**grumble grumble - it takes 1-10 minutes to don armor depending on weight - grumble grumble**. But I get it, no prep time. It is what it is. Makes necromancer look pretty dang bad, so it's funny that a 200 hp necro would still cause the fighter so many problems and put on a dominating show. That's how good the matchup is. The wizard can basically throw away their class features while the fighter is struggling to put together super specific builds that can even win at all.
You cannot make something deadly real with Illusory Reality. You can however make unlimited (thanks to misty visions/spell mastery) adamantine cages with no openings except ventihilation shafts that make sight outside of the box impossible (no misty step for you). Number of ways to use the time that buys you.
**grumble grumble - it takes 1-10 minutes to don armor depending on weight - grumble grumble**. But I get it, no prep time.
Answer: As per the start of this forum the reason the wizard gets mage armor is that the fact that the fighter gets to equip his armor. You can verify this by looking back near the start of the posts. As such the fighter can equip his armor and the wizard can cast mage armor.
Makes necromancer look pretty dang bad, so it's funny that a 200 hp necro would still cause the fighter so many problems and put on a dominating show. That's how good the matchup is. The wizard can basically throw away their class features while the fighter is struggling to put together super specific builds that can even win at all.
Answer: Well if we added prep time even if it were just a turn the fighter no matter what would always lose also by doing so it keeps everything fair as the battle is supposed to be a battle between the classes and their capabilities not one of how long they can prep the for the battle or how long they get to dig that 1000ft hole for the fighter to push the wizard down and hope they don’t have feather fall. So yeah prep time can get weird and not only the no prep time beside the two or so exceptions makes it fair (as fair as it can be). But yeah that was a rant... So as with the necromancer yeah even without the undead army on the mere fact of having such a great vast spell list that would dwarf the fighter. So yeah the fighters say is a tough one haha.
You cannot make something deadly real with Illusory Reality. You can however make unlimited (thanks to misty visions/spell mastery) adamantine cages with no openings except ventihilation shafts that make sight outside of the box impossible (no misty step for you). Number of ways to use the time that buys you.
Answer: Mirage Arcane... but yeah you can’t make something that directly damages them but you could suffocate them crush them make them fall etc. As with the illusory Reailty just drop something big, make restraints, adamantine cages/walls and more. So like you said “Number of ways to use the time that buys you.”
**grumble grumble - it takes 1-10 minutes to don armor depending on weight - grumble grumble**. But I get it, no prep time. It is what it is. Makes necromancer look pretty dang bad, so it's funny that a 200 hp necro would still cause the fighter so many problems and put on a dominating show. That's how good the matchup is. The wizard can basically throw away their class features while the fighter is struggling to put together super specific builds that can even win at all.
You cannot make something deadly real with Illusory Reality. You can however make unlimited (thanks to misty visions/spell mastery) adamantine cages with no openings except ventihilation shafts that make sight outside of the box impossible (no misty step for you). Number of ways to use the time that buys you.
How about stuck on a pillar of stone surrounded by a lake of lava?
Oh I get it De4th. Necromancer just kept popping in my head as some weird exception because controlling an undead army is their whole thing, and keeping control is just a natural part of their morning. But, yes, no prep time for the sake of fairness. The necro can release his hordes and still dominate the fighter.
Silmakhor I'm sorry to be the debbie downer type, but Illusory Reality states you choose an object within the illusion and make it real. You could make the pillar real. And even if you could pull this off the way you describe, archers can just keep plinking away at you. Not to mention the size of the illusion would have to be quite large to make a moat of lava big enough to really act like a moat. The only illusion spells that create an illusion bigger than a 20 foot cube are Hallucinatory Terrain and Mirage Arcane, both of which take 10 minutes to cast.
Oh I get it De4th. Necromancer just kept popping in my head as some weird exception because controlling an undead army is their whole thing, and keeping control is just a natural part of their morning. But, yes, no prep time for the sake of fairness. The necro can release his hordes and still dominate the fighter.
Silmakhor I'm sorry to be the debbie downer type, but Illusory Reality states you choose an object within the illusion and make it real. You could make the pillar real. And even if you could pull this off the way you describe, archers can just keep plinking away at you. Not to mention the size of the illusion would have to be quite large to make a moat of lava big enough to really act like a moat. The only illusion spells that create an illusion bigger than a 20 foot cube are Hallucinatory Terrain and Mirage Arcane, both of which take 10 minutes to cast.
Major image would likely cover most things with the 20ft cube. Heck even the silent image which the wizard can cast at will at that point will do.
So many possibilities there... Mostly create an adamantine wall and spend the 10 mins doing something to kill the fighter.
Major Image is certainly big enough for adamantine box purposes. But for creating moats of lava like Silmakhor was mentioning? That's a dainty hop over a pothole. And yeah, silent image does the job at containing the fighter. Major Image isn't even necessary. Infinite concentration free wall spells. Sign me up.
