It is an interesting dynamic to consider, but I think that it would put the Forge domain at a disadvantage compared to other domains, whose level 1 ability is often a cantrip PLUS something (spare the dying being ranged and bonus action), skills (knowledge gets skills WITH expertise AND languages), additional damage (bonus attacks or a lightning bolt), or something particularly flavorful (boosted healing, in a few forms). Or some combination of the above. The point being that most of these are "always available" abilities. Even the limited ones are per long rest. If Forge was the ONLY one with an every-other-day approach, it would be a bit imbalanced, especially since their heavy armor isn't unique either. That's probably the WHY of why your interpretation isn't considered more.
(I'm actually about to play a Forge cleric for the first time in my next campaign, so I've been going through the forums for tips)
When you put it that way, looks like you're right. Still, I don't really like this 'almost-infinite' abilities. Choose either infinite or not and stick to it.
What if it were a +2 bonus, but for a limited time? Say, [Cleric level] hours, but can be apllied in short rests too? Would that remain balanced? Or perhaps, without the "at the end of a rest" limitation, but casting takes more than an action (10 min, 1 hour... smth)? It'll also make it more into a ceremony of blessing rather than slapping a piece of metal because you had a good night sleep and now it cuts extra well because reasons.
Or possibly, just make it infinite. You can swap the blessing at the end of a long rest to another item, but otherwise it stays until you die. Mechanically it is the same for almost everyone.
I think that "infinite" is how a lot of people view it, mechanically. The only difference would be if, say, you got separated from all your weapons and armor before the rest happened - thrown in prison or something. I think the argument you have is valid, but it just results in niche cases like that.
As to the higher bonus idea, that would be interesting. I don't believe it currently states that it takes an action to do so; just that you do it. I always imagined it being a true blessing/ritual, perhaps part and parcel along with choosing your prepared spells for the day, which does take time (if you change them, but it always made more sense to me that you'd need to re-prepare old ones anyways. Might be a 3.5 holdover, though). The only issue with the cleric level buff would be the scaling - maybe base it on Wisdom modifier instead? Forge Cleric's never appeared much about pushing for that +5, but that could give a reason. At early levels, +2 is a lot - the equivalent of a Very Rare magic item. Just food for thought. I like hearing different people's takes on things, especially when I'm first looking at a character. Lets me be prepared for different situations, so thanks for this! :-)
It is an interesting dynamic to consider, but I think that it would put the Forge domain at a disadvantage compared to other domains, whose level 1 ability is often a cantrip PLUS something (spare the dying being ranged and bonus action), skills (knowledge gets skills WITH expertise AND languages), additional damage (bonus attacks or a lightning bolt), or something particularly flavorful (boosted healing, in a few forms). Or some combination of the above. The point being that most of these are "always available" abilities. Even the limited ones are per long rest. If Forge was the ONLY one with an every-other-day approach, it would be a bit imbalanced, especially since their heavy armor isn't unique either. That's probably the WHY of why your interpretation isn't considered more.
(I'm actually about to play a Forge cleric for the first time in my next campaign, so I've been going through the forums for tips)
When you put it that way, looks like you're right. Still, I don't really like this 'almost-infinite' abilities. Choose either infinite or not and stick to it.
What if it were a +2 bonus, but for a limited time? Say, [Cleric level] hours, but can be apllied in short rests too? Would that remain balanced? Or perhaps, without the "at the end of a rest" limitation, but casting takes more than an action (10 min, 1 hour... smth)? It'll also make it more into a ceremony of blessing rather than slapping a piece of metal because you had a good night sleep and now it cuts extra well because reasons.
Or possibly, just make it infinite. You can swap the blessing at the end of a long rest to another item, but otherwise it stays until you die. Mechanically it is the same for almost everyone.
Well here's something in your favor. It' not really an interesting Dynamic to have it a day on and a day off because then I'd just put it on my weapon instead.
And near infinite is a lie. It assumes that i'm only ever going to put it on one item and leave there by refreshing it every day indefinitely. But I already have a built in option. I already have a choice on how to use it each day. Complicating it with when I use it doesn't make that better for what it gives. It only makes it worse.
Every day I have the option to put it on a weapon or put it on armor. I can only do one or the other and Every day I must choose and I can easily choose to do it on a weapon one day and on an armor the next day and rotate between them. Or because of circumstances while I'm busy with one thing I know an ally might be getting into a fight (perhaps a 1 on 1 gladitorial event is happening and we have time to prepare) I can always put it on that allies weapon that day instead of my own equipment. Or I can put it on the Fighters Armor. Or I can put it on the rogues dagger because we really need him to be able to hit to deliver the poison that will weaken the otherwise unbeatable enemy so that we can fight it. Or whatever else because I might be focused more on being ranged and spell casting so the bonuses don't benefit me as much.
(And yes. All of these different scenario's or uses are things that I've either had come up as part of individual stories or uses I've done with the Blessing in question)
It is an interesting dynamic to consider, but I think that it would put the Forge domain at a disadvantage compared to other domains, whose level 1 ability is often a cantrip PLUS something (spare the dying being ranged and bonus action), skills (knowledge gets skills WITH expertise AND languages), additional damage (bonus attacks or a lightning bolt), or something particularly flavorful (boosted healing, in a few forms). Or some combination of the above. The point being that most of these are "always available" abilities. Even the limited ones are per long rest. If Forge was the ONLY one with an every-other-day approach, it would be a bit imbalanced, especially since their heavy armor isn't unique either. That's probably the WHY of why your interpretation isn't considered more.
