When I think about it and while have said this build many times before but how would the fighter fare against a War Caster, Polearm Master wizard that casts a spell as soon as they enter the wizard’s reach.
Since most builds require the needed melee range half the time and all it is just those two feats and you have a very powerful combination of abilities then if you add the spell maze, Forcecage or whatever you enter a realm where the fighter loses before he even fights!
Since I’m bored I decided to do the Seppuku Sniper Samurai Nova build that I made awhile back since some changes have occurred and I don’t remember finalizing the build. And remember for the case of ease as for the shove prone tactic I will assume success on the first try. Sorry if I messed it up I’m tired and I did this on a whim though do tell if I messed something up.
Class: Fighter, Level 20, Subclass: Samurai
Fighting Style: Archery (+2 to hit for ranged weapons)
Background: Knight, RETAINERS
Proficiencies: Some of the Mains ones are Arcana, Perception, Acrobatics, Athletics, and I guess Stealth since why not.
Race: Half-elf (Tasha’s to change scores) or Custom Lineage if you deem that making you an elf makes you able to acquire Elven Accuracy and another feat.
Ability Score Increases/Feats: Alert (+5 to initiative), Elven Accuracy (+1 to Dex, Triple Adv.), Piercer (+1 to Dex), Gunner (+1 to Dex, Firearm Prof.), Fey Touched (+1 to Cha, Hex, Misty Step), Sharpshooter (-5 to hit, +10 dmg), Lucky (3 Rerolls).
Final Ability Scores: 16, 20, 9, 12, 8, 14
Equipment: Starting Equipment you take a musket for your starting martial weapon and spend all of your gold and coins for ammo and either than that I don’t really know what else you could do either than try to buy some potions/poison/item that you could drop during your turn as you don’t really need much else.
The Plan: Win initiative. Walk up to the wizard cast Hex (Disadv. Dexterity Checks) making him choose either to Counterspell it or save his reaction for casting Shield. Then you proceed to knock the wizard prone by replacing one of your first attacks with shove. After he is shoved due to Sharpshooter and Gunner when you are within 5ft you aren’t at disadvantage or anything In fact you are at triple advantage (Elven Accuracy) at +7 to hit (you use sharpshooter for the -5 to hit, +10 to dmg). Then after firing the first volley you commit suicide/seppuku using your last attack to activate Strength before Death for another turn and continue your volley on the still prone foe. If you kill the wizard early you can (if you can) use second wind or heal to make sure you don’t start bleeding out and die.
How it Plays Out:
The fighter wins Initiative as he has a +10 and Lucky (It unlikely but for the sake of the build I assume we go first as otherwise it would be quite boring). At the start of the match the fighter was holding the Arcane Focus/Material Components for Hex.
Turn One:
Movement walk towards the wizard. Bonus action cast Hex (Disadv. Dexterity Checks) waiting for the wizard to counterspell it or not counting on the shield spell. At this point we have deviation of paths I will showcase both outcomes at the end. Action: Attack x 4, First attack is a shove at +9 against a wizard (+Lucky) we assume a win but since for extra safety to make sure the samurai absolutely shoves the wizard I will assume he uses TWO attacks for this instance even though the wizard is no doubt not strong. Having two remaining attacks they both target the wizard but with rapid strike it instead becomes three attacks (2 at triple the other at no adv.). Action Surge; Action: Attack x 4, the first three target the wizard. The last remaining attack is used for seppuku. Reaction Strength Before Death Extra Turn.
Turn Two: Strength before Death
Action: Attack x 4, target the wizard along with one rapid strike. Action Surge; Action: Attack x 4, target the wizard. Bonus Action can be used for second wind or something else.
All Attacks Made: 2 Shoves, 2 Rapid Strikes, 13 triple advantage attacks, 1 Seppuku. Since
Each Attack is at 1d12 (6.5) + 5 + 10 [+1d6 (3.5) if have Hex] damage, averaging 21.5 damage without hex and 25 damage with Hex. With 13 triple attacks and two rapid strikes accounting for only damage it come out to either 332.5 (No Hex) or 375 (With Hex). And mind this is even without Piercer or Crits playing into account (just saying from merely the attacks alone you roll a total of 41 dice so if the odds of a natural 20 are well 1 in 20 you have great odds for getting 2 crits). And if you add the 2 crits to the mix the numbers change to 335.5 and 395 respectively.
Also mind to make my life easier I’mma just say that both the rapid strikes are the crits as it makes doing the chance to hit/average damage thingy way more annoying.
Chamce to Hit:
If He Choose The Hex Path: From “Turn One:” AC of the wizard can range from 18, 20, and 23, 25.
Against AC 18: 0.875 x 395 = 345.625 aver. dmg
Against AC 20: 0.784 x 395 = 309.68 aver. dmg
Against AC 23: 0.578125 x 395 = 228.359375 aver. dmg
Against AC 25: 0.385875 x 395 = 152.42 aver. dmg
If He Choose The Counterspell Path: From “Turn One:” AC of the wizard can range from 18, and 20 as he used Counterspell and therefore can’t cast the shield spell.
Against AC 18: 0.875 x 335.5 = 293.5625 aver. dmg
Against AC 20: 0.784 x 335.5 = 263.0320 aver. dmg
I’m no math genius but here are some numbers hastily and tiredly done for this. But since I am to tired to polish this post I’ll post it now.
Since I’m bored I decided to do the Seppuku Sniper Samurai Nova build that I made awhile back since some changes have occurred and I don’t remember finalizing the build. And remember for the case of ease as for the shove prone tactic I will assume success on the first try. Sorry if I messed it up I’m tired and I did this on a whim though do tell if I messed something up.