Major Image is certainly big enough for adamantine box purposes. But for creating moats of lava like Silmakhor was mentioning? That's a dainty hop over a pothole. And yeah, silent image does the job at containing the fighter. Major Image isn't even necessary. Infinite concentration free wall spells. Sign me up.
Answer: You could Wish cast Mirage Arcane and Do whatever the Hexk you want with the terrain. As with Silent image etc, you could just make an illusion adamantine suit with no holes around the suit so you could just suffocate the fighter as they can’t move or break the suit of adamantine (but that just a thought).
There needs to be more fighter advocates i feel or else this forum will die... though tbh I think we addressed most of not all but who knows there might be a build who has a higher chance than others to win.
I have a thought: Fighter, Level 20, Eldritch Knight, Half Orc, 7 ASI’s:
15, 15, 8, 15, 8, 8 (Point Buy)
17, 16, 8, 15, 8, 8 (Half Orc)
20, 16, 8, 20, 8, 8 (ASI)
ASI: +1 Str/Int, +2 Str, +2 Int, +2 Int, Metamagic Adept (Subtle Spell, Quickened Spell), and two more from ether GWM, Mage Slayer, Sentinel, Lucky or polearm master (plus any other you can think of) but as per this build I think GWM and Mage Slayer may be best since they can get extra hits in on rare occasions.
Say this build is against the High HP wizard so Initiative isn’t so much of a problem to go first so for this experiment the EK will go first.
Equipment: Greataxe (Best for criticals), and a big cheap item that is to be dropped for cover (Dropping objects don’t cost anything so it’s free). Also as the battle starts he (before initiative has been holding the object and material components for hold person).
Round One:
EK drops X obscuring item for cover/concealment to mask the material components, casts Hold Person (Using subtle spell so the wizard can’t cast counterspell against Verbal, or somatic components as they are bypassed and the material components are out of sight therefore uncounterable), after casting Hold Person* (See Asterisks Below if the first hold person fails), the EK pulls out his Greataxe and moves within 5ft of the wizard expending his action surge making 4 attacks at advantage (Perhaps even using -5 to hit and +10 dmg), each a critical hit and as the fighter is a Half orc a single hit would be 3d12 + 5 damage (+15 if used GWM), and as he hit the wizard is affected by Eldritch Smite so his next save is at disadvantage (and it’s probably poor as the wizard builds don’t use wisdom) so he probably fails giving the EK another turn.
Round Two:
EK uses action for 4 attacks, action surge 4 attacks, bonus action attack (GWM on crit can attack again) and giving the wizard disadvantage on its next save for Hold Person (Also if you don’t wanna attack the Eldritch Knight has some spells that can help fight the wizard).
Round Three: if wizard fails again/isn’t dead the EK can attack 5 more times each still criting and giving the wizard disadvantage on it’s next save.
Round Four: Let’s assume the wizard saves at its end of turn that means the EK then gets 4-5 more attacks (although not criting and the wizard can then also cast shield or whatever).
(I’m not good at math so I probably ain’t gonna give this build it’s justice but if anyone can give the true math do show but here goes nothing) So let’s say the EK gets at least 13 of these critical attacks (discounting the extra as the wizard recovers at the end of his turn). That means he would deal (3d12 (19.5) + 5) x 13 = 318.5 damage (that’s even without the other turns or GWM). So this build could work even though it is super cheese (hahaha).
*if the hold person fails the fighter then uses his improved war magic to make one attack (as a bonus action)—on a hit—the wizards next save is at disadvantage, then goes back behind the object and casts Hold Person again (expending his action surge) using the same tactic then moves with 5ft of the wizard for next turn to try to burst down the wizard.
Please tell me if I failed the math or how I could improve this build (Please don’t try to be like “b-but the fighter can’t start with his material and object out” and as with the dropping object thing that is a rule so yeah Thai build is possible even if it is the most Min-maxing thing ever haha). I’d love to see what you guys can try to do to beat this as I super dumbed down the build (less attacks than, no GWM, etc).
Not going to go too deep into the maths as I don't have time at the moment, but with the Great Weapon Fighting fighting style each d12 rolls on average 7.3333 rather than 6.5, so that might bump up numbers slightly.
Greatsword bumps from 3.5 per die to 4.1666, or 8.3333 per two dice, if you wanted to compare damage.
A pike does 6.30 from 5.5, but if you take piercer each critical gives you an extra die on top of the critical and half-orc, for 4d10!
Food for thought, hopefully my numbers are correct.
Not going to go too deep into the maths as I don't have time at the moment, but with the Two Weapon Fighting fighting style each d12 rolls on average 7.3333 rather than 6.5, so that might bump up numbers slightly.
