Funny how you would have to literally take everything away from the wizard for the fighter to finally have the advantage...lol
Answer: But even then it would be a hard fight (just hear me out) as not only would the wizard have no spells, no arcane recovery etc but the fighter would have no action surge, indomitable etc. So knowing this a wizard could as they know their spells would be horrible (as you would “only” have cantrips). But even then a wizard would have Spell Mastery and therefore be able to cast a 1st and 2nd level spell (perhaps shield and misty step) at will (unaffected by the no short/long rest). Additionally, their are some subclasses that would still work... ish like Chronurgist (Temporal Awareness, Convergent Future), Illusionist ( Illusion Savant, Malleable Illusions, Illusory Reality), and etc. As with say the Chronurgist (and Spell Mastery) you could Hold Person lock the the fighter (or otherwise) as the fighter would have no indomitable (though perhaps lucky then shiv him or build a melee build by prioritizing Con and Dex for survivability, AC, and damage. So a melee build is possible with any subclass. Or you could do an illusion wizard and grab up like silent image (or otherwise) with Spell Mastery and just like make an adamantine box and trap the fighter then stab at him as he is helpless. So even though there would be no resources from long/short rests a wizard could actually just auto win so I was wrong about the fighter holding advantage in this bout as the wizard could just get like a bit of Con (Not even like needing that much) and then he could just survive the max amount of burst damage a no long/short rest fighter could deal out. So yeah... wizard still wins.
Funny how you would have to literally take everything away from the wizard for the fighter to finally have the advantage...lol
You know what else is funny? How most level 20 wizard builds involve a 2 level dip into fighter.
Answer: The reason is as OptimusGrimus pointed out there isn’t much for a wizard past 18th level except a feat and capstone of which the capstone is pretty bad tbh. With a 2 level dip into fighter you get proficiencies and ACTION SURGE.
Funny how you would have to literally take everything away from the wizard for the fighter to finally have the advantage...lol
You know what else is funny? How most level 20 wizard builds involve a 2 level dip into fighter.
Answer: The reason is as OptimusGrimus pointed out there isn’t much for a wizard past 18th level except a feat and capstone of which the capstone is pretty bad tbh. With a 2 level dip into fighter you get proficiencies and ACTION SURGE.
Yes, but you would do better to start with the fighter levels and then go with wizard. That way you can wear heavy armour.
Funny how you would have to literally take everything away from the wizard for the fighter to finally have the advantage...lol
You know what else is funny? How most level 20 wizard builds involve a 2 level dip into fighter.
Answer: The reason is as OptimusGrimus pointed out there isn’t much for a wizard past 18th level except a feat and capstone of which the capstone is pretty bad tbh. With a 2 level dip into fighter you get proficiencies and ACTION SURGE.
Yes, but you would do better to start with the fighter levels and then go with wizard. That way you can wear heavy armour.
Yeah and also you get CON saving throw proficiency so you don't need to spend a feat on resilient CON which is pretty good seeing as you get one less feat.
Funny how you would have to literally take everything away from the wizard for the fighter to finally have the advantage...lol
You know what else is funny? How most level 20 wizard builds involve a 2 level dip into fighter.
Answer: The reason is as OptimusGrimus pointed out there isn’t much for a wizard past 18th level except a feat and capstone of which the capstone is pretty bad tbh. With a 2 level dip into fighter you get proficiencies and ACTION SURGE.
Yes, but you would do better to start with the fighter levels and then go with wizard. That way you can wear heavy armour.
Maybe on paper, but in practice putting off your Wizard levels is a huge tradeoff. Dipping for armor (and con proficiency) on a wizard is overvalued and the opportunity cost always seems to get shrugged off. Wizard is perfectly playable without extra armor proficiencies and unlocking spells at the levels they were intended is really, really good.
Funny how you would have to literally take everything away from the wizard for the fighter to finally have the advantage...lol
You know what else is funny? How most level 20 wizard builds involve a 2 level dip into fighter.
Answer: The reason is as OptimusGrimus pointed out there isn’t much for a wizard past 18th level except a feat and capstone of which the capstone is pretty bad tbh. With a 2 level dip into fighter you get proficiencies and ACTION SURGE.
Yes, but you would do better to start with the fighter levels and then go with wizard. That way you can wear heavy armour.
