Funny how you would have to literally take everything away from the wizard for the fighter to finally have the advantage...lol
Lol, funny that we deny your wizard prep time (which the Fighter doesn’t need) and suddenly it’s unfair.
It’s literally in the game design for a reason.
hey um what the **** is your definition of "prep time" exactly? You defined a wizard without it as one who only has access to cantrips, so either:
you are under the false belief that a wizard has to prepare new spells at the end of each long rest or else have no new spells prepared (false, a wizard who does not take the time to prepare new spells at the end of a long rest will keep the spells they have prepared beforehand, there are probably wizards who have managed to not touch their spellbooks for weeks while still casting spells)
or you define "no prep time" as abilities that recharge on a long rest or short rest basis being unavailable (something that would affect fighters as well, otherwise they do not get to use indomitable or action surge or second wind ever, and a lot of their subclasses rely on limited resources as well so battlemasters, psi-warriors, rune knights, cavaliers, samurai and arcane archers would all be ****ED)
either way, wizards would still also have access to a single 1st level spell and a single 2nd level spell at-will without needing to spend a spell slot thanks to spell mastery, and they still have their subclass, and so as a result they will still be somewhat of a match to a fighter, able to spam shield as they please (particularly useful for a abjuration wizard) and then yse their bonus action for flaming sphere and their action for any cantrip that deals damage
(apologies for the excessive swearing)
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
The Maze/Simulacrum/Wall of Force/Sickening Radiance combo works very well on most fighters.
Even the INT based ones would have a decent chance of failing the Int ABILITY check to leave the maze and since it's not a save you cant use Indomitable.
You wish for a sim and get one in an action and have it cast a Wall of Force when you cast Sickening Radiance.
Once you cast SR the fighter comes back and it's microwave time. They will have to make 100 saves and only need to fail 6 to die from exhaustion. They hit a point of exhaustion that they have DIS on saves and it's a spiral from there.
An Eldtrich Knight can survive this with Misty Step but that's about it for counters.
you cannot cast sickening radiance inside your maze (i assume you are using this not for the trap itself but in order to dissapear the fighter long enough for you to get some distance), also with proficiency in constiution saving throws and indomidable you will start out pretty well, of course with six levels of exhaustion you die and that will happen quickly if nothing is done (i guess a satyr or yuan-ti with max con and lucky might manage to suceed on 95 out of 100 saving throws since you would only need to roll a 8 or higher if you use all indomidable uses before you fail your third save, but nobody is gonna play that build specifically), echo knights have acess to teleportation and will be out of there instantly, if you have a means of casting tasha's hideous laughter or you are a rune knight with the stone rune you can incapacitate the wizard or their simulacrum if they are not already out of range, or a arcane archer with the mage slayer feat could try piercing arrow since it is not a spell (not likely that they are even within range at this point, but worth a shot at least, pun intended), a psi-knight could try to steal the wizards material components from their hands prior to any spells being cast if they use telekineisis and the ready action, but this requires them to know that this particular strategy is comming and prepare accordingly, and also for some reason the maze spell does not require you to have a miniature carved maze carved from jade or something as a material component (a clear oversight from wizards of the coast) so it will be a useless countermeasure there and thus a person can just maze ya', wait for you to come back and then instantly cast wall of force and just not give you any chance to nab your component.
So yeah unlike that other guy's plan, there really are no subclasses who can deal with this combo/ plan it except for echo knight and eldrich knight, an drow character with the drow high magic feat could potentially use their innate dispel magic ability to get rid of the sickening radiance (only for the wizard to then immedeatly cast it again) and an charchter with the fey touched feat or an eladrin could teleport out, but as long as the wizard and his similacrum has more spell slots and try to stay out of range of any of your abillties that might target them you are ****ed
(for the record, not trying to find counters for this strategy becuase i think fighters have a fair chance, but merely since magical arms-races are fun)
Nah it's all good! This has been a thinking exercise from the get go.
I had completely forgotten about echo Knight and your right they got a decent shot too.
You nailed it with the Maze... It's just so you have time to wish for your Simulacrum and get them to ready a spell while they are lost in the maze. They come back from maze and are instantly in the microwave. You are right about the races too as they have the best shot.