Greatsword bumps from 3.5 per die to 4.1666, or 8.3333 per two dice, if you wanted to compare damage.
A pike does 6.30 from 5.5, but if you take piercer each critical gives you an extra die on top of the critical and half-orc, for 4d10!
Answer: Just saying it isn’t called Two Weapon Fighting it’s called Great Weapon Fighting. Other than that the rolls look right to me. Greatsword Average for this build would be: 20.833 (21), Greataxe Average: 22, Polearm Average: 18.9 (19) but if with piercer: 25.2 (25). As with piercer you also get to be able to reroll a damage die if you want so that also would up the damage (I don’t know how to do that math). Answer: So the best weapon choice would be polearm and piercer for the best amount of damage.
Food for thought, hopefully my numbers are correct.
Answer: I think your numbers are correct and it’s not just food as the numbers have IMPROVED my build and so I say thanks my good sir and have at thee a great day!
17, 14, 8, 16, 8, 10 (Tashas to move 1 Con to Int)
20, 14, 8, 20, 8, 10 (ASI)
ASI’s: +2 Str, +2 Int, +2 Int, Piercer, Metamagic Adept (Subtle Spell, Quickened Spell), GWM and one from Mage Slayer, or Lucky (plus any other you can think of) but as per this build I think Mage Slayer may be best since it can get an extra hit on the rare occasion (when the wizard casts a spell) OR lucky to help guarantee some hits that may falter and somehow not hit the wizard.
Say this build is against a High HP (Like Dread or the High HP Chronurgist) wizard so Initiative isn’t so much of a problem to go first so for this experiment the EK will go first.
Equipment: Halberd, and a big cheap item that is to be dropped for cover (Dropping objects don’t cost anything so it’s free). Also as the battle starts he (before initiative has been holding the object and material components for hold person).
Round One:
EK drops X obscuring item for cover/concealment to mask the material components, casts Hold Person (Using subtle spell so the wizard can’t cast counterspell against Verbal, or somatic components as they are bypassed and the material components are out of sight therefore uncounterable), after casting Hold Person* (See Asterisks Below if the first hold person fails), the EK pulls out his Halberd and moves within 10ft of the wizard expending his action surge making 4 attacks at advantage (Perhaps even using -5 to hit and +10 dmg), each a critical hit and as the fighter is a Half orc with piercer a single hit would deal 4d10 (25.2) + 5 damage (+15 if used GWM). Whenever he hits the wizard, the wizard is affected by Eldritch Smite so his next save is at disadvantage (and it’s probably poor as the wizard builds don’t use wisdom) so he probably fails giving the EK another turn.
Round Two:
EK uses action for 4 attacks, action surge 4 attacks, bonus action attack (GWM on crit can attack again) and giving the wizard disadvantage on its next save for Hold Person (Also if you don’t wanna attack the Eldritch Knight has some spells that can help fight the wizard).
Round Three: if wizard fails again/isn’t dead the EK can attack 5 more times each still criting and giving the wizard disadvantage on it’s next save.
Round Four: Let’s assume the wizard saves at its end of turn that means the EK then gets 4-5 more attacks (although not criting and the wizard can then also cast shield or whatever).
So let’s say the EK gets at least 13 of these critical attacks (discounting the extra as the wizard recovers at the end of his turn). That means he would deal (4d10 (25.2) + 5) x 13 = 392.6 damage (that’s even without the other turns, GWM, and attacks available).
*if the hold person fails the fighter then uses his improved war magic to make one attack (as a bonus action)—on a hit—the wizards next save is at disadvantage (and he deals an average of 30.2), then goes back behind the object and casts Hold Person again (expending his action surge) using the same tactic then moves with 10ft of the wizard for next turn to try to burst down the wizard.
Also Davaal28 since the EK is using a 10ft reach (I realized that the wizard could/its possible that a Warcaster wizard could get a spell off) it means that he A) doesn’t expend as much movement, and B) Doesn’t risk an Attack of Opportunity.
8, 17, 14, 16, 8, 10 (Tashas: +2 Str now is +2 Dex and +1 Con is +1 Int)
8, 20, 14, 20, 8, 10 (ASI)
ASI’s: +2 Dex, +2 Int, +2 Int, Piercer (+1 Dex), Metamagic Adept (Subtle Spell, Quickened Spell), GWM (you could change this out) and one from Alert, Mage Slayer, or Lucky (plus any other you can think of) but as per this build I think Mage Slayer may be best since it can get an extra hit on the rare occasion (when the wizard casts a spell) OR lucky to help guarantee some hits that may falter and somehow not hit the wizard although if your facing a high initiative build alert would be best.
Say this build is against a High HP (Like Dread or the High HP Chronurgist) wizard so Initiative isn’t so much of a problem to go first so for this experiment the EK will go first even though this dex build can beat a high initiative build
Equipment: Rapier, and a big cheap item that is to be dropped for cover (Dropping objects don’t cost anything so it’s free). Also as the battle starts he (before initiative has been holding the object and material components for hold person).
