And it doesn‘t stop there.
what about the fun of other players?
The powercreep of TCoE is a real thing. The dungeon dudes DOWNGRADED every S-Tier Cleric subclass from previous Sourcebook, because Twilight domain sets the s-tier ceiling way higher then before.
i get the argument, that players should feel excited about the theme of the twilight cleric, i just don‘t understand why it needs to be so damn poweful? What‘s the point? is a class only exciting for players when it‘s the most powerful? Need every new subclass in the future an ability, that takes place in every other players turn without the limitation of the action economy?
how feel players of older subclasses in games with the new ones?
not every problem can be solved by the dm. They can be adressed and potentially minimized but i really think that this argument is pretty weak. The DM is already the player at the table with the most work, the most responsibility and the most tasks at the same time. To give him the task to compensate for the bad balancing of the manufacturer is just a lame excuse of players to justify the existing powercreep. See the rule above.
i‘m a player too, and i know that i feel always attracted by powerful abilities and it‘s hard to ignore it.
That's interesting. Do you have a link to a video or something where Mercer or the other designer of the Wildemount rules say this? Or have Mearls or Crawford made any recorded remarks on this subject?
There are counters to every ability, but that doesn't mean it's the DM's job to re-configure every encounter because a few subclasses are clearly too powerful even at low levels. Yes, a DM can use Beholders out the wazoo or Anti-magic Fields, etc. etc. to counter Twilight Cleric's auto-heals, but that kind of thing either gets tired after a few times or tailors everything to deal with one player's PC.
Bringing Shadows and whatnot into the discussion is a non-starter. Shadows are not PCs. They are controlled entirely by the DM and can be nerfed or strengthened by the DM as fits the particular campaign. PCs stick around and are controlled by the players, who desire agency and control of their character. However, when that agency involves creating excessive amounts of work for the DM or makes encounters too hard or boring for other players due to badly written rules for subclasses, that is NOT good game design.
Half the time upping the difficulty of an encounter is not just retooling every encounter. It's just familiarizing yourself with the creatures you got and playing them smarter. There are several creatures that could be more dangerous than they are if they just did things like use some semblance of tactics rather than just throwing themselves like meat blobs against the party... Or actually attempting to take out that character that just keeps getting up from that piddly healing word rather than letting it yoyo through half of the fight, so that players know to be a little more defensive and care a bit more about healing up and the damage that they take rather than throwing themselves mindlessly into each battle because the monsters aren't going to go hard on them.
And the Charm and Fear thing is not Immunity. It takes ending their turn within the radius for it to be effective. They may not end up doing this depending on the ability used to apply the charm or the fear. But more than that even if it does get used to remove one of these effects. It's a round that they are not getting temp hp. and if somebody somehow gets both effects. it's a minimum of 2 rounds they are not getting temp hp.
The amount of "healing" isn't even new. Things like the Shepard Druid have been putting out similar amounts of healing for a while now. Even doing so without actions on anything it's summoned. On top of giving anything it's summoned more HP. And having what is effectively a small heal bomb it can set off if it's using the right totem spirit to heal everybody in it's radius without worrying about another persons turn. If it weren't for the fact that the free heal were only on Summoned Fey and Beasts which you either only have a few of if they are stronger or have low hp if you have a bunch of weaker ones. This would be doing more overall than the Twilight Cleric could ever hope to pump out. And since it's not temp HP. Things that do Temp HP can be piled on top of it. So you can actually double dip into multiple boosts to the point that if things like Inspiring Presence didn't take like 10 minutes to use there would be combinations much more broken than anything the Twilight Cleric could do. That already exist in the game well before Tasha's.
I'm a huge fan of smart Monsters that know, what they're doing. But that doesn't help here. Over the course of a campaign a dm has to design hundreds of encounters. And not all of the enemies are even smart enough or capable of preventing the effect of TS taking place. It's not that simple. Sure smart leaders can acknowledge, that they can't beat the unstoppable tank, that steamrolls their army. The Problelm is, the tank is in their house! Or the BBEG might have informations about the abilites of the group. But if every bugbear-leader has a perfect answer to TS, that maybe feel like metagaming to your player. So be careful with simple solutions to complex problems.
It's not immunity, but it comes very close. It's enough, that it's a free dispell effect on these conditions. And i think, that it will take place most of the time, because even smart enemies won't know the exakt capabilities of the party. As an example: If i would prepare an encounter with a smart foe and the ability to dominate a partymemer, i would make the tactical decision that the npc targets a mental weak partymember like a fighter, a rogue or Barbarian with it's dominate person, to use against the party. That's a pretty common use of this ability. Sure it would be more effective to let your monster turn invisible and during a long rest cast dominate person on the barbarian, that takes watch and have him slit the throats of the entire party. Seems like hours of fun for everyone, but i think my point is clear. These effects (like dominate person) aren't a viable strategy anymore, when a twilight domain cleric is in the party.
Here is a wrong assumption. The problem is not the amount of healing. Well it's also the amount, but mainly because it's free. Your shepherd druid can use his totem once per short Rest and WHENEVER he CASTS a healing Spell he will heal more IF allies are within the range of his totem. So he actively has to spend his turn healing others and maybe even use his BA to move the totem first.
The twilight domain cleric has all his action economy at his free disposal and cast aid on steroids every turn for free. And he starts this nonsense at 2nd level. The spell aid, isn't even available to him at this time. It's not like clerics had bad turns before TCoE but the TD brings it to a hole new level.
The shepherd is not even close of this capability.
That is by far not the same. You use up your resources just to heal the party. While you're doing so, you don't deal any damage or something else of value. And the free healing for your summons come online at level 10. While the feature is very good, it really just bolster your summons and not your entire party, and it has the same preconditions as the unicorn totem.
The td cleric bolsters hp of the entire party in advance and thereafter every turn granting everybody a fresh tHP shield every round. That's insane.
Full agree... Shepard's numbers are no where close... especially later game.
"The Problem is the healing is free" completely ignoring that half the healing that I mentioned is totally free (the half that automatically almost equals what Twilight Cleric is capable of)... And ignoring the fact that Twilight Cleric also has to have them in the area of effect to work... And ignoring the fact that the numbers are almost exactly identical... Except they aren't. Because the Shepard can actually do higher.
And false equivalence calling it Aid... But you know. Making these False equivalences to make things look better is always the way with Twilight Cleric. It's not even close to aid. It might wish it was aid. And there are just so many ways to shut it off it's almost funny. Which the Totem doesn't shut off for. But yeah. it's twilight cleric that is just doing so much more because that's what your busy hating on and white rooming into this amazing thing. Kind of like people's arguments of just how powerful Healing Spirit Was even though it didn't actually work in practice the way they white roomed it.
Shepard because of the fact that it auto heals summons in the radius of the totem (much like in the radius of the cleric getting THP, who could have imagined) and having higher potential to healing turn after turn if the summons take more damage than a single turn of damage but survive to thta second round to get more healing up to the Improved Maximum health of the creature like True Aid, where the THP won't ever stack on top of THP so it's only ever pretend Aid.) and the fact that several summon spells upscale the number of creatures summoned out based upon the spell slot used to create them. That can add up to far more healing than Twilight Cleric can ever hope to pump out in ThP. With the only saving grace being that usually those are going to be a bunch of weak creatures so they are threatened by AoE spells. Which Incidentally... AoE spells will really mess up the group in that Twilight Clerics Aura as well. Because they don't just heal up all the damage that gets past the THP. They just get a nice little THP buffer placed upon their slowly failing health.
AoE, Concentrated targeting, and Stunning/incapacitating the cleric are all massive weaknesses of the Twilight Clerics ability of Twilight Sanctuary. only Two of those things are potentially a problem for the Shepard. One Monk, one Arrow with a paralyzation or sleep poison on it. One successful hold person. Just a few fireballs in quick succession, or just plain choosing to only target a couple individuals at a time until they fall and then moving onto the next all short circuits this supposedly awesome and Op power of the Twilight Cleric.
you all are over dramatizing this power because you've used Healing as a Last Resort and a minimum usage in Combat leading to yoyo'ing characters in and out of consciousness for so long. you don't know how to deal with it or recognize that all of this stuff was already in the game all along and you haven't been using it and/or you've been marginalizing it's effectiveness and everything it can do.
Yes Spirit Shepard is once per short or long rest. But that's because it's synergies make it potentially way more powerful. Twilight Sanctuary can be used twice once you reach level 6. But it's synergies are forced at best and it's easier to disable. But you guys are freaking out about it because it's resource usage is minimal. yet it's not special. it's not even necessarily the best at what it's doing and it can't bring back anybody from being knocked out. Which Aid, and Incidentally the Shepards ability can both do, and incidentally would do to summoned creatures if they actually got knocked out instead of disappearing at 0 hp.
Oh and one final note. Your turn order is completely wrong. Twilight Sanctuary does not activate on your turn for everybody. It activates only at the end of their Turn, Only if they are within the radius, and only if you choose to do so. Three conditions that must be met to use these effects. So there is no "removing these conditions or using pretend aid before their turn even starts" The power doesn't work that way. And ALL Temp HP is wasted if the person has not lost their Temp HP. There is no difference here between Twilight Sanctuary and the Shepards healing ability at all. Even if they have lost health their health is NEVER replaced by temp HP. They are still down that much health. They just get a buffer of Temp HP. And if they already have a buffer of Temp HP that matches or exceeds the amount you would give them. Twilight Sanctuary does nothing and the THP and thus the ability is entirely wasted upon them. Also. if Your in the front lines with your Twilight Cleric. There is a much higher likelyhood that you are not covering all of your allies with your ability. Diminishing it's effect even further because now not only is it not working on them when they haven't taken damage but it's not refreshing those THP when they have taken damage as well. Since a lot of ranged players like to be more than 30' from the front lines if they can help it so they have a buffer space to see enemies coming if something breaks away from the front lines to go after them. Forcing your Twilight Cleric to either wasting various actions and stuff disengaging and moving back to aid them, or never to be in the front lines, unless you can convince your range characters to risk being closer to the battle while usually being the squishiest members all for your twilight cleric buff. Which they are just going to notice the problem with it even faster than the frontliners are when it doesn't heal them at all but just makes them die slower.
You're ignoring action economy and the cost to the druid.
The fact that you have to burn an action or bonus action AND a spell slot makes the druid a one note character if they want to use unicorn.... You have to devote your turn to casting a healing spell and thus limiting what you can do every turn off you want to give the benefit out every turn
The twilight Cleric does not need to do this and can activity cast damaging spells while still giving out the benefit.
This makes them more versatile as well as they can cast buff/debuff spells or whatever other action they want.
The druid actually has to give something up to use the feature.... The twilight Cleric doesn't.
I agree. Every example detailing how op a Twilight Domain cleric is, deals with it in a vacuum. Not how anyone would actually play the character. Not every turn will you find yourself in the aura. There are plenty spells, effects, traps, et cetera that can arrest your movement. The assertion that every turn you will have more temporary hit points is patently false. There are literally hundreds of legit ways to nerf this just with a little creative dming. Any dm that is having trouble with this simply is not thinking outside the box. If you have to ban this subclass, you have to ban the Oath of Vengeance, and every other S tier subclass. They are all game changing. Again, as I said before, I would never play this subclass. It does not pique my interest even a little. So I have no vested interest here. I believe everyone is “clearly overreacting”. Every reason I have heard sounds like excuses to me. And as much as I respect the Dungeon Dudes, I disagree with their ranking, and their demoting the other cleric subclasses. I usually agree with them, but not on this one.
@Fateless
You should focus more on the arguments instead of questioning the abilities of your interlocutors. Implying that we don't know how to play the game properly to deal with strong abilities weakens your arguments.
I know it's not aid, but it comes close to aid, here's why. Aid is good for three reasons:
1. it cumulates with tHP
2. it heals by 5 hp
3. it increases the maximum hp by 5
The effect of TS has the following advantages:
1. it cumulates with aid (Very important because the cleric brings aid in any case. So I can assume that with the td I have both available, no matter what the rest of the party brings).
2. at the end of the fight probably all party members get again the maximum amount of TP added for the next fight. This increases the hp-maximum almost like aid, only that it is usually more and you depend on the activation TS. But from level 6 I can almost assume that the party will carry about 12 tHP all day through each encounter. Before EVERY fight, which is technically the same as an increased hp-maximum (borderline cases like hp-reduction excluded).
It's not the same as aid but it comes close. And originally I just drew the comparison to shorten my text and clarify the impact on the game.
I don't understand how the shepherd druid guardian spirit ability is the same as ts. Guardian spirit is only available at level 10, it heals less hp than ts grants tHP and it only affects your summoned fairies or beasts. So the shepherd must additionally concentrate on a summoning spell. In conjunction with his weaker AC, this makes him more susceptible to concentrated fire or incapacitation.The comparison of these abilities is probably even more inappropriate than my comparison to aid. ;-)
My turn order was obviously simplified. Your attempt to portray my arguments as witless because I simplified it is not something I can take seriously. It is seriously a requirement in your eyes that the cleric wants to give tHP to his ally? I can picture the game situation: "Haha, barbarian you end your turn within 30 feet of me and you think you get tHP?! Not today, fool!"
I think our understanding of the game differs so much that we can't agree on this point.
@Fynwe
Disclaimer: I would not ban TD at my table. I would tell the player who chooses this subclass that it is very strong and possibly broken. In the latter case, there is a possibility that we will make adjustments in the current campaign.
The whitebox argument is a killer argument. And I'm not even arguing in a whitebox, but simply with the given circumstances of the usual environment of DnD battlegrounds. TS doesn't have to give every party member the full number of tHP every turn to be good. But DND is a close combat skirmish system, where are the party members (especially the frontliner) supposed to be all the time? Hundreds of feet away from each other? Sure there are exceptional scenarios, but that's not the norm of fighters regularly clashing with sword and shield....
You say it yourself: It's a skill that can/should be dealt with by good DMing. So you acknowledge that it is an ability that needs to be addressed. And here is the sticking point. You don't have to address any other Channel Divinity ability as strongly as TS. And the cleric was already an extremely strong class before, and Channel Divinity was just situational add-on. TS is a standalone, powerful and very often active bonus feature that you have to plan for in every Encounter.