Overall it was the strategy I thought of that dealt the least with damage as the fighter is tanky boi.
The Maze/Simulacrum/Wall of Force/Sickening Radiance combo works very well on most fighters.
Even the INT based ones would have a decent chance of failing the Int ABILITY check to leave the maze and since it's not a save you cant use Indomitable.
You wish for a sim and get one in an action and have it cast a Wall of Force when you cast Sickening Radiance.
Once you cast SR the fighter comes back and it's microwave time. They will have to make 100 saves and only need to fail 6 to die from exhaustion. They hit a point of exhaustion that they have DIS on saves and it's a spiral from there.
An Eldtrich Knight can survive this with Misty Step but that's about it for counters.
you cannot cast sickening radiance inside your maze (i assume you are using this not for the trap itself but in order to dissapear the fighter long enough for you to get some distance), also with proficiency in constiution saving throws and indomidable you will start out pretty well, of course with six levels of exhaustion you die and that will happen quickly if nothing is done (i guess a satyr or yuan-ti with max con and lucky might manage to suceed on 95 out of 100 saving throws since you would only need to roll a 8 or higher if you use all indomidable uses before you fail your third save, but nobody is gonna play that build specifically), echo knights have acess to teleportation and will be out of there instantly, if you have a means of casting tasha's hideous laughter or you are a rune knight with the stone rune you can incapacitate the wizard or their simulacrum if they are not already out of range, or a arcane archer with the mage slayer feat could try piercing arrow since it is not a spell (not likely that they are even within range at this point, but worth a shot at least, pun intended), a psi-knight could try to steal the wizards material components from their hands prior to any spells being cast if they use telekineisis and the ready action, but this requires them to know that this particular strategy is comming and prepare accordingly, and also for some reason the maze spell does not require you to have a miniature carved maze carved from jade or something as a material component (a clear oversight from wizards of the coast) so it will be a useless countermeasure there and thus a person can just maze ya', wait for you to come back and then instantly cast wall of force and just not give you any chance to nab your component.
So yeah unlike that other guy's plan, there really are no subclasses who can deal with this combo/ plan it except for echo knight and eldrich knight, an drow character with the drow high magic feat could potentially use their innate dispel magic ability to get rid of the sickening radiance (only for the wizard to then immedeatly cast it again) and an charchter with the fey touched feat or an eladrin could teleport out, but as long as the wizard and his similacrum has more spell slots and try to stay out of range of any of your abillties that might target them you are ****ed
(for the record, not trying to find counters for this strategy becuase i think fighters have a fair chance, but merely since magical arms-races are fun)
Nah it's all good! This has been a thinking exercise from the get go.
I had completely forgotten about echo Knight and your right they got a decent shot too.
You nailed it with the Maze... It's just so you have time to wish for your Simulacrum and get them to ready a spell while they are lost in the maze. They come back from maze and are instantly in the microwave. You are right about the races too as they have the best shot.
Overall it was the strategy I thought of that dealt the least with damage as the fighter is tanky boi.
is the similacrum supposed to assume the statistics you have after you finish casting, or your statistics at a time when you are fully rested? this could be important since that will determine if a similacrum made via wish will have a 9th level spell slot or not, and thus it will determine if the similacrum can in turn use wish itself to replicate wall of force, and thus if trying to steal the wizard's component pouch with telekinesis prior to getting trapped in the maze will do you any good
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
The Maze/Simulacrum/Wall of Force/Sickening Radiance combo works very well on most fighters.
Even the INT based ones would have a decent chance of failing the Int ABILITY check to leave the maze and since it's not a save you cant use Indomitable.
You wish for a sim and get one in an action and have it cast a Wall of Force when you cast Sickening Radiance.
Once you cast SR the fighter comes back and it's microwave time. They will have to make 100 saves and only need to fail 6 to die from exhaustion. They hit a point of exhaustion that they have DIS on saves and it's a spiral from there.