Class: Fighter, Level 20, Subclass: Samurai
Fighting Style: Archery (+2 to hit for ranged weapons)
Background: Knight, RETAINERS
Proficiencies: Some of the Mains ones are Arcana, Perception, Acrobatics, Athletics, and I guess Stealth since why not.
Race: Half-elf (Tasha’s to change scores) or Custom Lineage if you deem that making you an elf makes you able to acquire Elven Accuracy and another feat.
Ability Score Increases/Feats: Alert (+5 to initiative), Elven Accuracy (+1 to Dex, Triple Adv.), Piercer (+1 to Dex), Gunner (+1 to Dex, Firearm Prof.), Fey Touched (+1 to Cha, Hex, Misty Step), Sharpshooter (-5 to hit, +10 dmg), Lucky (3 Rerolls).
Final Ability Scores: 16, 20, 9, 12, 8, 14
Equipment: Starting Equipment you take a musket for your starting martial weapon and spend all of your gold and coins for ammo and either than that I don’t really know what else you could do either than try to buy some potions/poison/item that you could drop during your turn as you don’t really need much else.
The Plan: Win initiative. Walk up to the wizard cast Hex (Disadv. Dexterity Checks) making him choose either to Counterspell it or save his reaction for casting Shield. Then you proceed to knock the wizard prone by replacing one of your first attacks with shove. After he is shoved due to Sharpshooter and Gunner when you are within 5ft you aren’t at disadvantage or anything In fact you are at triple advantage (Elven Accuracy) at +7 to hit (you use sharpshooter for the -5 to hit, +10 to dmg). Then after firing the first volley you commit suicide/seppuku using your last attack to activate Strength before Death for another turn and continue your volley on the still prone foe. If you kill the wizard early you can (if you can) use second wind or heal to make sure you don’t start bleeding out and die.
How it Plays Out:
The fighter wins Initiative as he has a +10 and Lucky (It unlikely but for the sake of the build I assume we go first as otherwise it would be quite boring). At the start of the match the fighter was holding the Arcane Focus/Material Components for Hex.
Turn One:
Movement walk towards the wizard. Bonus action cast Hex (Disadv. Dexterity Checks) waiting for the wizard to counterspell it or not counting on the shield spell. At this point we have deviation of paths I will showcase both outcomes at the end. Action: Attack x 4, First attack is a shove at +9 against a wizard (+Lucky) we assume a win but since for extra safety to make sure the samurai absolutely shoves the wizard I will assume he uses TWO attacks for this instance even though the wizard is no doubt not strong. Having two remaining attacks they both target the wizard but with rapid strike it instead becomes three attacks (2 at triple the other at no adv.). Action Surge; Action: Attack x 4, the first three target the wizard. The last remaining attack is used for seppuku. Reaction Strength Before Death Extra Turn.
Turn Two: Strength before Death
Action: Attack x 4, target the wizard along with one rapid strike. Action Surge; Action: Attack x 4, target the wizard. Bonus Action can be used for second wind or something else.
All Attacks Made: 2 Shoves, 2 Rapid Strikes, 13 triple advantage attacks, 1 Seppuku. Since
Each Attack is at 1d12 (6.5) + 5 + 10 [+1d6 (3.5) if have Hex] damage, averaging 21.5 damage without hex and 25 damage with Hex. With 13 triple attacks and two rapid strikes accounting for only damage it come out to either 332.5 (No Hex) or 375 (With Hex). And mind this is even without Piercer or Crits playing into account (just saying from merely the attacks alone you roll a total of 41 dice so if the odds of a natural 20 are well 1 in 20 you have great odds for getting 2 crits). And if you add the 2 crits to the mix the numbers change to 335.5 and 395 respectively.
Also mind to make my life easier I’mma just say that both the rapid strikes are the crits as it makes doing the chance to hit/average damage thingy way more annoying.
Chamce to Hit:
If He Choose The Hex Path: From “Turn One:” AC of the wizard can range from 18, 20, and 23, 25.
Against AC 18: 0.875 x 395 = 345.625 aver. dmg
Against AC 20: 0.784 x 395 = 309.68 aver. dmg
Against AC 23: 0.578125 x 395 = 228.359375 aver. dmg
Against AC 25: 0.385875 x 395 = 152.42 aver. dmg
If He Choose The Counterspell Path: From “Turn One:” AC of the wizard can range from 18, and 20 as he used Counterspell and therefore can’t cast the shield spell.
Against AC 18: 0.875 x 335.5 = 293.5625 aver. dmg
Against AC 20: 0.784 x 335.5 = 263.032 aver. dmg
I’m no math genius but here are some numbers hastily and tiredly done for this. But since I am to tired to polish this post I’ll post it now.
How it plays out: The wizard knows that s/he is squishy, a kind of glass cannon so to speak and joins a party of adventurers or gathers minions. They'd cast warding spells. They might even work out contingencies.
Sure, there are a variety of character builds that might cope in a 1 on 1 combat with a wizard, but such a 1 on 1, without complications, is unlikely to happen.
Since I’m bored I decided to do the Seppuku Sniper Samurai Nova build that I made awhile back since some changes have occurred and I don’t remember finalizing the build. And remember for the case of ease as for the shove prone tactic I will assume success on the first try. Sorry if I messed it up I’m tired and I did this on a whim though do tell if I messed something up.
Class: Fighter, Level 20, Subclass: Samurai
Fighting Style: Archery (+2 to hit for ranged weapons)
Background: Knight, RETAINERS
Proficiencies: Some of the Mains ones are Arcana, Perception, Acrobatics, Athletics, and I guess Stealth since why not.