Maybe on paper, but in practice putting off your Wizard levels is a huge tradeoff. Dipping for armor (and con proficiency) on a wizard is overvalued and the opportunity cost always seems to get shrugged off. Wizard is perfectly playable without extra armor proficiencies and unlocking spells at the levels they were intended is really, really good.
If I was given a choice between 2 fireballs in one turn or a vitriolic sphere, I know what I would choose.
Yeah sure if you want to simplify the equation down to blast spells then your trade looks pretty good. You're ignoring Arcane Eye, Banishment, Charm Monster, Dimension Door, Evard's Black Tentacles, Sickening Radiance and other excellent fourth level spells that are much more than just /damage!/, as well as the fact that spell slots are precious resources at lower and mid levels and action surging two is not always the best way to allocate resources (especially because the wizard 5/fighter 2 has less third level slots than the wizard 7). Not to mention this wizard 5/fighter 2 unlocks fireball and every other third level spell later than the single class wizard. That's a big deal.
Again, when it comes to actual gameplay from level 1, the trades one is making are really big when considering this dip. It can certainly be a fine build, but it is not clearly the better way to do things and I would argue is significantly worse than being a fully leveled wizard in a tier 1/tier 2 campaign.
I tend not to use Arcane Eye and instead just have Find Familiar as a spider that can fit through all the same gaps. Naturally, virtually all multiclasses are a little too costly at low levels.
But when building a straight 20th level character, then the sensible thing to do is treat things as if you started out as a fighter, took another fighter level and then went wizard the rest of the way.
not too invested in this thread and has not read all the post yet, but it seems like the first few responses were really underestimating the amount of hit points a 20th level character will have and how difficult it would be for either party to completely drop the other to 0 hit points in a single round, short of possibly getting really lucky with a time stop spell and stacking action economy that way with 5 consecutive turns taken at once or the fighter getting a few critical hits in and/ or dumping all their battle master manuvers or psi dice in a single turn, even a wizard with a humble con of 12 is going to have 102 hit points at that level (using fixed hit points per level), a far cry from the extremely fragile wizards of editions past using d4 hit dice.
Some person will probably have brought this up over the course of the discussion but with the spell mastery feature at 18th level a wizard could potentially cast shield at-will, something that will effectively grant them a permanent +5 bonus to armor class as long as they are willing to not use their reaction for anything (as the spell lasts for 1 round, it will apply to all the opponent's attacks, not just one, this combined with mage armor and a non-negative dexterity modifier ought to grant you an respectable armor class of 18 or higher, about on-par with plate armor).
Another potential tool in the wizard's arsenal might be jim's magic missile + hold person if the wizard puts themselves within 5 feet of the paralyzed fighter, of course its hard to keep a person paralyzed that long especially with indomidable at their side (even if i think indomidable kinda sucks) and i am not shure 15d4 dmg + 5d4 for each level past 1st with a 1/400 chance of each missile you fire causing all of them to blow up in your face for no damage dealt is worth the spell slots
leaning towards wizard, but of course any combatant of this level is gonna have an unreasonable degree of power and both classes are going to vary a lot in power depending on subclass, prepared spells, fighting style, magic items, and what they did with their abillity score increases
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Using their best spells, the wizard can deal an average of 140 damage with a meteor swarm if we're going with a straight blaster route. Forcecage is something fighters have no counter for (counterspell an EK's counterspell) and then melee builds will be suffering (use the option where spells can pass through). Range builds will be fustrated by the variety of aoe effects that can be forced on them (a fog cloud so they don't know where to shoot to hit the wizard for example). Just hurl fireballs in there as you see fit, because you know they will be in the aoe for the next hour.
You don't even need to expend more than one 7th level spell slot if you make a small enough cage to cast shatter over and over (with spell mastery on fog cloud and shatter). In an hours time the fighter will definitely be dead and you can move on to the next fighter (for four more times - most adventuring days will assume a short rest at about this point).
You might expend a few 3rd and 4th level spell slots if you come up against an eldritch knight, but that won't stop you.
There's always dimension door to get you away for a long rest and regain those four 7th-9th level slots you have at 20th level.
Forcecage is something fighters have no counter for (counterspell an EK's counterspell) and then melee builds will be suffering (use the option where spells can pass through).
duergar rune knight using the giant's might feature and the innate enlarge spell, you cannot use the spell on somebody if they physically will not fit within the area given,
and besides it will do absolutely nil against archers
and you cannot use your reaction to counterspell a counterspell if the fighter already cast shocking grasp on you
or an eldrich knight could grapple you using the attack action and use their action surge to cast silence, making the act of casting a spell with a verbal component impossible and thus meaning that you can never cast forcecage in the first place (or well silence is not a wizard spell apparently, but possibly if there is some expanded spell list) also grappling in general, if i am already close enough to do that you cannot possibly cast forcecage between us and thus you cannot possibly use that strategy
**** it if i just grab myself a knife and [redacted] that wizard tounge of yours you would not be able to do any verbal components, problem solved
plus an eldrich knight could potentially just escape using misty step (yes it requires a sucessful charisma saving throw, but you have the indomidable feature and there is not much else for you to do but to use all your spell slots on misty step),
an arcane archer using seeking arrow and piercing arrow could get past the cage and deal enough damage to remove the cage altogether, and a strength focused fighter with the mage slayer feat could try hurling a few javelins at the wizard in hopes of it breaking concentration.
also if the fighter in question was an champion fighter with a constitution score of 20, spamming shatter would also not work since they regain 10 hit points each turn and have a +11 bonus to constiution saving throws, he is likely to out-heal the damage dealt by the spell and thus you will get nowhere
also the echo knight can just attack you with one of their echoes or use one of their echoes to teleport out of there, and unlike the other matt subclasses it did in fact appear in a official book so it can still be discussed (same caveat as with the eldrich knight of teleporting a lot, what else are you going to do)
and an psi warrior can just try to find a sufficiently large rock and crush you under it with telekinesis
oh shit a psi warrior could also use that very same spell to snatch away the material component for forcecage, preventing you from casting the spell at all, without your fancy little ruby dust you are completely worthless (unless you are using wish to replicate the effects of forcecage)
an psi warrior can use their abillity to move objects in order to try and shove some item down the throat of the wizard, thus preventing all material components and thus preventing you from casting wish, forcecage and most spells that arent absorb elements and counterspell
greater invisibillity, cannot trap me in your stupid cage if you don't know where i am, idiot
a rune knight could use the stone rune to incapacitate you, or an eldrich knight could try to incapacitate you with tasha's hideous laughter, both of whom would instantly end your concentration, alltough this relies on a wizard failing a wisdom saving throw
Also you cannot concentrate on two spells at once, so casting fog cloud would mean that the forcecage spell immedeatly ends, and choosing fog cloud and shatter as your at-will spells is completely worthless when there are much more busted spells in this scenario, but the point is that the strategy you claimed had no counter for fighters has in fact quite a few counters for fighters
There's always dimension door to get you away for a long rest and regain those four 7th-9th level slots you have at 20th level.
meaning that the fighter has time to finish a long rest and regain all lost hit points, putting you back at square one again, plus a fighter could easily take a brief short rest to regain all their limited use class features, track you down and kill you in your sleep while you are still trying to regain spell slots, thus making you completely defensless if all you relied on this entire time was forcecage
Using their best spells, the wizard can deal an average of 140 damage with a meteor swarm if we're going with a straight blaster route.
Something that is still less than the hit point total of a fighter with a constiution score of 14, at 164, and it could always get even bigger for say a hill dwarf with the toughness feat or if you just have a slightly bigger constiution score at 16 or you got all three, something that would total a 244, yes it would be a good chunk of health, in fact most of it for the first example, but it would not be an instakill and you could always restore yourself closer to full health with second wind
So in conclusion... the wizard holds an overwhelming majority of the power as the adaptability of the wizard can make a build that counters/defeats any opposing fighter builds. So even though the fighter in some circumstances can defeat the wizard those times are when a specialized fighter battles a non-specialized wizard (giving the wizard a handicap) therefore the wizard is undoubtedly stronger (in all ways) than the fighter.
I mean, let’s make this a true white room - both players have starting equipment and no rest times. That means no preparation either. So the wizard has cantrips. Easy win for any class. 😂
the wizard also has spell mastery granting them a 1st and 2nd level spell at-will and any subclass features, making this not as impossible a scenario as you might think, an abjuration wizard could spam shield to avoid getting hit while getting two hit points for their arcane ward each round (and +5 to armor class against all attacks) while still having an action and bonus action to use for offensive purposes such as with scorching ray or shatter or an cantrip or something, or you could use magic missile at-will and thus never need to worry about accuracy.
The Maze/Simulacrum/Wall of Force/Sickening Radiance combo works very well on most fighters.