Round One:
EK drops X obscuring item for cover/concealment to mask the material components, casts Hold Person (Using subtle spell so the wizard can’t cast counterspell against Verbal, or somatic components as they are bypassed and the material components are out of sight therefore uncounterable), after casting Hold Person* (See Asterisks Below if the first hold person fails), the EK pulls out his rapier and moves within 5ft of the wizard expending his action surge making 4 attacks at advantage, each a critical hit and as the fighter is a Half orc with piercer a single hit would deal 4d8 (18) + 5 damage + 2 damage. Whenever he hits the wizard, the wizard is affected by Eldritch Smite so his next save is at disadvantage (and it’s probably poor as the wizard builds don’t use wisdom) so he probably fails giving the EK another turn.
Round Two:
EK uses action for 4 attacks, action surge 4 attacks, bonus action attack (GWM on crit can attack again) and giving the wizard disadvantage on its next save for Hold Person (Also if you don’t wanna attack the Eldritch Knight has some spells that can help fight the wizard).
Round Three: if wizard fails again/isn’t dead the EK can attack 5 more times each still criting and giving the wizard disadvantage on it’s next save.
Round Four: Let’s assume the wizard saves at its end of turn that means the EK then gets 4-5 more attacks (although not criting and the wizard can then also cast shield or whatever).
So let’s say the EK gets at least 13 of these critical attacks (discounting the extra as the wizard recovers at the end of his turn). That means he would deal (4d8 (18) + 5 + 2) x 13 = 325 damage (that’s even without the other turns, and attacks available).
*if the hold person fails the fighter then uses his improved war magic to make one attack (as a bonus action)—on a hit—the wizards next save is at disadvantage (and he deals an average of 25), then goes back behind the object and casts Hold Person again (expending his action surge) using the same tactic then moves with 5ft of the wizard for next turn to try to burst down the wizard.
So even if a Dex build the EK fighter can beat the wizard and if the wizards is an HP/Chronurgist build the EK can still win. Also being a Dex build the fighter can also compete with the initiative of the wizard quite well even if still at a disadvantage.
Just saying there sometimes is this rock, paper, scissors aspect in these battles where the Specialized can beat the Nova, the Nova can beat the Survivor, but the Survivor can beat the Specialized so it can be weird. Like the EK can beat any Survivor build but when it meets a build made to counter it like a high wisdom, resilient wisdom, lucky and advantage against spells wizard (where that wizard would lose against any other build) it will win.
PS: I know the rock, paper, scissors example ain’t perfect but it works for the explanation.
Answer: Just saying it isn’t called Two Weapon Fighting it’s called Great Weapon Fighting. Other than that the rolls look right to me. Greatsword Average for this build would be: 20.833 (21), Greataxe Average: 22, Polearm Average: 18.9 (19) but if with piercer: 25.2 (25). As with piercer you also get to be able to reroll a damage die if you want so that also would up the damage (I don’t know how to do that math). Answer: So the best weapon choice would be polearm and piercer for the best amount of damage. Answer: I think your numbers are correct and it’s not just food as the numbers have IMPROVED my build and so I say thanks my good sir and have at thee a great day!
Ahh yep, edited to Great Weapon FIghting, not sure why I wrote two. Glad I could help.
So in conclusion... the wizard holds an overwhelming majority of the power as the adaptability of the wizard can make a build that counters/defeats any opposing fighter builds. So even though the fighter in some circumstances can defeat the wizard those times are when a specialized fighter battles a non-specialized wizard (giving the wizard a handicap) therefore the wizard is undoubtedly stronger (in all ways) than the fighter.
So in conclusion... the wizard holds an overwhelming majority of the power as the adaptability of the wizard can make a build that counters/defeats any opposing fighter builds. So even though the fighter in some circumstances can defeat the wizard those times are when a specialized fighter battles a non-specialized wizard (giving the wizard a handicap) therefore the wizard is undoubtedly stronger (in all ways) than the fighter.
I mean, let’s make this a true white room - both players have starting equipment and no rest times. That means no preparation either. So the wizard has cantrips. Easy win for any class. 😂
(I know your post is probably joking but I’ll address it as if it were a “real” post because why not).
Answer: The thing with a white room scenario is distance or more importantly the terrain. As in what is the appropriate distance between two combatants (without favouring certain races, classes etc) and the terrain conditions. As with terrain conditions it’s pretty easy to keep it at “fair” ground level by doing: all of the ground is stone (could be argued dirt or just ground), the world is an infinite plane, running away/kiting allowed, and the lighting level is ambient bright light (but not sunlight, though could be argued). As with distance you have to keep it fair to both melee and ranged combat while still making each player be able engage the enemy or flee. To determine a correct distance you must take in account multiple variables like movement speed, OA (AoO), range and more. By doing so you end up with at most 25ft (movement speed of most small races) and at least 15ft away as polearms are a thing and being within 5ft would be dumb. So the distance can be from 15-25ft of which I’d recommend doing a 20ft difference between the two combatants.
Answer: Yes as that is truly the only metric besides the gold stats (ie, average gold set for a X level player) is starting equipment. As starting equipment is acquired as part of being that class and therefore granted by that class so no half-plate/plate, magic items, potions, poisons etc.
Answer: What do you mean no rest times? If you mean they don’t get long rests (that’d be ridiculous since you be limiting all classes not to mentioning all the other ramifications). As with no prep if you take that to its extreme you wouldn’t have your armor equipped (like the shield). That’s why there is some semblance of “prep” with the players being able to have their armor up (with the special case of a wizard casting mage armor if they want).
So the wizard has cantrips. Easy win for any class. 😂
Answer: If how you put that no rest is allowed thing that means that no class would have their short or long rest abilities. Yes in that contest (even though it’d never happen) a fighter would hold the advantage.
My thoughts exactly. Fighter/2, wizard/18 would be better than either single class build at level 20 though.
Have an example build. Force a failed save against meteor swarm then lob an 8th level fireball (disintegrate does nothing on a successful save, so it's a risk against fighters). Ignoring the magic items (and other items in this build) and you can still dance around outside of Counterspell range and summon Meteor Swarms and Fireballs easily.
**grumble grumble - it takes 1-10 minutes to don armor depending on weight - grumble grumble**. But I get it, no prep time. It is what it is. Makes necromancer look pretty dang bad, so it's funny that a 200 hp necro would still cause the fighter so many problems and put on a dominating show. That's how good the matchup is. The wizard can basically throw away their class features while the fighter is struggling to put together super specific builds that can even win at all.
You cannot make something deadly real with Illusory Reality. You can however make unlimited (thanks to misty visions/spell mastery) adamantine cages with no openings except ventihilation shafts that make sight outside of the box impossible (no misty step for you). Number of ways to use the time that buys you.
Answer: As per the start of this forum the reason the wizard gets mage armor is that the fact that the fighter gets to equip his armor. You can verify this by looking back near the start of the posts. As such the fighter can equip his armor and the wizard can cast mage armor.
Answer: Well if we added prep time even if it were just a turn the fighter no matter what would always lose also by doing so it keeps everything fair as the battle is supposed to be a battle between the classes and their capabilities not one of how long they can prep the for the battle or how long they get to dig that 1000ft hole for the fighter to push the wizard down and hope they don’t have feather fall. So yeah prep time can get weird and not only the no prep time beside the two or so exceptions makes it fair (as fair as it can be). But yeah that was a rant... So as with the necromancer yeah even without the undead army on the mere fact of having such a great vast spell list that would dwarf the fighter. So yeah the fighters say is a tough one haha.
Answer: Mirage Arcane... but yeah you can’t make something that directly damages them but you could suffocate them crush them make them fall etc. As with the illusory Reailty just drop something big, make restraints, adamantine cages/walls and more. So like you said “Number of ways to use the time that buys you.”
How about stuck on a pillar of stone surrounded by a lake of lava?
Oh I get it De4th. Necromancer just kept popping in my head as some weird exception because controlling an undead army is their whole thing, and keeping control is just a natural part of their morning. But, yes, no prep time for the sake of fairness. The necro can release his hordes and still dominate the fighter.
Silmakhor I'm sorry to be the debbie downer type, but Illusory Reality states you choose an object within the illusion and make it real. You could make the pillar real. And even if you could pull this off the way you describe, archers can just keep plinking away at you. Not to mention the size of the illusion would have to be quite large to make a moat of lava big enough to really act like a moat. The only illusion spells that create an illusion bigger than a 20 foot cube are Hallucinatory Terrain and Mirage Arcane, both of which take 10 minutes to cast.
Major image would likely cover most things with the 20ft cube. Heck even the silent image which the wizard can cast at will at that point will do.
So many possibilities there... Mostly create an adamantine wall and spend the 10 mins doing something to kill the fighter.
Major Image is certainly big enough for adamantine box purposes. But for creating moats of lava like Silmakhor was mentioning? That's a dainty hop over a pothole. And yeah, silent image does the job at containing the fighter. Major Image isn't even necessary. Infinite concentration free wall spells. Sign me up.
Answer: You could Wish cast Mirage Arcane and Do whatever the Hexk you want with the terrain. As with Silent image etc, you could just make an illusion adamantine suit with no holes around the suit so you could just suffocate the fighter as they can’t move or break the suit of adamantine (but that just a thought).
