You use shields not just for protection but also for offense. You gain the following benefits while you are wielding a shield:
If you take the Attack action on your turn, you can use a bonus action to try to shove a creature within 5 feet of you with your shield.
If you aren't incapacitated, you can add your shield's AC bonus to any Dexterity saving throw you make against a spell or other harmful effect that targets only you.
If you are subjected to an effect that allows you to make a Dexterity saving throw to take only half damage, you can use your reaction to take no damage if you succeed on the saving throw, interposing your shield between yourself and the source of the effect.
Questions:
Can I attack, shield shove, move, action surge attack, shield shove, move? Is that how it works?
Can I attack, shield shove to prone, action surge attack with menacing attack to frighten, then the creature can't stand because technically it would be attempting to move closer to me by standing and can't in a frightened state?
Can I use the shield shove first before attacking with my weapon?
Also, if I shove a creature away and my companion is next to me, do they get an attack of opportunity since technically the creature moved out of melee range?
You use shields not just for protection but also for offense. You gain the following benefits while you are wielding a shield:
If you take the Attack action on your turn, you can use a bonus action to try to shove a creature within 5 feet of you with your shield.
If you aren't incapacitated, you can add your shield's AC bonus to any Dexterity saving throw you make against a spell or other harmful effect that targets only you.
If you are subjected to an effect that allows you to make a Dexterity saving throw to take only half damage, you can use your reaction to take no damage if you succeed on the saving throw, interposing your shield between yourself and the source of the effect.
Questions:
Can I attack, shield shove, move, action surge attack, shield shove, move? Is that how it works?
Can I attack, shield shove to prone, action surge attack with menacing attack to frighten, then the creature can't stand because technically it would be attempting to move closer to me by standing and can't in a frightened state?
Can I use the shield shove first before attacking with my weapon?
Thoughts and opinions on Shield Master?
You would not be able to shove Twice with Action Surge. Action Surge does not give you another bonus action. it doesn't matter how many times you attack you still only have one bonus action to use. Same as when you get extra attack at level 5. You do not get two shoves just because you can attack twice with your attack action. Also in the case of your attacks from extra attack specifically you cannot use your bonus action in the middle of them. You have to complete your attack action and make both attacks first. The Shove cannot be used first because it is not available first. It's triggering effect is physically attacking through your attack action. Your bonus action cannot interrupt this just like it cannot be used in between attacks from extra attack and you have not met the requirements of using the shove from shield master until you've made that initiating attack.
Also. Knocking them Prone and then frightening them does not stop them from standing up. Moving closer to you is a matter of physically moving from one square to another. When they stand up they are still in the same square. This is not getting closer to you except in the most technical of rules lawyering stretches of rules interpretations. Particularly since by the same stretch of technicalities if they have any room at all to move away from you they can actually stand up while doing so and never get within that attempt at a technical 3d boundary anyway.
Finally no. your Companion will not get an AoO just because you shove the enemy. Nothing what so ever triggers from forced movement with the potential exception of fall damage. Not AoO's, Not damage from spells for entering area's. Not saving throws for entering areas. Not damage from terrain that is caused by movement, Not spell damage that is triggered by movement. None of it. Fall Damage only works because after you move them if you happen to knock them into a position where they can fall. then the fall takes place after they have moved and thus fall damage occurs from the fall itself. Not your forced movement and the Fall occurs because Gravity is a thing and nothing is holding them up there if you do happen to force them into that position. Though it's exceedingly rare so don't really count on doing it more than once a campaign unless your DM is ridiculously generous and has an extreme fetish for having all fights happen on cliffsides or atop castle walls or bridges.
That all being Said. While plenty of people don't favor it because all they care about is more damage. Shield Master is a good feat to consider for characters that primarily fight in a sword and board style. It shores up some of the weaknesses that such characters tend to have concerning spells. And Shoving opponents around into effects that trigger on the start of their turn or away from allies so they can move without incurring AoO's of their own can be invaluable in many a fight.
You use shields not just for protection but also for offense. You gain the following benefits while you are wielding a shield:
If you take the Attack action on your turn, you can use a bonus action to try to shove a creature within 5 feet of you with your shield.
If you aren't incapacitated, you can add your shield's AC bonus to any Dexterity saving throw you make against a spell or other harmful effect that targets only you.
