I am playing a moon druid and wondering about the rules and mechanics around using wildshape to turn into a giant eagle, grappling and then dragging the enemy through spike growth while flying. I think its reasonable to assume that Eagle claws should be able to grapple.
Assuming the grapple check is successful, grappling rules state you can drag the opponent up to half your movement. So of an 80 foot fly speed you could potentially drag a guy 40 feet through spike growth while flying, and up to another 80 feet if you dash as a bonus action (multiclass into rogue for cunning action).
However under carrying capacity rules, pushing, dragging or lifting anything above your carrying capacity restricts your movement to 5 feet. A giant eagle has a carrying capacity of 480 lbs.
Which rule do you use?
Can the giant eagle grapple and move half their speed (as per grappling rules) any creature up to one size larger? You can also move a grappled creature two sizes smaller with no movement penalty, so in this case a size small creature.
Or
Should the giant eagle that has grappled a creature use carring capacity rules (because of flying) which would mean any creature under 480lbs could be carried at full (or half?) movement but any creature over that weight would slow its movement to 5 feet?
What are the rules for flying and grappling in this scenario?
And would the movement rules be the same if giant eagle grappled a creature and flew straight up really high and dropped the opponent.
By RAW I do not believe there's anything that can make a grappled creature be considered carrying weight, so the rule of halved movement would still be appliable.
However, I think the RAI on the halved speed on "carring a grappled creature" is related on the capabillity of the target to resist it, so the question that last is: that grappled target can impose the same dificulty to the moviment of the eagle in the air as much as it can impose dificulty while it have its feet on the ground?
I would say that it can shake it self, poke, swing in a way that make the flyght harder than if it was carrying a inanimate object. So I would keep the rules on grapple in order to do not make that a advantage to the attacker bigger than it already is (which I think that can be mechanically unfair to the target).
About flew straight up really high a think is the same rule as normal:
At any of the targets turn it can attempt to escape as an action. So, unless it escapes, the eagle can carry it as high as it can fly. Also if the target escapes and have no flying speed it will fall anyway.
The falling rules also apply, so maybe that worth the STR checks within some rounds for a combo of falling damage + spike growth damage.
BUT HERES THE THREAT: a grappled creature still can attempt to grapple back the eagle. If it try it and succeed so, the eagle speed becomes 0 and since it has no hover abillity both will start a embraced dive to the spikes.
****Make note of that last part from Helton, about being counter grappled... because it's SUPER dangerous. Most opponents will have twice your HP when you are a Giant Eagle and will likely survive the fall. Avoid grappling anything that is not two sizes smaller than you (small) unless you are certain about beating them in a Grapple check, because this plan can backfire very quickly!!
Specific beats general so the specific rule on grappling creatures would apply rather than the general encumbrance rule for carrying stuff. The specific rule says you can drag any creature you can grapple, it just halves your speed unless it's two sizes smaller.
Plaguescarred makes a good point that this was probably done to avoid having to worry about monster weights that aren't listed anywhere. It also serves to ensure creatures size large and bigger can be moved in combat since they would very commonly weigh more than the carrying capacity of any creature their own size or smaller. As an example of a size L creature, an average horse is 890 lbs. So if you use encumbrance rules even a 20 strength size L creature couldn't move a grappled horse more than 5ft since their carrying capacity is only 600lbs. The math doesn't get better with size increases. A Tarrasque (Str 30) has a carrying capacity of 3600lbs so according to encumbrance rules it wouldn't be able to move some creatures of even size large more than 5ft/rnd. I'm fudging a bit here since there aren't any official guides to weight by size in 5e but in 3.5 the chart put size L creatures at 500lbs to 2 tons (4000lbs). Bottom line using a simple rule for moving grappled creatures based on size avoids all this math as well as the silly results that might keep us from doing cool stuff.