Even the INT based ones would have a decent chance of failing the Int ABILITY check to leave the maze and since it's not a save you cant use Indomitable.
You wish for a sim and get one in an action and have it cast a Wall of Force when you cast Sickening Radiance.
Once you cast SR the fighter comes back and it's microwave time. They will have to make 100 saves and only need to fail 6 to die from exhaustion. They hit a point of exhaustion that they have DIS on saves and it's a spiral from there.
An Eldtrich Knight can survive this with Misty Step but that's about it for counters.
The Maze/Simulacrum/Wall of Force/Sickening Radiance combo works very well on most fighters.
Even the INT based ones would have a decent chance of failing the Int ABILITY check to leave the maze and since it's not a save you cant use Indomitable.
You wish for a sim and get one in an action and have it cast a Wall of Force when you cast Sickening Radiance.
Once you cast SR the fighter comes back and it's microwave time. They will have to make 100 saves and only need to fail 6 to die from exhaustion. They hit a point of exhaustion that they have DIS on saves and it's a spiral from there.
An Eldtrich Knight can survive this with Misty Step but that's about it for counters.
A Yuan-ti Fighter can survive hundreds of rounds of this. Easily. I already described this for you.
The Maze/Simulacrum/Wall of Force/Sickening Radiance combo works very well on most fighters.
Even the INT based ones would have a decent chance of failing the Int ABILITY check to leave the maze and since it's not a save you cant use Indomitable.
You wish for a sim and get one in an action and have it cast a Wall of Force when you cast Sickening Radiance.
Once you cast SR the fighter comes back and it's microwave time. They will have to make 100 saves and only need to fail 6 to die from exhaustion. They hit a point of exhaustion that they have DIS on saves and it's a spiral from there.
An Eldtrich Knight can survive this with Misty Step but that's about it for counters.
you cannot cast sickening radiance inside your maze (i assume you are using this not for the trap itself but in order to dissapear the fighter long enough for you to get some distance), also with proficiency in constiution saving throws and indomidable you will start out pretty well, of course with six levels of exhaustion you die and that will happen quickly if nothing is done (i guess a satyr or yuan-ti with max con and lucky might manage to suceed on 95 out of 100 saving throws since you would only need to roll a 8 or higher if you use all indomidable uses before you fail your third save, but nobody is gonna play that build specifically), echo knights have acess to teleportation and will be out of there instantly, if you have a means of casting tasha's hideous laughter or you are a rune knight with the stone rune you can incapacitate the wizard or their simulacrum if they are not already out of range, or a arcane archer with the mage slayer feat could try piercing arrow since it is not a spell (not likely that they are even within range at this point, but worth a shot at least, pun intended), a psi-knight could try to steal the wizards material components from their hands prior to any spells being cast if they use telekineisis and the ready action, but this requires them to know that this particular strategy is comming and prepare accordingly, and also for some reason the maze spell does not require you to have a miniature carved maze carved from jade or something as a material component (a clear oversight from wizards of the coast) so it will be a useless countermeasure there and thus a person can just maze ya', wait for you to come back and then instantly cast wall of force and just not give you any chance to nab your component.
So yeah unlike that other guy's plan, there really are no subclasses who can deal with this combo/ plan it except for echo knight and eldrich knight, an drow character with the drow high magic feat could potentially use their innate dispel magic ability to get rid of the sickening radiance (only for the wizard to then immedeatly cast it again) and an charchter with the fey touched feat or an eladrin could teleport out, but as long as the wizard and his similacrum has more spell slots and try to stay out of range of any of your abillties that might target them you are ****ed
(for the record, not trying to find counters for this strategy becuase i think fighters have a fair chance, but merely since magical arms-races are fun)
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It was in jest previously, but it was meant to draw criticism on these white room examples of “who beats who”. Deathknight is completely right - terrain, scenario, *literally everything* determines the outcome of any battle.
But yet, we have these endless threads of people justifying their ideas (even going so far as stalking my old posts to try and make a point) for no realistic reason.
And “white rooms” require variables - unfortunately, everybody draws the line of variables somewhere. Starting equipment? Prep? Magic items? Terrain? Flying? Distance?
I mean, you can adjust the variables *endlessly* to make it work in your favor. So maybe instead of gloating “LOL Wizard beats Fighter”... maybe you should spend more time understanding the variables involved and less time writing prose about how you think your variables are best.
I like the creativity here and new ways to come up with solutions to a certain set of variables. But gloating? Nah, we don’t need that.
So in conclusion... the wizard holds an overwhelming majority of the power as the adaptability of the wizard can make a build that counters/defeats any opposing fighter builds. So even though the fighter in some circumstances can defeat the wizard those times are when a specialized fighter battles a non-specialized wizard (giving the wizard a handicap) therefore the wizard is undoubtedly stronger (in all ways) than the fighter.
I mean, let’s make this a true white room - both players have starting equipment and no rest times. That means no preparation either. So the wizard has cantrips. Easy win for any class. 😂
the wizard also has spell mastery granting them a 1st and 2nd level spell at-will and any subclass features, making this not as impossible a scenario as you might think, an abjuration wizard could spam shield to avoid getting hit while getting two hit points for their arcane ward each round (and +5 to armor class against all attacks) while still having an action and bonus action to use for offensive purposes such as with scorching ray or shatter or an cantrip or something, or you could use magic missile at-will and thus never need to worry about accuracy.
Oooh, I like this. In a no-prep scenario, what would your Wizard look like?
In true no-prep fashion, the Fighter wouldn’t have armor worn or shield donned either. Maybe Misty Step as your 2nd level? Would that provide enough distance? Aggressive (Orc) could be a counter to that...
Answer: But even then it would be a hard fight (just hear me out) as not only would the wizard have no spells, no arcane recovery etc but the fighter would have no action surge, indomitable etc. So knowing this a wizard could as they know their spells would be horrible (as you would “only” have cantrips). But even then a wizard would have Spell Mastery and therefore be able to cast a 1st and 2nd level spell (perhaps shield and misty step) at will (unaffected by the no short/long rest). Additionally, their are some subclasses that would still work... ish like Chronurgist (Temporal Awareness, Convergent Future), Illusionist ( Illusion Savant, Malleable Illusions, Illusory Reality), and etc. As with say the Chronurgist (and Spell Mastery) you could Hold Person lock the the fighter (or otherwise) as the fighter would have no indomitable (though perhaps lucky then shiv him or build a melee build by prioritizing Con and Dex for survivability, AC, and damage. So a melee build is possible with any subclass. Or you could do an illusion wizard and grab up like silent image (or otherwise) with Spell Mastery and just like make an adamantine box and trap the fighter then stab at him as he is helpless. So even though there would be no resources from long/short rests a wizard could actually just auto win so I was wrong about the fighter holding advantage in this bout as the wizard could just get like a bit of Con (Not even like needing that much) and then he could just survive the max amount of burst damage a no long/short rest fighter could deal out. So yeah... wizard still wins.
You know what else is funny? How most level 20 wizard builds involve a 2 level dip into fighter.
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I guess it's the idea that the two classes are truly optimal when they are multiclassed with each other/other classes.
Most optimal builds for both classes involve multiclassing. Action surge is a useful ability for any class and will normally be a good dip.
Not going to argue here. There is definitely not a lot of reasons to go past level 18 in wizard other than to get a feat at level 19.
Other than that action surge is a very very good add-on to a full caster
Answer: The reason is as OptimusGrimus pointed out there isn’t much for a wizard past 18th level except a feat and capstone of which the capstone is pretty bad tbh. With a 2 level dip into fighter you get proficiencies and ACTION SURGE.
Yes, but you would do better to start with the fighter levels and then go with wizard. That way you can wear heavy armour.
Chilling kinda vibe.
Yeah and also you get CON saving throw proficiency so you don't need to spend a feat on resilient CON which is pretty good seeing as you get one less feat.
Maybe on paper, but in practice putting off your Wizard levels is a huge tradeoff. Dipping for armor (and con proficiency) on a wizard is overvalued and the opportunity cost always seems to get shrugged off. Wizard is perfectly playable without extra armor proficiencies and unlocking spells at the levels they were intended is really, really good.
If I was given a choice between 2 fireballs in one turn or a vitriolic sphere, I know what I would choose.
Chilling kinda vibe.
Yeah sure if you want to simplify the equation down to blast spells then your trade looks pretty good. You're ignoring Arcane Eye, Banishment, Charm Monster, Dimension Door, Evard's Black Tentacles, Sickening Radiance and other excellent fourth level spells that are much more than just /damage!/, as well as the fact that spell slots are precious resources at lower and mid levels and action surging two is not always the best way to allocate resources (especially because the wizard 5/fighter 2 has less third level slots than the wizard 7). Not to mention this wizard 5/fighter 2 unlocks fireball and every other third level spell later than the single class wizard. That's a big deal.
Again, when it comes to actual gameplay from level 1, the trades one is making are really big when considering this dip. It can certainly be a fine build, but it is not clearly the better way to do things and I would argue is significantly worse than being a fully leveled wizard in a tier 1/tier 2 campaign.
I tend not to use Arcane Eye and instead just have Find Familiar as a spider that can fit through all the same gaps. Naturally, virtually all multiclasses are a little too costly at low levels.
But when building a straight 20th level character, then the sensible thing to do is treat things as if you started out as a fighter, took another fighter level and then went wizard the rest of the way.
Chilling kinda vibe.
not too invested in this thread and has not read all the post yet, but it seems like the first few responses were really underestimating the amount of hit points a 20th level character will have and how difficult it would be for either party to completely drop the other to 0 hit points in a single round, short of possibly getting really lucky with a time stop spell and stacking action economy that way with 5 consecutive turns taken at once or the fighter getting a few critical hits in and/ or dumping all their battle master manuvers or psi dice in a single turn, even a wizard with a humble con of 12 is going to have 102 hit points at that level (using fixed hit points per level), a far cry from the extremely fragile wizards of editions past using d4 hit dice.
Some person will probably have brought this up over the course of the discussion but with the spell mastery feature at 18th level a wizard could potentially cast shield at-will, something that will effectively grant them a permanent +5 bonus to armor class as long as they are willing to not use their reaction for anything (as the spell lasts for 1 round, it will apply to all the opponent's attacks, not just one, this combined with mage armor and a non-negative dexterity modifier ought to grant you an respectable armor class of 18 or higher, about on-par with plate armor).
Another potential tool in the wizard's arsenal might be jim's magic missile + hold person if the wizard puts themselves within 5 feet of the paralyzed fighter, of course its hard to keep a person paralyzed that long especially with indomidable at their side (even if i think indomidable kinda sucks) and i am not shure 15d4 dmg + 5d4 for each level past 1st with a 1/400 chance of each missile you fire causing all of them to blow up in your face for no damage dealt is worth the spell slots
leaning towards wizard, but of course any combatant of this level is gonna have an unreasonable degree of power and both classes are going to vary a lot in power depending on subclass, prepared spells, fighting style, magic items, and what they did with their abillity score increases
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Using their best spells, the wizard can deal an average of 140 damage with a meteor swarm if we're going with a straight blaster route. Forcecage is something fighters have no counter for (counterspell an EK's counterspell) and then melee builds will be suffering (use the option where spells can pass through). Range builds will be fustrated by the variety of aoe effects that can be forced on them (a fog cloud so they don't know where to shoot to hit the wizard for example). Just hurl fireballs in there as you see fit, because you know they will be in the aoe for the next hour.
You don't even need to expend more than one 7th level spell slot if you make a small enough cage to cast shatter over and over (with spell mastery on fog cloud and shatter). In an hours time the fighter will definitely be dead and you can move on to the next fighter (for four more times - most adventuring days will assume a short rest at about this point).
You might expend a few 3rd and 4th level spell slots if you come up against an eldritch knight, but that won't stop you.
There's always dimension door to get you away for a long rest and regain those four 7th-9th level slots you have at 20th level.
Chilling kinda vibe.
also grappling in general, if i am already close enough to do that you cannot possibly cast forcecage between us and thus you cannot possibly use that strategy
Also you cannot concentrate on two spells at once, so casting fog cloud would mean that the forcecage spell immedeatly ends, and choosing fog cloud and shatter as your at-will spells is completely worthless when there are much more busted spells in this scenario, but the point is that the strategy you claimed had no counter for fighters has in fact quite a few counters for fighters
meaning that the fighter has time to finish a long rest and regain all lost hit points, putting you back at square one again, plus a fighter could easily take a brief short rest to regain all their limited use class features, track you down and kill you in your sleep while you are still trying to regain spell slots, thus making you completely defensless if all you relied on this entire time was forcecage
Something that is still less than the hit point total of a fighter with a constiution score of 14, at 164, and it could always get even bigger for say a hill dwarf with the toughness feat or if you just have a slightly bigger constiution score at 16 or you got all three, something that would total a 244, yes it would be a good chunk of health, in fact most of it for the first example, but it would not be an instakill and you could always restore yourself closer to full health with second wind
the wizard also has spell mastery granting them a 1st and 2nd level spell at-will and any subclass features, making this not as impossible a scenario as you might think, an abjuration wizard could spam shield to avoid getting hit while getting two hit points for their arcane ward each round (and +5 to armor class against all attacks) while still having an action and bonus action to use for offensive purposes such as with scorching ray or shatter or an cantrip or something, or you could use magic missile at-will and thus never need to worry about accuracy.
