Another option for the fighter is to take expertise in stealth.
Shapechange has a duration of 1 hour. The Fighter waits an hour for the Shapechange to expire before attacking.
If we're going with a white room scenario then the fighter needs to be invisible the entire time because you can't just stand very still and pretend to be a tree, you need somewhere to hide.
Yet another in the long list of ways this scenario is intentionally slanted to favor the wizard.
I wouldn't say it's intentional but it's interestingly true. While the wizard gets all their tactical benefits from their spells, a tactical fighter is expected to be making use of the terrain in order to perform at their best with a more straightforward mechanical chassis.
Nobody has an issue with the musket, it's doing damage to self that reduces hp to 0 from full, specifically worded that way to trigger an ability that is the problem. If you can quote the rule that permits this, then the build is fine. If you can't, then it's not. Haven't seen anyone quote anything other than DM fiat, and if you are going down that route, then everyone can make up something that works.
Oh, and savage attacker is melee, not ranged.
I don’t have issues with renaissance firearms. They are not op compared to other weapons. Only when futuristic firearms were brought up did I try to tune it down a bit.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Royalty among the charge kingdom. All will fall before our glorious assault!
Another option for the fighter is to take expertise in stealth.
Shapechange has a duration of 1 hour. The Fighter waits an hour for the Shapechange to expire before attacking.
If we're going with a white room scenario then the fighter needs to be invisible the entire time because you can't just stand very still and pretend to be a tree, you need somewhere to hide.
Yet another in the long list of ways this scenario is intentionally slanted to favor the wizard.
I wouldn't say it's intentional but it's interestingly true. While the wizard gets all their tactical benefits from their spells, a tactical fighter is expected to be making use of the terrain in order to perform at their best with a more straightforward mechanical chassis.
If anyone has an objective way to give people cover, please speak up. It will greatly benefit this fight.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Royalty among the charge kingdom. All will fall before our glorious assault!
Nobody has an issue with the musket, it's doing damage to self that reduces hp to 0 from full, specifically worded that way to trigger an ability that is the problem. If you can quote the rule that permits this, then the build is fine. If you can't, then it's not. Haven't seen anyone quote anything other than DM fiat, and if you are going down that route, then everyone can make up something that works.
Oh, and savage attacker is melee, not ranged.
I don’t have issues with renaissance firearms. They are not op compared to other weapons. Only when futuristic firearms were brought up did I try to tune it down a bit.
Ahhh, it's a misunderstanding on my part then. Sorry bout that. Although I admit to curiosity on the subject of whether it was achievable with only PHB weapons. Probably its, I just didn't quite get the Fear and ability balance right. Might try something with Echo Knight.
Another option for the fighter is to take expertise in stealth.
Shapechange has a duration of 1 hour. The Fighter waits an hour for the Shapechange to expire before attacking.
If we're going with a white room scenario then the fighter needs to be invisible the entire time because you can't just stand very still and pretend to be a tree, you need somewhere to hide.
Yet another in the long list of ways this scenario is intentionally slanted to favor the wizard.
I wouldn't say it's intentional but it's interestingly true. While the wizard gets all their tactical benefits from their spells, a tactical fighter is expected to be making use of the terrain in order to perform at their best with a more straightforward mechanical chassis.
If anyone has an objective way to give people cover, please speak up. It will greatly benefit this fight.
There aren't any. That's the thing, anything other than a white room is designed by people making builds meaning they'll select cover based on what suits them. The only way I could suggest is if someone were to build a specific arena for the battle that everyone agreed on - the white room is convenient for this purpose mostly but people will always disagree on what constitutes a 'fair' arena.
Mostly because every arena requires a different form of optimisation to beat and in actual play you'll likely never battle in exactly the same circumstances twice. I'd say the white room does the trick for now though. It's been the premise of a lot of this thread alongside lack of prep time and no magic items and it's too late to change now.
Fair way to provide cover would be for the wizard to cast Mirage Arcane on their first turn and essentially pick the arena though. That'd solve this debate.
Another option for the fighter is to take expertise in stealth.
Shapechange has a duration of 1 hour. The Fighter waits an hour for the Shapechange to expire before attacking.