Race: Half-elf (Tasha’s to change scores) or Custom Lineage if you deem that making you an elf makes you able to acquire Elven Accuracy and another feat.
Ability Score Increases/Feats: Alert (+5 to initiative), Elven Accuracy (+1 to Dex, Triple Adv.), Piercer (+1 to Dex), Gunner (+1 to Dex, Firearm Prof.), Fey Touched (+1 to Cha, Hex, Misty Step), Sharpshooter (-5 to hit, +10 dmg), Lucky (3 Rerolls).
Final Ability Scores: 16, 20, 9, 12, 8, 14
Equipment: Starting Equipment you take a musket for your starting martial weapon and spend all of your gold and coins for ammo and either than that I don’t really know what else you could do either than try to buy some potions/poison/item that you could drop during your turn as you don’t really need much else.
The Plan: Win initiative. Walk up to the wizard cast Hex (Disadv. Dexterity Checks) making him choose either to Counterspell it or save his reaction for casting Shield. Then you proceed to knock the wizard prone by replacing one of your first attacks with shove. After he is shoved due to Sharpshooter and Gunner when you are within 5ft you aren’t at disadvantage or anything In fact you are at triple advantage (Elven Accuracy) at +7 to hit (you use sharpshooter for the -5 to hit, +10 to dmg). Then after firing the first volley you commit suicide/seppuku using your last attack to activate Strength before Death for another turn and continue your volley on the still prone foe. If you kill the wizard early you can (if you can) use second wind or heal to make sure you don’t start bleeding out and die.
How it Plays Out:
The fighter wins Initiative as he has a +10 and Lucky (It unlikely but for the sake of the build I assume we go first as otherwise it would be quite boring). At the start of the match the fighter was holding the Arcane Focus/Material Components for Hex.
Turn One:
Movement walk towards the wizard. Bonus action cast Hex (Disadv. Dexterity Checks) waiting for the wizard to counterspell it or not counting on the shield spell. At this point we have deviation of paths I will showcase both outcomes at the end. Action: Attack x 4, First attack is a shove at +9 against a wizard (+Lucky) we assume a win but since for extra safety to make sure the samurai absolutely shoves the wizard I will assume he uses TWO attacks for this instance even though the wizard is no doubt not strong. Having two remaining attacks they both target the wizard but with rapid strike it instead becomes three attacks (2 at triple the other at no adv.). Action Surge; Action: Attack x 4, the first three target the wizard. The last remaining attack is used for seppuku. Reaction Strength Before Death Extra Turn.
Turn Two: Strength before Death
Action: Attack x 4, target the wizard along with one rapid strike. Action Surge; Action: Attack x 4, target the wizard. Bonus Action can be used for second wind or something else.
All Attacks Made: 2 Shoves, 2 Rapid Strikes, 13 triple advantage attacks, 1 Seppuku. Since
Each Attack is at 1d12 (6.5) + 5 + 10 [+1d6 (3.5) if have Hex] damage, averaging 21.5 damage without hex and 25 damage with Hex. With 13 triple attacks and two rapid strikes accounting for only damage it come out to either 332.5 (No Hex) or 375 (With Hex). And mind this is even without Piercer or Crits playing into account (just saying from merely the attacks alone you roll a total of 41 dice so if the odds of a natural 20 are well 1 in 20 you have great odds for getting 2 crits). And if you add the 2 crits to the mix the numbers change to 335.5 and 395 respectively.
Also mind to make my life easier I’mma just say that both the rapid strikes are the crits as it makes doing the chance to hit/average damage thingy way more annoying.
Chamce to Hit:
If He Choose The Hex Path: From “Turn One:” AC of the wizard can range from 18, 20, and 23, 25.
Against AC 18: 0.875 x 395 = 345.625 aver. dmg
Against AC 20: 0.784 x 395 = 309.68 aver. dmg
Against AC 23: 0.578125 x 395 = 228.359375 aver. dmg
Against AC 25: 0.385875 x 395 = 152.42 aver. dmg
If He Choose The Counterspell Path: From “Turn One:” AC of the wizard can range from 18, and 20 as he used Counterspell and therefore can’t cast the shield spell.
Against AC 18: 0.875 x 335.5 = 293.5625 aver. dmg
Against AC 20: 0.784 x 335.5 = 263.032 aver. dmg
I’m no math genius but here are some numbers hastily and tiredly done for this. But since I am to tired to polish this post I’ll post it now.
hahahahaha… ha.. ha man I was way to tired to no wonder the damage looks way lower than I thought It would have been. The reason for the MUCH lower damage than I though was because I messed up basic addition and subtraction for the to hit on the build as I my calculations I use +7 to hit with triple advantage when in fact it is (5 + 6 + 2 - 5 = ) +8 to hit so yeah that changes a lot. I guess being tried does mess you up!
Well imma redo this real quick!:
Chance to Hit:
If He Choose The Hex Path: From “Turn One:” AC of the wizard can range from 18, 20, and 23, 25.
Against AC 18: 0.908875 x 395 = 359.005625 aver. dmg
Against AC 20: 0.833625 x 395 = 329.281875 aver. dmg
Against AC 23: 0.657 x 395 = 259.515 aver. dmg
Against AC 25: 0.488 x 395 = 192.76 aver. dmg
If He Choose The Counterspell Path: From “Turn One:” AC of the wizard can range from 18, and 20 as he used Counterspell and therefore can’t cast the shield spell.
