The new conjure animals is terrible. I know the old one had issues but this new version isn’t it and it doesn’t match the fantasy of actually conjuring animals .
I disagree. The new summoning spells from Tasha's are more mechanically sound making this old version of conjure animals not only problematic but redundant. The new version gives area damage very similar to spirit guardians. I think it's a great change.
The fantasy is different, but still cool. Summon beast still fulfills the animal summon fantasy.
I will need to read the flavor text, but I fully agree that most of the new conjure spells have a very poor flavor. Mechanically they are fine, and the Summon spells in Tasha mostly stole their niche.
The biggest problem with the 2014 Conjure Animals was that it allowed too many beasts on the board at the same time, which was difficult to run and track for the DM. However, the new 2024 rules make Conjure Animals into reflavored Spirit Guardians, which is completely different type of magic and seriously nerfed the spell. They should have just limited the # of animals you could summon and place a table in the back of the PHB for suggested animals, but kept the stat blocks and special abilities of the beasts themselves. Conjure Animals has been a great spell precisely b/c it expanded the party's total action economy and allowed for a variety of useful riders in addition to damage. The new Conjure Animals is easier to run, yes, but has lost both the flavor and the much of the usefulness of the older version. It is a serious nerf.
Yeah, not a fan of the change because I won't use a reflavored spirit guardians as a druid...I stay back of the party. I would have been happy with the change being a limitation on how many animals you can summon (2 at level 3 but you could still upcast to 4 at level 5 spell slot). Or maybe make it a 2nd level spell that can summon 1 of CR 1 or two of CR 1/2.
The biggest problem with the 2014 Conjure Animals was that it allowed too many beasts on the board at the same time, which was difficult to run and track for the DM. However, the new 2024 rules make Conjure Animals into reflavored Spirit Guardians, which is completely different type of magic and seriously nerfed the spell. They should have just limited the # of animals you could summon and place a table in the back of the PHB for suggested animals, but kept the stat blocks and special abilities of the beasts themselves. Conjure Animals has been a great spell precisely b/c it expanded the party's total action economy and allowed for a variety of useful riders in addition to damage. The new Conjure Animals is easier to run, yes, but has lost both the flavor and the much of the usefulness of the older version. It is a serious nerf.
The new Conjure Animals is in no way nerfed. It's a broken spell because they messed up emanations. And the old conjure animals deservedly needed to be destroyed and have something planted over the ashes so it couldn't grow again. It (and worse yet Conjure Woodland Beings) were simply obnoxious.
The biggest problem with the 2014 Conjure Animals was that it allowed too many beasts on the board at the same time, which was difficult to run and track for the DM. However, the new 2024 rules make Conjure Animals into reflavored Spirit Guardians, which is completely different type of magic and seriously nerfed the spell. They should have just limited the # of animals you could summon and place a table in the back of the PHB for suggested animals, but kept the stat blocks and special abilities of the beasts themselves. Conjure Animals has been a great spell precisely b/c it expanded the party's total action economy and allowed for a variety of useful riders in addition to damage. The new Conjure Animals is easier to run, yes, but has lost both the flavor and the much of the usefulness of the older version. It is a serious nerf.
The new Conjure Animals is in no way nerfed. It's a broken spell because they messed up emanations. And the old conjure animals deservedly needed to be destroyed and have something planted over the ashes so it couldn't grow again. It (and worse yet Conjure Woodland Beings) were simply obnoxious.
If you want to summon animals use summon beast.
Summon Beast sucks. Conjure Animals was the only real Druid 3rd level spell of comparable power to the Wizard/Sorcerer's Fireball, which has always been overtuned. The new Conjure Animals has ZERO control ability compared to the old one. It just does damage but also gives the target a saving throw to avoid that damage entirely, making it worse than Spirit Guardians in 2 major ways. Since summoning is a major source of power for Druids in 2014 to 2023, now they are hardly worth playing if we only use 2024 rules. The Wizard class has every advantage over them in combat except maybe for AC, which Wizards are at least on parity with since they have more variety of spells for mitigating or avoiding damage, like Shield, Mirror Image, etc. that don't require Concentration.
Conjure Animals was the only real Druid 3rd level spell of comparable power to the Wizard/Sorcerer's Fireball, which has always been overtuned. The new Conjure Animals has ZERO control ability compared to the old one. It just does damage but also gives the target a saving throw to avoid that damage entirely, making it worse than Spirit Guardians in 2 major ways.
