The War Magician has the same initiative, and the Diviner has portent. Both can turn into an Ancient Brass Dragon after making it very difficult for the fighter to go first.
Or Force Cage followed by Counterspell on your one attempt to Misty Step out.
I will admit Banishing Arrows are much better than I had originally understood.
Yeah the main thing is the banishing arrow can be done as part of ANY attack which does make it more and more powerful the more attacks you get.
Overall the main issue is damage in/out with most of the fighter subclasses. They do great damage per round which is awesome as part of a party but PvP is all about the knock out blow you can get and MOST fighters just do not have it.
Now if we started talking fighter vs. wizard at different levels it does get more interesting. A 5th level fighter will likely beat up a wizard most of the time simply due to the lack of these knock out spells that wizards get at later levels and the very low HP and likely AC of the wizard early on.
Banishing Arrow is very strong, but the Arcane Archer does not get access to counterspell or dispel magic and has nothing innate to boost their initiative. Fey Touched for Misty Step doesn't actually solve the force cage problem because of the Wizard's counterspell. So anytime the Wizard goes first (likely) or gets a single turn (also fairly likely) the match is over.
As for mentioning the tough feat when talking about builds, it was not changing anything. The Arcane Archer was given access to Fey Touched and then it was mentioned that other wizard builds/feats had not been considered. I simply mentioned that Tough (a feat that is not out of the question for a wizard to have naturally) would make all of the damage calculations moot. I think that's relevant.
And of course. The fighter will have a better chance the more and more you reduce the level of the two classes. Wizards don't have a linear power curve.
Banishing Arrow is very strong, but the Arcane Archer does not get access to counterspell or dispel magic and has nothing innate to boost their initiative. Fey Touched for Misty Step doesn't actually solve the force cage problem because of the Wizard's counterspell. So anytime the Wizard goes first (likely) or gets a single turn (also fairly likely) the match is over.
As for mentioning the tough feat when talking about builds, it was not changing anything. The Arcane Archer was given access to Fey Touched and then it was mentioned that other wizard builds/feats had not been considered. I simply mentioned that Tough (a feat that is not out of the question for a wizard to have naturally) would make all of the damage calculations moot. I think that's relevant.
And of course. The fighter will have a better chance the more and more you reduce the level of the two classes. Wizards don't have a linear power curve.
The fighter is immune to the wizard's Counterspell while inside of the Forcecage (box form). He can still Misty Step out as long as if he passes his save.
If the wizard uses cage form with gaps between the bars to allow for counterspell, the fighter can just shoot through the gaps and has no cover penalty thanks to Sharpshooter.
Initiative boosts are definitely in the wizard's favor. The only counterpoint is that Fighters have more feat flexibility for easier access to Alert, but wizards still can squeeze the feat in if they really need to. That, and I've already used a good chunk of feat budget already on this particular fighter build.
*smacks forehead* I keep missing key parts of game features. I'm sorry about that.
Remember the wizard trying to pass that charisma save? Yeah the fighter isn't any better and this is a DC19. And if this is a Diviner with portent (why wouldn't it be?). You need three d20's to all come up 19 or higher. There is a .1% chance of that happening.
I'd say the fighter is stuck in that forcecage. At which point the wizard can cast mirror image, contingency, tiny servant and any other number of spells in the space of an hour so that they can straight up murder the fighter once force cage pops.
But let's say both of the Diviner's portents are 19 or higher (1% chance) and they don't want to risk the fighter hitting that save to escape forcecage. Enter wall of force. The wording on the spell lets you be pretty darn creative with the shape. Create a triangular box, stacking the walls three high (30 feet), using 9 of the 10 walls. Keep the top open. Let's see the fighter get out of that while the wizard pelts him with AoE effects and stifles any attempts to misty step with counterspell. Oh and since both of the Portent rolls in this scenario are 19 or 20, the Diviner has a very high chance of going first.
This version uses 18 int, so I'm back to the 90% banish rate. If I need Drow High Magic I drop to 16 int, which starts to add a bit of risk for making the save. There's room to move Con points around into Wisdom and Charisma but I don't know how comfortable I am with that. Needing the option to tackle the Dragon opening makes me realize how squeezed I am getting for feats and that I don't have much room for Alert, which means my chances are definitely dropping some. Stupid dragons getting to keep their legendary resistances *grumble grumble*.
I am thinking that I may have to commit to combating subset of openings rather than hoping to cover them all. I assume that the wizard doesn't get to know exactly which feats I grab when he takes his turn, so he'll have to do some guessing on his end too.
For Wall of Force, though, it does provide total cover, which prevents the fighter from being targeted.
A target with total cover can't be targeted directly by an attack or a spell, although some spells can reach such a target by including it in an area of effect. A target has total cover if it is completely concealed by an obstacle.
Since counterspell directly targets the fighter who is behind total cover, they are protected from it. Misty step, on the other hand, targets self, so I am able to cast it and teleport through a wall of force (Crawford explains). Basically, if you are can target me with a counterspell, I am capable of shooting you with an arrow. Otherwise, I can misty step to a location that works (potentially needing to make a save first).
Huh. I kinda just took things at face value. Wall of Force being invisible and Counterspell stating you need to see the spell to mean it would work. Guess the rules don't support that.
Well you do have good saves, and I forgot about indomitable and how it interacts with Portent. I'm a mess right now :P
Edit: Couple of fun thoughts:
Build a fat wizard. High Con, Tough, Abjuration School. Just sits there and takes it. Doesn't care if you go first, doesn't care if he fails the banishing arrows. He'll survive the three turns and bury you as a dragon, or cast invulnerability after you've used up your banishing arrows.
Does a small sized Necromancer gain total cover from their army of undead? If so, doesn't that guarantee the wizard gets a turn even if they lose the initiative roll? At which point, Dragon.
Edit Edit:
You can only take resilient once. A wizard build with resilient (charisma) is going to throw a wrench in the banishing arrow plan.
Whoops - now its my turn to misremember a rule. I thought Resilient functioned like Elemental Adept. That means I have to choose which save I want to protect, which gets awkward. Guess that frees up space for Drow High Magic, at least.
A creature usually would count as half cover. A mob of creatures could count as 3/4 cover (DMs call), but not full.
I agree that if a wizard truly wants to maximize their chances of beating a fighter, they should actually drop int a bit in order to increase survivability. They don't need int to become a dragon. That also protects them against nova variants.
Yeah it doesn't help that DDB has nothing set to stop you from taking it multiple times. Super easy mistake. Gives you space to consider alert as well.
That makes sense on the cover, at which point sharpshooter lets the AA snipe the wizard in the toes or whatever inch of body they see lol.