Against AC 18: 0.908875 x 335.5 = 304.9275625 aver. dmg
Against AC 20: 0.833625 x 335.5 = 279.6811875 aver. dmg
Once again i’m no math genius but these are some numbers and keep in mind these number would actually be higher since I have stuff like Piercer and such also if we say that Custom Lineage making your self an elf gives you access to Elven Accuracy. Also just saying as a Knight you have a squire (stats of noble) and two servants (state of commoners) under your command additionally say if you choose the Hermit background you could perhaps have your Discovery become “The ways of the Elves & Archery” or something as such so you can gain access to Elven Accuracy on another race like say Vumen or Custom Lineage. The possibilities are endless especially if you become Custom Lineage since like the Vumen you get an additional feat as such you could get even more power!!!! And that is just the tip of the iceberg!
PS: Remember I sacrificed an attack for the second shove for “Insurance” that the wizard would be prone so if you instead act as if the first shove did the trick (as it most likely would) that gives you even more damage as you free up an attack!
So what I’m saying is that this build still has room to grow to deal even more damage. Maybe I’ll do this again but instead as a Custom Lineage for the extra feat and such.
Okay joking aside, even if you did do that you would probably still die. Even with halving Samurai DPR, you would be sacrificing armor from Hobgoblin & your reaction for Shield/Counterspell, so you would still probably die but at least you'd do so with a laugh.
Also another funny thought, imagine if the samurai just misses their seppuku. They wouldn't have triple advantage attacking themselves lol.
Okay joking aside, even if you did do that you would probably still die. Even with halving Samurai DPR, you would be sacrificing armor from Hobgoblin & your reaction for Shield/Counterspell, so you would still probably die but at least you'd do so with a laugh.
Also another funny thought, imagine if the samurai just misses their seppuku. They wouldn't have triple advantage attacking themselves lol.
That is pretty hilarious! Imagine setting up this amazing combo and the tiefling is like "CCCCCCOMBO BREAKER!"
Honestly. This entire thing is so situational. If the fighter gets in range and hits first with specific builds he wins. If the wizard hits first he wins.
but I feel the wizard has more ways to deal with situations. Even if he did get novad. Wizards may have clone. They may have contingency. They may have a whole bunch a stuff to escape the situation. This is one of those situations where having a fairly old class run into a class that can work well off the cuff, but whose strengths can really come from preparations, just isn’t conclusive. If we assume ANY level of preparedness, the wizard wins. It just has too many get out of jail free cards.
If we assume everyone starts within 30ft, no preparations, then the fighter probably wins if they win initiative. They absolutely can one shot most wizards even without optimisation. But honestly I think in most situations the wizard just has more ways to do things
but I feel the wizard has more ways to deal with situations. Even if he did get novad. Wizards may have clone. They may have contingency. They may have a whole bunch a stuff to escape the situation. This is one of those situations where having a fairly old class run into a class that can work well off the cuff, but whose strengths can really come from preparations, just isn’t conclusive. If we assume ANY level of preparedness, the wizard wins. It just has too many get out of jail free cards.
Part of the problem is where you set the limit for preparation; if the wizard is allowed to prepare a Clone, set a Contingency etc., is the Fighter allowed to go pop into a dungeon known to contain a Ring of Spell Turning? Or just spend a bunch of gold they've saved by not being a caster and dump it on getting themselves covered in Spellwrought Tattoos with Counterspell?
To do it fairly there needs to be some kind of cutoff, and some compensation to the Fighter for gold they haven't had to spend learning spells, and on spell components etc.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
but I feel the wizard has more ways to deal with situations. Even if he did get novad. Wizards may have clone. They may have contingency. They may have a whole bunch a stuff to escape the situation. This is one of those situations where having a fairly old class run into a class that can work well off the cuff, but whose strengths can really come from preparations, just isn’t conclusive. If we assume ANY level of preparedness, the wizard wins. It just has too many get out of jail free cards.
Part of the problem is where you set the limit for preparation; if the wizard is allowed to prepare a Clone, set a Contingency etc., is the Fighter allowed to go pop into a dungeon known to contain a [Tooltip Not Found]? Or just spend a bunch of gold they've saved by not being a caster and dump it on getting themselves covered in Spellwrought Tattoos with Counterspell?
To do it fairly there needs to be some kind of cutoff, and some compensation to the Fighter for gold they haven't had to spend learning spells, and on spell components etc.
If we are truly testing the level 20s of each class, they should have no prep and only class abilities imo. You get feats, since that is a part of your class, but no magic items and such. I also think they should start out at a reasonable distance from each other 10 ft or so and no cover. If you are starting out at a longer range, then melee need not apply. Only archers and wizards would be effective at longer ranges. So 10 ft and nothing but your class abilities and non-magic weapons.
but I feel the wizard has more ways to deal with situations. Even if he did get novad. Wizards may have clone. They may have contingency. They may have a whole bunch a stuff to escape the situation. This is one of those situations where having a fairly old class run into a class that can work well off the cuff, but whose strengths can really come from preparations, just isn’t conclusive. If we assume ANY level of preparedness, the wizard wins. It just has too many get out of jail free cards.
Part of the problem is where you set the limit for preparation; if the wizard is allowed to prepare a Clone, set a Contingency etc., is the Fighter allowed to go pop into a dungeon known to contain a [Tooltip Not Found]? Or just spend a bunch of gold they've saved by not being a caster and dump it on getting themselves covered in Spellwrought Tattoos with Counterspell?
To do it fairly there needs to be some kind of cutoff, and some compensation to the Fighter for gold they haven't had to spend learning spells, and on spell components etc.