(I'm actually about to play a Forge cleric for the first time in my next campaign, so I've been going through the forums for tips)
When you put it that way, looks like you're right. Still, I don't really like this 'almost-infinite' abilities. Choose either infinite or not and stick to it.
What if it were a +2 bonus, but for a limited time? Say, [Cleric level] hours, but can be apllied in short rests too? Would that remain balanced? Or perhaps, without the "at the end of a rest" limitation, but casting takes more than an action (10 min, 1 hour... smth)? It'll also make it more into a ceremony of blessing rather than slapping a piece of metal because you had a good night sleep and now it cuts extra well because reasons.
Or possibly, just make it infinite. You can swap the blessing at the end of a long rest to another item, but otherwise it stays until you die. Mechanically it is the same for almost everyone.
Well here's something in your favor. It' not really an interesting Dynamic to have it a day on and a day off because then I'd just put it on my weapon instead.
And near infinite is a lie. It assumes that i'm only ever going to put it on one item and leave there by refreshing it every day indefinitely. But I already have a built in option. I already have a choice on how to use it each day. Complicating it with when I use it doesn't make that better for what it gives. It only makes it worse.
Every day I have the option to put it on a weapon or put it on armor. I can only do one or the other and Every day I must choose and I can easily choose to do it on a weapon one day and on an armor the next day and rotate between them. Or because of circumstances while I'm busy with one thing I know an ally might be getting into a fight (perhaps a 1 on 1 gladitorial event is happening and we have time to prepare) I can always put it on that allies weapon that day instead of my own equipment. Or I can put it on the Fighters Armor. Or I can put it on the rogues dagger because we really need him to be able to hit to deliver the poison that will weaken the otherwise unbeatable enemy so that we can fight it. Or whatever else because I might be focused more on being ranged and spell casting so the bonuses don't benefit me as much.
(And yes. All of these different scenario's or uses are things that I've either had come up as part of individual stories or uses I've done with the Blessing in question)
That's great, but not what I personally see. Most of those I've seen just add a permanent +1 to a certain weapon or armour they choose at the beginning and only change that when they get that weapon or armour in a magical variation, then they move it to another item where it stays for a long time again.
It is an interesting dynamic to consider, but I think that it would put the Forge domain at a disadvantage compared to other domains, whose level 1 ability is often a cantrip PLUS something (spare the dying being ranged and bonus action), skills (knowledge gets skills WITH expertise AND languages), additional damage (bonus attacks or a lightning bolt), or something particularly flavorful (boosted healing, in a few forms). Or some combination of the above. The point being that most of these are "always available" abilities. Even the limited ones are per long rest. If Forge was the ONLY one with an every-other-day approach, it would be a bit imbalanced, especially since their heavy armor isn't unique either. That's probably the WHY of why your interpretation isn't considered more.
(I'm actually about to play a Forge cleric for the first time in my next campaign, so I've been going through the forums for tips)
When you put it that way, looks like you're right. Still, I don't really like this 'almost-infinite' abilities. Choose either infinite or not and stick to it.
What if it were a +2 bonus, but for a limited time? Say, [Cleric level] hours, but can be apllied in short rests too? Would that remain balanced? Or perhaps, without the "at the end of a rest" limitation, but casting takes more than an action (10 min, 1 hour... smth)? It'll also make it more into a ceremony of blessing rather than slapping a piece of metal because you had a good night sleep and now it cuts extra well because reasons.
Or possibly, just make it infinite. You can swap the blessing at the end of a long rest to another item, but otherwise it stays until you die. Mechanically it is the same for almost everyone.
Well here's something in your favor. It' not really an interesting Dynamic to have it a day on and a day off because then I'd just put it on my weapon instead.
And near infinite is a lie. It assumes that i'm only ever going to put it on one item and leave there by refreshing it every day indefinitely. But I already have a built in option. I already have a choice on how to use it each day. Complicating it with when I use it doesn't make that better for what it gives. It only makes it worse.
Every day I have the option to put it on a weapon or put it on armor. I can only do one or the other and Every day I must choose and I can easily choose to do it on a weapon one day and on an armor the next day and rotate between them. Or because of circumstances while I'm busy with one thing I know an ally might be getting into a fight (perhaps a 1 on 1 gladitorial event is happening and we have time to prepare) I can always put it on that allies weapon that day instead of my own equipment. Or I can put it on the Fighters Armor. Or I can put it on the rogues dagger because we really need him to be able to hit to deliver the poison that will weaken the otherwise unbeatable enemy so that we can fight it. Or whatever else because I might be focused more on being ranged and spell casting so the bonuses don't benefit me as much.
(And yes. All of these different scenario's or uses are things that I've either had come up as part of individual stories or uses I've done with the Blessing in question)
That's great, but not what I personally see. Most of those I've seen just add a permanent +1 to a certain weapon or armour they choose at the beginning and only change that when they get that weapon or armour in a magical variation, then they move it to another item where it stays for a long time again.