If we're going with a white room scenario then the fighter needs to be invisible the entire time because you can't just stand very still and pretend to be a tree, you need somewhere to hide.
Yet another in the long list of ways this scenario is intentionally slanted to favor the wizard.
I wouldn't say it's intentional but it's interestingly true. While the wizard gets all their tactical benefits from their spells, a tactical fighter is expected to be making use of the terrain in order to perform at their best with a more straightforward mechanical chassis.
If anyone has an objective way to give people cover, please speak up. It will greatly benefit this fight.
The point is that there isn't one. And that doesn't mean that a wide-open, featureless, boundless white area stops being an intentional skewing in the wizard's favor.
Another option for the fighter is to take expertise in stealth.
Shapechange has a duration of 1 hour. The Fighter waits an hour for the Shapechange to expire before attacking.
If we're going with a white room scenario then the fighter needs to be invisible the entire time because you can't just stand very still and pretend to be a tree, you need somewhere to hide.
Yet another in the long list of ways this scenario is intentionally slanted to favor the wizard.
I wouldn't say it's intentional but it's interestingly true. While the wizard gets all their tactical benefits from their spells, a tactical fighter is expected to be making use of the terrain in order to perform at their best with a more straightforward mechanical chassis.
If anyone has an objective way to give people cover, please speak up. It will greatly benefit this fight.
There aren't any. That's the thing, anything other than a white room is designed by people making builds meaning they'll select cover based on what suits them. The only way I could suggest is if someone were to build a specific arena for the battle that everyone agreed on - the white room is convenient for this purpose mostly but people will always disagree on what constitutes a 'fair' arena.
Mostly because every arena requires a different form of optimisation to beat and in actual play you'll likely never battle in exactly the same circumstances twice. I'd say the white room does the trick for now though. It's been the premise of a lot of this thread alongside lack of prep time and no magic items and it's too late to change now.
Fair way to provide cover would be for the wizard to cast Mirage Arcane on their first turn and essentially pick the arena though. That'd solve this debate.
Answer: B-but there is a way to get/make cover that is objective... observe using the Marching Order rules and such you know while travelling a group marches in a line with usually 4 people (although it can be 2x2) and each are assigned a rank and job to do while travelling see pg 182 of the PHB on the section Marching Order:
"The adventurers should establish a marching order. A marching order makes it easier to determine which characters are affected by traps, which ones can spot hidden enemies, and which ones are the closest to those enemies when a fight breaks out.
A character might occupy the front rank, one or more middle ranks, or the back rank. Characters in the front and back ranks need enough room to travel side by side with others in their rank. When space is too tight, the marching order must change, usually by moving characters to a middle rank.
Fewer Than Three Ranks. If an adventuring party arranges its marching order with only two ranks, they are a front rank and a back rank. If there’s only one rank, it’s considered a front rank."
This shows how you can situate an adventuring part anywhere from the classic 1x4, or if needed seemingly into the 2x2 format as you can manipulate the order into either formation.
Now how to fill that marching order... quite simple grab the Knight Background and Grab two Commoners and a Noble squire that come with the Background Feature RETAINERS. In addition since Mounts and Vehicles are available you can have some horses and carts "spawn in" with the fighter along side some animals and such so you can make some cover happen quite easily as they would also follow your marching order for all intents and purposes.
But you mustn't forget that the wizard could also do this strategy and use the Marching Order and horse and carts to make some cover and barriers to make it very hard to even get eyeshot on the wizard when they are essentially surrounded by large objects/vehicles and people.
Nobody has an issue with the musket, it's doing damage to self that reduces hp to 0 from full, specifically worded that way to trigger an ability that is the problem. If you can quote the rule that permits this, then the build is fine. If you can't, then it's not. Haven't seen anyone quote anything other than DM fiat, and if you are going down that route, then everyone can make up something that works.
Oh, and savage attacker is melee, not ranged.
I don’t have issues with renaissance firearms. They are not op compared to other weapons. Only when futuristic firearms were brought up did I try to tune it down a bit.