Just as well. Because it's otherwise overwhelmingly better than Spirit Guardians otherwise. Mostly because you don't have to be right in the middle of it but can have the animals wander around without you. And if you're saying "competitive with fireball... ZERO control ability" you're doing something weird; fireball has less control ability than 2024 Conjure Animals. Which actually has a decent amount of control.
Since summoning is a major source of power for Druids in 2014 to 2023, now they are hardly worth playing if we only use 2024 rules. The Wizard class has every advantage over them in combat except maybe for AC, which Wizards are at least on parity with since they have more variety of spells for mitigating or avoiding damage, like Shield, Mirror Image, etc. that don't require Concentration.
If you want to play a wizard then play a wizard. None of the 2024 druids I've played (Moon and Sea) have remotely thought that a wizard was better at being them than they were.
Conjure Animals was the only real Druid 3rd level spell of comparable power to the Wizard/Sorcerer's Fireball, which has always been overtuned. The new Conjure Animals has ZERO control ability compared to the old one. It just does damage but also gives the target a saving throw to avoid that damage entirely, making it worse than Spirit Guardians in 2 major ways.
Just as well. Because it's otherwise overwhelmingly better than Spirit Guardians otherwise. Mostly because you don't have to be right in the middle of it but can have the animals wander around without you. And if you're saying "competitive with fireball... ZERO control ability" you're doing something weird; fireball has less control ability than 2024 Conjure Animals. Which actually has a decent amount of control.
Since summoning is a major source of power for Druids in 2014 to 2023, now they are hardly worth playing if we only use 2024 rules. The Wizard class has every advantage over them in combat except maybe for AC, which Wizards are at least on parity with since they have more variety of spells for mitigating or avoiding damage, like Shield, Mirror Image, etc. that don't require Concentration.
If you want to play a wizard then play a wizard. None of the 2024 druids I've played (Moon and Sea) have remotely thought that a wizard was better at being them than they were.
The point of Druid is to play a Druid. The original Druid from 5E was a reliable and capable Summoner, which most Wizard subclasses could not do well. That was part of the Druid's niche.
If the new Conjure Animals is weaker than the Cleric's Spirit Guardians - AND several other signature Druid/Primal spells got weakened in the new edition, why even bother to play a Druid? Why not just play a Cleric? That's point #1. Point # 2 is that they took something big away from ALL Druids, not just the admittedly unbalanced Moon Druids while doing nothing to nerf Wizards, which as you basically just admitted, have better everything in terms of spellcasting in the game. What's the Druid's niche now, exactly? What can the Druid do that the Cleric or Wizard does not do better? We already know that the most easily breakable spellcaster subclasses are in the Cleric and Wizard classes.
The 2024 PHB was supposed to make Druids both easier AND more popular to play, not just easier. I doubt that these changes will make players want to play the Druid much more than they did before.
That only applies if I'm the GM. Do you think that new roll outs of the official digital tabletop platform will use the 2014 or the 2024 rules? And what about future video games made using D&D rules. They will all likely have to toe the line in terms of following the 2024 ruleset whether they want to or not because having two different rulesets in a computer program gets very messy very fast. So this impacts of a lot of games that I might potentially play, including many I do not GM.
Yeah, not a fan of the change because I won't use a reflavored spirit guardians as a druid...I stay back of the party. I would have been happy with the change being a limitation on how many animals you can summon (2 at level 3 but you could still upcast to 4 at level 5 spell slot). Or maybe make it a 2nd level spell that can summon 1 of CR 1 or two of CR 1/2.
Quick comparison of Spirit Guardians vs. Conjure Animals in 2024 for ease of everyone's reference.
Spirit Guardians
* Range: Self only, 15 foot radius
* Duration: Concentration, up to 10 min
* Damage: 3d8 necro or radiant with a WIS saving throw for half damage
* Condition Rider on Opponents: Slows all enemies or non-designate creatures that enter it's radius Regardless of saving throw
* Effect on Self: None
Conjure Animals (New)
* Range: Up to 60 feet, effect area being 10' X 10' block
* Duration: Concentration, up to 10 min
* Damage: 3d10 magical slashing with DEX save to completely avoid it damage
* Condition Rider: none
* Effect on Self: Advantage on STR saving throws IF the emanation is w/in 5 feet of your location
So as we see from the comparison above, Spirit Guardians is better than Conjure Animals in every way except, possibly, Range, and IF you really want to make better STR saving throws (but that sacrifices some of that Range improvement). In theory, Spirit Guardians does less damage than Conjure Animals since the die is a unit smaller, but Spirit Guardians doing Some damage no matter what and slows enemies no matter what, so it's actually a good deal stronger than Conjure Animals if you play tactically and wear heavy armor.