If we are truly testing the level 20s of each class, they should have no prep and only class abilities imo. You get feats, since that is a part of your class, but no magic items and such. I also think they should start out at a reasonable distance from each other 10 ft or so and no cover. If you are starting out at a longer range, then melee need not apply. Only archers and wizards would be effective at longer ranges. So 10 ft and nothing but your class abilities and non-magic weapons.
I see your point but I reckon dnd has ment to balance level 20 characters with magic items. I mean like a 20 wizard is so much better than a 20 fighter but thats without magic items. I think it would be unfair on the fighter to have no magic items.
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When you thought you knew about spellcasting - you played a warlock
Why are most bard colleges a pain to type? I mean bard college of valor, compare to champion or evoker. Same goes for sacred oaths: paladin oath of devotion. That's even worse.
I don't think WoCE were very creative with the rogue and ranger subclass titles. I mean ranger archeotype? Roguish archeotype? Bro! Fighters are better but still is somewhat unsatisfying compare to a monastatic tradition or sacred oath.
There is no way way to do this fight. If you do ANYTHING it heavily skews things in one favour or the other. Start within 30 ft? Fighter wins. start 200 ft away, wizard wins. Prep allowed, wizard wins. If fighter gets very specific items, fighter wins. You can't do this fairly.
but I feel the wizard has more ways to deal with situations. Even if he did get novad. Wizards may have clone. They may have contingency. They may have a whole bunch a stuff to escape the situation. This is one of those situations where having a fairly old class run into a class that can work well off the cuff, but whose strengths can really come from preparations, just isn’t conclusive. If we assume ANY level of preparedness, the wizard wins. It just has too many get out of jail free cards.
Part of the problem is where you set the limit for preparation; if the wizard is allowed to prepare a Clone, set a Contingency etc., is the Fighter allowed to go pop into a dungeon known to contain a [Tooltip Not Found]? Or just spend a bunch of gold they've saved by not being a caster and dump it on getting themselves covered in Spellwrought Tattoos with Counterspell?
To do it fairly there needs to be some kind of cutoff, and some compensation to the Fighter for gold they haven't had to spend learning spells, and on spell components etc.
If we are truly testing the level 20s of each class, they should have no prep and only class abilities imo. You get feats, since that is a part of your class, but no magic items and such. I also think they should start out at a reasonable distance from each other 10 ft or so and no cover. If you are starting out at a longer range, then melee need not apply. Only archers and wizards would be effective at longer ranges. So 10 ft and nothing but your class abilities and non-magic weapons.
I see your point but I reckon dnd has ment to balance level 20 characters with magic items. I mean like a 20 wizard is so much better than a 20 fighter but thats without magic items. I think it would be unfair on the fighter to have no magic items.
I agree, but if we are truly testing the class, as is, there is no good other way to balance it imo. Is it balanced if we give fighters magic items, but not the wizards?
And I still think it comes down to who wins initiative, for the most part! lol :)
I agree, but if we are truly testing the class, as is, there is no good other way to balance it imo. Is it balanced if we give fighters magic items, but not the wizards?
And I still think it comes down to who wins initiative, for the most part! lol :)
It's not about denying the Wizard anything, but the Wizard has built in costs that the Fighter does not, so you have to somehow work out how much extra that's worth to the Fighter, i.e- how many more magic items could they purchase or (since purchasing items is DM dependent), what other services might they purchase with the extra money? If the Fighter's looking at any extra 1000 gp then it might not just be a fighter the Wizard has to contend with 😉
This is part of the problem though, D&D is way too freeform, and wherever you set the line it disadvantages one or the other.
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Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Over the past while I have seen people bring up magic items, talk the classes being unbalanced and such I get that yes those things exist but I wanna say this can the Wizard Kill and I mean kill not banish nor anything g but kill an adult red dragon in one turn… since my Seppuku Sniper Samurai can and even given an extra turn can possibly even kill an ancient red dragon in two turns. So stop saying this and that is weak or strong and just acknowledge that they have they certain strengths and short comings like the fighter doesn’t have easy access to magic but can like I said practically one shot adult to ancient red dragons every day while the wizard can is generally lacking in the physical department but can become a permanent spellcasting shadow ancient gold dragon capable of high level casting, innate casting, immortality and possible apotheosis into demi-dragon-godhood. So you see what I’m trying to say is that the fighter can one-shot dragons and the wizard is a semi almost omnipotent being capable of mass destruction…
But yeah besides my sarcasm and the such most of which what I said wasn’t in jest but in fact quite true as the Samurai can kill dragons while the wizard become them (but waaayy stronger).
but I feel the wizard has more ways to deal with situations. Even if he did get novad. Wizards may have clone. They may have contingency. They may have a whole bunch a stuff to escape the situation. This is one of those situations where having a fairly old class run into a class that can work well off the cuff, but whose strengths can really come from preparations, just isn’t conclusive. If we assume ANY level of preparedness, the wizard wins. It just has too many get out of jail free cards.
Part of the problem is where you set the limit for preparation; if the wizard is allowed to prepare a Clone, set a Contingency etc., is the Fighter allowed to go pop into a dungeon known to contain a Ring of Spell Turning? Or just spend a bunch of gold they've saved by not being a caster and dump it on getting themselves covered in Spellwrought Tattoos with Counterspell?