Ahhh, it's a misunderstanding on my part then. Sorry bout that. Although I admit to curiosity on the subject of whether it was achievable with only PHB weapons. Probably its, I just didn't quite get the Fear and ability balance right. Might try something with Echo Knight.
Answer: Just saying you know Flanking exists right... so if you just take my SSS build from post #1052 and substitute Mounted Combatant for Athlete then do the fall off mount flank the wizard strategy you can get Advantage that way and remember poison coated ammunition is always a thing even if the fighter isn't using Purple Worm Poison the normal poison can potentially add up.
Another option for the fighter is to take expertise in stealth.
Shapechange has a duration of 1 hour. The Fighter waits an hour for the Shapechange to expire before attacking.
If we're going with a white room scenario then the fighter needs to be invisible the entire time because you can't just stand very still and pretend to be a tree, you need somewhere to hide.
Yet another in the long list of ways this scenario is intentionally slanted to favor the wizard.
I wouldn't say it's intentional but it's interestingly true. While the wizard gets all their tactical benefits from their spells, a tactical fighter is expected to be making use of the terrain in order to perform at their best with a more straightforward mechanical chassis.
If anyone has an objective way to give people cover, please speak up. It will greatly benefit this fight.
There aren't any. That's the thing, anything other than a white room is designed by people making builds meaning they'll select cover based on what suits them. The only way I could suggest is if someone were to build a specific arena for the battle that everyone agreed on - the white room is convenient for this purpose mostly but people will always disagree on what constitutes a 'fair' arena.
Mostly because every arena requires a different form of optimisation to beat and in actual play you'll likely never battle in exactly the same circumstances twice. I'd say the white room does the trick for now though. It's been the premise of a lot of this thread alongside lack of prep time and no magic items and it's too late to change now.
Fair way to provide cover would be for the wizard to cast Mirage Arcane on their first turn and essentially pick the arena though. That'd solve this debate.
Answer: B-but there is a way to get/make cover that is objective... observe using the Marching Order rules and such you know while travelling a group marches in a line with usually 4 people (although it can be 2x2) and each are assigned a rank and job to do while travelling see pg 182 of the PHB on the section Marching Order:
"The adventurers should establish a marching order. A marching order makes it easier to determine which characters are affected by traps, which ones can spot hidden enemies, and which ones are the closest to those enemies when a fight breaks out.
A character might occupy the front rank, one or more middle ranks, or the back rank. Characters in the front and back ranks need enough room to travel side by side with others in their rank. When space is too tight, the marching order must change, usually by moving characters to a middle rank.
Fewer Than Three Ranks. If an adventuring party arranges its marching order with only two ranks, they are a front rank and a back rank. If there’s only one rank, it’s considered a front rank."
This shows how you can situate an adventuring part anywhere from the classic 1x4, or if needed seemingly into the 2x2 format as you can manipulate the order into either formation.
Now how to fill that marching order... quite simple grab the Knight Background and Grab two Commoners and a Noble squire that come with the Background Feature RETAINERS. In addition since Mounts and Vehicles are available you can have some horses and carts "spawn in" with the fighter along side some animals and such so you can make some cover happen quite easily as they would also follow your marching order for all intents and purposes.
But you mustn't forget that the wizard could also do this strategy and use the Marching Order and horse and carts to make some cover and barriers to make it very hard to even get eyeshot on the wizard when they are essentially surrounded by large objects/vehicles and people.
Nobody has an issue with the musket, it's doing damage to self that reduces hp to 0 from full, specifically worded that way to trigger an ability that is the problem. If you can quote the rule that permits this, then the build is fine. If you can't, then it's not. Haven't seen anyone quote anything other than DM fiat, and if you are going down that route, then everyone can make up something that works.
Oh, and savage attacker is melee, not ranged.
I don’t have issues with renaissance firearms. They are not op compared to other weapons. Only when futuristic firearms were brought up did I try to tune it down a bit.
Ahhh, it's a misunderstanding on my part then. Sorry bout that. Although I admit to curiosity on the subject of whether it was achievable with only PHB weapons. Probably its, I just didn't quite get the Fear and ability balance right. Might try something with Echo Knight.