And absolutely, I've been thinking a lot about lower intelligence builds for this challenge since last night because the wizard has so many ways to approach things that don't require DCs by the time they unlock level 9 spells.
Yeah it doesn't help that DDB has nothing set to stop you from taking it multiple times. Super easy mistake. Gives you space to consider alert as well.
That makes sense on the cover, at which point sharpshooter lets the AA snipe the wizard in the toes or whatever inch of body they see lol.
And absolutely, I've been thinking a lot about lower intelligence builds for this challenge since last night because the wizard has so many ways to approach things that don't require DCs by the time they unlock level 9 spells.
Yeah that's the main thing with Wizard is the sheer amount of powerful options where as the fighter pretty much has to go first and get the Wizard to 0 or it's likely over.
Haha I’m back to see y’all and to say wizard auto wins (Love see if someone can beat this). Also just to say any realistic wizard would very easily win (via Contingency, Simulacrum, Clone [Just in case hahaha]).
Some context as established before:
Both Players get no planing except for Magic Armor (For the wizard) and both players get to choose their spells, feats, and any other things (Battlemaster Maneuvers).
Both players get no magic items as it adds to much variables (Just to say a fighter who gets a magic items benefits him more than the wizard)
Both players can only use starting items or starting gold (Averaging it out). Although both players for the sake of use any ability that uses a costly item (50gp Pearl) you already have.
The Most Common talked about builds are as follows:
Fighter: Eldritch Knight (His best chance to win kinda), Arcane Archer, and A Nova Build (Samuri, Battle Master, etc)
Wizard: Chronurgist (Auto-win), Divination, Bladesinger (Kinda), and some others with niche builds (But no less powerful)
So for the wizard to win (Via spells) he must win initiative. The wizard can do so via being a Chronurgist (The Strongest, even if debatable). So the Chronurgist does as follows:
Maxes: Int, and Dex (Maybe Con if you want), and the feat Alert. To get a +15 Initiative score. Then use convergent future to guarantee their failure or your success (PLEASE tell me if I missed a way a fighter can get better initiative than +15).
Now that the wizard goes first he can do anything he wants using the spells he prepared (Depending on what the enemy’s build). Keep in mind even if the enemy is a Eldritch Knight and tries to counter spell you no doubt will be able to easily counter their counterspell.
PS: With a lot of the Fighter Builds (Shown when they say “Just Max Str, Dex, Con,” leaving the metal scores at 8 (-1) against a like 19 Dc which is horrible even if you use indomitable).
Some Spells the wizard could use are: Wish (Do Anything), Timestop (Prep/Otherwise), True polymorph (Dragon, Beholder, Rakshasa, or whatever you can think of), Invulnerability (Depends on the others build), Force Cage (Depends), Resilient Sphere, Wall of Force, Invisabilty, Polymorph, Banishment, Animate objects, Blink, ANY TRANSPORTATION SPELL (Example: Dimension door or Teleport to move away for some distance, prep or otherwise), ANY SAVE OR SUCK SPELL (Hold Person/Monster or Dominate Person/Monster, Etc), Globe of Invulnerability, Etherealness, Feeblemind, Maze, Illusory Dragon, Prismatic Wall, Shapechange, Gate, Temporal Shunt.
Some others are: Counterspell, Dispell, Haste, Slow, Phantasmal Force, Fireball, Fly, Ang of the Good Summoning spells (From per say Tashas), (In some builds) Anti-magic Field, Find Familiar (Why not), Demiplane, Sequester (For a cheese build by making the fighter die of age haha), Magnificent Mansion, and many more spells.
EDIT: Grammer/Appeal
EDIT/EDIT: Concerning Being a Eldritch Knight or Arcane Archer I realized that being a Rakshasa would mean a Eldritch Knight couldn’t even kill/damage the True Polymorphed Wizard. While Arcane Archer can (Via, Magic Arrow) that means the wizard just has to have a to kill a Arcane Archer (Easily Done) as the Eldritch Knight build isn’t viable to be really used.
I think it's a disingenuous comparison to suggest a level 20 fighter wouldn't have magic items. While I can agree that them having some of the more esoteric ones makes it a bit hard, the assumption that a melee fighter doesn't gain access to a flight speed via an item, or that they wouldn't have a magic weapon of any kind etc. is unrealistic. I DO agree that while the fighter might have a few dice based chances, they would realistically struggle to actually pin down any competent level 20 wizard. Initiative is a biggy (there is a maneuver that lets you add to your initiative and so with that would be comparable to a +15, alert + 20 dex + 1d8 averages to a +15 initiative modifier. This doesn't help with the ability to just alter rolls though). Indomitable isn't a legendary resistance, but it isn't unreasonable to also pair that up with the fighter taking resilient as with 7 ASI after maxing out primary offensive stat and related combat feats just getting save proficiencies is a good choice to spend them. This again will struggle to actually counter any of the roll manipulation that divination/chronurgy have access to, and also doesn't help against any spells that can just hard nosell them like invulnerability and wall of force. If you lower the standard to "can a competent fighter actually defeat a wizard that isn't optimized for PVP (AKA roll manipulation)" the fighter still struggles, but it's possible with a few builds that you might be able to nova them to death if they don't have a contingency hard counter prepared or win initiative.
I think it's a disingenuous comparison to suggest a level 20 fighter wouldn't have magic items. While I can agree that them having some of the more esoteric ones makes it a bit hard, the assumption that a melee fighter doesn't gain access to a flight speed via an item, or that they wouldn't have a magic weapon of any kind etc. is unrealistic. I DO agree that while the fighter might have a few dice based chances, they would realistically struggle to actually pin down any competent level 20 wizard. Initiative is a biggy (there is a maneuver that lets you add to your initiative and so with that would be comparable to a +15, alert + 20 dex + 1d8 averages to a +15 initiative modifier. This doesn't help with the ability to just alter rolls though). Indomitable isn't a legendary resistance, but it isn't unreasonable to also pair that up with the fighter taking resilient as with 7 ASI after maxing out primary offensive stat and related combat feats just getting save proficiencies is a good choice to spend them. This again will struggle to actually counter any of the roll manipulation that divination/chronurgy have access to, and also doesn't help against any spells that can just hard nosell them like invulnerability and wall of force. If you lower the standard to "can a competent fighter actually defeat a wizard that isn't optimized for PVP (AKA roll manipulation)" the fighter still struggles, but it's possible with a few builds that you might be able to nova them to death if they don't have a contingency hard counter prepared or win initiative.
Yeah I agree here...if the fighter can win initiative and nova hard enough it will be winnable.