To do it fairly there needs to be some kind of cutoff, and some compensation to the Fighter for gold they haven't had to spend learning spells, and on spell components etc.
well most of that time preparing a Clone or Contingency is gonna be spent waiting, since clone is only an hour (or 1 action if cast from wish for free at no consequences) to cast, and contingency takes 10 minutes, and there is not really much advantage the fighter can gain from this kinda long, kinda short timespan that is a significant advantage compared to what the wizard could spend the rest of their day also doing, like after the wizard is done casting clone he could easily spend the rest of the day engaging in the same kind of magic-item hunting that the fighter is engaging in.
What we really need to recognize is that there are other game systems that better nail the supposed power dynamic between fighters and wizards, such as Dungeon World and Dungeon Crawl Classics (the latter being the more extreme form of these principles, magic therein being both something extremely powerful and extremely dangerous/ unpredictable while fighters are essentially engines of death and destruction)
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
And after 33+ pages of this we come down to the fact that (as WOtC intended) it’s a draw - the classes are sufficiently balanced that it’s completely situational and even if you took the same to combatants in repeated trials with different situations sometimes one would win and sometimes the other splitting the situations roughly 50-50. Have fun with the next 34 pages.
And after 33+ pages of this we come down to the fact that (as WOtC intended) it’s a draw - the classes are sufficiently balanced that it’s completely situational and even if you took the same to combatants in repeated trials with different situations sometimes one would win and sometimes the other splitting the situations roughly 50-50. Have fun with the next 34 pages.
It's really not 50-50 at all if you actually read the pages....
I don’t know why people keep on thinking it is a 50/50 it’s really not it more like 65/35 wizards favour or like OptimusGrimus said it being 70/30 with wizards favour.
Although what if the fighter as I said used the Hermit background and have the Discovery be something like Elven Ranged Battlefield Tactics choosing Custom Lineage for some unique elf race and gain Elven Accuracy via the affinity for it (Elf Blood) and the research (Discovery). Since doing so would mean you would get an extra feat without the need to sacrifice anything from the build besides perhaps some secondary stats but who cares all you need is Dexterity really and some other mediocre stats for scars and such.
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When I think about it and while have said this build many times before but how would the fighter fare against a War Caster, Polearm Master wizard that casts a spell as soon as they enter the wizard’s reach.
Since most builds require the needed melee range half the time and all it is just those two feats and you have a very powerful combination of abilities then if you add the spell maze, Forcecage or whatever you enter a realm where the fighter loses before he even fights!
Since I’m bored I decided to do the Seppuku Sniper Samurai Nova build that I made awhile back since some changes have occurred and I don’t remember finalizing the build. And remember for the case of ease as for the shove prone tactic I will assume success on the first try. Sorry if I messed it up I’m tired and I did this on a whim though do tell if I messed something up.
Class: Fighter, Level 20, Subclass: Samurai
Fighting Style: Archery (+2 to hit for ranged weapons)
Background: Knight, RETAINERS
Proficiencies: Some of the Mains ones are Arcana, Perception, Acrobatics, Athletics, and I guess Stealth since why not.
Race: Half-elf (Tasha’s to change scores) or Custom Lineage if you deem that making you an elf makes you able to acquire Elven Accuracy and another feat.
Base Ability Scores (Point Buy): 15, 15, 9, 11, 8, 13
Ability Scores with Racial Bonus: 16, 17, 9, 12, 8, 13
Ability Score Increases/Feats: Alert (+5 to initiative), Elven Accuracy (+1 to Dex, Triple Adv.), Piercer (+1 to Dex), Gunner (+1 to Dex, Firearm Prof.), Fey Touched (+1 to Cha, Hex, Misty Step), Sharpshooter (-5 to hit, +10 dmg), Lucky (3 Rerolls).
Final Ability Scores: 16, 20, 9, 12, 8, 14
Equipment: Starting Equipment you take a musket for your starting martial weapon and spend all of your gold and coins for ammo and either than that I don’t really know what else you could do either than try to buy some potions/poison/item that you could drop during your turn as you don’t really need much else.
The Plan: Win initiative. Walk up to the wizard cast Hex (Disadv. Dexterity Checks) making him choose either to Counterspell it or save his reaction for casting Shield. Then you proceed to knock the wizard prone by replacing one of your first attacks with shove. After he is shoved due to Sharpshooter and Gunner when you are within 5ft you aren’t at disadvantage or anything In fact you are at triple advantage (Elven Accuracy) at +7 to hit (you use sharpshooter for the -5 to hit, +10 to dmg). Then after firing the first volley you commit suicide/seppuku using your last attack to activate Strength before Death for another turn and continue your volley on the still prone foe. If you kill the wizard early you can (if you can) use second wind or heal to make sure you don’t start bleeding out and die.
How it Plays Out:
The fighter wins Initiative as he has a +10 and Lucky (It unlikely but for the sake of the build I assume we go first as otherwise it would be quite boring). At the start of the match the fighter was holding the Arcane Focus/Material Components for Hex.
Turn One:
Movement walk towards the wizard. Bonus action cast Hex (Disadv. Dexterity Checks) waiting for the wizard to counterspell it or not counting on the shield spell. At this point we have deviation of paths I will showcase both outcomes at the end. Action: Attack x 4, First attack is a shove at +9 against a wizard (+Lucky) we assume a win but since for extra safety to make sure the samurai absolutely shoves the wizard I will assume he uses TWO attacks for this instance even though the wizard is no doubt not strong. Having two remaining attacks they both target the wizard but with rapid strike it instead becomes three attacks (2 at triple the other at no adv.). Action Surge; Action: Attack x 4, the first three target the wizard. The last remaining attack is used for seppuku. Reaction Strength Before Death Extra Turn.