Answer: Just saying you know Flanking exists right... so if you just take my SSS build from post #1052 and substitute Mounted Combatant for Athlete then do the fall off mount flank the wizard strategy you can get Advantage that way and remember poison coated ammunition is always a thing even if the fighter isn't using Purple Worm Poison the normal poison can potentially add up.
Nobody uses poisons in this game. Too much money for too little damage at the low end, and simply too much money at the high end. I don’t think it is fair to use multiple doses of poison for the battle. I am completely fine with one purple worm poison arrow though.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Royalty among the charge kingdom. All will fall before our glorious assault!
Nobody has an issue with the musket, it's doing damage to self that reduces hp to 0 from full, specifically worded that way to trigger an ability that is the problem. If you can quote the rule that permits this, then the build is fine. If you can't, then it's not. Haven't seen anyone quote anything other than DM fiat, and if you are going down that route, then everyone can make up something that works.
Oh, and savage attacker is melee, not ranged.
That's funny given how you reacted to the point that Wish has the casting time of a copied spell.
Think you may have me confused with someone else, I never got involved with that one.
Answer: No I have tried to use poisons before and also I have tried to argue against them awhile back so to say nobody uses poison is just wrong to say the least.
Too much money for too little damage at the low end, and simply too much money at the high end.
Answer: When did money become a problem? We have characters having half plate, muskets, carts/horses/mounts, costly material components and more yet at poisons you draw the line seems like a lack of consistency to me especially when many/everyone (except for me) said that nonmagical items are free game. My original position was that we could only use what we could get with either starting equipment or starting gold but now everything that isn't magic is free.
I don’t think it is fair to use multiple doses of poison for the battle. I am completely fine with one purple worm poison arrow though.
Answer: I could see why you don't like it but that is an entirely subjective opinion and has no basis on RAW or previously made rules. And while I do think that yes we could ignore poisonous ammunition/weapons for the sake of just trying to get damage with only the fighter build and not "outside" sources I think it is wrong to just disregard and play off poison as if it is crazy to talk about it since poison is entirely valid.
Another option for the fighter is to take expertise in stealth.
Shapechange has a duration of 1 hour. The Fighter waits an hour for the Shapechange to expire before attacking.
If we're going with a white room scenario then the fighter needs to be invisible the entire time because you can't just stand very still and pretend to be a tree, you need somewhere to hide.
Yet another in the long list of ways this scenario is intentionally slanted to favor the wizard.
I wouldn't say it's intentional but it's interestingly true. While the wizard gets all their tactical benefits from their spells, a tactical fighter is expected to be making use of the terrain in order to perform at their best with a more straightforward mechanical chassis.
If anyone has an objective way to give people cover, please speak up. It will greatly benefit this fight.
There aren't any. That's the thing, anything other than a white room is designed by people making builds meaning they'll select cover based on what suits them. The only way I could suggest is if someone were to build a specific arena for the battle that everyone agreed on - the white room is convenient for this purpose mostly but people will always disagree on what constitutes a 'fair' arena.
Mostly because every arena requires a different form of optimisation to beat and in actual play you'll likely never battle in exactly the same circumstances twice. I'd say the white room does the trick for now though. It's been the premise of a lot of this thread alongside lack of prep time and no magic items and it's too late to change now.
Fair way to provide cover would be for the wizard to cast Mirage Arcane on their first turn and essentially pick the arena though. That'd solve this debate.
Answer: B-but there is a way to get/make cover that is objective... observe using the Marching Order rules and such you know while travelling a group marches in a line with usually 4 people (although it can be 2x2) and each are assigned a rank and job to do while travelling see pg 182 of the PHB on the section Marching Order:
"The adventurers should establish a marching order. A marching order makes it easier to determine which characters are affected by traps, which ones can spot hidden enemies, and which ones are the closest to those enemies when a fight breaks out.
A character might occupy the front rank, one or more middle ranks, or the back rank. Characters in the front and back ranks need enough room to travel side by side with others in their rank. When space is too tight, the marching order must change, usually by moving characters to a middle rank.
Fewer Than Three Ranks. If an adventuring party arranges its marching order with only two ranks, they are a front rank and a back rank. If there’s only one rank, it’s considered a front rank."