An Eldtrich Knight can survive this with Misty Step but that's about it for counters.
you cannot cast sickening radiance inside your maze (i assume you are using this not for the trap itself but in order to dissapear the fighter long enough for you to get some distance), also with proficiency in constiution saving throws and indomidable you will start out pretty well, of course with six levels of exhaustion you die and that will happen quickly if nothing is done (i guess a satyr or yuan-ti with max con and lucky might manage to suceed on 95 out of 100 saving throws since you would only need to roll a 8 or higher if you use all indomidable uses before you fail your third save, but nobody is gonna play that build specifically), echo knights have acess to teleportation and will be out of there instantly, if you have a means of casting tasha's hideous laughter or you are a rune knight with the stone rune you can incapacitate the wizard or their simulacrum if they are not already out of range, or a arcane archer with the mage slayer feat could try piercing arrow since it is not a spell (not likely that they are even within range at this point, but worth a shot at least, pun intended), a psi-knight could try to steal the wizards material components from their hands prior to any spells being cast if they use telekineisis and the ready action, but this requires them to know that this particular strategy is comming and prepare accordingly, and also for some reason the maze spell does not require you to have a miniature carved maze carved from jade or something as a material component (a clear oversight from wizards of the coast) so it will be a useless countermeasure there and thus a person can just maze ya', wait for you to come back and then instantly cast wall of force and just not give you any chance to nab your component.
So yeah unlike that other guy's plan, there really are no subclasses who can deal with this combo/ plan it except for echo knight and eldrich knight, an drow character with the drow high magic feat could potentially use their innate dispel magic ability to get rid of the sickening radiance (only for the wizard to then immedeatly cast it again) and an charchter with the fey touched feat or an eladrin could teleport out, but as long as the wizard and his similacrum has more spell slots and try to stay out of range of any of your abillties that might target them you are ****ed
(for the record, not trying to find counters for this strategy becuase i think fighters have a fair chance, but merely since magical arms-races are fun)
Nah it's all good! This has been a thinking exercise from the get go.
I had completely forgotten about echo Knight and your right they got a decent shot too.
You nailed it with the Maze... It's just so you have time to wish for your Simulacrum and get them to ready a spell while they are lost in the maze. They come back from maze and are instantly in the microwave. You are right about the races too as they have the best shot.
Overall it was the strategy I thought of that dealt the least with damage as the fighter is tanky boi.
is the similacrum supposed to assume the statistics you have after you finish casting, or your statistics at a time when you are fully rested? this could be important since that will determine if a similacrum made via wish will have a 9th level spell slot or not, and thus it will determine if the similacrum can in turn use wish itself to replicate wall of force, and thus if trying to steal the wizard's component pouch with telekinesis prior to getting trapped in the maze will do you any good
Fair point. My idea was the wizard has more than 1 as they could potentially afford them.
Funny how you would have to literally take everything away from the wizard for the fighter to finally have the advantage...lol
Lol, funny that we deny your wizard prep time (which the Fighter doesn’t need) and suddenly it’s unfair.
It’s literally in the game design for a reason.
hey um what the **** is your definition of "prep time" exactly? You defined a wizard without it as one who only has access to cantrips, so either:
you are under the false belief that a wizard has to prepare new spells at the end of each long rest or else have no new spells prepared (false, a wizard who does not take the time to prepare new spells at the end of a long rest will keep the spells they have prepared beforehand, there are probably wizards who have managed to not touch their spellbooks for weeks while still casting spells)
or you define "no prep time" as abilities that recharge on a long rest or short rest basis being unavailable (something that would affect fighters as well, otherwise they do not get to use indomitable or action surge or second wind ever, and a lot of their subclasses rely on limited resources as well so battlemasters, psi-warriors, rune knights, cavaliers, samurai and arcane archers would all be ****ED)
either way, wizards would still also have access to a single 1st level spell and a single 2nd level spell at-will without needing to spend a spell slot thanks to spell mastery, and they still have their subclass, and so as a result they will still be somewhat of a match to a fighter, able to spam shield as they please (particularly useful for a abjuration wizard) and then yse their bonus action for flaming sphere and their action for any cantrip that deals damage
(apologies for the excessive swearing)
A long ********* rest.
”Learning Spells of 1st Level and Higher
Each time you gain a wizard level, you can add two wizard spells of your choice to your spellbook for free. Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots, as shown on the Wizard table. On your adventures, you might find other spells that you can add to your spellbook (see the “Your Spellbook” sidebar).”