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I am playing a moon druid and wondering about the rules and mechanics around using wildshape to turn into a giant eagle, grappling and then dragging the enemy through spike growth while flying. I think its reasonable to assume that Eagle claws should be able to grapple.
Assuming the grapple check is successful, grappling rules state you can drag the opponent up to half your movement. So of an 80 foot fly speed you could potentially drag a guy 40 feet through spike growth while flying, and up to another 80 feet if you dash as a bonus action (multiclass into rogue for cunning action).
However under carrying capacity rules, pushing, dragging or lifting anything above your carrying capacity restricts your movement to 5 feet. A giant eagle has a carrying capacity of 480 lbs.
Which rule do you use?
Can the giant eagle grapple and move half their speed (as per grappling rules) any creature up to one size larger? You can also move a grappled creature two sizes smaller with no movement penalty, so in this case a size small creature.
Or
Should the giant eagle that has grappled a creature use carring capacity rules (because of flying) which would mean any creature under 480lbs could be carried at full (or half?) movement but any creature over that weight would slow its movement to 5 feet?
What are the rules for flying and grappling in this scenario?
And would the movement rules be the same if giant eagle grappled a creature and flew straight up really high and dropped the opponent.
Thanks
By RAW I do not believe there's anything that can make a grappled creature be considered carrying weight, so the rule of halved movement would still be appliable.
However, I think the RAI on the halved speed on "carring a grappled creature" is related on the capabillity of the target to resist it, so the question that last is: that grappled target can impose the same dificulty to the moviment of the eagle in the air as much as it can impose dificulty while it have its feet on the ground?
I would say that it can shake it self, poke, swing in a way that make the flyght harder than if it was carrying a inanimate object. So I would keep the rules on grapple in order to do not make that a advantage to the attacker bigger than it already is (which I think that can be mechanically unfair to the target).
About flew straight up really high a think is the same rule as normal:
At any of the targets turn it can attempt to escape as an action. So, unless it escapes, the eagle can carry it as high as it can fly. Also if the target escapes and have no flying speed it will fall anyway.
The falling rules also apply, so maybe that worth the STR checks within some rounds for a combo of falling damage + spike growth damage.
BUT HERES THE THREAT: a grappled creature still can attempt to grapple back the eagle. If it try it and succeed so, the eagle speed becomes 0 and since it has no hover abillity both will start a embraced dive to the spikes.
****Make note of that last part from Helton, about being counter grappled... because it's SUPER dangerous. Most opponents will have twice your HP when you are a Giant Eagle and will likely survive the fall. Avoid grappling anything that is not two sizes smaller than you (small) unless you are certain about beating them in a Grapple check, because this plan can backfire very quickly!!
Thanks. I did not think about think about the opponent grappling back. That is definately something to pay attention to.
I believe the Grapple rules use Moving a Grappled Creature specifically to avoid encumbrance or pulling weight calculation.
Specific beats general so the specific rule on grappling creatures would apply rather than the general encumbrance rule for carrying stuff. The specific rule says you can drag any creature you can grapple, it just halves your speed unless it's two sizes smaller.
Plaguescarred makes a good point that this was probably done to avoid having to worry about monster weights that aren't listed anywhere. It also serves to ensure creatures size large and bigger can be moved in combat since they would very commonly weigh more than the carrying capacity of any creature their own size or smaller. As an example of a size L creature, an average horse is 890 lbs. So if you use encumbrance rules even a 20 strength size L creature couldn't move a grappled horse more than 5ft since their carrying capacity is only 600lbs. The math doesn't get better with size increases. A Tarrasque (Str 30) has a carrying capacity of 3600lbs so according to encumbrance rules it wouldn't be able to move some creatures of even size large more than 5ft/rnd. I'm fudging a bit here since there aren't any official guides to weight by size in 5e but in 3.5 the chart put size L creatures at 500lbs to 2 tons (4000lbs). Bottom line using a simple rule for moving grappled creatures based on size avoids all this math as well as the silly results that might keep us from doing cool stuff.