This shows how you can situate an adventuring part anywhere from the classic 1x4, or if needed seemingly into the 2x2 format as you can manipulate the order into either formation.
Now how to fill that marching order... quite simple grab the Knight Background and Grab two Commoners and a Noble squire that come with the Background Feature RETAINERS. In addition since Mounts and Vehicles are available you can have some horses and carts "spawn in" with the fighter along side some animals and such so you can make some cover happen quite easily as they would also follow your marching order for all intents and purposes.
But you mustn't forget that the wizard could also do this strategy and use the Marching Order and horse and carts to make some cover and barriers to make it very hard to even get eyeshot on the wizard when they are essentially surrounded by large objects/vehicles and people.
Nobody has an issue with the musket, it's doing damage to self that reduces hp to 0 from full, specifically worded that way to trigger an ability that is the problem. If you can quote the rule that permits this, then the build is fine. If you can't, then it's not. Haven't seen anyone quote anything other than DM fiat, and if you are going down that route, then everyone can make up something that works.
Oh, and savage attacker is melee, not ranged.
I don’t have issues with renaissance firearms. They are not op compared to other weapons. Only when futuristic firearms were brought up did I try to tune it down a bit.
Ahhh, it's a misunderstanding on my part then. Sorry bout that. Although I admit to curiosity on the subject of whether it was achievable with only PHB weapons. Probably its, I just didn't quite get the Fear and ability balance right. Might try something with Echo Knight.
Answer: Just saying you know Flanking exists right... so if you just take my SSS build from post #1052 and substitute Mounted Combatant for Athlete then do the fall off mount flank the wizard strategy you can get Advantage that way and remember poison coated ammunition is always a thing even if the fighter isn't using Purple Worm Poison the normal poison can potentially add up.
Nobody uses poisons in this game. Too much money for too little damage at the low end, and simply too much money at the high end. I don’t think it is fair to use multiple doses of poison for the battle. I am completely fine with one purple worm poison arrow though.
I think Malice may be the way to go poison wise, wizard struggles with poison and status effects, and blinded shuts down a lot of spells that require the caster can see. Inhaled poisons just need to cover a 5x5 square to be effective, which means you are targeting an area not a creature, neutralising a high ac. You'd need 7 doses on average to fail a normal save at con 20 plus proficiency though, which is 1750gp iirc.
Nobody has an issue with the musket, it's doing damage to self that reduces hp to 0 from full, specifically worded that way to trigger an ability that is the problem. If you can quote the rule that permits this, then the build is fine. If you can't, then it's not. Haven't seen anyone quote anything other than DM fiat, and if you are going down that route, then everyone can make up something that works.
Oh, and savage attacker is melee, not ranged.
I don’t have issues with renaissance firearms. They are not op compared to other weapons. Only when futuristic firearms were brought up did I try to tune it down a bit.
Ahhh, it's a misunderstanding on my part then. Sorry bout that. Although I admit to curiosity on the subject of whether it was achievable with only PHB weapons. Probably its, I just didn't quite get the Fear and ability balance right. Might try something with Echo Knight.
Answer: Just saying you know Flanking exists right... so if you just take my SSS build from post #1052 and substitute Mounted Combatant for Athlete then do the fall off mount flank the wizard strategy you can get Advantage that way and remember poison coated ammunition is always a thing even if the fighter isn't using Purple Worm Poison the normal poison can potentially add up.
Poisons exist, yes, but if possible I'd rather not use them, it takes away from the fun. Use them yourself if you like but I find adding equipment beyond weapons for damage makes me feel less satisfied after the final build works.
Flanking is an optional rule, so we can't rely on that being applied.
The Echo Knight comment was intended as separate, I want to try and see if an echo knight character could be viable.
Nobody has an issue with the musket, it's doing damage to self that reduces hp to 0 from full, specifically worded that way to trigger an ability that is the problem. If you can quote the rule that permits this, then the build is fine. If you can't, then it's not. Haven't seen anyone quote anything other than DM fiat, and if you are going down that route, then everyone can make up something that works.
Oh, and savage attacker is melee, not ranged.