So, without a long rest you have a lot of spells in your book, but preparing a NEW list of prepared spells requires time (as per the entry when changing a list of spells prepared). In this case, you have your Prepared spells from level 1 and that’s it.
And if you think flaming sphere and a Cantrip and shield will outlast the damage of almost any fighter, is disingenuous. You either have no Dex, and shield would be useless, no Con, and you’d get whacked in a few rounds and lose concentration easily on that sphere...
But then again, this draws more laughable argumentation about these insanely ridiculous examples that people want to bring up.
Oh, and let me apologize for my swearing too - apparently you’re frustrated and somehow feel necessary to swear on your posts and I thought I’d just pretend to go off the rails too.
Aaaaaaaand before we get the *typical* response of “that’s unfair to my wizard!”....
This is coming from the same thread where I’m a level 20 fighter with no magic items at all, and this is somehow a real world example of how wizards are OP.
So go ahead and keep arguing these unrealistic scenarios, but I hope you know how silly it sounds.
Dude it's one thing to say no magic items and it's another to say the Wizard literally has no spells prepared.
It seems the only way you can get a fighter to even have a chance is to take all spellcasting from the wizard away.
It's pretty telling with how one sided this fight really is if that's the case.
Also if you want to go down the magic item route then you would have to give them to the wizard which ends very very poorly for the fighter as there is straight ******* stupid good items for casters.
You take offense to the fighter not having magic items but seem to think it's ok to completely restrict the Wizard from having like 90% of it's class features which is... Funny.
Funny how you would have to literally take everything away from the wizard for the fighter to finally have the advantage...lol
Lol, funny that we deny your wizard prep time (which the Fighter doesn’t need) and suddenly it’s unfair.
It’s literally in the game design for a reason.
hey um what the **** is your definition of "prep time" exactly? You defined a wizard without it as one who only has access to cantrips, so either:
you are under the false belief that a wizard has to prepare new spells at the end of each long rest or else have no new spells prepared (false, a wizard who does not take the time to prepare new spells at the end of a long rest will keep the spells they have prepared beforehand, there are probably wizards who have managed to not touch their spellbooks for weeks while still casting spells)
or you define "no prep time" as abilities that recharge on a long rest or short rest basis being unavailable (something that would affect fighters as well, otherwise they do not get to use indomitable or action surge or second wind ever, and a lot of their subclasses rely on limited resources as well so battlemasters, psi-warriors, rune knights, cavaliers, samurai and arcane archers would all be ****ED)
either way, wizards would still also have access to a single 1st level spell and a single 2nd level spell at-will without needing to spend a spell slot thanks to spell mastery, and they still have their subclass, and so as a result they will still be somewhat of a match to a fighter, able to spam shield as they please (particularly useful for a abjuration wizard) and then yse their bonus action for flaming sphere and their action for any cantrip that deals damage
(apologies for the excessive swearing)
A long *****ing* rest.
”Learning Spells of 1st Level and Higher
Each time you gain a wizard level, you can add two wizard spells of your choice to your spellbook for free. Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots, as shown on the Wizard table. On your adventures, you might find other spells that you can add to your spellbook (see the “Your Spellbook” sidebar).”
So, without a long rest you have a lot of spells in your book, but preparing a NEW list of prepared spells requires time (as per the entry when changing a list of spells prepared). In this case, you have your Prepared spells from level 1 and that’s it.
you will still have prepared spells from character creation, even if your wizard was spontaineusly generated from the ether at 20th level, the rules say "You prepare the list of wizard spells that are available for you to cast. To do so, choose a number of wizard spells from your spellbook equal to your Intelligence modifier + your wizard level (minimum of one spell). The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots.", it talks about changing the list of spells you have prepared after a long rest, but you never needed to have finished a long rest in your entire life to have prepared spells, you would still have a number of 1st level spells equal to 1 + your initial int mod
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
One way I would go about this as a wizard is using suggestion repeatedly to say something like "Count as many blades of grass on the ground as you can and you will be greatly rewarded" or something to that effect then get away since there is nothing saying you must remain in range to keep concentrating for 8 hours. Run to a secure location and whenever you are ready to take a long rest to get spells back then proceed to fight fighter.