That only applies if I'm the GM. Do you think that new roll outs of the official digital tabletop platform will use the 2014 or the 2024 rules? And what about future video games made using D&D rules. They will all likely have to toe the line in terms of following the 2024 ruleset whether they want to or not because having two different rulesets in a computer program gets very messy very fast. So this impacts of a lot of games that I might potentially play, including many I do not GM.
The 2024 changes to Conjure Animals were only made to avoid slowing down the game. If you have a way to run the 2014 spell without slowing down the game, there's no reason not to allow it. 2024 changes to wild shape were made for the same reasons: so the game doesn't slow down. If someone playing a druid is pro-active and has researched the stat blocks of beasts of the relevant CR level, there's no reason to limit druids to the small number of wild shape forms found in the 2024 RAW.
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Started playing AD&D in the late 70s and stopped in the mid-80s. Started immersing myself into 5e in 2023
That only applies if I'm the GM. Do you think that new roll outs of the official digital tabletop platform will use the 2014 or the 2024 rules? And what about future video games made using D&D rules. They will all likely have to toe the line in terms of following the 2024 ruleset whether they want to or not because having two different rulesets in a computer program gets very messy very fast. So this impacts of a lot of games that I might potentially play, including many I do not GM.
The 2024 changes to Conjure Animals were only made to avoid slowing down the game. If you have a way to run the 2014 spell without slowing down the game, there's no reason not to allow it. 2024 changes to wild shape were made for the same reasons: so the game doesn't slow down. If someone playing a druid is pro-active and has researched the stat blocks of beasts of the relevant CR level, there's no reason to limit druids to the small number of wild shape forms found in the 2024 RAW.
The number of creatures shows the game way down. If you're running 8 creatures from conjure animals (which is the most powerful way to cast the spell) it's a slog. Upcastng it to get increasingly more ceatures is impossible to manage unless you're using an excel document. I agree that the old version of the spell was cool conceptually, but it had so many issues and could be outrageously powerful. Summon Beast fulfills 99% of the fantasy, it's just not as powerful. I do miss the fun combinations and grabbing the right creatures at the right time. This game in general needs faster combat and i think conjure animals was just the biggest problem so they addressed it.
If I'd have redesigned the spell, I probably would have just killed upcasting it and limited it to 2 creatures. Or maybe 8 but only CR 0 creatures so you could still get your whole party mounts in a pinch but it wouldn't be super effective in combat. I dunno. Or just do what they did.
I think limiting the # of animals when upcasting is a good way to retain the 2014 spell. Then again, I don't have a problem with the 2024 version either. But I think some version of the 2014 spell should be allowed as long as it doesn't slow down the game.
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Started playing AD&D in the late 70s and stopped in the mid-80s. Started immersing myself into 5e in 2023
That only applies if I'm the GM. Do you think that new roll outs of the official digital tabletop platform will use the 2014 or the 2024 rules? And what about future video games made using D&D rules. They will all likely have to toe the line in terms of following the 2024 ruleset whether they want to or not because having two different rulesets in a computer program gets very messy very fast. So this impacts of a lot of games that I might potentially play, including many I do not GM.
The 2024 changes to Conjure Animals were only made to avoid slowing down the game. If you have a way to run the 2014 spell without slowing down the game, there's no reason not to allow it. 2024 changes to wild shape were made for the same reasons: so the game doesn't slow down. If someone playing a druid is pro-active and has researched the stat blocks of beasts of the relevant CR level, there's no reason to limit druids to the small number of wild shape forms found in the 2024 RAW.
So....you did not actually bother to address any of the points I made. Hmmmm...
Re being/not-being the GM: have conversations with your GM. The general point I was trying to make is that reasonable GMs will allow the 2014 CA spell as long as it doesn't slow down the game. There are lots of unreasonable (and just bad) GMs. Not allowing the use of a spell that doesn't slow down the game is just one of many reasons not to play with a GM.
Re whether a VTT will allow the 2014 CA spell. WoTC says that all of the 2014 stuff is compatible with the 2024 stuff. If a VTT doesn't allow 2014 stuff, that's either a technical or business problem. If a VTTs doesn't integrate the 2014 and 2024 stuff into their VTT, that's a flawed VTT. And it appears that the character sheet in D&D Beyond includes some legacy spells, but not others, which makes no sense and is something that needs fixing asap. There are workarounds for this for online games, but they're not ideal.
Re video games: don't care lol, video game =/= D&D the game.
So, do you have a way to run the 2014 CA spell without slowing down the game?
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Started playing AD&D in the late 70s and stopped in the mid-80s. Started immersing myself into 5e in 2023
Conjure Animals was the only real Druid 3rd level spell of comparable power to the Wizard/Sorcerer's Fireball, which has always been overtuned. The new Conjure Animals has ZERO control ability compared to the old one. It just does damage but also gives the target a saving throw to avoid that damage entirely, making it worse than Spirit Guardians in 2 major ways.
Just as well. Because it's otherwise overwhelmingly better than Spirit Guardians otherwise. Mostly because you don't have to be right in the middle of it but can have the animals wander around without you. And if you're saying "competitive with fireball... ZERO control ability" you're doing something weird; fireball has less control ability than 2024 Conjure Animals. Which actually has a decent amount of control.
Since summoning is a major source of power for Druids in 2014 to 2023, now they are hardly worth playing if we only use 2024 rules. The Wizard class has every advantage over them in combat except maybe for AC, which Wizards are at least on parity with since they have more variety of spells for mitigating or avoiding damage, like Shield, Mirror Image, etc. that don't require Concentration.
If you want to play a wizard then play a wizard. None of the 2024 druids I've played (Moon and Sea) have remotely thought that a wizard was better at being them than they were.
The point of Druid is to play a Druid. The original Druid from 5E was a reliable and capable Summoner, which most Wizard subclasses could not do well. That was part of the Druid's niche.
If the new Conjure Animals is weaker than the Cleric's Spirit Guardians - AND several other signature Druid/Primal spells got weakened in the new edition, why even bother to play a Druid? Why not just play a Cleric? That's point #1. Point # 2 is that they took something big away from ALL Druids, not just the admittedly unbalanced Moon Druids while doing nothing to nerf Wizards, which as you basically just admitted, have better everything in terms of spellcasting in the game. What's the Druid's niche now, exactly? What can the Druid do that the Cleric or Wizard does not do better? We already know that the most easily breakable spellcaster subclasses are in the Cleric and Wizard classes.
The 2024 PHB was supposed to make Druids both easier AND more popular to play, not just easier. I doubt that these changes will make players want to play the Druid much more than they did before.
Yes, the point of playing a druid is to play a druid. But the point of playing a druid is not to have access to 2014 Conjure Animals and Conjure Woodland Beings. Because it sounds like you were fine with the class before, and this change is ruining it for you. So if this is the big issue, and the reason there's no point of playing druids anymore for you, then I don't think you know the point of playing a druid. I've played druids before, I never learned any of these spells. And I had a blast, and I never felt like I was playing a worse version of a cleric or wizard. So if you can't see why play a druid because Conjure spells got updated, it's not the update's fault, it's your limited understanding of the class.
I also don't understand the comparisons. Spirit Guardians and Conjure Animals are 3rd level emanation spells...and that's where the comparison should end. They're not on the same spell lists and they're not supposed to do the same. And if we say that 3rd level spells suck because Spirit Guardians is better, then we're gonna be saying that about most spells. You're talking about one of the best spells in the game (for their level). Same with classes. Wizard and cleric are usually considered the best classes, or close to being the best. So if them being better makes playing druids pointless, well, then that applies to most classes. Again, I don't understand the comparisons.
Druids have A LOT of spells that nobody (except rangers, and only sometimes) gets. And class features that are unique to them. And subclasses that, of course, only they get. If you can't see the point of playing a druid in spite of that then it's your fault, not game design. Sounds like you don't want to play a druid, you want to play a Conjure X spellcaster.
I certainly find the new druid more appealing than the old one. There's no more debate over metal armor. I can choose to use it if I want to. My wildshape can be used for things I might want to do (I don't like shapeshifting).