I don’t have issues with renaissance firearms. They are not op compared to other weapons. Only when futuristic firearms were brought up did I try to tune it down a bit.
Ahhh, it's a misunderstanding on my part then. Sorry bout that. Although I admit to curiosity on the subject of whether it was achievable with only PHB weapons. Probably its, I just didn't quite get the Fear and ability balance right. Might try something with Echo Knight.
Answer: Just saying you know Flanking exists right... so if you just take my SSS build from post #1052 and substitute Mounted Combatant for Athlete then do the fall off mount flank the wizard strategy you can get Advantage that way and remember poison coated ammunition is always a thing even if the fighter isn't using Purple Worm Poison the normal poison can potentially add up.
Poisons exist, yes, but if possible I'd rather not use them, it's takes away from the fun.
Answer: I agree that just using like 17 pieces of poisoned purple worm ammunition does take away from the fun.
Flanking is an optional rule, so we can't rely on that being applied.
Answer: So are feats… so is the Disarm tactic and firearms/futuristic weapons, so is like half the things we do on this forum as they all use optional stuff since without it the fighter (to my knowledge) is incapable of defeating the wizard. In fact any book beyond the PHB, DMG, MM could be considered optional and if we go that way even the PHB, DMG, and MM are optional since the DM has full say on what is used… So just saying something is optional doesn’t mean we should suddenly completely ignore it. The only way we could disallow Flanking without being intellectually dishonest or biased is by outright banning all optional content and I can tell you now we aren’t going to do that.
The Echo Knight comment was intended as separate, I want to try and see if an echo knight character could be viable.
Answer: I thought about many builds and the only builds that seemed viable were the Arcane Archer, Echo Knight, Eldritch Knight, and Samurai. Of those four only 2 to my knowledge are capable of actually defeating the Tank Wizard one being the EK and the the other the SSS. And I’ll tell you now I don’t have a single clue how you are gonna get the Echo Knight to deal enough damage to kill the tank wizard because I just don’t think the Echo Knight has enough attacks (10) compared to the Samurai amount (18). And although while I do think it may be possible If I or you spent a good amount of time to figure it out I feel to bridge the damage gap between the SSS and Echo Knight it would be very hard if not outright improbable.
Anyways do tell if I missed or messed up anything.
Another option for the fighter is to take expertise in stealth.
Shapechange has a duration of 1 hour. The Fighter waits an hour for the Shapechange to expire before attacking.
If we're going with a white room scenario then the fighter needs to be invisible the entire time because you can't just stand very still and pretend to be a tree, you need somewhere to hide.
Yet another in the long list of ways this scenario is intentionally slanted to favor the wizard.
I wouldn't say it's intentional but it's interestingly true. While the wizard gets all their tactical benefits from their spells, a tactical fighter is expected to be making use of the terrain in order to perform at their best with a more straightforward mechanical chassis.
If anyone has an objective way to give people cover, please speak up. It will greatly benefit this fight.
There aren't any. That's the thing, anything other than a white room is designed by people making builds meaning they'll select cover based on what suits them. The only way I could suggest is if someone were to build a specific arena for the battle that everyone agreed on - the white room is convenient for this purpose mostly but people will always disagree on what constitutes a 'fair' arena.
Mostly because every arena requires a different form of optimisation to beat and in actual play you'll likely never battle in exactly the same circumstances twice. I'd say the white room does the trick for now though. It's been the premise of a lot of this thread alongside lack of prep time and no magic items and it's too late to change now.
Fair way to provide cover would be for the wizard to cast Mirage Arcane on their first turn and essentially pick the arena though. That'd solve this debate.
Answer: B-but there is a way to get/make cover that is objective... observe using the Marching Order rules and such you know while travelling a group marches in a line with usually 4 people (although it can be 2x2) and each are assigned a rank and job to do while travelling see pg 182 of the PHB on the section Marching Order:
"The adventurers should establish a marching order. A marching order makes it easier to determine which characters are affected by traps, which ones can spot hidden enemies, and which ones are the closest to those enemies when a fight breaks out.
A character might occupy the front rank, one or more middle ranks, or the back rank. Characters in the front and back ranks need enough room to travel side by side with others in their rank. When space is too tight, the marching order must change, usually by moving characters to a middle rank.
Fewer Than Three Ranks. If an adventuring party arranges its marching order with only two ranks, they are a front rank and a back rank. If there’s only one rank, it’s considered a front rank."
This shows how you can situate an adventuring part anywhere from the classic 1x4, or if needed seemingly into the 2x2 format as you can manipulate the order into either formation.
Now how to fill that marching order... quite simple grab the Knight Background and Grab two Commoners and a Noble squire that come with the Background Feature RETAINERS. In addition since Mounts and Vehicles are available you can have some horses and carts "spawn in" with the fighter along side some animals and such so you can make some cover happen quite easily as they would also follow your marching order for all intents and purposes.
But you mustn't forget that the wizard could also do this strategy and use the Marching Order and horse and carts to make some cover and barriers to make it very hard to even get eyeshot on the wizard when they are essentially surrounded by large objects/vehicles and people.
Nobody has an issue with the musket, it's doing damage to self that reduces hp to 0 from full, specifically worded that way to trigger an ability that is the problem. If you can quote the rule that permits this, then the build is fine. If you can't, then it's not. Haven't seen anyone quote anything other than DM fiat, and if you are going down that route, then everyone can make up something that works.
Oh, and savage attacker is melee, not ranged.
I don’t have issues with renaissance firearms. They are not op compared to other weapons. Only when futuristic firearms were brought up did I try to tune it down a bit.
Ahhh, it's a misunderstanding on my part then. Sorry bout that. Although I admit to curiosity on the subject of whether it was achievable with only PHB weapons. Probably its, I just didn't quite get the Fear and ability balance right. Might try something with Echo Knight.
Answer: Just saying you know Flanking exists right... so if you just take my SSS build from post #1052 and substitute Mounted Combatant for Athlete then do the fall off mount flank the wizard strategy you can get Advantage that way and remember poison coated ammunition is always a thing even if the fighter isn't using Purple Worm Poison the normal poison can potentially add up.
Nobody uses poisons in this game. Too much money for too little damage at the low end, and simply too much money at the high end. I don’t think it is fair to use multiple doses of poison for the battle. I am completely fine with one purple worm poison arrow though.
I think Malice may be the way to go poison wise, wizard struggles with poison and status effects, and blinded shuts down a lot of spells that require the caster can see. Inhaled poisons just need to cover a 5x5 square to be effective, which means you are targeting an area not a creature, neutralising a high ac. You'd need 7 doses on average to fail a normal save at con 20 plus proficiency though, which is 1750gp iirc.
This is exactly why poison is a terrible way to spend money. Nobody should spend 35 pounds of gold on one fight unless they have an extremely good reason to. Inhaled poison is often worse than just attacking for characters this strong. Injury poison takes tons of gold to apply to multiple pieces of ammo and doesn’t work well on any type of melee weapon. Contact is only good for traps or as an imitation of injury poison. Ingested poison has no use once the fighting starts here, it’s for feeding your enemy to weaken or kill them outside of combat. One dose of purple worm poison is fine. 15 arrows is tens of thousands of gold spent on a single fight and if we allow that much gold on one fight with no permanent benefit then first we should allow low-grade magic items. Nothing crazy, just uncommons or something.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Royalty among the charge kingdom. All will fall before our glorious assault!
Flanking is an optional rule, so we can't rely on that being applied.
Answer: So are feats… so is the Disarm tactic and firearms/futuristic weapons, so is like half the things we do on this forum as they all use optional stuff since without it the fighter (to my knowledge) is incapable of defeating the wizard. In fact any book beyond the PHB, DMG, MM could be considered optional and if we go that way even the PHB, DMG, and MM are optional since the DM has full say on what is used… So just saying something is optional doesn’t mean we should suddenly completely ignore it. The only way we could disallow Flanking without being intellectually dishonest or biased is by outright banning all optional content and I can tell you now we aren’t going to do that.
Yeah, but most tables use feats, flanking is rare to be seen in play, as KingOfCharge rightly pointed out. And I'm also going to try not to use guns because again a large number of tables don't use guns.