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The Maze/Simulacrum/Wall of Force/Sickening Radiance combo works very well on most fighters.
Even the INT based ones would have a decent chance of failing the Int ABILITY check to leave the maze and since it's not a save you cant use Indomitable.
You wish for a sim and get one in an action and have it cast a Wall of Force when you cast Sickening Radiance.
Once you cast SR the fighter comes back and it's microwave time. They will have to make 100 saves and only need to fail 6 to die from exhaustion. They hit a point of exhaustion that they have DIS on saves and it's a spiral from there.
An Eldtrich Knight can survive this with Misty Step but that's about it for counters.
Lol, funny that we deny your wizard prep time (which the Fighter doesn’t need) and suddenly it’s unfair.
It’s literally in the game design for a reason.
A Yuan-ti Fighter can survive hundreds of rounds of this. Easily. I already described this for you.
you cannot cast sickening radiance inside your maze (i assume you are using this not for the trap itself but in order to dissapear the fighter long enough for you to get some distance), also with proficiency in constiution saving throws and indomidable you will start out pretty well, of course with six levels of exhaustion you die and that will happen quickly if nothing is done (i guess a satyr or yuan-ti with max con and lucky might manage to suceed on 95 out of 100 saving throws since you would only need to roll a 8 or higher if you use all indomidable uses before you fail your third save, but nobody is gonna play that build specifically), echo knights have acess to teleportation and will be out of there instantly, if you have a means of casting tasha's hideous laughter or you are a rune knight with the stone rune you can incapacitate the wizard or their simulacrum if they are not already out of range, or a arcane archer with the mage slayer feat could try piercing arrow since it is not a spell (not likely that they are even within range at this point, but worth a shot at least, pun intended), a psi-knight could try to steal the wizards material components from their hands prior to any spells being cast if they use telekineisis and the ready action, but this requires them to know that this particular strategy is comming and prepare accordingly, and also for some reason the maze spell does not require you to have a miniature carved maze carved from jade or something as a material component (a clear oversight from wizards of the coast) so it will be a useless countermeasure there and thus a person can just maze ya', wait for you to come back and then instantly cast wall of force and just not give you any chance to nab your component.
So yeah unlike that other guy's plan, there really are no subclasses who can deal with this combo/ plan it except for echo knight and eldrich knight, an drow character with the drow high magic feat could potentially use their innate dispel magic ability to get rid of the sickening radiance (only for the wizard to then immedeatly cast it again) and an charchter with the fey touched feat or an eladrin could teleport out, but as long as the wizard and his similacrum has more spell slots and try to stay out of range of any of your abillties that might target them you are ****ed
(for the record, not trying to find counters for this strategy becuase i think fighters have a fair chance, but merely since magical arms-races are fun)
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
It was in jest previously, but it was meant to draw criticism on these white room examples of “who beats who”. Deathknight is completely right - terrain, scenario, *literally everything* determines the outcome of any battle.
But yet, we have these endless threads of people justifying their ideas (even going so far as stalking my old posts to try and make a point) for no realistic reason.
And “white rooms” require variables - unfortunately, everybody draws the line of variables somewhere. Starting equipment? Prep? Magic items? Terrain? Flying? Distance?
I mean, you can adjust the variables *endlessly* to make it work in your favor. So maybe instead of gloating “LOL Wizard beats Fighter”... maybe you should spend more time understanding the variables involved and less time writing prose about how you think your variables are best.
I like the creativity here and new ways to come up with solutions to a certain set of variables. But gloating? Nah, we don’t need that.
Oooh, I like this. In a no-prep scenario, what would your Wizard look like?
In true no-prep fashion, the Fighter wouldn’t have armor worn or shield donned either. Maybe Misty Step as your 2nd level? Would that provide enough distance? Aggressive (Orc) could be a counter to that...