Mostly if you place the fight in a scenario where the fighter will have a significant advantage (magic items, wizard can cast no spells ahead of time/have any setup) then the fighter has a better chance.
Mostly I DO think that in a more real world scenario or one that might actually come up in a campaign the wizard would have things prepared/have a simulacrum because...why wouldn't they? Wizards big thing is planning ahead and taking that away is like taking away the fighters last attack.
I think it's a disingenuous comparison to suggest a level 20 fighter wouldn't have magic items. While I can agree that them having some of the more esoteric ones makes it a bit hard, the assumption that a melee fighter doesn't gain access to a flight speed via an item, or that they wouldn't have a magic weapon of any kind etc. is unrealistic. I DO agree that while the fighter might have a few dice based chances, they would realistically struggle to actually pin down any competent level 20 wizard. Initiative is a biggy (there is a maneuver that lets you add to your initiative and so with that would be comparable to a +15, alert + 20 dex + 1d8 averages to a +15 initiative modifier. This doesn't help with the ability to just alter rolls though). Indomitable isn't a legendary resistance, but it isn't unreasonable to also pair that up with the fighter taking resilient as with 7 ASI after maxing out primary offensive stat and related combat feats just getting save proficiencies is a good choice to spend them. This again will struggle to actually counter any of the roll manipulation that divination/chronurgy have access to, and also doesn't help against any spells that can just hard nosell them like invulnerability and wall of force. If you lower the standard to "can a competent fighter actually defeat a wizard that isn't optimized for PVP (AKA roll manipulation)" the fighter still struggles, but it's possible with a few builds that you might be able to nova them to death if they don't have a contingency hard counter prepared or win initiative.
Yeah I agree here...if the fighter can win initiative and nova hard enough it will be winnable.
Mostly if you place the fight in a scenario where the fighter will have a significant advantage (magic items, wizard can cast no spells ahead of time/have any setup) then the fighter has a better chance.
Mostly I DO think that in a more real world scenario or one that might actually come up in a campaign the wizard would have things prepared/have a simulacrum because...why wouldn't they? Wizards big thing is planning ahead and taking that away is like taking away the fighters last attack.
Point One:
“Yeah I agree here...if the fighter can win initiative”
Answer: Well That’s a big maybe as the Divination/Chronurgist subclasses can just stop that from happening. Additionally, considering the Battle master maneuver as it’s a d8 you’d have to still be lucky (as the average is 4.5 that means at least a bit lucky) to get to the wizards +15.
Point Two:
“and nova hard enough it will be winnable.”
Answer: The strongest Nova that come to mind is ether the Arcane Archer cheese Banishment that just like wouldn’t work well or a Samurai build. There are some problems with those though like:
They would require to beat the wizards godly initiative of +15 with roll manipulation.
They would need to perhaps get past a AC of 23 (Mage Armor [Wizard auto Gets] = 13 + 5 [20 Dex] + 5 Shield Spell).
They would need to then also deal more than at least like 100 - 162ish Hp depending on the build.
And if not kill in one turn stop the wizards turn so he just doesn’t disappear into the ethereal realm (or something).
Point Three:
“Mostly if you place the fight in a scenario where the fighter will have a significant advantage (magic items, wizard can cast no spells ahead of time/have any setup) then the fighter has a better chance.”
Answer: Of course if you give the Fighter magic items against the Wizard he will be at a disadvantage (as not having a magic item). Additionally, no prep time hurts the wizard more as well... if they would have prep time they like auto win (even if just one turn). And when you say better chance I hope you mean will die less faster as that would be the truth. But this all means nothing as in the previous part of this discussion magic items and prep time are null (Except for Mage Armor for the Wizard).
Point Four:
“Mostly I DO think that in a more real world scenario or one that might actually come up in a campaign the wizard would have things prepared/have a simulacrum because...why wouldn't they? Wizards big thing is planning ahead and taking that away is like taking away the fighters last attack.”
Answer: Yes in a “real world” scenario like in a campaign the wizard would have all the contingencies out there (Pun intended) like clone, simulacrum, contingency and more like wards, glyphs, runes, self enchanted gear, self scribed scrolls, self brewed potions and MORE!! And yes no planning hurts the wizard more than the fighter as the fighter doesn’t have much to prepare. But YEAH the wizard I have no doubt would destroy the fighter even if not really built for fighting having only utility spells.
I think it's a disingenuous comparison to suggest a level 20 fighter wouldn't have magic items. While I can agree that them having some of the more esoteric ones makes it a bit hard, the assumption that a melee fighter doesn't gain access to a flight speed via an item, or that they wouldn't have a magic weapon of any kind etc. is unrealistic. I DO agree that while the fighter might have a few dice based chances, they would realistically struggle to actually pin down any competent level 20 wizard. Initiative is a biggy (there is a maneuver that lets you add to your initiative and so with that would be comparable to a +15, alert + 20 dex + 1d8 averages to a +15 initiative modifier. This doesn't help with the ability to just alter rolls though). Indomitable isn't a legendary resistance, but it isn't unreasonable to also pair that up with the fighter taking resilient as with 7 ASI after maxing out primary offensive stat and related combat feats just getting save proficiencies is a good choice to spend them. This again will struggle to actually counter any of the roll manipulation that divination/chronurgy have access to, and also doesn't help against any spells that can just hard nosell them like invulnerability and wall of force. If you lower the standard to "can a competent fighter actually defeat a wizard that isn't optimized for PVP (AKA roll manipulation)" the fighter still struggles, but it's possible with a few builds that you might be able to nova them to death if they don't have a contingency hard counter prepared or win initiative.
Oh Yeah kinda forget to do this one: (They’re kinda the same in a way)
Point One:
“I think it's a disingenuous comparison to suggest a level 20 fighter wouldn't have magic items. While I can agree that them having some of the more esoteric ones makes it a bit hard, the assumption that a melee fighter doesn't gain access to a flight speed via an item, or that they wouldn't have a magic weapon of any kind etc. is unrealistic.”
Answer: I think it’s a disingenuous comparison to suggest a level 20 wizard wouldn’t have “all the contingencies out there (Pun intended) like clone, simulacrum, contingency and more like wards, glyphs, runes, self enchanted gear, self scribed scrolls, self brewed potions and MORE!!” Additionally, it is unrealistic but if we are doing a realistic fight (even though it is just a battle of the classes not gear/magic items) the fighter would be kitted out and the wizard would be prepared with like the thousands of plans.