If you are subjected to an effect that allows you to make a Dexterity saving throw to take only half damage, you can use your reaction to take no damage if you succeed on the saving throw, interposing your shield between yourself and the source of the effect.
Questions:
Can I attack, shield shove, move, action surge attack, shield shove, move? Is that how it works?
Can I attack, shield shove to prone, action surge attack with menacing attack to frighten, then the creature can't stand because technically it would be attempting to move closer to me by standing and can't in a frightened state?
Can I use the shield shove first before attacking with my weapon?
Thoughts and opinions on Shield Master?
You would not be able to shove Twice with Action Surge. Action Surge does not give you another bonus action. it doesn't matter how many times you attack you still only have one bonus action to use. Same as when you get extra attack at level 5. You do not get two shoves just because you can attack twice with your attack action. Also in the case of your attacks from extra attack specifically you cannot use your bonus action in the middle of them. You have to complete your attack action and make both attacks first. The Shove cannot be used first because it is not available first. It's triggering effect is physically attacking through your attack action. Your bonus action cannot interrupt this just like it cannot be used in between attacks from extra attack and you have not met the requirements of using the shove from shield master until you've made that initiating attack.
Also. Knocking them Prone and then frightening them does not stop them from standing up. Moving closer to you is a matter of physically moving from one square to another. When they stand up they are still in the same square. This is not getting closer to you except in the most technical of rules lawyering stretches of rules interpretations. Particularly since by the same stretch of technicalities if they have any room at all to move away from you they can actually stand up while doing so and never get within that attempt at a technical 3d boundary anyway.
Finally no. your Companion will not get an AoO just because you shove the enemy. Nothing what so ever triggers from forced movement with the potential exception of fall damage. Not AoO's, Not damage from spells for entering area's. Not saving throws for entering areas. Not damage from terrain that is caused by movement, Not spell damage that is triggered by movement. None of it. Fall Damage only works because after you move them if you happen to knock them into a position where they can fall. then the fall takes place after they have moved and thus fall damage occurs from the fall itself. Not your forced movement and the Fall occurs because Gravity is a thing and nothing is holding them up there if you do happen to force them into that position. Though it's exceedingly rare so don't really count on doing it more than once a campaign unless your DM is ridiculously generous and has an extreme fetish for having all fights happen on cliffsides or atop castle walls or bridges.
That all being Said. While plenty of people don't favor it because all they care about is more damage. Shield Master is a good feat to consider for characters that primarily fight in a sword and board style. It shores up some of the weaknesses that such characters tend to have concerning spells. And Shoving opponents around into effects that trigger on the start of their turn or away from allies so they can move without incurring AoO's of their own can be invaluable in many a fight.
Great response. Thanks. I actually asked our DM after I posted this, I try not to ask him too many questions, but he said all the same things. Thanks.
The best part of this is that it effectively gives the shield wielded the evasion effect with their shield- that is super powerful and you can get it before wizards get fireball so you are prepared.
The best part of this is that it effectively gives the shield wielded the evasion effect with their shield- that is super powerful and you can get it before wizards get fireball so you are prepared.
It does. But keep in mind that unlike Rogue Evasion. It has a resource cost which means you can only do it once a turn and only if you haven't used your reaction already.
This is an important distinction to keep in mind but it is useful.
Also The ability against single target dex spells is actually pretty nice. There are actually quite a few. The AC bonus from a shield with a strong magic shield is actually really nice. It's like picking up Dexterity save proficiency up almost. Or if you have it for some reason picking up what just about equates to a form of Expertise in the save. And this one is passive so it's always going to work for you as long as you aren't incapacitated.
@JeremyECrawford As with most bonus actions, you choose the timing, so the Shield Master shove can come before or after the Attack action.
@JeremyECrawford Clarification about bonus actions: if a feature says you can do X as a bonus action if you do Y, you must do Y before you can do X. For Shield Master, that means the bonus action must come after the Attack action. You decide when it happens afterward that turn.
@JeremyECrawford As with most bonus actions, you choose the timing, so the Shield Master shove can come before or after the Attack action.
@JeremyECrawford Clarification about bonus actions: if a feature says you can do X as a bonus action if you do Y, you must do Y before you can do X. For Shield Master, that means the bonus action must come after the Attack action. You decide when it happens afterward that turn.