Turn Two: Strength before Death
Action: Attack x 4, target the wizard along with one rapid strike. Action Surge; Action: Attack x 4, target the wizard. Bonus Action can be used for second wind or something else.
All Attacks Made: 2 Shoves, 2 Rapid Strikes, 13 triple advantage attacks, 1 Seppuku. Since
Each Attack is at 1d12 (6.5) + 5 + 10 [+1d6 (3.5) if have Hex] damage, averaging 21.5 damage without hex and 25 damage with Hex. With 13 triple attacks and two rapid strikes accounting for only damage it come out to either 332.5 (No Hex) or 375 (With Hex). And mind this is even without Piercer or Crits playing into account (just saying from merely the attacks alone you roll a total of 41 dice so if the odds of a natural 20 are well 1 in 20 you have great odds for getting 2 crits). And if you add the 2 crits to the mix the numbers change to 335.5 and 395 respectively.
Also mind to make my life easier I’mma just say that both the rapid strikes are the crits as it makes doing the chance to hit/average damage thingy way more annoying.
Chamce to Hit:
If He Choose The Hex Path: From “Turn One:”
AC of the wizard can range from 18, 20, and 23, 25.
Against AC 18: 0.875 x 395 = 345.625 aver. dmg
Against AC 20: 0.784 x 395 = 309.68 aver. dmg
Against AC 23: 0.578125 x 395 = 228.359375 aver. dmg
Against AC 25: 0.385875 x 395 = 152.42 aver. dmg
If He Choose The Counterspell Path: From “Turn One:”
AC of the wizard can range from 18, and 20 as he used Counterspell and therefore can’t cast the shield spell.
Against AC 18: 0.875 x 335.5 = 293.5625 aver. dmg
Against AC 20: 0.784 x 335.5 = 263.0320 aver. dmg
I’m no math genius but here are some numbers hastily and tiredly done for this. But since I am to tired to polish this post I’ll post it now.
How it plays out:
The wizard knows that s/he is squishy, a kind of glass cannon so to speak and joins a party of adventurers or gathers minions. They'd cast warding spells. They might even work out contingencies.
Sure, there are a variety of character builds that might cope in a 1 on 1 combat with a wizard, but such a 1 on 1, without complications, is unlikely to happen.
hahahahaha… ha.. ha man I was way to tired to no wonder the damage looks way lower than I thought It would have been. The reason for the MUCH lower damage than I though was because I messed up basic addition and subtraction for the to hit on the build as I my calculations I use +7 to hit with triple advantage when in fact it is (5 + 6 + 2 - 5 = ) +8 to hit so yeah that changes a lot. I guess being tried does mess you up!
Well imma redo this real quick!:
Chance to Hit:
If He Choose The Hex Path: From “Turn One:”
AC of the wizard can range from 18, 20, and 23, 25.
Against AC 18: 0.908875 x 395 = 359.005625 aver. dmg
Against AC 20: 0.833625 x 395 = 329.281875 aver. dmg
Against AC 23: 0.657 x 395 = 259.515 aver. dmg
Against AC 25: 0.488 x 395 = 192.76 aver. dmg
If He Choose The Counterspell Path: From “Turn One:”
AC of the wizard can range from 18, and 20 as he used Counterspell and therefore can’t cast the shield spell.
Against AC 18: 0.908875 x 335.5 = 304.9275625 aver. dmg
Against AC 20: 0.833625 x 335.5 = 279.6811875 aver. dmg
Once again i’m no math genius but these are some numbers and keep in mind these number would actually be higher since I have stuff like Piercer and such also if we say that Custom Lineage making your self an elf gives you access to Elven Accuracy. Also just saying as a Knight you have a squire (stats of noble) and two servants (state of commoners) under your command additionally say if you choose the Hermit background you could perhaps have your Discovery become “The ways of the Elves & Archery” or something as such so you can gain access to Elven Accuracy on another race like say Vumen or Custom Lineage. The possibilities are endless especially if you become Custom Lineage since like the Vumen you get an additional feat as such you could get even more power!!!! And that is just the tip of the iceberg!
PS: Remember I sacrificed an attack for the second shove for “Insurance” that the wizard would be prone so if you instead act as if the first shove did the trick (as it most likely would) that gives you even more damage as you free up an attack!
So what I’m saying is that this build still has room to grow to deal even more damage. Maybe I’ll do this again but instead as a Custom Lineage for the extra feat and such.
perfect counter strat
be a tiefling, hellish rebuke the 1 hp samurai
avg 8.25 damage on a successive save lol
Okay joking aside, even if you did do that you would probably still die. Even with halving Samurai DPR, you would be sacrificing armor from Hobgoblin & your reaction for Shield/Counterspell, so you would still probably die but at least you'd do so with a laugh.
Also another funny thought, imagine if the samurai just misses their seppuku. They wouldn't have triple advantage attacking themselves lol.
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
That is pretty hilarious! Imagine setting up this amazing combo and the tiefling is like "CCCCCCOMBO BREAKER!"
Honestly. This entire thing is so situational. If the fighter gets in range and hits first with specific builds he wins. If the wizard hits first he wins.
but I feel the wizard has more ways to deal with situations. Even if he did get novad. Wizards may have clone. They may have contingency. They may have a whole bunch a stuff to escape the situation. This is one of those situations where having a fairly old class run into a class that can work well off the cuff, but whose strengths can really come from preparations, just isn’t conclusive. If we assume ANY level of preparedness, the wizard wins. It just has too many get out of jail free cards.