I'm extremely excited by the new druid and the doors that are opened up.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Yes, the point of playing a druid is to play a druid. But the point of playing a druid is not to have access to 2014 Conjure Animals and Conjure Woodland Beings. Because it sounds like you were fine with the class before, and this change is ruining it for you. So if this is the big issue, and the reason there's no point of playing druids anymore for you, then I don't think you know the point of playing a druid. I've played druids before, I never learned any of these spells. And I had a blast, and I never felt like I was playing a worse version of a cleric or wizard. So if you can't see why play a druid because Conjure spells got updated, it's not the update's fault, it's your limited understanding of the class.
I also don't understand the comparisons. Spirit Guardians and Conjure Animals are 3rd level emanation spells...and that's where the comparison should end. They're not on the same spell lists and they're not supposed to do the same. And if we say that 3rd level spells suck because Spirit Guardians is better, then we're gonna be saying that about most spells. You're talking about one of the best spells in the game (for their level). Same with classes. Wizard and cleric are usually considered the best classes, or close to being the best. So if them being better makes playing druids pointless, well, then that applies to most classes. Again, I don't understand the comparisons.
Druids have A LOT of spells that nobody (except rangers, and only sometimes) gets. And class features that are unique to them. And subclasses that, of course, only they get. If you can't see the point of playing a druid in spite of that then it's your fault, not game design. Sounds like you don't want to play a druid, you want to play a Conjure X spellcaster.
I've seen the changed made the 2024 PHB, so I know this is not exclusively about Conjure Animals. Conjure Minor Elementals, Conjure Woodland Beings, etc. ALL of them got seriously nerfed. Druids had very few spells Improved through the whole revision process. Grasping Vine (4th lvl) was one of the few Druid spells that got a major iimprovement...probably b/c nobody thought that spending a 4th level slot just to grab one creature was worth it. The overall problem is that Druids are a primary spellcasting class, like the Cleric, the Bard, the Sorcerer, and the Wizard. If most of their most powerful spells get nerfed, that takes a lot way from the class.
Yes, I know that some improvements were made to armor proficiency and resource economy via Wildshaping. I think that those were good changes. However, Druid has never been a front-line melee class (with the obs exception of Moon Druid sometimes), so spellcasting has always been their main strength. They are not the Gish class.They are a Spellcasting class. It's insulting that NOT ONLY do many of the most powerful elemental spells remain out of reach of most Druids (think Fireball, Meteor Swarm, Storm Sphere), but they ALSO had their most powerful spells, the ONE area where they could outclass other spellcasters (except maybe Bards) nerfed into the ground. The fact that Conjure Animals is very evidently weaker than Spirit Guardians (which you have not disputed) just further demonstrates that the devs really are pushing Primal casting away in favor of Clerics and Wizards.
The new conjure animals is terrible. I know the old one had issues but this new version isn’t it and it doesn’t match the fantasy of actually conjuring animals .
I disagree. The new summoning spells from Tasha's are more mechanically sound making this old version of conjure animals not only problematic but redundant. The new version gives area damage very similar to spirit guardians. I think it's a great change.
The fantasy is different, but still cool. Summon beast still fulfills the animal summon fantasy.
I will need to read the flavor text, but I fully agree that most of the new conjure spells have a very poor flavor. Mechanically they are fine, and the Summon spells in Tasha mostly stole their niche.
The biggest problem with the 2014 Conjure Animals was that it allowed too many beasts on the board at the same time, which was difficult to run and track for the DM. However, the new 2024 rules make Conjure Animals into reflavored Spirit Guardians, which is completely different type of magic and seriously nerfed the spell. They should have just limited the # of animals you could summon and place a table in the back of the PHB for suggested animals, but kept the stat blocks and special abilities of the beasts themselves. Conjure Animals has been a great spell precisely b/c it expanded the party's total action economy and allowed for a variety of useful riders in addition to damage. The new Conjure Animals is easier to run, yes, but has lost both the flavor and the much of the usefulness of the older version. It is a serious nerf.
Run the spell any way you want at your table
Started playing AD&D in the late 70s and stopped in the mid-80s. Started immersing myself into 5e in 2023
Yeah, not a fan of the change because I won't use a reflavored spirit guardians as a druid...I stay back of the party. I would have been happy with the change being a limitation on how many animals you can summon (2 at level 3 but you could still upcast to 4 at level 5 spell slot). Or maybe make it a 2nd level spell that can summon 1 of CR 1 or two of CR 1/2.
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The new Conjure Animals is in no way nerfed. It's a broken spell because they messed up emanations. And the old conjure animals deservedly needed to be destroyed and have something planted over the ashes so it couldn't grow again. It (and worse yet Conjure Woodland Beings) were simply obnoxious.
If you want to summon animals use summon beast.
Summon Beast sucks. Conjure Animals was the only real Druid 3rd level spell of comparable power to the Wizard/Sorcerer's Fireball, which has always been overtuned. The new Conjure Animals has ZERO control ability compared to the old one. It just does damage but also gives the target a saving throw to avoid that damage entirely, making it worse than Spirit Guardians in 2 major ways. Since summoning is a major source of power for Druids in 2014 to 2023, now they are hardly worth playing if we only use 2024 rules. The Wizard class has every advantage over them in combat except maybe for AC, which Wizards are at least on parity with since they have more variety of spells for mitigating or avoiding damage, like Shield, Mirror Image, etc. that don't require Concentration.
Nope. It's just a second level spell
Just as well. Because it's otherwise overwhelmingly better than Spirit Guardians otherwise. Mostly because you don't have to be right in the middle of it but can have the animals wander around without you. And if you're saying "competitive with fireball... ZERO control ability" you're doing something weird; fireball has less control ability than 2024 Conjure Animals. Which actually has a decent amount of control.
If you want to play a wizard then play a wizard. None of the 2024 druids I've played (Moon and Sea) have remotely thought that a wizard was better at being them than they were.
The point of Druid is to play a Druid. The original Druid from 5E was a reliable and capable Summoner, which most Wizard subclasses could not do well. That was part of the Druid's niche.
If the new Conjure Animals is weaker than the Cleric's Spirit Guardians - AND several other signature Druid/Primal spells got weakened in the new edition, why even bother to play a Druid? Why not just play a Cleric? That's point #1. Point # 2 is that they took something big away from ALL Druids, not just the admittedly unbalanced Moon Druids while doing nothing to nerf Wizards, which as you basically just admitted, have better everything in terms of spellcasting in the game. What's the Druid's niche now, exactly? What can the Druid do that the Cleric or Wizard does not do better? We already know that the most easily breakable spellcaster subclasses are in the Cleric and Wizard classes.
The 2024 PHB was supposed to make Druids both easier AND more popular to play, not just easier. I doubt that these changes will make players want to play the Druid much more than they did before.
That only applies if I'm the GM. Do you think that new roll outs of the official digital tabletop platform will use the 2014 or the 2024 rules? And what about future video games made using D&D rules. They will all likely have to toe the line in terms of following the 2024 ruleset whether they want to or not because having two different rulesets in a computer program gets very messy very fast. So this impacts of a lot of games that I might potentially play, including many I do not GM.
Quick comparison of Spirit Guardians vs. Conjure Animals in 2024 for ease of everyone's reference.
Spirit Guardians
* Range: Self only, 15 foot radius
* Duration: Concentration, up to 10 min
* Damage: 3d8 necro or radiant with a WIS saving throw for half damage
* Condition Rider on Opponents: Slows all enemies or non-designate creatures that enter it's radius Regardless of saving throw
* Effect on Self: None
Conjure Animals (New)
* Range: Up to 60 feet, effect area being 10' X 10' block
* Duration: Concentration, up to 10 min
* Damage: 3d10 magical slashing with DEX save to completely avoid it damage
* Condition Rider: none
* Effect on Self: Advantage on STR saving throws IF the emanation is w/in 5 feet of your location
So as we see from the comparison above, Spirit Guardians is better than Conjure Animals in every way except, possibly, Range, and IF you really want to make better STR saving throws (but that sacrifices some of that Range improvement). In theory, Spirit Guardians does less damage than Conjure Animals since the die is a unit smaller, but Spirit Guardians doing Some damage no matter what and slows enemies no matter what, so it's actually a good deal stronger than Conjure Animals if you play tactically and wear heavy armor.
The 2024 changes to Conjure Animals were only made to avoid slowing down the game. If you have a way to run the 2014 spell without slowing down the game, there's no reason not to allow it. 2024 changes to wild shape were made for the same reasons: so the game doesn't slow down. If someone playing a druid is pro-active and has researched the stat blocks of beasts of the relevant CR level, there's no reason to limit druids to the small number of wild shape forms found in the 2024 RAW.
Started playing AD&D in the late 70s and stopped in the mid-80s. Started immersing myself into 5e in 2023
The number of creatures shows the game way down. If you're running 8 creatures from conjure animals (which is the most powerful way to cast the spell) it's a slog. Upcastng it to get increasingly more ceatures is impossible to manage unless you're using an excel document. I agree that the old version of the spell was cool conceptually, but it had so many issues and could be outrageously powerful. Summon Beast fulfills 99% of the fantasy, it's just not as powerful. I do miss the fun combinations and grabbing the right creatures at the right time. This game in general needs faster combat and i think conjure animals was just the biggest problem so they addressed it.
If I'd have redesigned the spell, I probably would have just killed upcasting it and limited it to 2 creatures. Or maybe 8 but only CR 0 creatures so you could still get your whole party mounts in a pinch but it wouldn't be super effective in combat. I dunno. Or just do what they did.
I think limiting the # of animals when upcasting is a good way to retain the 2014 spell. Then again, I don't have a problem with the 2024 version either. But I think some version of the 2014 spell should be allowed as long as it doesn't slow down the game.
Started playing AD&D in the late 70s and stopped in the mid-80s. Started immersing myself into 5e in 2023
So....you did not actually bother to address any of the points I made. Hmmmm...
Directly addressing your points:
So, do you have a way to run the 2014 CA spell without slowing down the game?
Started playing AD&D in the late 70s and stopped in the mid-80s. Started immersing myself into 5e in 2023
Yes, the point of playing a druid is to play a druid. But the point of playing a druid is not to have access to 2014 Conjure Animals and Conjure Woodland Beings. Because it sounds like you were fine with the class before, and this change is ruining it for you. So if this is the big issue, and the reason there's no point of playing druids anymore for you, then I don't think you know the point of playing a druid. I've played druids before, I never learned any of these spells. And I had a blast, and I never felt like I was playing a worse version of a cleric or wizard. So if you can't see why play a druid because Conjure spells got updated, it's not the update's fault, it's your limited understanding of the class.
I also don't understand the comparisons. Spirit Guardians and Conjure Animals are 3rd level emanation spells...and that's where the comparison should end. They're not on the same spell lists and they're not supposed to do the same. And if we say that 3rd level spells suck because Spirit Guardians is better, then we're gonna be saying that about most spells. You're talking about one of the best spells in the game (for their level). Same with classes. Wizard and cleric are usually considered the best classes, or close to being the best. So if them being better makes playing druids pointless, well, then that applies to most classes. Again, I don't understand the comparisons.
Druids have A LOT of spells that nobody (except rangers, and only sometimes) gets. And class features that are unique to them. And subclasses that, of course, only they get. If you can't see the point of playing a druid in spite of that then it's your fault, not game design. Sounds like you don't want to play a druid, you want to play a Conjure X spellcaster.
I certainly find the new druid more appealing than the old one. There's no more debate over metal armor. I can choose to use it if I want to. My wildshape can be used for things I might want to do (I don't like shapeshifting).
I'm extremely excited by the new druid and the doors that are opened up.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I've seen the changed made the 2024 PHB, so I know this is not exclusively about Conjure Animals. Conjure Minor Elementals, Conjure Woodland Beings, etc. ALL of them got seriously nerfed. Druids had very few spells Improved through the whole revision process. Grasping Vine (4th lvl) was one of the few Druid spells that got a major iimprovement...probably b/c nobody thought that spending a 4th level slot just to grab one creature was worth it. The overall problem is that Druids are a primary spellcasting class, like the Cleric, the Bard, the Sorcerer, and the Wizard. If most of their most powerful spells get nerfed, that takes a lot way from the class.
Yes, I know that some improvements were made to armor proficiency and resource economy via Wildshaping. I think that those were good changes. However, Druid has never been a front-line melee class (with the obs exception of Moon Druid sometimes), so spellcasting has always been their main strength. They are not the Gish class.They are a Spellcasting class. It's insulting that NOT ONLY do many of the most powerful elemental spells remain out of reach of most Druids (think Fireball, Meteor Swarm, Storm Sphere), but they ALSO had their most powerful spells, the ONE area where they could outclass other spellcasters (except maybe Bards) nerfed into the ground. The fact that Conjure Animals is very evidently weaker than Spirit Guardians (which you have not disputed) just further demonstrates that the devs really are pushing Primal casting away in favor of Clerics and Wizards.