Point Two:
“I DO agree that while the fighter might have a few dice based chances, they would realistically struggle to actually pin down any competent level 20 wizard.“
Answer: Concerning the dice chances most of what he does is entirely dependent on the wizard getting the worse rolls have the least HP and no AC to be insta killed. True a fighter would “realistically struggle to actually pin down any competent level 20 wizard” because they would:
A. Prepare Useful Spells
B. Use Spells Effectively
C. Have A Spell List that promotes varied Spell Use
D. Etc, Etc, so on and so forth (You get the point)
Point Three:
“Initiative is a biggy (there is a maneuver that lets you add to your initiative and so with that would be comparable to a +15, alert + 20 dex + 1d8 averages to a +15 initiative modifier. This doesn't help with the ability to just alter rolls though).”
Answer: Yeah it’d be very hard for the fighter to catch the wizard even with the possible +15 because of the Dice roll and it’s like impossible to get past the Convergent Future or Chronal Shift to be used.
Point Four:
”Indomitable isn't a legendary resistance, but it isn't unreasonable to also pair that up with the fighter taking resilient as with 7 ASI after maxing out primary offensive stat and related combat feats just getting save proficiencies is a good choice to spend them. This again will struggle to actually counter any of the roll manipulation that divination/chronurgy have access to, and also doesn't help against any spells that can just hard nosell them like invulnerability and wall of force.“
Answer: Yep indomitable is just a reroll but even with resilient some luck is still required. Yeah the Fighter does have (BIG) problems as they can’t adjust rolls that much/at all. The Arcane Archer with his Banishing arrow incapacitates the target making the wizard lose concentration on his spell (But well the wizard has to fail a Cha save so that’s a Ehhhhhhh....).
Point Five:
“If you lower the standard to "can a competent fighter actually defeat a wizard that isn't optimized for PVP (AKA roll manipulation)" the fighter still struggles, but it's possible with a few builds that you might be able to nova them to death if they don't have a contingency hard counter prepared or win initiative.”
Answer: Like you said even though the wizard isn’t optimized for PvP he is still a powerful wizard full of tricks and spells to bamboozle the fighter. Let say the Arcane Archer with Battle Maneuvers, Lucky, SS and max whatever fights an Illusionist Archmage he would still have a incredibly hard time to defeat the wizard as the wizard probably still has the staples of any wizard: Misty Step, Counterspell, Shield, Mage Armor and more to survive and circumstance along with the power of a 20th level illusionist by making illusionary Objects real he can set up huge traps walls made of adamantine or what ever (I doubt that the fighter could reliably kill any wizard with just plain nova damage). But yeah concerning the Contingency spell in reality a wizard would always have that along with whatever he prepared so yeah It’d be very hard for the fighter to win unless the wizard is utterly incompetent or otherwise of which I doubt as they are the upmost Archmage and Spellcaster.
Yes. A long time ago. The only way a fighter has any chance whatsoever is to strip away all context and make it a white room scenario with no prep time. From there, only four fighter subclasses can present a build that's even a little problematic to the wizard: banishing arrow Arcane Archers, counterspell/dispel wielding Eldritch Knights, and nova burst Samurai/Battlemasters. And even these will struggle greatly (or fail immediately in the case of the samurai and battlemaster) to win if the wizard (using any school of magic) gets even a single turn. Even when these fighter builds do manage to go first, their chances of victory are not even close to guaranteed. Outside of their element, ANY level 20 wizard will completely shut down most fighters with one spell, are never in danger of dying to most of them in one turn, and have a vaguely interesting multi-turn contest with the Arcane Archer and Eldritch Knight that is very likely to end in a wizard victory as well. Any betting man would call the wizard an odds on favorite.
It's very amusing to me to call out the lack of magic items on the fighter as disingenuous considering the only way the fighter has any chance (and a losing one at that) is to strip away the very essence of playing a high level wizard: PLANNING. Not to mention that the wizard hasn't been given any magic items either! For every offensive buff the fighter can have a defensive one to match. They can go toe to toe on initiative boosting items as well, making sure chronurgists and war wizards maintain their edge.
Magic items are not, and should not be included in this showdown because it makes the comparison about the capabilities of the magic items as much, if not more than the abilities of the classes themselves. An oathbow wielding elven accuracy Champion is going to be seriously dangerous, but without that oathbow isn't a problem at all. At that point it's just about how good the item is. Obviously, not every item is an oathbow level of good in a PvP situation, but the slope is slippery, and it's better to keep magic items out of it.
Just for the fun of it, here's a different approach for the Wizard side:
Play as a hobgoblin with 17 constitution and 13 dexterity to start. Spend your 5 ASI's on moderately armored (+1 dex), resilient (constitution), +2 constitution, warcaster, and tough. Choose any school of magic you like (abjuration puts it over the top, but illusion is my current favorite to abuse the fighter with illusory reality)
Yes. A long time ago. The only way a fighter has any chance whatsoever is to strip away all context and make it a white room scenario with no prep time. From there, only four fighter subclasses can present a build that's even a little problematic to the wizard: banishing arrow Arcane Archers, counterspell/dispel wielding Eldritch Knights, and nova burst Samurai/Battlemasters. And even these will struggle greatly (or fail immediately in the case of the samurai and battlemaster) to win if the wizard (using any school of magic) gets even a single turn. Even when these fighter builds do manage to go first, their chances of victory are not even close to guaranteed. Outside of their element, ANY level 20 wizard will completely shut down most fighters with one spell, are never in danger of dying to most of them in one turn, and have a vaguely interesting multi-turn contest with the Arcane Archer and Eldritch Knight that is very likely to end in a wizard victory as well. Any betting man would call the wizard an odds on favorite.
It's very amusing to me to call out the lack of magic items on the fighter as disingenuous considering the only way the fighter has any chance (and a losing one at that) is to strip away the very essence of playing a high level wizard: PLANNING. Not to mention that the wizard hasn't been given any magic items either! For every offensive buff the fighter can have a defensive one to match. They can go toe to toe on initiative boosting items as well, making sure chronurgists and war wizards maintain their edge.
Magic items are not, and should not be included in this showdown because it makes the comparison about the capabilities of the magic items as much, if not more than the abilities of the classes themselves. An oathbow wielding elven accuracy Champion is going to be seriously dangerous, but without that oathbow isn't a problem at all. At that point it's just about how good the item is. Obviously, not every item is an oathbow level of good in a PvP situation, but the slope is slippery, and it's better to keep magic items out of it.
Just for the fun of it, here's a different approach for the Wizard side:
Play as a hobgoblin with 17 constitution and 13 dexterity to start. Spend your 5 ASI's on moderately armored (+1 dex), resilient (constitution), +2 constitution, warcaster, and tough. Choose any school of magic you like (abjuration puts it over the top, but illusion is my current favorite to abuse the fighter with illusory reality)
Forget about squabbling over initiative rolls. Just eat the hits and end it after the fighter blows their load.