If we assume everyone starts within 30ft, no preparations, then the fighter probably wins if they win initiative. They absolutely can one shot most wizards even without optimisation. But honestly I think in most situations the wizard just has more ways to do things
Perhaps the fighter is just frustrated with the wizard being a more viable character with a greater earning potential etc.
Get over it friend, or it might be the death of you.
Part of the problem is where you set the limit for preparation; if the wizard is allowed to prepare a Clone, set a Contingency etc., is the Fighter allowed to go pop into a dungeon known to contain a Ring of Spell Turning? Or just spend a bunch of gold they've saved by not being a caster and dump it on getting themselves covered in Spellwrought Tattoos with Counterspell?
To do it fairly there needs to be some kind of cutoff, and some compensation to the Fighter for gold they haven't had to spend learning spells, and on spell components etc.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
If we are truly testing the level 20s of each class, they should have no prep and only class abilities imo. You get feats, since that is a part of your class, but no magic items and such. I also think they should start out at a reasonable distance from each other 10 ft or so and no cover. If you are starting out at a longer range, then melee need not apply. Only archers and wizards would be effective at longer ranges. So 10 ft and nothing but your class abilities and non-magic weapons.
I see your point but I reckon dnd has ment to balance level 20 characters with magic items. I mean like a 20 wizard is so much better than a 20 fighter but thats without magic items. I think it would be unfair on the fighter to have no magic items.
When you thought you knew about spellcasting - you played a warlock
Why are most bard colleges a pain to type? I mean bard college of valor, compare to champion or evoker. Same goes for sacred oaths: paladin oath of devotion. That's even worse.
I don't think WoCE were very creative with the rogue and ranger subclass titles. I mean ranger archeotype? Roguish archeotype? Bro! Fighters are better but still is somewhat unsatisfying compare to a monastatic tradition or sacred oath.
There is no way way to do this fight. If you do ANYTHING it heavily skews things in one favour or the other. Start within 30 ft? Fighter wins. start 200 ft away, wizard wins. Prep allowed, wizard wins. If fighter gets very specific items, fighter wins. You can't do this fairly.
I agree, but if we are truly testing the class, as is, there is no good other way to balance it imo. Is it balanced if we give fighters magic items, but not the wizards?
And I still think it comes down to who wins initiative, for the most part! lol :)
It's not about denying the Wizard anything, but the Wizard has built in costs that the Fighter does not, so you have to somehow work out how much extra that's worth to the Fighter, i.e- how many more magic items could they purchase or (since purchasing items is DM dependent), what other services might they purchase with the extra money? If the Fighter's looking at any extra 1000 gp then it might not just be a fighter the Wizard has to contend with 😉
This is part of the problem though, D&D is way too freeform, and wherever you set the line it disadvantages one or the other.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Over the past while I have seen people bring up magic items, talk the classes being unbalanced and such I get that yes those things exist but I wanna say this can the Wizard Kill and I mean kill not banish nor anything g but kill an adult red dragon in one turn… since my Seppuku Sniper Samurai can and even given an extra turn can possibly even kill an ancient red dragon in two turns. So stop saying this and that is weak or strong and just acknowledge that they have they certain strengths and short comings like the fighter doesn’t have easy access to magic but can like I said practically one shot adult to ancient red dragons every day while the wizard can is generally lacking in the physical department but can become a permanent spellcasting shadow ancient gold dragon capable of high level casting, innate casting, immortality and possible apotheosis into demi-dragon-godhood. So you see what I’m trying to say is that the fighter can one-shot dragons and the wizard is a semi almost omnipotent being capable of mass destruction…
But yeah besides my sarcasm and the such most of which what I said wasn’t in jest but in fact quite true as the Samurai can kill dragons while the wizard become them (but waaayy stronger).
Why not just assume they take turns simultaneously and the DM has to arbitrate how the event plays out?
At some point it just becomes a "I beat you!" vs "Nuh uh!" situation.
becuase initiative is sorta important in the game already and doing so could adversely affect one side or the other,
well most of that time preparing a Clone or Contingency is gonna be spent waiting, since clone is only an hour (or 1 action if cast from wish for free at no consequences) to cast, and contingency takes 10 minutes, and there is not really much advantage the fighter can gain from this kinda long, kinda short timespan that is a significant advantage compared to what the wizard could spend the rest of their day also doing, like after the wizard is done casting clone he could easily spend the rest of the day engaging in the same kind of magic-item hunting that the fighter is engaging in.
What we really need to recognize is that there are other game systems that better nail the supposed power dynamic between fighters and wizards, such as Dungeon World and Dungeon Crawl Classics (the latter being the more extreme form of these principles, magic therein being both something extremely powerful and extremely dangerous/ unpredictable while fighters are essentially engines of death and destruction)
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
And after 33+ pages of this we come down to the fact that (as WOtC intended) it’s a draw - the classes are sufficiently balanced that it’s completely situational and even if you took the same to combatants in repeated trials with different situations sometimes one would win and sometimes the other splitting the situations roughly 50-50. Have fun with the next 34 pages.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
It's really not 50-50 at all if you actually read the pages....
Wizard about 70% of the time
I don’t know why people keep on thinking it is a 50/50 it’s really not it more like 65/35 wizards favour or like OptimusGrimus said it being 70/30 with wizards favour.
Although what if the fighter as I said used the Hermit background and have the Discovery be something like Elven Ranged Battlefield Tactics choosing Custom Lineage for some unique elf race and gain Elven Accuracy via the affinity for it (Elf Blood) and the research (Discovery). Since doing so would mean you would get an extra feat without the need to sacrifice anything from the build besides perhaps some secondary stats but who cares all you need is Dexterity really and some other mediocre stats for scars and such.