Obviously, this is not applicable in a white room scenario but I thought it might be a fun workaround to this scenario. It does also assume failed saving throws against suggestion which should be easier since fighter doesn't have indomitable but still: luck of the dice exists.
Obviously there is also the matter of the stuff mentioned by other people about this, I just thought this would be a nice strategy if this wasn't in a white room scenario where they are literally in an arena
Funny how you would have to literally take everything away from the wizard for the fighter to finally have the advantage...lol
Lol, funny that we deny your wizard prep time (which the Fighter doesn’t need) and suddenly it’s unfair.
It’s literally in the game design for a reason.
hey um what the **** is your definition of "prep time" exactly? You defined a wizard without it as one who only has access to cantrips, so either:
you are under the false belief that a wizard has to prepare new spells at the end of each long rest or else have no new spells prepared (false, a wizard who does not take the time to prepare new spells at the end of a long rest will keep the spells they have prepared beforehand, there are probably wizards who have managed to not touch their spellbooks for weeks while still casting spells)
or you define "no prep time" as abilities that recharge on a long rest or short rest basis being unavailable (something that would affect fighters as well, otherwise they do not get to use indomitable or action surge or second wind ever, and a lot of their subclasses rely on limited resources as well so battlemasters, psi-warriors, rune knights, cavaliers, samurai and arcane archers would all be ****ED)
either way, wizards would still also have access to a single 1st level spell and a single 2nd level spell at-will without needing to spend a spell slot thanks to spell mastery, and they still have their subclass, and so as a result they will still be somewhat of a match to a fighter, able to spam shield as they please (particularly useful for a abjuration wizard) and then yse their bonus action for flaming sphere and their action for any cantrip that deals damage
(apologies for the excessive swearing)
A long *****ing* rest.
”Learning Spells of 1st Level and Higher
Each time you gain a wizard level, you can add two wizard spells of your choice to your spellbook for free. Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots, as shown on the Wizard table. On your adventures, you might find other spells that you can add to your spellbook (see the “Your Spellbook” sidebar).”
So, without a long rest you have a lot of spells in your book, but preparing a NEW list of prepared spells requires time (as per the entry when changing a list of spells prepared). In this case, you have your Prepared spells from level 1 and that’s it.
you will still have prepared spells from character creation, even if your wizard was spontaineusly generated from the ether at 20th level, the rules say "You prepare the list of wizard spells that are available for you to cast. To do so, choose a number of wizard spells from your spellbook equal to your Intelligence modifier + your wizard level (minimum of one spell). The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots.", it talks about changing the list of spells you have prepared after a long rest, but you never needed to have finished a long rest in your entire life to have prepared spells, you would still have a number of 1st level spells equal to 1 + your initial int mod
I like having seen this (once polite civil interesting conversation) devolve into a battle where there is no long and/or short rest for some reason and where people don’t do there homework or if they do miss out somethings (of course there are some civil people left but eh).
Otherwise this conversation is about a level 20 Fighter vs a level 20 Wizard not about if you rid them of their abilities and competence to see who wins. In all honesty I like the thought being put into the conversations and if someone puts out that a fighter (in the no rest format) can beat a wizard I’d have to still disagree.
I was definitely keeping up with the thread. Guess I forgot to actually type anything.
Pretty sure the best races for EK are Yuan-ti and Satyr (what a shock). But I do like your choice of Half-Orc for the extra damage on those auto-crits quite a bit. The EK seems like the only subclass that can afford to lose initiative thanks mostly to Counterspell backed up by subtle metamagic, so I think it's worth building for maximum resiliency and leaving the initiative game to all the other fighters sitting on their thumbs hoping and praying every die roll is in their favor. I'd probably leave Alert out and rely on high dex and Lucky to win initiative a decent percentage of the time. Also I think a sharpshooter build is the way to go. Melee fighters struggle with so many more problems against the wizard.
I suspect the 20 Wizard can kill the 20 Fighter with just Magic Missile and an escape spell that puts him/her a good distance away from the chance of melee. Archer would probably have the best chance for a fighter.