Great Post!
Point One:
“Yes. A long time ago.”
Answer: Tis but only truth spoken from thy tongue. ;)
Point Two:
“The only way a fighter has any chance whatsoever is to strip away all context and make it a white room scenario with no prep time.”
Answer: Haha yeah quite so.
Point Three:
“From there, only four fighter subclasses can present a build that's even a little problematic to the wizard: banishing arrow Arcane Archers, counterspell/dispel wielding Eldritch Knights, and nova burst Samurai/Battlemasters. And even these will struggle greatly (or fail immediately in the case of the samurai and battlemaster) to win if the wizard (using any school of magic) gets even a single turn. Even when these fighter builds do manage to go first, their chances of victory are not even close to guaranteed.”
Answer: Even with the four subclasses to win initiative against Divination/War Magic or more importantly Chronurgist is at least improbable and at best impossible. That isn’t even taking in that Nova is almost impossible unless the wizard has 10 con, shield not prepared and zero competence (Haha). As with the EK and AA those two are most probable in that EK has Dispel and Counterspell but that doesn’t matter as the wizard can just up cast counterspell (5th level) and auto defeats the EK’s Counterspell so he’s kinda just not viable when the wizard just out Eldritch Knights the Eldritch Knight. As with AA the best chance the AA has is the banishing arrow strategy but the problem with that is it relies well on the banishing arrow and thats all the wizard has to worry about and that’s not much to worry about considering the feats and abilities the wizard has to bypass such a foolish endeavour. As with the wizard getting one turn and winning very true even in a non-optimized build he would still win with an average spell list without their school (Divination, Illusion, etc).
Point Four:
”Outside of their element, ANY level 20 wizard will completely shut down most fighters with one spell, are never in danger of dying to most of them in one turn, and have a vaguely interesting multi-turn contest with the Arcane Archer and Eldritch Knight that is very likely to end in a wizard victory as well. Any betting man would call the wizard an odds on favorite.”
Answer: With one spell they are gone haha. I bet all to the wizard. As with AA yeah it needs the perfect build while the Wizard has the worst build for a chance of winning. My bets are to the wizard.
Point Five:
“Just for the fun of it, here's a different approach for the Wizard side:
Play as a hobgoblin with 17 constitution and 13 dexterity to start. Spend your 5 ASI's on moderately armored (+1 dex), resilient (constitution), +2 constitution, warcaster, and tough. Choose any school of magic you like (abjuration puts it over the top, but illusion is my current favorite to abuse the fighter with illusory reality)
Forget about squabbling over initiative rolls. Just eat the hits and end it after the fighter blows their load.”
Answer: Great build the AC alone would practically guarantee survival not to mention the large pool of hp to come along with. Now with abjuration (like you said) your hp would rival even tank builds (to a certain extent of course haha). As with the Illusion school like I once said before you could just make an adamantine cage (with a special design to easily pick/attack the fighter) then make it real.
You guys forget the obvious - a level 20 Champion Dwarf with Shield Master, Res Dex, Dwarven Fortitude, Durable, and ASIs sprinkled in to get to 20 Con. You can literally outlast every single spell level of damage they can muster. You don’t need to attack, just dodge until the Wizard has literally used every single damaging spell they want to cast. Once they’re down to Cantrips they can’t even do enough damage mathematically because with your dodging and defenses their damage output will never out-point your regeneration. Once you’re back up to half health, just chop away until the Wizard is dead.
I did a bunch of creation stuff early on, I’ll have to dig it out.
The War Magician has the same initiative, and the Diviner has portent. Both can turn into an Ancient Brass Dragon after making it very difficult for the fighter to go first.
Or Force Cage followed by Counterspell on your one attempt to Misty Step out.
I will admit Banishing Arrows are much better than I had originally understood.
Yeah the main thing is the banishing arrow can be done as part of ANY attack which does make it more and more powerful the more attacks you get.
Overall the main issue is damage in/out with most of the fighter subclasses. They do great damage per round which is awesome as part of a party but PvP is all about the knock out blow you can get and MOST fighters just do not have it.
Now if we started talking fighter vs. wizard at different levels it does get more interesting. A 5th level fighter will likely beat up a wizard most of the time simply due to the lack of these knock out spells that wizards get at later levels and the very low HP and likely AC of the wizard early on.
Banishing Arrow is very strong, but the Arcane Archer does not get access to counterspell or dispel magic and has nothing innate to boost their initiative. Fey Touched for Misty Step doesn't actually solve the force cage problem because of the Wizard's counterspell. So anytime the Wizard goes first (likely) or gets a single turn (also fairly likely) the match is over.
As for mentioning the tough feat when talking about builds, it was not changing anything. The Arcane Archer was given access to Fey Touched and then it was mentioned that other wizard builds/feats had not been considered. I simply mentioned that Tough (a feat that is not out of the question for a wizard to have naturally) would make all of the damage calculations moot. I think that's relevant.
And of course. The fighter will have a better chance the more and more you reduce the level of the two classes. Wizards don't have a linear power curve.
Agree on all counts
The fighter is immune to the wizard's Counterspell while inside of the Forcecage (box form). He can still Misty Step out as long as if he passes his save.
If the wizard uses cage form with gaps between the bars to allow for counterspell, the fighter can just shoot through the gaps and has no cover penalty thanks to Sharpshooter.
Initiative boosts are definitely in the wizard's favor. The only counterpoint is that Fighters have more feat flexibility for easier access to Alert, but wizards still can squeeze the feat in if they really need to. That, and I've already used a good chunk of feat budget already on this particular fighter build.
*smacks forehead* I keep missing key parts of game features. I'm sorry about that.
Remember the wizard trying to pass that charisma save? Yeah the fighter isn't any better and this is a DC19. And if this is a Diviner with portent (why wouldn't it be?). You need three d20's to all come up 19 or higher. There is a .1% chance of that happening.
I'd say the fighter is stuck in that forcecage. At which point the wizard can cast mirror image, contingency, tiny servant and any other number of spells in the space of an hour so that they can straight up murder the fighter once force cage pops.
But let's say both of the Diviner's portents are 19 or higher (1% chance) and they don't want to risk the fighter hitting that save to escape forcecage. Enter wall of force. The wording on the spell lets you be pretty darn creative with the shape. Create a triangular box, stacking the walls three high (30 feet), using 9 of the 10 walls. Keep the top open. Let's see the fighter get out of that while the wizard pelts him with AoE effects and stifles any attempts to misty step with counterspell. Oh and since both of the Portent rolls in this scenario are 19 or 20, the Diviner has a very high chance of going first.