This is generally the line of tweets that people use to justify NOT using JC clarifications for rules. I generally think he is pretty good but I rule against him on this one....you can pick whenever to use the shove attack if you took the feat. Its use is diminished too much for my taste otherwise.
This is generally the line of tweets that people use to justify NOT using JC clarifications for rules. I generally think he is pretty good but I rule against him on this one....you can pick whenever to use the shove attack if you took the feat. Its use is diminished too much for my taste otherwise.
@forestsfailyou I guess you understand that large swaths of the player base take your rulings as RAW. Explicitly saying you don't replace RAW is a nice first step here into rectifying a lot of table arguments.
@JeremyECrawford If someone has told you that my tweets are rules in the game you're playing, that game isn't D&D. Back in 2015, I kicked off the Sage Advice series with an article about rules, rulings, RAW, and more. From then to now, my tweets have never been RAW: https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/sage-advice/philosophy-behind-rules-and-rulings
This is generally the line of tweets that people use to justify NOT using JC clarifications for rules. I generally think he is pretty good but I rule against him on this one....you can pick whenever to use the shove attack if you took the feat. Its use is diminished too much for my taste otherwise.
@forestsfailyou I guess you understand that large swaths of the player base take your rulings as RAW. Explicitly saying you don't replace RAW is a nice first step here into rectifying a lot of table arguments.
@JeremyECrawford If someone has told you that my tweets are rules in the game you're playing, that game isn't D&D. Back in 2015, I kicked off the Sage Advice series with an article about rules, rulings, RAW, and more. From then to now, my tweets have never been RAW: https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/sage-advice/philosophy-behind-rules-and-rulings
Yeah this was after this "ruling" if I remember correctly.
He basically had to say it due to the pushback if I remember correctly.....but I could be wrong.
This spell targets a rope, but due to its casting time, that doesn't matter - the spell will only ever resolve on a different turn from the cast turn, which means the effect is only targeting the Shield Master when it comes up.
When you first cast the spell, it has two targets - the space where the vine is first summoned (which is the primary target for checking for things like casting through total cover) and the creature the vine goes up against. On later turns, if you bonus action command the vine, it's single-target.
This spell targets a rope, but due to its casting time, that doesn't matter - the spell will only ever resolve on a different turn from the cast turn, which means the effect is only targeting the Shield Master when it comes up.
When you first cast the spell, it has two targets - the space where the vine is first summoned (which is the primary target for checking for things like casting through total cover) and the creature the vine goes up against. On later turns, if you bonus action command the vine, it's single-target.
You use shields not just for protection but also for offense. You gain the following benefits while you are wielding a shield:
If you take the Attack action on your turn, you can use a bonus action to try to shove a creature within 5 feet of you with your shield.
If you aren't incapacitated, you can add your shield's AC bonus to any Dexterity saving throw you make against a spell or other harmful effect that targets only you.
If you are subjected to an effect that allows you to make a Dexterity saving throw to take only half damage, you can use your reaction to take no damage if you succeed on the saving throw, interposing your shield between yourself and the source of the effect.
Questions:
Can I attack, shield shove, move, action surge attack, shield shove, move? Is that how it works?
No. Action surge does not give you another bonus action, and the shield shove is a bonus action.
Can I attack, shield shove to prone, action surge attack with menacing attack to frighten, then the creature can't stand because technically it would be attempting to move closer to me by standing and can't in a frightened state?
Just standing up is not closer to you, and he could be standing to move further away.
Can I use the shield shove first before attacking with my weapon?
Unfortunately, no. It's poorly worded, and Jeremy Crawford originally said you could. But then he later gave a clarification, and by "clarification" I mean he changed his mind and called it a "clarification."
Perhaps his first interpretation is arguably OP, but I think a good balance is if you have to make at least one attack *first*, then you can shove prone, and if you have more attacks those are with advantage. That would put Shield Master in the upper echelon as a great Feat, but IMO just shy of being OP. Tier 2 Fighters would only get 1 attack with advantage IF they managed to knock the enemy prone. Barbarians get advantage at will anyway.
Thoughts and opinions on Shield Master?
In my opinion it's not earth shattering, but it is underrated. Many people opine that it "sucks" - but I completely disagree. It's better if:
1. You have other melee party members to take advantage of you shoving enemies prone.
and/or
2. If you are a Barbarians. Barbarians make way better Shield Masters than Fighters, for a few reasons.
2a. When raging Barbarians have advantage of strength checks, so your shoves are much more reliable
2b. Barbarians have Danger Sense, advantage of dexterity saves from effects they can see. Shield Master allows you to take 0 damage instead of half if you make your save (IF it's an effect that lets you take half damage on a save, like Fireball or a Dragon's breath).
3b. On dexterity saves for effects that only target you (NOT fireball or dragon's breath), SM let's you add +2 to your save, and this synergizes well with Danger Sense. Many traps are single target Dex saves, and some spells. This one is pretty situational, but I'll take it regardless.
Shield Master rewards creative players. Shoving enemies prone to give your allies advantage is an obvious use. But also, you can shove someone off a wall, bridge or cliff. You can shove someone into magical effects like Web, or some other hazard. You can shove a Big-Bad away from your squishy Wizard so he can safely runaway without burning a spell slot or having to use his/her action on disengage.
I feel like if you take shield master, you really want res:dex.
This whole set up arguably works best with a dex based fighter, or a fighter that starts off with a 16 in DEX and STR.
Your shove action relies on Strength Athletics. You're kind of nerfing the main feature if you do a Dex build. The other features do rely on Dex, but this is why I said Barbarians are much better Shield Masters.
I feel like if you take shield master, you really want res:dex.
This whole set up arguably works best with a dex based fighter, or a fighter that starts off with a 16 in DEX and STR.
Your shove action relies on Strength Athletics. You're kind of nerfing the main feature if you do a Dex build. The other features do rely on Dex, but this is why I said Barbarians are much better Shield Masters.
I think thats their point is that if you want to take shield master for the DEX save part you are better off taking res:dex.
If you want to shove as a BA it makes sense...honestly you could just take a level of monk and still do that with a spear if you wanted I guess....but you couldn't use a shield.
Overall its probably a blend of theme/mechanics for WHY you want it. Ultimately the feat feels like a half trade for two different feats melded together and its one reason I have not really taken it much.
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You use shields not just for protection but also for offense. You gain the following benefits while you are wielding a shield:
Questions:
Can I attack, shield shove, move, action surge attack, shield shove, move? Is that how it works?
Can I attack, shield shove to prone, action surge attack with menacing attack to frighten, then the creature can't stand because technically it would be attempting to move closer to me by standing and can't in a frightened state?
Can I use the shield shove first before attacking with my weapon?
Thoughts and opinions on Shield Master?
Also, if I shove a creature away and my companion is next to me, do they get an attack of opportunity since technically the creature moved out of melee range?
You would not be able to shove Twice with Action Surge. Action Surge does not give you another bonus action. it doesn't matter how many times you attack you still only have one bonus action to use. Same as when you get extra attack at level 5. You do not get two shoves just because you can attack twice with your attack action. Also in the case of your attacks from extra attack specifically you cannot use your bonus action in the middle of them. You have to complete your attack action and make both attacks first. The Shove cannot be used first because it is not available first. It's triggering effect is physically attacking through your attack action. Your bonus action cannot interrupt this just like it cannot be used in between attacks from extra attack and you have not met the requirements of using the shove from shield master until you've made that initiating attack.
Also. Knocking them Prone and then frightening them does not stop them from standing up. Moving closer to you is a matter of physically moving from one square to another. When they stand up they are still in the same square. This is not getting closer to you except in the most technical of rules lawyering stretches of rules interpretations. Particularly since by the same stretch of technicalities if they have any room at all to move away from you they can actually stand up while doing so and never get within that attempt at a technical 3d boundary anyway.
Finally no. your Companion will not get an AoO just because you shove the enemy. Nothing what so ever triggers from forced movement with the potential exception of fall damage. Not AoO's, Not damage from spells for entering area's. Not saving throws for entering areas. Not damage from terrain that is caused by movement, Not spell damage that is triggered by movement. None of it. Fall Damage only works because after you move them if you happen to knock them into a position where they can fall. then the fall takes place after they have moved and thus fall damage occurs from the fall itself. Not your forced movement and the Fall occurs because Gravity is a thing and nothing is holding them up there if you do happen to force them into that position. Though it's exceedingly rare so don't really count on doing it more than once a campaign unless your DM is ridiculously generous and has an extreme fetish for having all fights happen on cliffsides or atop castle walls or bridges.
That all being Said. While plenty of people don't favor it because all they care about is more damage. Shield Master is a good feat to consider for characters that primarily fight in a sword and board style. It shores up some of the weaknesses that such characters tend to have concerning spells. And Shoving opponents around into effects that trigger on the start of their turn or away from allies so they can move without incurring AoO's of their own can be invaluable in many a fight.
Great response. Thanks. I actually asked our DM after I posted this, I try not to ask him too many questions, but he said all the same things. Thanks.
Good question. I have a sword and board toon, too, so this was all very helpful.
"He who shall, so shall he... wait, who?" - Quincy the Learned, Elder Scrolls Online
The best part of this is that it effectively gives the shield wielded the evasion effect with their shield- that is super powerful and you can get it before wizards get fireball so you are prepared.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
It does. But keep in mind that unlike Rogue Evasion. It has a resource cost which means you can only do it once a turn and only if you haven't used your reaction already.
This is an important distinction to keep in mind but it is useful.
Also The ability against single target dex spells is actually pretty nice. There are actually quite a few. The AC bonus from a shield with a strong magic shield is actually really nice. It's like picking up Dexterity save proficiency up almost. Or if you have it for some reason picking up what just about equates to a form of Expertise in the save. And this one is passive so it's always going to work for you as long as you aren't incapacitated.
Yeah, the junior evasion is the real meat of the feat while the shove is the cherry on top
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
RAW is not clear
RAI the Dev says no on Twitter after originally saying yes. https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/994993596989300736?lang=en
@JeremyECrawford As with most bonus actions, you choose the timing, so the Shield Master shove can come before or after the Attack action.
@JeremyECrawford Clarification about bonus actions: if a feature says you can do X as a bonus action if you do Y, you must do Y before you can do X. For Shield Master, that means the bonus action must come after the Attack action. You decide when it happens afterward that turn.
This is generally the line of tweets that people use to justify NOT using JC clarifications for rules. I generally think he is pretty good but I rule against him on this one....you can pick whenever to use the shove attack if you took the feat. Its use is diminished too much for my taste otherwise.
Jeremy Crawford also said his tweets are not RAW so i treat it like RAI by having one of the Dev's intent on specific rulings. https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/1205393277513433088?lang=en
@forestsfailyou I guess you understand that large swaths of the player base take your rulings as RAW. Explicitly saying you don't replace RAW is a nice first step here into rectifying a lot of table arguments.
@JeremyECrawford If someone has told you that my tweets are rules in the game you're playing, that game isn't D&D. Back in 2015, I kicked off the Sage Advice series with an article about rules, rulings, RAW, and more. From then to now, my tweets have never been RAW: https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/sage-advice/philosophy-behind-rules-and-rulings
There's a Reddit on this very topics with a bunch of analysis if people are interested in reading more https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/8iqbq3/crawford_reverts_his_shield_master_ruling/
Yeah this was after this "ruling" if I remember correctly.
He basically had to say it due to the pushback if I remember correctly.....but I could be wrong.
Here's a list of every spell in the game which is single target Dex, with attached notes for special cases
Of course, it doesn't only work on spells - e.g. it works against a hunting trap.
Huh....thought it would be more than that...
Man I thought you could use it on a lot more...thats kinda disappointing.
I feel like if you take shield master, you really want res:dex.
This whole set up arguably works best with a dex based fighter, or a fighter that starts off with a 16 in DEX and STR.
or a Paladin with Aura of Protection.
Your shove action relies on Strength Athletics. You're kind of nerfing the main feature if you do a Dex build. The other features do rely on Dex, but this is why I said Barbarians are much better Shield Masters.
I think thats their point is that if you want to take shield master for the DEX save part you are better off taking res:dex.
If you want to shove as a BA it makes sense...honestly you could just take a level of monk and still do that with a spear if you wanted I guess....but you couldn't use a shield.
Overall its probably a blend of theme/mechanics for WHY you want it. Ultimately the feat feels like a half trade for two different feats melded together and its one reason I have not really taken it much.