I suspect the 20 Wizard can kill the 20 Fighter with just Magic Missile and an escape spell that puts him/her a good distance away from the chance of melee.
So like Spell mastery Magic missile and say Misty step... but that wouldn’t work because of bonus action spell rules so you would have to do cantrip Misty step. But you could then just dimension door away and then kite... but tbh that build wouldn’t be that great as the spell slot consumption (Even with the Magic Missile). So yeah it could work but not a recommended build especially when a wizard would have much better spells to use.
Archer would probably have the best chance for a fighter.
I don’t know about that even with my AAA build it almost didn’t make it with just damage and when I was being very generous on the all hit damage and more plus it was under a super duper min max build that took longer to make than anticipated and required oversight and a small revision to merely inch over the finish line. As with sharpshooter it’s akin to GWM and when you use SS you get a -5 to hit of which can be detrimental. Although when you look at the EK it gets easy consistent HUGE damage with a good chance to kill the wizard (Per say the Dread build) and that was using the most conservative outcome within reason so as with an archer build I don’t see it to be a realistic choice against a wizard.
Pretty sure the best races for EK are Yuan-ti and Satyr (what a shock).
Yeah Satyr is pretty strong (that is an understatement) as both Fey, and Magical Resistance are amazing (Although Fey in many campaigns can be deterimental as certain buff spells may not work and resurrection spells like I think Animate Dead needs to be Humanoid) in their own way (not so much Magic Resistance as it is just great). The Half-Orc did the extra damage so I put it as the race.
But I do like your choice of Half-Orc for the extra damage on those auto-crits quite a bit.
Yes the Half-Orc for that extra damage is great as it makes sure that even if you do somehow miss it doesn’t impact much as your damage is already so immense.
The EK seems like the only subclass that can afford to lose initiative thanks mostly to Counterspell backed up by subtle metamagic, so I think it's worth building for maximum resiliency and leaving the initiative game to all the other fighters sitting on their thumbs hoping and praying every die roll is in their favor.
As with EK and subtle spell remember a wizard can pick it up too! And with initiative a wizard who wins will win (having Subtle Spell) because of timestop, demiplane (entering), then dispelling the Demiplane for infinite prep time or just planeshift (if allowed to know an already made demiplane) he can just win therefore a EK still must acquire a high initiative.
I'd probably leave Alert out and rely on high dex and Lucky to win initiative a decent percentage of the time.
Well yes Alert can be put aside for the Dex build (like the rapier build) but since if the wizard wins initiative he wins the battle so you sometimes must put some more stuff into winning initiative (if the wizard is initiative focused).
Also I think a sharpshooter build is the way to go.
Ehhhh I don’t think as (like I said to Torvald99) that with my AAA build it was hard pressed to even inch past the large hit pool of the Dread build so I’d doubt that. Although if you can make/find a fighter archer build which can relatively beat the wizard quite easily do tell I’d love to see!
Melee fighters struggle with so many more problems against the wizard.
I don’t see what the problems would be so can you tell me. The first one that comes to mind is distance but that is easily fixed by the fact of being fair and referring to the white room I prescribed previously.
If I missed something/didn’t address something do tell.
I suspect the 20 Wizard can kill the 20 Fighter with just Magic Missile and an escape spell that puts him/her a good distance away from the chance of melee.
So like Spell mastery Magic missile and say Misty step... but that wouldn’t work because of bonus action spell rules so you would have to do cantrip Misty step. But you could then just dimension door away and then kite... but tbh that build wouldn’t be that great as the spell slot consumption (Even with the Magic Missile). So yeah it could work but not a recommended build especially when a wizard would have much better spells to use
obiously no, what he was suggesting was probably something more like fly + casting magic missile with spell slots or dimension door + magic missile with spell slots
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
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hey um what the **** is your definition of "prep time" exactly? You defined a wizard without it as one who only has access to cantrips, so either:
either way, wizards would still also have access to a single 1st level spell and a single 2nd level spell at-will without needing to spend a spell slot thanks to spell mastery, and they still have their subclass, and so as a result they will still be somewhat of a match to a fighter, able to spam shield as they please (particularly useful for a abjuration wizard) and then yse their bonus action for flaming sphere and their action for any cantrip that deals damage
(apologies for the excessive swearing)
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Nah it's all good! This has been a thinking exercise from the get go.