There needs to be more fighter advocates i feel or else this forum will die... though tbh I think we addressed most of not all but who knows there might be a build who has a higher chance than others to win.
I have a thought:
Fighter, Level 20, Eldritch Knight, Half Orc, 7 ASI’s:
15, 15, 8, 15, 8, 8 (Point Buy)
17, 16, 8, 15, 8, 8 (Half Orc)
20, 16, 8, 20, 8, 8 (ASI)
ASI: +1 Str/Int, +2 Str, +2 Int, +2 Int, Metamagic Adept (Subtle Spell, Quickened Spell), and two more from ether GWM, Mage Slayer, Sentinel, Lucky or polearm master (plus any other you can think of) but as per this build I think GWM and Mage Slayer may be best since they can get extra hits in on rare occasions.
Say this build is against the High HP wizard so Initiative isn’t so much of a problem to go first so for this experiment the EK will go first.
Equipment: Greataxe (Best for criticals), and a big cheap item that is to be dropped for cover (Dropping objects don’t cost anything so it’s free). Also as the battle starts he (before initiative has been holding the object and material components for hold person).
Round One:
EK drops X obscuring item for cover/concealment to mask the material components, casts Hold Person (Using subtle spell so the wizard can’t cast counterspell against Verbal, or somatic components as they are bypassed and the material components are out of sight therefore uncounterable), after casting Hold Person* (See Asterisks Below if the first hold person fails), the EK pulls out his Greataxe and moves within 5ft of the wizard expending his action surge making 4 attacks at advantage (Perhaps even using -5 to hit and +10 dmg), each a critical hit and as the fighter is a Half orc a single hit would be 3d12 + 5 damage (+15 if used GWM), and as he hit the wizard is affected by Eldritch Smite so his next save is at disadvantage (and it’s probably poor as the wizard builds don’t use wisdom) so he probably fails giving the EK another turn.
Round Two:
EK uses action for 4 attacks, action surge 4 attacks, bonus action attack (GWM on crit can attack again) and giving the wizard disadvantage on its next save for Hold Person (Also if you don’t wanna attack the Eldritch Knight has some spells that can help fight the wizard).
Round Three: if wizard fails again/isn’t dead the EK can attack 5 more times each still criting and giving the wizard disadvantage on it’s next save.
Round Four: Let’s assume the wizard saves at its end of turn that means the EK then gets 4-5 more attacks (although not criting and the wizard can then also cast shield or whatever).
(I’m not good at math so I probably ain’t gonna give this build it’s justice but if anyone can give the true math do show but here goes nothing) So let’s say the EK gets at least 13 of these critical attacks (discounting the extra as the wizard recovers at the end of his turn).
That means he would deal (3d12 (19.5) + 5) x 13 = 318.5 damage (that’s even without the other turns or GWM). So this build could work even though it is super cheese (hahaha).
*if the hold person fails the fighter then uses his improved war magic to make one attack (as a bonus action)—on a hit—the wizards next save is at disadvantage, then goes back behind the object and casts Hold Person again (expending his action surge) using the same tactic then moves with 5ft of the wizard for next turn to try to burst down the wizard.
Please tell me if I failed the math or how I could improve this build (Please don’t try to be like “b-but the fighter can’t start with his material and object out” and as with the dropping object thing that is a rule so yeah Thai build is possible even if it is the most Min-maxing thing ever haha). I’d love to see what you guys can try to do to beat this as I super dumbed down the build (less attacks than, no GWM, etc).
Not going to go too deep into the maths as I don't have time at the moment, but with the Great Weapon Fighting fighting style each d12 rolls on average 7.3333 rather than 6.5, so that might bump up numbers slightly.
Greatsword bumps from 3.5 per die to 4.1666, or 8.3333 per two dice, if you wanted to compare damage.
A pike does 6.30 from 5.5, but if you take piercer each critical gives you an extra die on top of the critical and half-orc, for 4d10!
Food for thought, hopefully my numbers are correct.
Answer: Just saying it isn’t called Two Weapon Fighting it’s called Great Weapon Fighting. Other than that the rolls look right to me. Greatsword Average for this build would be: 20.833 (21), Greataxe Average: 22, Polearm Average: 18.9 (19) but if with piercer: 25.2 (25). As with piercer you also get to be able to reroll a damage die if you want so that also would up the damage (I don’t know how to do that math). Answer: So the best weapon choice would be polearm and piercer for the best amount of damage.
Answer: I think your numbers are correct and it’s not just food as the numbers have IMPROVED my build and so I say thanks my good sir and have at thee a great day!