I took Resilient Cha and Resilient: Wis in my particular build and have 12 Cha and Wisdom for +7 saves on each.
I built the actual character here for transparency.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/profile/Aethelwolf/characters/42482728
This version uses 18 int, so I'm back to the 90% banish rate. If I need Drow High Magic I drop to 16 int, which starts to add a bit of risk for making the save. There's room to move Con points around into Wisdom and Charisma but I don't know how comfortable I am with that. Needing the option to tackle the Dragon opening makes me realize how squeezed I am getting for feats and that I don't have much room for Alert, which means my chances are definitely dropping some. Stupid dragons getting to keep their legendary resistances *grumble grumble*.
I am thinking that I may have to commit to combating subset of openings rather than hoping to cover them all. I assume that the wizard doesn't get to know exactly which feats I grab when he takes his turn, so he'll have to do some guessing on his end too.
For Wall of Force, though, it does provide total cover, which prevents the fighter from being targeted.
Since counterspell directly targets the fighter who is behind total cover, they are protected from it. Misty step, on the other hand, targets self, so I am able to cast it and teleport through a wall of force (Crawford explains). Basically, if you are can target me with a counterspell, I am capable of shooting you with an arrow. Otherwise, I can misty step to a location that works (potentially needing to make a save first).
Huh. I kinda just took things at face value. Wall of Force being invisible and Counterspell stating you need to see the spell to mean it would work. Guess the rules don't support that.
Well you do have good saves, and I forgot about indomitable and how it interacts with Portent. I'm a mess right now :P
Edit: Couple of fun thoughts:
Build a fat wizard. High Con, Tough, Abjuration School. Just sits there and takes it. Doesn't care if you go first, doesn't care if he fails the banishing arrows. He'll survive the three turns and bury you as a dragon, or cast invulnerability after you've used up your banishing arrows.
Does a small sized Necromancer gain total cover from their army of undead? If so, doesn't that guarantee the wizard gets a turn even if they lose the initiative roll? At which point, Dragon.
Edit Edit:
You can only take resilient once. A wizard build with resilient (charisma) is going to throw a wrench in the banishing arrow plan.
Whoops - now its my turn to misremember a rule. I thought Resilient functioned like Elemental Adept. That means I have to choose which save I want to protect, which gets awkward. Guess that frees up space for Drow High Magic, at least.
A creature usually would count as half cover. A mob of creatures could count as 3/4 cover (DMs call), but not full.
I agree that if a wizard truly wants to maximize their chances of beating a fighter, they should actually drop int a bit in order to increase survivability. They don't need int to become a dragon. That also protects them against nova variants.
Yeah it doesn't help that DDB has nothing set to stop you from taking it multiple times. Super easy mistake. Gives you space to consider alert as well.
That makes sense on the cover, at which point sharpshooter lets the AA snipe the wizard in the toes or whatever inch of body they see lol.
And absolutely, I've been thinking a lot about lower intelligence builds for this challenge since last night because the wizard has so many ways to approach things that don't require DCs by the time they unlock level 9 spells.
Yeah that's the main thing with Wizard is the sheer amount of powerful options where as the fighter pretty much has to go first and get the Wizard to 0 or it's likely over.
Haha I’m back to see y’all and to say wizard auto wins (Love see if someone can beat this). Also just to say any realistic wizard would very easily win (via Contingency, Simulacrum, Clone [Just in case hahaha]).
Some context as established before:
Both Players get no planing except for Magic Armor (For the wizard) and both players get to choose their spells, feats, and any other things (Battlemaster Maneuvers).
Both players get no magic items as it adds to much variables (Just to say a fighter who gets a magic items benefits him more than the wizard)
Both players can only use starting items or starting gold (Averaging it out). Although both players for the sake of use any ability that uses a costly item (50gp Pearl) you already have.
The Most Common talked about builds are as follows:
Fighter: Eldritch Knight (His best chance to win kinda), Arcane Archer, and A Nova Build (Samuri, Battle Master, etc)
Wizard: Chronurgist (Auto-win), Divination, Bladesinger (Kinda), and some others with niche builds (But no less powerful)
So for the wizard to win (Via spells) he must win initiative. The wizard can do so via being a Chronurgist (The Strongest, even if debatable). So the Chronurgist does as follows:
Maxes: Int, and Dex (Maybe Con if you want), and the feat Alert. To get a +15 Initiative score. Then use convergent future to guarantee their failure or your success (PLEASE tell me if I missed a way a fighter can get better initiative than +15).
Now that the wizard goes first he can do anything he wants using the spells he prepared (Depending on what the enemy’s build). Keep in mind even if the enemy is a Eldritch Knight and tries to counter spell you no doubt will be able to easily counter their counterspell.
PS: With a lot of the Fighter Builds (Shown when they say “Just Max Str, Dex, Con,” leaving the metal scores at 8 (-1) against a like 19 Dc which is horrible even if you use indomitable).
Some Spells the wizard could use are: Wish (Do Anything), Timestop (Prep/Otherwise), True polymorph (Dragon, Beholder, Rakshasa, or whatever you can think of), Invulnerability (Depends on the others build), Force Cage (Depends), Resilient Sphere, Wall of Force, Invisabilty, Polymorph, Banishment, Animate objects, Blink, ANY TRANSPORTATION SPELL (Example: Dimension door or Teleport to move away for some distance, prep or otherwise), ANY SAVE OR SUCK SPELL (Hold Person/Monster or Dominate Person/Monster, Etc), Globe of Invulnerability, Etherealness, Feeblemind, Maze, Illusory Dragon, Prismatic Wall, Shapechange, Gate, Temporal Shunt.
Some others are: Counterspell, Dispell, Haste, Slow, Phantasmal Force, Fireball, Fly, Ang of the Good Summoning spells (From per say Tashas), (In some builds) Anti-magic Field, Find Familiar (Why not), Demiplane, Sequester (For a cheese build by making the fighter die of age haha), Magnificent Mansion, and many more spells.
EDIT: Grammer/Appeal
EDIT/EDIT: Concerning Being a Eldritch Knight or Arcane Archer I realized that being a Rakshasa would mean a Eldritch Knight couldn’t even kill/damage the True Polymorphed Wizard. While Arcane Archer can (Via, Magic Arrow) that means the wizard just has to have a to kill a Arcane Archer (Easily Done) as the Eldritch Knight build isn’t viable to be really used.