I had completely forgotten about echo Knight and your right they got a decent shot too.
You nailed it with the Maze... It's just so you have time to wish for your Simulacrum and get them to ready a spell while they are lost in the maze. They come back from maze and are instantly in the microwave. You are right about the races too as they have the best shot.
Overall it was the strategy I thought of that dealt the least with damage as the fighter is tanky boi.
is the similacrum supposed to assume the statistics you have after you finish casting, or your statistics at a time when you are fully rested? this could be important since that will determine if a similacrum made via wish will have a 9th level spell slot or not, and thus it will determine if the similacrum can in turn use wish itself to replicate wall of force, and thus if trying to steal the wizard's component pouch with telekinesis prior to getting trapped in the maze will do you any good
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Fair point. My idea was the wizard has more than 1 as they could potentially afford them.
The simulacrum is a snapshot copy at the time you are done casting.
So if you use Wish to cast Simulacrum, your copy does not have a 9th level spell slot.
A long ********* rest.
”Learning Spells of 1st Level and Higher
Each time you gain a wizard level, you can add two wizard spells of your choice to your spellbook for free. Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots, as shown on the Wizard table. On your adventures, you might find other spells that you can add to your spellbook (see the “Your Spellbook” sidebar).”
So, without a long rest you have a lot of spells in your book, but preparing a NEW list of prepared spells requires time (as per the entry when changing a list of spells prepared). In this case, you have your Prepared spells from level 1 and that’s it.
And if you think flaming sphere and a Cantrip and shield will outlast the damage of almost any fighter, is disingenuous. You either have no Dex, and shield would be useless, no Con, and you’d get whacked in a few rounds and lose concentration easily on that sphere...
But then again, this draws more laughable argumentation about these insanely ridiculous examples that people want to bring up.
Oh, and let me apologize for my swearing too - apparently you’re frustrated and somehow feel necessary to swear on your posts and I thought I’d just pretend to go off the rails too.
Aaaaaaaand before we get the *typical* response of “that’s unfair to my wizard!”....
This is coming from the same thread where I’m a level 20 fighter with no magic items at all, and this is somehow a real world example of how wizards are OP.
So go ahead and keep arguing these unrealistic scenarios, but I hope you know how silly it sounds.
Dude it's one thing to say no magic items and it's another to say the Wizard literally has no spells prepared.
It seems the only way you can get a fighter to even have a chance is to take all spellcasting from the wizard away.
It's pretty telling with how one sided this fight really is if that's the case.
Also if you want to go down the magic item route then you would have to give them to the wizard which ends very very poorly for the fighter as there is straight ******* stupid good items for casters.
You take offense to the fighter not having magic items but seem to think it's ok to completely restrict the Wizard from having like 90% of it's class features which is... Funny.
you will still have prepared spells from character creation, even if your wizard was spontaineusly generated from the ether at 20th level, the rules say "You prepare the list of wizard spells that are available for you to cast. To do so, choose a number of wizard spells from your spellbook equal to your Intelligence modifier + your wizard level (minimum of one spell). The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots.", it talks about changing the list of spells you have prepared after a long rest, but you never needed to have finished a long rest in your entire life to have prepared spells, you would still have a number of 1st level spells equal to 1 + your initial int mod
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
One way I would go about this as a wizard is using suggestion repeatedly to say something like "Count as many blades of grass on the ground as you can and you will be greatly rewarded" or something to that effect then get away since there is nothing saying you must remain in range to keep concentrating for 8 hours. Run to a secure location and whenever you are ready to take a long rest to get spells back then proceed to fight fighter.
Obviously, this is not applicable in a white room scenario but I thought it might be a fun workaround to this scenario. It does also assume failed saving throws against suggestion which should be easier since fighter doesn't have indomitable but still: luck of the dice exists.
Obviously there is also the matter of the stuff mentioned by other people about this, I just thought this would be a nice strategy if this wasn't in a white room scenario where they are literally in an arena
There's also that....