Now with the revision with Dravaal28 the build is:
Fighter (Fighting Style: Great Weapon Fighting), Level 20, Eldritch Knight, Half Orc, 7 ASI’s:
15, 14, 8, 15, 8, 10 (Point Buy)
17, 14, 8, 16, 8, 10 (Tashas to move 1 Con to Int)
20, 14, 8, 20, 8, 10 (ASI)
ASI’s: +2 Str, +2 Int, +2 Int, Piercer, Metamagic Adept (Subtle Spell, Quickened Spell), GWM and one from Mage Slayer, or Lucky (plus any other you can think of) but as per this build I think Mage Slayer may be best since it can get an extra hit on the rare occasion (when the wizard casts a spell) OR lucky to help guarantee some hits that may falter and somehow not hit the wizard.
Say this build is against a High HP (Like Dread or the High HP Chronurgist) wizard so Initiative isn’t so much of a problem to go first so for this experiment the EK will go first.
Equipment: Halberd, and a big cheap item that is to be dropped for cover (Dropping objects don’t cost anything so it’s free). Also as the battle starts he (before initiative has been holding the object and material components for hold person).
Round One:
EK drops X obscuring item for cover/concealment to mask the material components, casts Hold Person (Using subtle spell so the wizard can’t cast counterspell against Verbal, or somatic components as they are bypassed and the material components are out of sight therefore uncounterable), after casting Hold Person* (See Asterisks Below if the first hold person fails), the EK pulls out his Halberd and moves within 10ft of the wizard expending his action surge making 4 attacks at advantage (Perhaps even using -5 to hit and +10 dmg), each a critical hit and as the fighter is a Half orc with piercer a single hit would deal 4d10 (25.2) + 5 damage (+15 if used GWM). Whenever he hits the wizard, the wizard is affected by Eldritch Smite so his next save is at disadvantage (and it’s probably poor as the wizard builds don’t use wisdom) so he probably fails giving the EK another turn.
Round Two:
EK uses action for 4 attacks, action surge 4 attacks, bonus action attack (GWM on crit can attack again) and giving the wizard disadvantage on its next save for Hold Person (Also if you don’t wanna attack the Eldritch Knight has some spells that can help fight the wizard).
Round Three: if wizard fails again/isn’t dead the EK can attack 5 more times each still criting and giving the wizard disadvantage on it’s next save.
Round Four: Let’s assume the wizard saves at its end of turn that means the EK then gets 4-5 more attacks (although not criting and the wizard can then also cast shield or whatever).
So let’s say the EK gets at least 13 of these critical attacks (discounting the extra as the wizard recovers at the end of his turn).
That means he would deal (4d10 (25.2) + 5) x 13 = 392.6 damage (that’s even without the other turns, GWM, and attacks available).
*if the hold person fails the fighter then uses his improved war magic to make one attack (as a bonus action)—on a hit—the wizards next save is at disadvantage (and he deals an average of 30.2), then goes back behind the object and casts Hold Person again (expending his action surge) using the same tactic then moves with 10ft of the wizard for next turn to try to burst down the wizard.
Also Davaal28 since the EK is using a 10ft reach (I realized that the wizard could/its possible that a Warcaster wizard could get a spell off) it means that he A) doesn’t expend as much movement, and B) Doesn’t risk an Attack of Opportunity.
Now how about a Dex/Initiative Fighter Build:
Fighter (Fighting Style: Dueling), Level 20, Eldritch Knight, Half Orc, 7 ASI’s:
8, 15, 14, 15, 8, 10 (Point Buy)
8, 17, 14, 16, 8, 10 (Tashas: +2 Str now is +2 Dex and +1 Con is +1 Int)
8, 20, 14, 20, 8, 10 (ASI)
ASI’s: +2 Dex, +2 Int, +2 Int, Piercer (+1 Dex), Metamagic Adept (Subtle Spell, Quickened Spell), GWM (you could change this out) and one from Alert, Mage Slayer, or Lucky (plus any other you can think of) but as per this build I think Mage Slayer may be best since it can get an extra hit on the rare occasion (when the wizard casts a spell) OR lucky to help guarantee some hits that may falter and somehow not hit the wizard although if your facing a high initiative build alert would be best.
Say this build is against a High HP (Like Dread or the High HP Chronurgist) wizard so Initiative isn’t so much of a problem to go first so for this experiment the EK will go first even though this dex build can beat a high initiative build
Equipment: Rapier, and a big cheap item that is to be dropped for cover (Dropping objects don’t cost anything so it’s free). Also as the battle starts he (before initiative has been holding the object and material components for hold person).
Round One:
EK drops X obscuring item for cover/concealment to mask the material components, casts Hold Person (Using subtle spell so the wizard can’t cast counterspell against Verbal, or somatic components as they are bypassed and the material components are out of sight therefore uncounterable), after casting Hold Person* (See Asterisks Below if the first hold person fails), the EK pulls out his rapier and moves within 5ft of the wizard expending his action surge making 4 attacks at advantage, each a critical hit and as the fighter is a Half orc with piercer a single hit would deal 4d8 (18) + 5 damage + 2 damage. Whenever he hits the wizard, the wizard is affected by Eldritch Smite so his next save is at disadvantage (and it’s probably poor as the wizard builds don’t use wisdom) so he probably fails giving the EK another turn.
Round Two:
EK uses action for 4 attacks, action surge 4 attacks, bonus action attack (GWM on crit can attack again) and giving the wizard disadvantage on its next save for Hold Person (Also if you don’t wanna attack the Eldritch Knight has some spells that can help fight the wizard).
Round Three: if wizard fails again/isn’t dead the EK can attack 5 more times each still criting and giving the wizard disadvantage on it’s next save.
Round Four: Let’s assume the wizard saves at its end of turn that means the EK then gets 4-5 more attacks (although not criting and the wizard can then also cast shield or whatever).
So let’s say the EK gets at least 13 of these critical attacks (discounting the extra as the wizard recovers at the end of his turn).
That means he would deal (4d8 (18) + 5 + 2) x 13 = 325 damage (that’s even without the other turns, and attacks available).
*if the hold person fails the fighter then uses his improved war magic to make one attack (as a bonus action)—on a hit—the wizards next save is at disadvantage (and he deals an average of 25), then goes back behind the object and casts Hold Person again (expending his action surge) using the same tactic then moves with 5ft of the wizard for next turn to try to burst down the wizard.
So even if a Dex build the EK fighter can beat the wizard and if the wizards is an HP/Chronurgist build the EK can still win. Also being a Dex build the fighter can also compete with the initiative of the wizard quite well even if still at a disadvantage.
Just saying there sometimes is this rock, paper, scissors aspect in these battles where the Specialized can beat the Nova, the Nova can beat the Survivor, but the Survivor can beat the Specialized so it can be weird. Like the EK can beat any Survivor build but when it meets a build made to counter it like a high wisdom, resilient wisdom, lucky and advantage against spells wizard (where that wizard would lose against any other build) it will win.
PS: I know the rock, paper, scissors example ain’t perfect but it works for the explanation.
Ahh yep, edited to Great Weapon FIghting, not sure why I wrote two.
Glad I could help.
So in conclusion... the wizard holds an overwhelming majority of the power as the adaptability of the wizard can make a build that counters/defeats any opposing fighter builds. So even though the fighter in some circumstances can defeat the wizard those times are when a specialized fighter battles a non-specialized wizard (giving the wizard a handicap) therefore the wizard is undoubtedly stronger (in all ways) than the fighter.
I mean, let’s make this a true white room - both players have starting equipment and no rest times. That means no preparation either. So the wizard has cantrips. Easy win for any class. 😂
(I know your post is probably joking but I’ll address it as if it were a “real” post because why not).
Answer: The thing with a white room scenario is distance or more importantly the terrain. As in what is the appropriate distance between two combatants (without favouring certain races, classes etc) and the terrain conditions. As with terrain conditions it’s pretty easy to keep it at “fair” ground level by doing: all of the ground is stone (could be argued dirt or just ground), the world is an infinite plane, running away/kiting allowed, and the lighting level is ambient bright light (but not sunlight, though could be argued). As with distance you have to keep it fair to both melee and ranged combat while still making each player be able engage the enemy or flee. To determine a correct distance you must take in account multiple variables like movement speed, OA (AoO), range and more. By doing so you end up with at most 25ft (movement speed of most small races) and at least 15ft away as polearms are a thing and being within 5ft would be dumb. So the distance can be from 15-25ft of which I’d recommend doing a 20ft difference between the two combatants.
Answer: Yes as that is truly the only metric besides the gold stats (ie, average gold set for a X level player) is starting equipment. As starting equipment is acquired as part of being that class and therefore granted by that class so no half-plate/plate, magic items, potions, poisons etc.
Answer: What do you mean no rest times? If you mean they don’t get long rests (that’d be ridiculous since you be limiting all classes not to mentioning all the other ramifications). As with no prep if you take that to its extreme you wouldn’t have your armor equipped (like the shield). That’s why there is some semblance of “prep” with the players being able to have their armor up (with the special case of a wizard casting mage armor if they want).
Answer: If how you put that no rest is allowed thing that means that no class would have their short or long rest abilities. Yes in that contest (even though it’d never happen) a fighter would hold the advantage.
Funny how you would have to literally take everything away from the wizard for the fighter to finally have the advantage...lol
My thoughts exactly. Fighter/2, wizard/18 would be better than either single class build at level 20 though.
Have an example build. Force a failed save against meteor swarm then lob an 8th level fireball (disintegrate does nothing on a successful save, so it's a risk against fighters). Ignoring the magic items (and other items in this build) and you can still dance around outside of Counterspell range and summon Meteor Swarms and Fireballs easily.
But this is completely off-topic so ignore this.
Chilling kinda vibe.