I think it's a disingenuous comparison to suggest a level 20 fighter wouldn't have magic items. While I can agree that them having some of the more esoteric ones makes it a bit hard, the assumption that a melee fighter doesn't gain access to a flight speed via an item, or that they wouldn't have a magic weapon of any kind etc. is unrealistic. I DO agree that while the fighter might have a few dice based chances, they would realistically struggle to actually pin down any competent level 20 wizard. Initiative is a biggy (there is a maneuver that lets you add to your initiative and so with that would be comparable to a +15, alert + 20 dex + 1d8 averages to a +15 initiative modifier. This doesn't help with the ability to just alter rolls though). Indomitable isn't a legendary resistance, but it isn't unreasonable to also pair that up with the fighter taking resilient as with 7 ASI after maxing out primary offensive stat and related combat feats just getting save proficiencies is a good choice to spend them. This again will struggle to actually counter any of the roll manipulation that divination/chronurgy have access to, and also doesn't help against any spells that can just hard nosell them like invulnerability and wall of force. If you lower the standard to "can a competent fighter actually defeat a wizard that isn't optimized for PVP (AKA roll manipulation)" the fighter still struggles, but it's possible with a few builds that you might be able to nova them to death if they don't have a contingency hard counter prepared or win initiative.
Yeah I agree here...if the fighter can win initiative and nova hard enough it will be winnable.
Mostly if you place the fight in a scenario where the fighter will have a significant advantage (magic items, wizard can cast no spells ahead of time/have any setup) then the fighter has a better chance.
Mostly I DO think that in a more real world scenario or one that might actually come up in a campaign the wizard would have things prepared/have a simulacrum because...why wouldn't they? Wizards big thing is planning ahead and taking that away is like taking away the fighters last attack.
Point One:
“Yeah I agree here...if the fighter can win initiative”
Answer: Well That’s a big maybe as the Divination/Chronurgist subclasses can just stop that from happening. Additionally, considering the Battle master maneuver as it’s a d8 you’d have to still be lucky (as the average is 4.5 that means at least a bit lucky) to get to the wizards +15.
Point Two:
“and nova hard enough it will be winnable.”
Answer: The strongest Nova that come to mind is ether the Arcane Archer cheese Banishment that just like wouldn’t work well or a Samurai build. There are some problems with those though like:
They would require to beat the wizards godly initiative of +15 with roll manipulation.
They would need to perhaps get past a AC of 23 (Mage Armor [Wizard auto Gets] = 13 + 5 [20 Dex] + 5 Shield Spell).
They would need to then also deal more than at least like 100 - 162ish Hp depending on the build.
And if not kill in one turn stop the wizards turn so he just doesn’t disappear into the ethereal realm (or something).
Point Three:
“Mostly if you place the fight in a scenario where the fighter will have a significant advantage (magic items, wizard can cast no spells ahead of time/have any setup) then the fighter has a better chance.”
Answer: Of course if you give the Fighter magic items against the Wizard he will be at a disadvantage (as not having a magic item). Additionally, no prep time hurts the wizard more as well... if they would have prep time they like auto win (even if just one turn). And when you say better chance I hope you mean will die less faster as that would be the truth. But this all means nothing as in the previous part of this discussion magic items and prep time are null (Except for Mage Armor for the Wizard).
Point Four:
“Mostly I DO think that in a more real world scenario or one that might actually come up in a campaign the wizard would have things prepared/have a simulacrum because...why wouldn't they? Wizards big thing is planning ahead and taking that away is like taking away the fighters last attack.”
Answer: Yes in a “real world” scenario like in a campaign the wizard would have all the contingencies out there (Pun intended) like clone, simulacrum, contingency and more like wards, glyphs, runes, self enchanted gear, self scribed scrolls, self brewed potions and MORE!! And yes no planning hurts the wizard more than the fighter as the fighter doesn’t have much to prepare. But YEAH the wizard I have no doubt would destroy the fighter even if not really built for fighting having only utility spells.
Oh Yeah kinda forget to do this one: (They’re kinda the same in a way)
Point One:
“I think it's a disingenuous comparison to suggest a level 20 fighter wouldn't have magic items. While I can agree that them having some of the more esoteric ones makes it a bit hard, the assumption that a melee fighter doesn't gain access to a flight speed via an item, or that they wouldn't have a magic weapon of any kind etc. is unrealistic.”
Answer: I think it’s a disingenuous comparison to suggest a level 20 wizard wouldn’t have “all the contingencies out there (Pun intended) like clone, simulacrum, contingency and more like wards, glyphs, runes, self enchanted gear, self scribed scrolls, self brewed potions and MORE!!”
Additionally, it is unrealistic but if we are doing a realistic fight (even though it is just a battle of the classes not gear/magic items) the fighter would be kitted out and the wizard would be prepared with like the thousands of plans.
Point Two:
“I DO agree that while the fighter might have a few dice based chances, they would realistically struggle to actually pin down any competent level 20 wizard.“
Answer: Concerning the dice chances most of what he does is entirely dependent on the wizard getting the worse rolls have the least HP and no AC to be insta killed. True a fighter would “realistically struggle to actually pin down any competent level 20 wizard” because they would:
A. Prepare Useful Spells
B. Use Spells Effectively
C. Have A Spell List that promotes varied Spell Use
D. Etc, Etc, so on and so forth (You get the point)
Point Three:
“Initiative is a biggy (there is a maneuver that lets you add to your initiative and so with that would be comparable to a +15, alert + 20 dex + 1d8 averages to a +15 initiative modifier. This doesn't help with the ability to just alter rolls though).”
Answer: Yeah it’d be very hard for the fighter to catch the wizard even with the possible +15 because of the Dice roll and it’s like impossible to get past the Convergent Future or Chronal Shift to be used.
Point Four:
”Indomitable isn't a legendary resistance, but it isn't unreasonable to also pair that up with the fighter taking resilient as with 7 ASI after maxing out primary offensive stat and related combat feats just getting save proficiencies is a good choice to spend them. This again will struggle to actually counter any of the roll manipulation that divination/chronurgy have access to, and also doesn't help against any spells that can just hard nosell them like invulnerability and wall of force.“
Answer: Yep indomitable is just a reroll but even with resilient some luck is still required. Yeah the Fighter does have (BIG) problems as they can’t adjust rolls that much/at all. The Arcane Archer with his Banishing arrow incapacitates the target making the wizard lose concentration on his spell (But well the wizard has to fail a Cha save so that’s a Ehhhhhhh....).
Point Five:
“If you lower the standard to "can a competent fighter actually defeat a wizard that isn't optimized for PVP (AKA roll manipulation)" the fighter still struggles, but it's possible with a few builds that you might be able to nova them to death if they don't have a contingency hard counter prepared or win initiative.”
Answer: Like you said even though the wizard isn’t optimized for PvP he is still a powerful wizard full of tricks and spells to bamboozle the fighter. Let say the Arcane Archer with Battle Maneuvers, Lucky, SS and max whatever fights an Illusionist Archmage he would still have a incredibly hard time to defeat the wizard as the wizard probably still has the staples of any wizard: Misty Step, Counterspell, Shield, Mage Armor and more to survive and circumstance along with the power of a 20th level illusionist by making illusionary Objects real he can set up huge traps walls made of adamantine or what ever (I doubt that the fighter could reliably kill any wizard with just plain nova damage). But yeah concerning the Contingency spell in reality a wizard would always have that along with whatever he prepared so yeah It’d be very hard for the fighter to win unless the wizard is utterly incompetent or otherwise of which I doubt as they are the upmost Archmage and Spellcaster.
Has the Wizard done it... did he win?
Yes. A long time ago. The only way a fighter has any chance whatsoever is to strip away all context and make it a white room scenario with no prep time. From there, only four fighter subclasses can present a build that's even a little problematic to the wizard: banishing arrow Arcane Archers, counterspell/dispel wielding Eldritch Knights, and nova burst Samurai/Battlemasters. And even these will struggle greatly (or fail immediately in the case of the samurai and battlemaster) to win if the wizard (using any school of magic) gets even a single turn. Even when these fighter builds do manage to go first, their chances of victory are not even close to guaranteed. Outside of their element, ANY level 20 wizard will completely shut down most fighters with one spell, are never in danger of dying to most of them in one turn, and have a vaguely interesting multi-turn contest with the Arcane Archer and Eldritch Knight that is very likely to end in a wizard victory as well. Any betting man would call the wizard an odds on favorite.
It's very amusing to me to call out the lack of magic items on the fighter as disingenuous considering the only way the fighter has any chance (and a losing one at that) is to strip away the very essence of playing a high level wizard: PLANNING. Not to mention that the wizard hasn't been given any magic items either! For every offensive buff the fighter can have a defensive one to match. They can go toe to toe on initiative boosting items as well, making sure chronurgists and war wizards maintain their edge.
Magic items are not, and should not be included in this showdown because it makes the comparison about the capabilities of the magic items as much, if not more than the abilities of the classes themselves. An oathbow wielding elven accuracy Champion is going to be seriously dangerous, but without that oathbow isn't a problem at all. At that point it's just about how good the item is. Obviously, not every item is an oathbow level of good in a PvP situation, but the slope is slippery, and it's better to keep magic items out of it.
Just for the fun of it, here's a different approach for the Wizard side:
Play as a hobgoblin with 17 constitution and 13 dexterity to start. Spend your 5 ASI's on moderately armored (+1 dex), resilient (constitution), +2 constitution, warcaster, and tough. Choose any school of magic you like (abjuration puts it over the top, but illusion is my current favorite to abuse the fighter with illusory reality)
24 AC (15 half-plate + 2 dexterity + 2 shield + 5 shield spell)
222 HP
Forget about squabbling over initiative rolls. Just eat the hits and end it after the fighter blows their load.
Great Post!
Point One:
“Yes. A long time ago.”
Answer: Tis but only truth spoken from thy tongue. ;)
Point Two:
“The only way a fighter has any chance whatsoever is to strip away all context and make it a white room scenario with no prep time.”
Answer: Haha yeah quite so.
Point Three:
“From there, only four fighter subclasses can present a build that's even a little problematic to the wizard: banishing arrow Arcane Archers, counterspell/dispel wielding Eldritch Knights, and nova burst Samurai/Battlemasters. And even these will struggle greatly (or fail immediately in the case of the samurai and battlemaster) to win if the wizard (using any school of magic) gets even a single turn. Even when these fighter builds do manage to go first, their chances of victory are not even close to guaranteed.”
Answer: Even with the four subclasses to win initiative against Divination/War Magic or more importantly Chronurgist is at least improbable and at best impossible. That isn’t even taking in that Nova is almost impossible unless the wizard has 10 con, shield not prepared and zero competence (Haha). As with the EK and AA those two are most probable in that EK has Dispel and Counterspell but that doesn’t matter as the wizard can just up cast counterspell (5th level) and auto defeats the EK’s Counterspell so he’s kinda just not viable when the wizard just out Eldritch Knights the Eldritch Knight. As with AA the best chance the AA has is the banishing arrow strategy but the problem with that is it relies well on the banishing arrow and thats all the wizard has to worry about and that’s not much to worry about considering the feats and abilities the wizard has to bypass such a foolish endeavour. As with the wizard getting one turn and winning very true even in a non-optimized build he would still win with an average spell list without their school (Divination, Illusion, etc).
Point Four:
”Outside of their element, ANY level 20 wizard will completely shut down most fighters with one spell, are never in danger of dying to most of them in one turn, and have a vaguely interesting multi-turn contest with the Arcane Archer and Eldritch Knight that is very likely to end in a wizard victory as well. Any betting man would call the wizard an odds on favorite.”
Answer: With one spell they are gone haha. I bet all to the wizard. As with AA yeah it needs the perfect build while the Wizard has the worst build for a chance of winning. My bets are to the wizard.
Point Five:
“Just for the fun of it, here's a different approach for the Wizard side:
Play as a hobgoblin with 17 constitution and 13 dexterity to start. Spend your 5 ASI's on moderately armored (+1 dex), resilient (constitution), +2 constitution, warcaster, and tough. Choose any school of magic you like (abjuration puts it over the top, but illusion is my current favorite to abuse the fighter with illusory reality)
24 AC (15 half-plate + 2 dexterity + 2 shield + 5 shield spell)
222 HP
Forget about squabbling over initiative rolls. Just eat the hits and end it after the fighter blows their load.”
Answer: Great build the AC alone would practically guarantee survival not to mention the large pool of hp to come along with. Now with abjuration (like you said) your hp would rival even tank builds (to a certain extent of course haha). As with the Illusion school like I once said before you could just make an adamantine cage (with a special design to easily pick/attack the fighter) then make it real.
You guys forget the obvious - a level 20 Champion Dwarf with Shield Master, Res Dex, Dwarven Fortitude, Durable, and ASIs sprinkled in to get to 20 Con. You can literally outlast every single spell level of damage they can muster. You don’t need to attack, just dodge until the Wizard has literally used every single damaging spell they want to cast. Once they’re down to Cantrips they can’t even do enough damage mathematically because with your dodging and defenses their damage output will never out-point your regeneration. Once you’re back up to half health, just chop away until the Wizard is dead.
I did a bunch of creation stuff early on, I’ll have to dig it out.