That's a sign of one of three things... That we play in different kinds of groups, That the players potentially forget that the ability is movable, and/or that the player has some level of mentality about their usefulness if they don't have it.
All three things are possible and without really talking to the player to understand their mentality about such things it's hare to say which and how many of those apply. Keep in mind that a lot of guides don't even come close to the idea of using it on anybody else so it's possible they never even considered it even if they did realize or consider that it's movable from day to day. Most guides are written purely from white room theory crafting in a fairly selfish manner of boosting ones self without considerations of the group or potential party synergies that one might keep in mind. If they get a benefit it's often ancillary to using it for the Person's own character first. Some guides even write things like Bless this way even though depending on party makeup Bless may actually be best on other members of the party instead just because bless might help their own pc with some things sometimes. Usually advising instead that if something like Bless doesn't help them then they should be using Abilities X, Y, or Z to up their damage out putper turn (or occasionally something else).
There are several reasons wizards tends to word things funny.
1. To make it feel different to avoid comparisons or sameness feeling.
2. weird exceptions to the rules.
3.Hidden synergies.
4. someone was out of sorts or confused the day of writing and it made it past quality control.
In this instance, I think its worded the way it is for reason #2. There are Magic or situations in modules that "provide the benefit Of a long rest" without actually taking one. It seems Wizards did not want a forge cleric to allow changing the Item in these circumstances. Receiving the benefit of a long rest is not the same as actually finishing one even if finishing one Happens during most of them. Jouinchi was right when he referred to it as two separate issues in one ability. Assignment is different than the refresh but they wanted to ensure they usually happen at the same time. It seems designed to give a flexible +1 bonus each day to the forge cleric. This type of scenario is why RAI VS raw discussions exist.
On a separate note: I think any one denying spamming of abilities such as guidance(or blade ward or ) should reconsider Their opinion. It literally punishes out of the box thinking which is what we want in an rpg Or it punishes people for being over prepared and less likely to use their given abilities ever. Especially because of the weirdness where In combat and out of combat both have action economy but are not the same Because turns don't exist outside of combat. Functionally it wouldn't make a difference most of the time anyway and when it would other controls would be in place. Example. guards at a tournament watching for cheating by rules forbidden spellcasting. I would rather reward players for paying attention to their skills than accidentally making a valid ability subpar and discouraging their use.
On a separate note: I think any one denying spamming of abilities such as guidance(or blade ward or ) should reconsider Their opinion. It literally punishes out of the box thinking which is what we want in an rpg Or it punishes people for being over prepared and less likely to use their given abilities ever. Especially because of the weirdness where In combat and out of combat both have action economy but are not the same Because turns don't exist outside of combat. Functionally it wouldn't make a difference most of the time anyway and when it would other controls would be in place. Example. guards at a tournament watching for cheating by rules forbidden spellcasting. I would rather reward players for paying attention to their skills than accidentally making a valid ability subpar and discouraging their use.
Maybe it's just my group, but using Guidance this way makes it mundane. It's just a "yeah I always have it on" ability. They don't actually roleplay asking for it repeatedly or anything like that.
I understand using these tactics in certain situations. Walking alone in a dark dungeon where you know assassins are hiding? Spamming Blade Ward makes sense. There's a good reason for that. Asking for Guidance for no reason at all, not even knowing what you're going to do? It's not creative, it's metagaming. I don't want to punish it, I just want to restrict it. There are many ways to do it. For Guidance, for example, you can ask the caster to specify what they're asking Guidance for. It makes sense.
On a separate note: I think any one denying spamming of abilities such as guidance(or blade ward or ) should reconsider Their opinion. It literally punishes out of the box thinking which is what we want in an rpg Or it punishes people for being over prepared and less likely to use their given abilities ever. Especially because of the weirdness where In combat and out of combat both have action economy but are not the same Because turns don't exist outside of combat. Functionally it wouldn't make a difference most of the time anyway and when it would other controls would be in place. Example. guards at a tournament watching for cheating by rules forbidden spellcasting. I would rather reward players for paying attention to their skills than accidentally making a valid ability subpar and discouraging their use.
Maybe it's just my group, but using Guidance this way makes it mundane. It's just a "yeah I always have it on" ability. They don't actually roleplay asking for it repeatedly or anything like that.
I understand using these tactics in certain situations. Walking alone in a dark dungeon where you know assassins are hiding? Spamming Blade Ward makes sense. There's a good reason for that. Asking for Guidance for no reason at all, not even knowing what you're going to do? It's not creative, it's metagaming. I don't want to punish it, I just want to restrict it. There are many ways to do it. For Guidance, for example, you can ask the caster to specify what they're asking Guidance for. It makes sense.
Guidance only lasts for a moment and it can't possibly cover all the people that might need it at the same time so it's highly impractical to spam and may not help the person it needs to anyway. That's one of the way people try to abuse it that it doesn't really work. An unexpected roll can't benefit from Guidance and You can't predict who would need that roll or when it would come up. There can also be an action or turn order that may cause issues with benefitting from it as well.
It's not to say that it's not useful in it's own way but people tend to try and greatly over power it. That's not just a matter of creativity most of the time when they do it or thinking out of the box. It's actually so inside the box that the way the ability was written actually forbids it without giving a lengthy list of everything it stops which would just get tedious.
Guidance only lasts for a moment and it can't possibly cover all the people that might need it at the same time so it's highly impractical to spam and may not help the person it needs to anyway. That's one of the way people try to abuse it that it doesn't really work. An unexpected roll can't benefit from Guidance and You can't predict who would need that roll or when it would come up. There can also be an action or turn order that may cause issues with benefitting from it as well.
It's not to say that it's not useful in it's own way but people tend to try and greatly over power it. That's not just a matter of creativity most of the time when they do it or thinking out of the box. It's actually so inside the box that the way the ability was written actually forbids it without giving a lengthy list of everything it stops which would just get tedious.
This is why I am more In favor of comments like "I constantly refresh guidance on myself or other pc" Than the situation where a person says "I'm Going to do (insert skill)" Then the next says "I cast Guidance". Sometimes you aren't in a position where that would be possible but it was 30 seconds before.
We should probably create a new thread if anyone is interested in further discussion Of {Cantrips and rituals that are "abused" or recast constantly}
Me, taking notes on this whole thread since I've rarely played clerics before, let alone a forge one: write that down, write that down!
But on the original topic, I hadn't considered that some people would NEVER switch around what they had their bonus on until they had to. I assumed that it would always be a "choose the best option, sometimes changing to see what works" setup - in my group, it's likely going on my cleric as the tank much of the time, but there might be an occasion to buff the ranger if we know what they're facing for the day. It does lose some of its interest if you don't have to think about where it goes, I agree.
Guidance only lasts for a moment and it can't possibly cover all the people that might need it at the same time so it's highly impractical to spam and may not help the person it needs to anyway. That's one of the way people try to abuse it that it doesn't really work. An unexpected roll can't benefit from Guidance and You can't predict who would need that roll or when it would come up. There can also be an action or turn order that may cause issues with benefitting from it as well.
It's not to say that it's not useful in it's own way but people tend to try and greatly over power it. That's not just a matter of creativity most of the time when they do it or thinking out of the box. It's actually so inside the box that the way the ability was written actually forbids it without giving a lengthy list of everything it stops which would just get tedious.
This is why I am more In favor of comments like "I constantly refresh guidance on myself or other pc" Than the situation where a person says "I'm Going to do (insert skill)" Then the next says "I cast Guidance". Sometimes you aren't in a position where that would be possible but it was 30 seconds before.
We should probably create a new thread if anyone is interested in further discussion Of {Cantrips and rituals that are "abused" or recast constantly}
If they are doing that. They are hindering themselves. There are a lot of times to go "Ok but how are you going to do that? Your constantly casting a spell" Or "You did this stuff and had this long conversation instead so you didn't have time to refresh guidance. This isn't actually punishing the player. It's just putting some realism that they are forgetting back into it. Or it could cause them grief because they are constantly casting magic in places where they maybe don't want to be doing that because people may get the wrong idea and can't tell the difference between a Cantrip and Finger of Death. This is actually the job of the DM and it's not the DM being harsh or stopping creative thinking. It's simply applying consequences to the actions they insist on taking.
Me, taking notes on this whole thread since I've rarely played clerics before, let alone a forge one: write that down, write that down!
But on the original topic, I hadn't considered that some people would NEVER switch around what they had their bonus on until they had to. I assumed that it would always be a "choose the best option, sometimes changing to see what works" setup - in my group, it's likely going on my cleric as the tank much of the time, but there might be an occasion to buff the ranger if we know what they're facing for the day. It does lose some of its interest if you don't have to think about where it goes, I agree.
there can be a variety of reasons to shift them around that often get over looked. It doesn't help that often we aren't taught. "How best can I use this ability" but more "How best can I use this ability for myself."
I think if I were the DM instead of the cleric wanting to use this, I'd rule that you don't have to use it the second you wake up. That seems like kind of a weird stipulation? I can think of half a dozen other stipulations that make more sense- it only works for one fight, it only works for X amount of minutes, you can only do it every other day or once a week, you can't use it on the same object twice within X timespan... "You have to use it when you wake up or not use it that day" is a very strange rule? Espeically since it doesn't explain why it has to be immediately after a long rest? Like it's a powerful ability, yeah, but it's a weird choice of how to nerf it. I agree with nerfing it but the how is a weird choice, like dipping lemon slices in chocolate. It sounds weird, is probably fine and functional and all, but is just a very odd choice when you could dip oranges or strawberries or bananas or something in the fondue.
I plan to have it be "once per long rest, but you can't use it on the same object twice for a week" for my cleric, so I can't repeatedly bless our fighter's rapier or whatever. At least not until my cleric gets more powerful?
I think if I were the DM instead of the cleric wanting to use this, I'd rule that you don't have to use it the second you wake up. That seems like kind of a weird stipulation? I can think of half a dozen other stipulations that make more sense- it only works for one fight, it only works for X amount of minutes, you can only do it every other day or once a week, you can't use it on the same object twice within X timespan... "You have to use it when you wake up or not use it that day" is a very strange rule? Espeically since it doesn't explain why it has to be immediately after a long rest? Like it's a powerful ability, yeah, but it's a weird choice of how to nerf it. I agree with nerfing it but the how is a weird choice, like dipping lemon slices in chocolate. It sounds weird, is probably fine and functional and all, but is just a very odd choice when you could dip oranges or strawberries or bananas or something in the fondue.
I plan to have it be "once per long rest, but you can't use it on the same object twice for a week" for my cleric, so I can't repeatedly bless our fighter's rapier or whatever. At least not until my cleric gets more powerful?
There are actually a number of abilities throughout the game that work in such a manner. This is not in any way unique bout this. it just assumes that whatever is being done to apply these buffs is being done as your daily preparation when you have time to do it because it may be involved in some way without going into detail of what it is to give people room to flavor it how they might like.
Nor is it anything particularly game breaking. You may not know what you are going to encounter throughout the day... but that's jut another thing you take into consideration when using it.
That being said. At your table with your DM your free to do things differently for you as a home brew.
Well I know it's not unique, but it just feels like a very odd stipulation is all in terms of like... what makes sense when you think about the RP aspects and stuff? Like it just seems weird for this ability to be "you have to do it when you wake up". Like it doesn't totally seem like a thing you'd need to do in the morning? It doesn't just feel like a normal prep thing, I mean you don't have to choose your weapon in the morning you can switch it during a battle, which is more what this is like than choosing your spells in the morning? So to me it's just a very, very strange choice to have this particular ability be "the first thing you do in the morning before breakfast". Maybe because the image in my head is of a character waking up and rolling over and touching a weapon and sleep-mumbling about it. I just find it odd for this ability is all.
Well I know it's not unique, but it just feels like a very odd stipulation is all in terms of like... what makes sense when you think about the RP aspects and stuff? Like it just seems weird for this ability to be "you have to do it when you wake up". Like it doesn't totally seem like a thing you'd need to do in the morning? It doesn't just feel like a normal prep thing, I mean you don't have to choose your weapon in the morning you can switch it during a battle, which is more what this is like than choosing your spells in the morning? So to me it's just a very, very strange choice to have this particular ability be "the first thing you do in the morning before breakfast". Maybe because the image in my head is of a character waking up and rolling over and touching a weapon and sleep-mumbling about it. I just find it odd for this ability is all.
It feels that way to you because that's what you want to be. You like the idea of being able to switch it on the fly and max out your mechanical benefit in any given fight when you want to. However the average character doesn't change their weapons that often, nor do they have the need to usually. And if your in a fight where you do need to. Then you end up in a situation where you may have used the power on a weapon thta you needed to switch to but then in the next fight you go back to your more normal weapon and find you've used up your Blessing on the other one. So now your forced to use that other weapon all day or go without the blessing for potentially more than one fight. Instead of just the one fight you might have switched weapons for and not had the buff had you just done it in the morning on your normal one.
And it just as easily is a thing that is your morning prep.
I could easily describe it to you as a special spell that takes 2 hours to cast to temporarily enchant whatever item your doing and then it would suddenly sound strange to try and do before combat. Specially as fast as most combats start. Your not going to stop and ask the enemy to wait for 2 hours while you temporarily enchant a piece of equipment and they aren't going to want to let you do that.
Your taking a lack of forced fluff and making it into an instantaneous touch. That can be partly blamed upon the way things are written. But here is something to keep in mind. All the ability actually tells you is touching the item is involved. But that is not necessarily all that is involved. it could take some kind of simple sanctification ritual or intonement of prayer to your god or any number of other things as well besides that touch.
The responses to this topic are rather disheartening. The OP makes a solid point about the verbiage. The verbiage *IS* inconsistent. Yes, everyone chooses to gloss over it in favor of the spirit of the intent. But, the order of operations *DOES* suggest that you can only use this every other day. The verbiage should have been:
Perform a Long Rest
Once the Long Rest is completed, you must IMMEDIATELY take an action to use this feature. You assign the bonus.
You cannot use it again until you perform another Long Rest.
The next time you BEGIN a Long Rest, you lose the old boost.
The responses to this topic are rather disheartening. The OP makes a solid point about the verbiage. The verbiage *IS* inconsistent. Yes, everyone chooses to gloss over it in favor of the spirit of the intent. But, the order of operations *DOES* suggest that you can only use this every other day. The verbiage should have been:
Perform a Long Rest
Once the Long Rest is completed, you must IMMEDIATELY take an action to use this feature. You assign the bonus.
You cannot use it again until you perform another Long Rest.
The next time you BEGIN a Long Rest, you lose the old boost.
Rinse and Repeat
Wrong on all counts. There's nothing wrong with the feature's verbiage.
After a long rest, the cleric has the option of using this feature. And the buff lasts until the end of their next long rest, at which point they can use it again.
Well I know it's not unique, but it just feels like a very odd stipulation is all in terms of like... what makes sense when you think about the RP aspects and stuff? Like it just seems weird for this ability to be "you have to do it when you wake up". Like it doesn't totally seem like a thing you'd need to do in the morning? It doesn't just feel like a normal prep thing, I mean you don't have to choose your weapon in the morning you can switch it during a battle, which is more what this is like than choosing your spells in the morning? So to me it's just a very, very strange choice to have this particular ability be "the first thing you do in the morning before breakfast". Maybe because the image in my head is of a character waking up and rolling over and touching a weapon and sleep-mumbling about it. I just find it odd for this ability is all.
It feels that way to you because that's what you want to be. You like the idea of being able to switch it on the fly and max out your mechanical benefit in any given fight when you want to. However the average character doesn't change their weapons that often, nor do they have the need to usually. And if your in a fight where you do need to. Then you end up in a situation where you may have used the power on a weapon thta you needed to switch to but then in the next fight you go back to your more normal weapon and find you've used up your Blessing on the other one. So now your forced to use that other weapon all day or go without the blessing for potentially more than one fight. Instead of just the one fight you might have switched weapons for and not had the buff had you just done it in the morning on your normal one.
And it just as easily is a thing that is your morning prep.
I could easily describe it to you as a special spell that takes 2 hours to cast to temporarily enchant whatever item your doing and then it would suddenly sound strange to try and do before combat. Specially as fast as most combats start. Your not going to stop and ask the enemy to wait for 2 hours while you temporarily enchant a piece of equipment and they aren't going to want to let you do that.
Your taking a lack of forced fluff and making it into an instantaneous touch. That can be partly blamed upon the way things are written. But here is something to keep in mind. All the ability actually tells you is touching the item is involved. But that is not necessarily all that is involved. it could take some kind of simple sanctification ritual or intonement of prayer to your god or any number of other things as well besides that touch.
What is it with people and being astoundingly rude? There is absolutely zero need to take this kind of tone with anyone on this site. At no point did I say "you should be able to change it willy-nilly whenever you want to!" just that it's stupid to force players to have to make that a priority in the morning. There is nothing stopping this ability from being used at any point IN a day, as long as it is only used ONCE. I'm not sure why you're comparing this to two-hour spells, other than to just be extremely rude and condescending. There is no note of how long it takes you to use Blessing of the Forge. RAW, it can be instantaneous. There is no "it could take XYZ". It's just touch. Nothing more. There is nothing saying it takes 2 hours. Nothing saying you have to commit a ritual or prayer or anything else. Just. Touch. And since it's just touch, you should be able to do it at any point in a day, not just first thing in the morning.
When you put it that way, looks like you're right. Still, I don't really like this 'almost-infinite' abilities. Choose either infinite or not and stick to it.
What if it were a +2 bonus, but for a limited time? Say, [Cleric level] hours, but can be apllied in short rests too? Would that remain balanced? Or perhaps, without the "at the end of a rest" limitation, but casting takes more than an action (10 min, 1 hour... smth)? It'll also make it more into a ceremony of blessing rather than slapping a piece of metal because you had a good night sleep and now it cuts extra well because reasons.
Or possibly, just make it infinite. You can swap the blessing at the end of a long rest to another item, but otherwise it stays until you die. Mechanically it is the same for almost everyone.
Varielky
I think that "infinite" is how a lot of people view it, mechanically. The only difference would be if, say, you got separated from all your weapons and armor before the rest happened - thrown in prison or something. I think the argument you have is valid, but it just results in niche cases like that.
As to the higher bonus idea, that would be interesting. I don't believe it currently states that it takes an action to do so; just that you do it. I always imagined it being a true blessing/ritual, perhaps part and parcel along with choosing your prepared spells for the day, which does take time (if you change them, but it always made more sense to me that you'd need to re-prepare old ones anyways. Might be a 3.5 holdover, though). The only issue with the cleric level buff would be the scaling - maybe base it on Wisdom modifier instead? Forge Cleric's never appeared much about pushing for that +5, but that could give a reason. At early levels, +2 is a lot - the equivalent of a Very Rare magic item.
Just food for thought. I like hearing different people's takes on things, especially when I'm first looking at a character. Lets me be prepared for different situations, so thanks for this! :-)
Well here's something in your favor. It' not really an interesting Dynamic to have it a day on and a day off because then I'd just put it on my weapon instead.
And near infinite is a lie. It assumes that i'm only ever going to put it on one item and leave there by refreshing it every day indefinitely. But I already have a built in option. I already have a choice on how to use it each day. Complicating it with when I use it doesn't make that better for what it gives. It only makes it worse.
Every day I have the option to put it on a weapon or put it on armor. I can only do one or the other and Every day I must choose and I can easily choose to do it on a weapon one day and on an armor the next day and rotate between them. Or because of circumstances while I'm busy with one thing I know an ally might be getting into a fight (perhaps a 1 on 1 gladitorial event is happening and we have time to prepare) I can always put it on that allies weapon that day instead of my own equipment. Or I can put it on the Fighters Armor. Or I can put it on the rogues dagger because we really need him to be able to hit to deliver the poison that will weaken the otherwise unbeatable enemy so that we can fight it. Or whatever else because I might be focused more on being ranged and spell casting so the bonuses don't benefit me as much.
(And yes. All of these different scenario's or uses are things that I've either had come up as part of individual stories or uses I've done with the Blessing in question)
That's great, but not what I personally see. Most of those I've seen just add a permanent +1 to a certain weapon or armour they choose at the beginning and only change that when they get that weapon or armour in a magical variation, then they move it to another item where it stays for a long time again.
Varielky
That's a sign of one of three things... That we play in different kinds of groups, That the players potentially forget that the ability is movable, and/or that the player has some level of mentality about their usefulness if they don't have it.
All three things are possible and without really talking to the player to understand their mentality about such things it's hare to say which and how many of those apply. Keep in mind that a lot of guides don't even come close to the idea of using it on anybody else so it's possible they never even considered it even if they did realize or consider that it's movable from day to day. Most guides are written purely from white room theory crafting in a fairly selfish manner of boosting ones self without considerations of the group or potential party synergies that one might keep in mind. If they get a benefit it's often ancillary to using it for the Person's own character first. Some guides even write things like Bless this way even though depending on party makeup Bless may actually be best on other members of the party instead just because bless might help their own pc with some things sometimes. Usually advising instead that if something like Bless doesn't help them then they should be using Abilities X, Y, or Z to up their damage out putper turn (or occasionally something else).
There are several reasons wizards tends to word things funny.
1. To make it feel different to avoid comparisons or sameness feeling.
2. weird exceptions to the rules.
3.Hidden synergies.
4. someone was out of sorts or confused the day of writing and it made it past quality control.
In this instance, I think its worded the way it is for reason #2. There are Magic or situations in modules that "provide the benefit Of a long rest" without actually taking one. It seems Wizards did not want a forge cleric to allow changing the Item in these circumstances. Receiving the benefit of a long rest is not the same as actually finishing one even if finishing one Happens during most of them. Jouinchi was right when he referred to it as two separate issues in one ability. Assignment is different than the refresh but they wanted to ensure they usually happen at the same time. It seems designed to give a flexible +1 bonus each day to the forge cleric. This type of scenario is why RAI VS raw discussions exist.
On a separate note: I think any one denying spamming of abilities such as guidance(or blade ward or ) should reconsider Their opinion. It literally punishes out of the box thinking which is what we want in an rpg Or it punishes people for being over prepared and less likely to use their given abilities ever. Especially because of the weirdness where In combat and out of combat both have action economy but are not the same Because turns don't exist outside of combat. Functionally it wouldn't make a difference most of the time anyway and when it would other controls would be in place. Example. guards at a tournament watching for cheating by rules forbidden spellcasting. I would rather reward players for paying attention to their skills than accidentally making a valid ability subpar and discouraging their use.
Maybe it's just my group, but using Guidance this way makes it mundane. It's just a "yeah I always have it on" ability. They don't actually roleplay asking for it repeatedly or anything like that.
I understand using these tactics in certain situations. Walking alone in a dark dungeon where you know assassins are hiding? Spamming Blade Ward makes sense. There's a good reason for that. Asking for Guidance for no reason at all, not even knowing what you're going to do? It's not creative, it's metagaming. I don't want to punish it, I just want to restrict it. There are many ways to do it. For Guidance, for example, you can ask the caster to specify what they're asking Guidance for. It makes sense.
Varielky
Guidance only lasts for a moment and it can't possibly cover all the people that might need it at the same time so it's highly impractical to spam and may not help the person it needs to anyway. That's one of the way people try to abuse it that it doesn't really work. An unexpected roll can't benefit from Guidance and You can't predict who would need that roll or when it would come up. There can also be an action or turn order that may cause issues with benefitting from it as well.
It's not to say that it's not useful in it's own way but people tend to try and greatly over power it. That's not just a matter of creativity most of the time when they do it or thinking out of the box. It's actually so inside the box that the way the ability was written actually forbids it without giving a lengthy list of everything it stops which would just get tedious.
This is why I am more In favor of comments like "I constantly refresh guidance on myself or other pc" Than the situation where a person says "I'm Going to do (insert skill)" Then the next says "I cast Guidance". Sometimes you aren't in a position where that would be possible but it was 30 seconds before.
We should probably create a new thread if anyone is interested in further discussion Of {Cantrips and rituals that are "abused" or recast constantly}
Me, taking notes on this whole thread since I've rarely played clerics before, let alone a forge one: write that down, write that down!
But on the original topic, I hadn't considered that some people would NEVER switch around what they had their bonus on until they had to. I assumed that it would always be a "choose the best option, sometimes changing to see what works" setup - in my group, it's likely going on my cleric as the tank much of the time, but there might be an occasion to buff the ranger if we know what they're facing for the day. It does lose some of its interest if you don't have to think about where it goes, I agree.
If they are doing that. They are hindering themselves. There are a lot of times to go "Ok but how are you going to do that? Your constantly casting a spell" Or "You did this stuff and had this long conversation instead so you didn't have time to refresh guidance. This isn't actually punishing the player. It's just putting some realism that they are forgetting back into it. Or it could cause them grief because they are constantly casting magic in places where they maybe don't want to be doing that because people may get the wrong idea and can't tell the difference between a Cantrip and Finger of Death. This is actually the job of the DM and it's not the DM being harsh or stopping creative thinking. It's simply applying consequences to the actions they insist on taking.
there can be a variety of reasons to shift them around that often get over looked. It doesn't help that often we aren't taught. "How best can I use this ability" but more "How best can I use this ability for myself."