I like having seen this (once polite civil interesting conversation) devolve into a battle where there is no long and/or short rest for some reason and where people don’t do there homework or if they do miss out somethings (of course there are some civil people left but eh).
Otherwise this conversation is about a level 20 Fighter vs a level 20 Wizard not about if you rid them of their abilities and competence to see who wins. In all honesty I like the thought being put into the conversations and if someone puts out that a fighter (in the no rest format) can beat a wizard I’d have to still disagree.
I’ve killed it. I have killed the forum who knew.
I don't think so De4thkn1ght. I just think we ran out of things to talk about. Happy to entertain another fighter build if someone finds one.
... True but then again no one really acknowledged my EK builds except for one but eh that’s just me (haha).
I was definitely keeping up with the thread. Guess I forgot to actually type anything.
Pretty sure the best races for EK are Yuan-ti and Satyr (what a shock). But I do like your choice of Half-Orc for the extra damage on those auto-crits quite a bit. The EK seems like the only subclass that can afford to lose initiative thanks mostly to Counterspell backed up by subtle metamagic, so I think it's worth building for maximum resiliency and leaving the initiative game to all the other fighters sitting on their thumbs hoping and praying every die roll is in their favor. I'd probably leave Alert out and rely on high dex and Lucky to win initiative a decent percentage of the time. Also I think a sharpshooter build is the way to go. Melee fighters struggle with so many more problems against the wizard.
I suspect the 20 Wizard can kill the 20 Fighter with just Magic Missile and an escape spell that puts him/her a good distance away from the chance of melee. Archer would probably have the best chance for a fighter.
So like Spell mastery Magic missile and say Misty step... but that wouldn’t work because of bonus action spell rules so you would have to do cantrip Misty step. But you could then just dimension door away and then kite... but tbh that build wouldn’t be that great as the spell slot consumption (Even with the Magic Missile). So yeah it could work but not a recommended build especially when a wizard would have much better spells to use.
I don’t know about that even with my AAA build it almost didn’t make it with just damage and when I was being very generous on the all hit damage and more plus it was under a super duper min max build that took longer to make than anticipated and required oversight and a small revision to merely inch over the finish line. As with sharpshooter it’s akin to GWM and when you use SS you get a -5 to hit of which can be detrimental. Although when you look at the EK it gets easy consistent HUGE damage with a good chance to kill the wizard (Per say the Dread build) and that was using the most conservative outcome within reason so as with an archer build I don’t see it to be a realistic choice against a wizard.
Yeah haha i felt no one addressed the couple EK builds I forged.
Yeah Satyr is pretty strong (that is an understatement) as both Fey, and Magical Resistance are amazing (Although Fey in many campaigns can be deterimental as certain buff spells may not work and resurrection spells like I think Animate Dead needs to be Humanoid) in their own way (not so much Magic Resistance as it is just great). The Half-Orc did the extra damage so I put it as the race.
Yes the Half-Orc for that extra damage is great as it makes sure that even if you do somehow miss it doesn’t impact much as your damage is already so immense.
As with EK and subtle spell remember a wizard can pick it up too! And with initiative a wizard who wins will win (having Subtle Spell) because of timestop, demiplane (entering), then dispelling the Demiplane for infinite prep time or just planeshift (if allowed to know an already made demiplane) he can just win therefore a EK still must acquire a high initiative.
Well yes Alert can be put aside for the Dex build (like the rapier build) but since if the wizard wins initiative he wins the battle so you sometimes must put some more stuff into winning initiative (if the wizard is initiative focused).
Ehhhh I don’t think as (like I said to Torvald99) that with my AAA build it was hard pressed to even inch past the large hit pool of the Dread build so I’d doubt that. Although if you can make/find a fighter archer build which can relatively beat the wizard quite easily do tell I’d love to see!
I don’t see what the problems would be so can you tell me. The first one that comes to mind is distance but that is easily fixed by the fact of being fair and referring to the white room I prescribed previously.
If I missed something/didn’t address something do tell.
obiously no, what he was suggesting was probably something more like fly + casting magic missile with spell slots or dimension door + magic missile with spell slots
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes