At the end of a long rest, you can touch one nonmagical object that is a suit of armor or a simple or martial weapon. Until the end of your next long rest or until you die, the object becomes a magic item, granting a +1 bonus to AC if it’s armor or a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls if it’s a weapon.
Once you use this feature, you can’t use it again until you finish a long rest.
So, considering the bolded parts, it seems you can use the ability at the end of a long rest. Part of the long rest. Then, to use it again, you have to wait until you finish a long rest. If I'm reading this right, you can't use the ability immediately again, since your long rest is already finished. Thus, you're no longer at the end of the rest.
In addition, the effect only lasts until you finish that rest.
So, if I'm not mistaken, it looks like this ability works one whole "day" (under standard rules, assuming the character takes a full long rest every night etc.), but then you have to wait a whole "day", during which the ability is not on, until you can use it for the next "day" again.
In other words, a "day" on, a "day" off. This is how I'm reading it, but I didn't see anyone else playing this way and couldn't find anyone else who asked the same (although, tbf, I didn't search very thoroughly). What do you think? Am I completely off or, just maybe, right? Is there any official ruling on the matter?
No, you're reading it incorrectly. There are two elements at work in this feature: the ability to imbue a mundane item with magic and how often this can be done.
At the end of each long rest, the cleric gains the ability to bless a piece of weapon or armor with magic. And that magic lasts until the end of their next long rest. Functionally, they have a near-perpetual +1 bonus to some piece of equipment. I say near-perpetual because there it does require an action to do bless the object.
The intent is to allow for a flexible bonus. If your cleric forgoes a long rest, for whatever reason, the blessing does not expire.
The feature's description clearly states that the blessing must be applied at the end of the long rest. That means, right before the long rest ends. It also lasts until that point. On the other hand, you only gain the ability to use the ability again after you finish the long rest. Meaning, no longer in the rest. The rest ended already. Considering that fact, the blessing is now gone and you can't use it now. You must wait until the end of your next long rest. Thus, it creates a cycle of on-off-on-off...
If the intention was to simply have a perpetual bonus (or near-perpetual, but the action doesn't really matter in most cases), I doubt they'd put the long rest restriction on the duration. There's also the difference between their phrasing in "at the end of the long rest" and "until you finish a long rest".
This could be wrong or unintended, maybe. Then again, maybe not. Is my claim clearer now?
I agree with Jounichi and coder. The ability refreshes just as the duration runs out, so you can always have it on a single item.
Firecat, the long rest restriction is so that a 1st level cleric can't just start churning out permanent magic items. Otherwise the party can just wait a few days while the cleric gets to work and everyone has +1 weapons and armor before they even leave the house. As is, it allows a small, but not game breaking bonus for one character. And the long rest also allow some flexibility in which item gets the bonus, which might change depending on what the characters expect to face.
I agree with Jounichi and coder. The ability refreshes just as the duration runs out, so you can always have it on a single item.
Firecat, the long rest restriction is so that a 1st level cleric can't just start churning out permanent magic items. Otherwise the party can just wait a few days while the cleric gets to work and everyone has +1 weapons and armor before they even leave the house. As is, it allows a small, but not game breaking bonus for one character. And the long rest also allow some flexibility in which item gets the bonus, which might change depending on what the characters expect to face.
For a reason like that, they could phrase it similarly to the Artificer's Magical Tinkering ability.
If you try to exceed your maximum, the oldest property immediately ends, and then the new property applies.
In this case, the maximum is one and can be phrased that way. If they don't mean it that way, why the inconsistencies?
Why would they phrase it one way twice, but then another at the end of the feature's description, if it means the same? Could be inconsistency. Maybe. Looking at Jeremy's answer, which should confirm what everyone is thinking, he still doesn't address that.
"If something lasts until the end of your next long rest and is also restored at the end of your next long rest, it ends and you regain it at the same time."
Yes, in the way he writes it, it ends and is restored at the same time. But, to be able to restore it, you need to finish the rest, which should happen after. That's what I'm saying. You could end and restore at the same time, but you don't have a use of the ability to expand to restore it.
You're not making any sense. The feature was already used to bless a piece of equipment. In other words, it was expended. If the ability was never expended, then it doesn't need to recharge and is still available.
It is possible for the blessing to expire and the blessing "recharging" to happen at the same time. If you're quibbling over alleged inconsistencies in language, then consider their respective sources. They were written two years apart, and the features expressly work differently. One can only affect one object. The other affects multiple objects in sequence. They're apples and oranges.
You're not making any sense. The feature was already used to bless a piece of equipment. In other words, it was expended. If the ability was never expended, then it doesn't need to recharge and is still available.
It is possible for the blessing to expire and the blessing "recharging" to happen at the same time. If you're quibbling over alleged inconsistencies in language, then consider their respective sources. They were written two years apart, and the features expressly work differently. One can only affect one object. The other affects multiple objects in sequence. They're apples and oranges.
Yes, it was expanded. What I'm saying is that the time in which you were allowed to bestow the blessing again passes before you regain the ability again. I know, it's different, but maybe an example will help you understand: A wizard can use a short rest to regain a number of spell slots, up to half his wizard level. He can only use this once per long rest. If the wizard used this ability in a short rest, then took another one, he can't use it again. He takes a short rest, so it's appropriate, but he doesn't have a use of the ability to expand, so he can't use it. He must complete a long rest first. Similarly, the way I read the Blessing of the Forge, you only regain the ability to bless the object after the rest has ended, while you can only bestow the blessing at the end, meaning, part of that long rest. You can try to bless, it's the appropriate time, but you've already expanded the use of the ability the other day.
The inconsistencies are not only between the books but also in the feature itself. Again: "At the end of the long rest" and "until you finish a long rest". These are the two phrasings in the same text.
You're not making any sense. The feature was already used to bless a piece of equipment. In other words, it was expended. If the ability was never expended, then it doesn't need to recharge and is still available.
It is possible for the blessing to expire and the blessing "recharging" to happen at the same time. If you're quibbling over alleged inconsistencies in language, then consider their respective sources. They were written two years apart, and the features expressly work differently. One can only affect one object. The other affects multiple objects in sequence. They're apples and oranges.
Yes, it was expanded. What I'm saying is that the time in which you were allowed to bestow the blessing again passes before you regain the ability again. I know, it's different, but maybe an example will help you understand: A wizard can use a short rest to regain a number of spell slots, up to half his wizard level. He can only use this once per long rest. If the wizard used this ability in a short rest, then took another one, he can't use it again. He takes a short rest, so it's appropriate, but he doesn't have a use of the ability to expand, so he can't use it. He must complete a long rest first. Similarly, the way I read the Blessing of the Forge, you only regain the ability to bless the object after the rest has ended, while you can only bestow the blessing at the end, meaning, part of that long rest. You can try to bless, it's the appropriate time, but you've already expanded the use of the ability the other day.
The inconsistencies are not only between the books but also in the feature itself. Again: "At the end of the long rest" and "until you finish a long rest". These are the two phrasings in the same text.
There is no inconsistency. The blessing expires at the same time the cleric can bestow a new blessing.
The domain has been in publication for...almost 40 months. [REDACTED]
I found a weird description. Asked if anyone else wondered about it. The answers I got ignore my question, it looks like you don't even read my posts. I'm trying to clarify my question in case it's my fault that it's misunderstood, yet you still answer some question I didn't ask.
I'm not going to explain it again, read above or just don't reply.
I found a weird description. Asked if anyone else wondered about it. The answers I got ignore my question, it looks like you don't even read my posts. I'm trying to clarify my question in case it's my fault that it's misunderstood, yet you still answer some question I didn't ask.
I'm not going to explain it again, read above or just don't reply.
You have been told, repeatedly and by multiple people, that you misread the feature. So you aren't just asking a question. You're arguing in bad faith by doubling-down on a bad interpretation; rather than listen to the advice of others.
You have been told, repeatedly and by multiple people, that you misread the feature. So you aren't just asking a question. You're arguing in bad faith by doubling-down on a bad interpretation; rather than listen to the advice of others.
That's because I already knew the consensus is that way. I didn't want the answer that is unrelated to my question. I wanted to bring a new approach and see if others agree it could be read that way, or maybe they could show me exactly why it couldn't or at least an official ruling that will clarify this problem. InquisitiveCoder was the closest to answer my question, although he wasn't exactly on spot.
I found a weird description. Asked if anyone else wondered about it. The answers I got ignore my question, it looks like you don't even read my posts. I'm trying to clarify my question in case it's my fault that it's misunderstood, yet you still answer some question I didn't ask.
I'm not going to explain it again, read above or just don't reply.
We all understood your question. We all disagree with your conclusion and interpretation is what happened.
At the end of a long rest, you can touch one nonmagical object that is a suit of armor or a simple or martial weapon. Until the end of your next long rest or until you die, the object becomes a magic item, granting a +1 bonus to AC if it’s armor or a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls if it’s a weapon.
Once you use this feature, you can’t use it again until you finish a long rest.
So, considering the bolded parts, it seems you can use the ability at the end of a long rest. Part of the long rest. Then, to use it again, you have to wait until you finish a long rest. If I'm reading this right, you can't use the ability immediately again, since your long rest is already finished. Thus, you're no longer at the end of the rest.
In addition, the effect only lasts until you finish that rest.
So, if I'm not mistaken, it looks like this ability works one whole "day" (under standard rules, assuming the character takes a full long rest every night etc.), but then you have to wait a whole "day", during which the ability is not on, until you can use it for the next "day" again.
In other words, a "day" on, a "day" off. This is how I'm reading it, but I didn't see anyone else playing this way and couldn't find anyone else who asked the same (although, tbf, I didn't search very thoroughly). What do you think? Am I completely off or, just maybe, right? Is there any official ruling on the matter?
Ok let us break this down bit by bit
At the end of a long rest, you can touch one nonmagical object that is a suit of armor or a simple or martial weapon. (So this basically states you can use this ability at the end of a long rest)
Until the end of your next long restor until you die, the object becomes a magic item, granting a +1 bonus to AC if it’s armor or a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls if it’s a weapon. (This bit says the item gains the effect until the end of your next long rest whenever that may be)
Once you use this feature, you can’t use it again until you finish a long rest. (This last bit says the ability refreshes when you finish a long rest)
So in my opinion the end of your long rest basically implies that you have finished a long rest hence the ability has refreshed which would allow you to use it again which conveniently is also when the effect runs out from the previous usage of the ability. Therefore as long as you keep using the ability on the same item it can pretty much have the +1 effect permanently.
You have been told, repeatedly and by multiple people, that you misread the feature. So you aren't just asking a question. You're arguing in bad faith by doubling-down on a bad interpretation; rather than listen to the advice of others.
That's because I already knew the consensus is that way. I didn't want the answer that is unrelated to my question. I wanted to bring a new approach and see if others agree it could be read that way, or maybe they could show me exactly why it couldn't or at least an official ruling that will clarify this problem. InquisitiveCoder was the closest to answer my question, although he wasn't exactly on spot.
For a reason like that, they could phrase it similarly to the Artificer's Magical Tinkering ability.
If you try to exceed your maximum, the oldest property immediately ends, and then the new property applies.
In this case, the maximum is one and can be phrased that way. If they don't mean it that way, why the inconsistencies?
Most likely because the devs wanted you to make your choice at the start of your adventuring day. Regaining your use on a long rest but letting you use it any point throughout the day doesn't accomplish that. It also presumably takes some time to perform the blessing, so it makes sense to incorporate it into a rest. If they'd wanted to allow using it in the middle of the day they could've specified "long or short rest" for when you can use it, but they didn't.
Why would they phrase it one way twice, but then another at the end of the feature's description, if it means the same? Could be inconsistency. Maybe. Looking at Jeremy's answer, which should confirm what everyone is thinking, he still doesn't address that.
There's many ways to say the same thing in the English language. Rephrasing something doesn't automatically imply you mean something different.
They're emphasizing slightly different things in each sentence. The feature starts with when you can use it; "at the end of a long rest" emphasizes timing. The other sentence is talking about regaining your use of the feature, so the requirement is phrased in terms of something you do to get it back. They're still talking about the same thing, but the second wording is more natural for the context in which it's being used.
tl;dr language can be nuanced, the rules aren't written in legalese, and the writers aren't trying to trick you.
I think the only thing that can be said here is that if FireCat wants to have the interpretation that the "finished" stage of a rest is somehow after the "end" of that rest, then they are allowed to have that interpretation. If you want to make this ability "day on, day off", you can. (What's interesting is the post that was apparently the closest to answering the question actually implies the opposite order - you "finish" a rest PRIOR to "ending" it.) You acknowledged that the consensus reads the "end" of the rest as happening in the same stage as the "finish" stage. You do not want to agree with that interpretation; other people don't want to agree with your interpretation.
My input on this is to note that it says "until you finish a long rest", not "until AFTER you finish a long rest"; so if we're arguing order of operations, it implies that the "finish" stage is integrated into the rest at some point - most likely during the "end" stage.
TL:DR: CAN it be read that way? Technically, yes, if you want to. Will other people want to? Most likely not. DnD is full of cases like that.
I think the only thing that can be said here is that if FireCat wants to have the interpretation that the "finished" stage of a rest is somehow after the "end" of that rest, then they are allowed to have that interpretation. If you want to make this ability "day on, day off", you can. (What's interesting is the post that was apparently the closest to answering the question actually implies the opposite order - you "finish" a rest PRIOR to "ending" it.) You acknowledged that the consensus reads the "end" of the rest as happening in the same stage as the "finish" stage. You do not want to agree with that interpretation; other people don't want to agree with your interpretation.
My input on this is to note that it says "until you finish a long rest", not "until AFTER you finish a long rest"; so if we're arguing order of operations, it implies that the "finish" stage is integrated into the rest at some point - most likely during the "end" stage.
TL:DR: CAN it be read that way? Technically, yes, if you want to. Will other people want to? Most likely not. DnD is full of cases like that.
You're right. It's pretty much what happened. I wanted to see if others shared my view - clearly not. I thought it offers a more interesting dynamic in which the cleric has to think about using it rather than just always have it on. For the same reason, I don't like the "I repeatedly cast guidance on myself until something happens" approach. Especially for Clerics. That's another discussion though.
It is an interesting dynamic to consider, but I think that it would put the Forge domain at a disadvantage compared to other domains, whose level 1 ability is often a cantrip PLUS something (spare the dying being ranged and bonus action), skills (knowledge gets skills WITH expertise AND languages), additional damage (bonus attacks or a lightning bolt), or something particularly flavorful (boosted healing, in a few forms). Or some combination of the above. The point being that most of these are "always available" abilities. Even the limited ones are per long rest. If Forge was the ONLY one with an every-other-day approach, it would be a bit imbalanced, especially since their heavy armor isn't unique either. That's probably the WHY of why your interpretation isn't considered more.
(I'm actually about to play a Forge cleric for the first time in my next campaign, so I've been going through the forums for tips)
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So first, facts:
So, considering the bolded parts, it seems you can use the ability at the end of a long rest. Part of the long rest. Then, to use it again, you have to wait until you finish a long rest. If I'm reading this right, you can't use the ability immediately again, since your long rest is already finished. Thus, you're no longer at the end of the rest.
In addition, the effect only lasts until you finish that rest.
So, if I'm not mistaken, it looks like this ability works one whole "day" (under standard rules, assuming the character takes a full long rest every night etc.), but then you have to wait a whole "day", during which the ability is not on, until you can use it for the next "day" again.
In other words, a "day" on, a "day" off. This is how I'm reading it, but I didn't see anyone else playing this way and couldn't find anyone else who asked the same (although, tbf, I didn't search very thoroughly). What do you think? Am I completely off or, just maybe, right? Is there any official ruling on the matter?
Varielky
No, you're reading it incorrectly. There are two elements at work in this feature: the ability to imbue a mundane item with magic and how often this can be done.
At the end of each long rest, the cleric gains the ability to bless a piece of weapon or armor with magic. And that magic lasts until the end of their next long rest. Functionally, they have a near-perpetual +1 bonus to some piece of equipment. I say near-perpetual because there it does require an action to do bless the object.
The intent is to allow for a flexible bonus. If your cleric forgoes a long rest, for whatever reason, the blessing does not expire.
I think you misunderstood the question.
The feature's description clearly states that the blessing must be applied at the end of the long rest. That means, right before the long rest ends. It also lasts until that point.
On the other hand, you only gain the ability to use the ability again after you finish the long rest. Meaning, no longer in the rest. The rest ended already.
Considering that fact, the blessing is now gone and you can't use it now. You must wait until the end of your next long rest.
Thus, it creates a cycle of on-off-on-off...
If the intention was to simply have a perpetual bonus (or near-perpetual, but the action doesn't really matter in most cases), I doubt they'd put the long rest restriction on the duration. There's also the difference between their phrasing in "at the end of the long rest" and "until you finish a long rest".
This could be wrong or unintended, maybe. Then again, maybe not. Is my claim clearer now?
Varielky
Your claim is erroneous. The feature refreshes as the duration expires.
"At the end of a long rest" simply means immediately after you finish a long rest. Whenever you finish a long rest the previous bonus expires and you have the option to use it again, possibly on a different object. It's similar to preparing spells in that regard; you're limited to doing so once per day but you don't get to postpone the decision.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
I agree with Jounichi and coder. The ability refreshes just as the duration runs out, so you can always have it on a single item.
Firecat, the long rest restriction is so that a 1st level cleric can't just start churning out permanent magic items. Otherwise the party can just wait a few days while the cleric gets to work and everyone has +1 weapons and armor before they even leave the house. As is, it allows a small, but not game breaking bonus for one character. And the long rest also allow some flexibility in which item gets the bonus, which might change depending on what the characters expect to face.
For a reason like that, they could phrase it similarly to the Artificer's Magical Tinkering ability.
In this case, the maximum is one and can be phrased that way. If they don't mean it that way, why the inconsistencies?
Why would they phrase it one way twice, but then another at the end of the feature's description, if it means the same? Could be inconsistency. Maybe. Looking at Jeremy's answer, which should confirm what everyone is thinking, he still doesn't address that.
Yes, in the way he writes it, it ends and is restored at the same time. But, to be able to restore it, you need to finish the rest, which should happen after. That's what I'm saying. You could end and restore at the same time, but you don't have a use of the ability to expand to restore it.
Varielky
You're not making any sense. The feature was already used to bless a piece of equipment. In other words, it was expended. If the ability was never expended, then it doesn't need to recharge and is still available.
It is possible for the blessing to expire and the blessing "recharging" to happen at the same time. If you're quibbling over alleged inconsistencies in language, then consider their respective sources. They were written two years apart, and the features expressly work differently. One can only affect one object. The other affects multiple objects in sequence. They're apples and oranges.
Yes, it was expanded. What I'm saying is that the time in which you were allowed to bestow the blessing again passes before you regain the ability again. I know, it's different, but maybe an example will help you understand:
A wizard can use a short rest to regain a number of spell slots, up to half his wizard level. He can only use this once per long rest. If the wizard used this ability in a short rest, then took another one, he can't use it again. He takes a short rest, so it's appropriate, but he doesn't have a use of the ability to expand, so he can't use it. He must complete a long rest first.
Similarly, the way I read the Blessing of the Forge, you only regain the ability to bless the object after the rest has ended, while you can only bestow the blessing at the end, meaning, part of that long rest. You can try to bless, it's the appropriate time, but you've already expanded the use of the ability the other day.
The inconsistencies are not only between the books but also in the feature itself. Again: "At the end of the long rest" and "until you finish a long rest". These are the two phrasings in the same text.
Varielky
There is no inconsistency. The blessing expires at the same time the cleric can bestow a new blessing.
The domain has been in publication for...almost 40 months. [REDACTED]
I found a weird description. Asked if anyone else wondered about it. The answers I got ignore my question, it looks like you don't even read my posts. I'm trying to clarify my question in case it's my fault that it's misunderstood, yet you still answer some question I didn't ask.
I'm not going to explain it again, read above or just don't reply.
Varielky
You have been told, repeatedly and by multiple people, that you misread the feature. So you aren't just asking a question. You're arguing in bad faith by doubling-down on a bad interpretation; rather than listen to the advice of others.
That's because I already knew the consensus is that way. I didn't want the answer that is unrelated to my question. I wanted to bring a new approach and see if others agree it could be read that way, or maybe they could show me exactly why it couldn't or at least an official ruling that will clarify this problem. InquisitiveCoder was the closest to answer my question, although he wasn't exactly on spot.
Varielky
We all understood your question. We all disagree with your conclusion and interpretation is what happened.
Ok let us break this down bit by bit
At the end of a long rest, you can touch one nonmagical object that is a suit of armor or a simple or martial weapon. (So this basically states you can use this ability at the end of a long rest)
Until the end of your next long rest or until you die, the object becomes a magic item, granting a +1 bonus to AC if it’s armor or a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls if it’s a weapon. (This bit says the item gains the effect until the end of your next long rest whenever that may be)
Once you use this feature, you can’t use it again until you finish a long rest. (This last bit says the ability refreshes when you finish a long rest)
So in my opinion the end of your long rest basically implies that you have finished a long rest hence the ability has refreshed which would allow you to use it again which conveniently is also when the effect runs out from the previous usage of the ability. Therefore as long as you keep using the ability on the same item it can pretty much have the +1 effect permanently.
Okay. To what end?
Most likely because the devs wanted you to make your choice at the start of your adventuring day. Regaining your use on a long rest but letting you use it any point throughout the day doesn't accomplish that. It also presumably takes some time to perform the blessing, so it makes sense to incorporate it into a rest. If they'd wanted to allow using it in the middle of the day they could've specified "long or short rest" for when you can use it, but they didn't.
tl;dr language can be nuanced, the rules aren't written in legalese, and the writers aren't trying to trick you.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
I think the only thing that can be said here is that if FireCat wants to have the interpretation that the "finished" stage of a rest is somehow after the "end" of that rest, then they are allowed to have that interpretation. If you want to make this ability "day on, day off", you can. (What's interesting is the post that was apparently the closest to answering the question actually implies the opposite order - you "finish" a rest PRIOR to "ending" it.)
You acknowledged that the consensus reads the "end" of the rest as happening in the same stage as the "finish" stage. You do not want to agree with that interpretation; other people don't want to agree with your interpretation.
My input on this is to note that it says "until you finish a long rest", not "until AFTER you finish a long rest"; so if we're arguing order of operations, it implies that the "finish" stage is integrated into the rest at some point - most likely during the "end" stage.
TL:DR: CAN it be read that way? Technically, yes, if you want to. Will other people want to? Most likely not.
DnD is full of cases like that.
You're right. It's pretty much what happened. I wanted to see if others shared my view - clearly not. I thought it offers a more interesting dynamic in which the cleric has to think about using it rather than just always have it on. For the same reason, I don't like the "I repeatedly cast guidance on myself until something happens" approach. Especially for Clerics. That's another discussion though.
Varielky
It is an interesting dynamic to consider, but I think that it would put the Forge domain at a disadvantage compared to other domains, whose level 1 ability is often a cantrip PLUS something (spare the dying being ranged and bonus action), skills (knowledge gets skills WITH expertise AND languages), additional damage (bonus attacks or a lightning bolt), or something particularly flavorful (boosted healing, in a few forms). Or some combination of the above. The point being that most of these are "always available" abilities. Even the limited ones are per long rest. If Forge was the ONLY one with an every-other-day approach, it would be a bit imbalanced, especially since their heavy armor isn't unique either. That's probably the WHY of why your interpretation isn't considered more.
(I'm actually about to play a Forge cleric for the first time in my next campaign, so I've been going through the forums for tips)