Hm, the intended function of this feature is very clear both RAW and RAI. What's this long discussion about?
Altrazin Aghanes - Wizard/Fighter
Varpulis Windhowl - Fighter
Skolson Demjon - Cleric/Fighter
I think if I were the DM instead of the cleric wanting to use this, I'd rule that you don't have to use it the second you wake up. That seems like kind of a weird stipulation? I can think of half a dozen other stipulations that make more sense- it only works for one fight, it only works for X amount of minutes, you can only do it every other day or once a week, you can't use it on the same object twice within X timespan... "You have to use it when you wake up or not use it that day" is a very strange rule? Espeically since it doesn't explain why it has to be immediately after a long rest? Like it's a powerful ability, yeah, but it's a weird choice of how to nerf it. I agree with nerfing it but the how is a weird choice, like dipping lemon slices in chocolate. It sounds weird, is probably fine and functional and all, but is just a very odd choice when you could dip oranges or strawberries or bananas or something in the fondue.
I plan to have it be "once per long rest, but you can't use it on the same object twice for a week" for my cleric, so I can't repeatedly bless our fighter's rapier or whatever. At least not until my cleric gets more powerful?
There are actually a number of abilities throughout the game that work in such a manner. This is not in any way unique bout this. it just assumes that whatever is being done to apply these buffs is being done as your daily preparation when you have time to do it because it may be involved in some way without going into detail of what it is to give people room to flavor it how they might like.
Nor is it anything particularly game breaking. You may not know what you are going to encounter throughout the day... but that's jut another thing you take into consideration when using it.
That being said. At your table with your DM your free to do things differently for you as a home brew.
Well I know it's not unique, but it just feels like a very odd stipulation is all in terms of like... what makes sense when you think about the RP aspects and stuff? Like it just seems weird for this ability to be "you have to do it when you wake up". Like it doesn't totally seem like a thing you'd need to do in the morning? It doesn't just feel like a normal prep thing, I mean you don't have to choose your weapon in the morning you can switch it during a battle, which is more what this is like than choosing your spells in the morning? So to me it's just a very, very strange choice to have this particular ability be "the first thing you do in the morning before breakfast". Maybe because the image in my head is of a character waking up and rolling over and touching a weapon and sleep-mumbling about it. I just find it odd for this ability is all.
It feels that way to you because that's what you want to be. You like the idea of being able to switch it on the fly and max out your mechanical benefit in any given fight when you want to. However the average character doesn't change their weapons that often, nor do they have the need to usually. And if your in a fight where you do need to. Then you end up in a situation where you may have used the power on a weapon thta you needed to switch to but then in the next fight you go back to your more normal weapon and find you've used up your Blessing on the other one. So now your forced to use that other weapon all day or go without the blessing for potentially more than one fight. Instead of just the one fight you might have switched weapons for and not had the buff had you just done it in the morning on your normal one.
And it just as easily is a thing that is your morning prep.
I could easily describe it to you as a special spell that takes 2 hours to cast to temporarily enchant whatever item your doing and then it would suddenly sound strange to try and do before combat. Specially as fast as most combats start. Your not going to stop and ask the enemy to wait for 2 hours while you temporarily enchant a piece of equipment and they aren't going to want to let you do that.
Your taking a lack of forced fluff and making it into an instantaneous touch. That can be partly blamed upon the way things are written. But here is something to keep in mind. All the ability actually tells you is touching the item is involved. But that is not necessarily all that is involved. it could take some kind of simple sanctification ritual or intonement of prayer to your god or any number of other things as well besides that touch.
The responses to this topic are rather disheartening. The OP makes a solid point about the verbiage. The verbiage *IS* inconsistent. Yes, everyone chooses to gloss over it in favor of the spirit of the intent. But, the order of operations *DOES* suggest that you can only use this every other day. The verbiage should have been:
Perform a Long Rest
Once the Long Rest is completed, you must IMMEDIATELY take an action to use this feature. You assign the bonus.
You cannot use it again until you perform another Long Rest.
The next time you BEGIN a Long Rest, you lose the old boost.
Rinse and Repeat
Wrong on all counts. There's nothing wrong with the feature's verbiage.
After a long rest, the cleric has the option of using this feature. And the buff lasts until the end of their next long rest, at which point they can use it again.
What is it with people and being astoundingly rude? There is absolutely zero need to take this kind of tone with anyone on this site. At no point did I say "you should be able to change it willy-nilly whenever you want to!" just that it's stupid to force players to have to make that a priority in the morning. There is nothing stopping this ability from being used at any point IN a day, as long as it is only used ONCE. I'm not sure why you're comparing this to two-hour spells, other than to just be extremely rude and condescending. There is no note of how long it takes you to use Blessing of the Forge. RAW, it can be instantaneous. There is no "it could take XYZ". It's just touch. Nothing more. There is nothing saying it takes 2 hours. Nothing saying you have to commit a ritual or prayer or anything else. Just. Touch. And since it's just touch, you should be able to do it at any point in a day, not just first thing in the morning.