Answer: I thought about many builds and the only builds that seemed viable were the Arcane Archer, Echo Knight, Eldritch Knight, and Samurai. Of those four only 2 to my knowledge are capable of actually defeating the Tank Wizard one being the EK and the the other the SSS. And I’ll tell you now I don’t have a single clue how you are gonna get the Echo Knight to deal enough damage to kill the tank wizard because I just don’t think the Echo Knight has enough attacks (10) compared to the Samurai amount (18). And although while I do think it may be possible If I or you spent a good amount of time to figure it out I feel to bridge the damage gap between the SSS and Echo Knight it would be very hard if not outright improbable.
Probably can't get the damage high enough but we'll find out. If we can get a method of reaching high enough single attack damage that ditching GWF becomes possible you may be able to make up for fewer overall attacks in favour of a greater hit rate. Anyway, I'll see what I come up with.
Flanking is an optional rule, so we can't rely on that being applied.
Answer: So are feats… so is the Disarm tactic and firearms/futuristic weapons, so is like half the things we do on this forum as they all use optional stuff since without it the fighter (to my knowledge) is incapable of defeating the wizard. In fact any book beyond the PHB, DMG, MM could be considered optional and if we go that way even the PHB, DMG, and MM are optional since the DM has full say on what is used… So just saying something is optional doesn’t mean we should suddenly completely ignore it. The only way we could disallow Flanking without being intellectually dishonest or biased is by outright banning all optional content and I can tell you now we aren’t going to do that.
Yeah, but most tables use feats, flanking is rare to be seen in play, as KingOfCharge rightly pointed out. And I'm also going to try not to use guns because again a large number of tables don't use guns.
Answer: I thought about many builds and the only builds that seemed viable were the Arcane Archer, Echo Knight, Eldritch Knight, and Samurai. Of those four only 2 to my knowledge are capable of actually defeating the Tank Wizard one being the EK and the the other the SSS. And I’ll tell you now I don’t have a single clue how you are gonna get the Echo Knight to deal enough damage to kill the tank wizard because I just don’t think the Echo Knight has enough attacks (10) compared to the Samurai amount (18). And although while I do think it may be possible If I or you spent a good amount of time to figure it out I feel to bridge the damage gap between the SSS and Echo Knight it would be very hard if not outright improbable.
Probably can't get the damage high enough but we'll find out. If we can get a method of reaching high enough single attack damage that ditching GWF becomes possible you may be able to make up for fewer overall attacks in favour of a greater hit rate. Anyway, I'll see what I come up with.
I would be fine with renaissance firearms being used, they aren’t that much stronger than everything else. Modern and futuristic ones are clearly meant to be noticeably stronger than even +2 weapons. The thing is that renaissance firearms have a listed price, while the others don’t. I am using this to indicate that renaissance firearms are much easier to get than futuristic ones.
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Answer: I thought about many builds and the only builds that seemed viable were the Arcane Archer, Echo Knight, Eldritch Knight, and Samurai. Of those four only 2 to my knowledge are capable of actually defeating the Tank Wizard one being the EK and the the other the SSS. And I’ll tell you now I don’t have a single clue how you are gonna get the Echo Knight to deal enough damage to kill the tank wizard because I just don’t think the Echo Knight has enough attacks (10) compared to the Samurai amount (18). And although while I do think it may be possible If I or you spent a good amount of time to figure it out I feel to bridge the damage gap between the SSS and Echo Knight it would be very hard if not outright improbable.
Actually, level 20 echo knight can have 24 attacks, RAW. 4 attacks, action surge, and two Echo's attacks from each space. With Crossbow expert, it's 4 attacks, bonus action 5 plus action surge, 10, and two echoes equal 30 attacks, with a d6 weapon, with sharpshooter feat and with a maxed a dex score a plus 11 to attack, and plus 5 to damage, taking the minus 5 to attack is still a plus 6, and then that's another 10 damage if say, only 10 attacks hit, then that's 160 damage minimum, and since wizards have a low ac, there is a chance that all of them hit, which is a minimum of 480 damage, and then that's not taking into account the fact that the fighter will probably have a +3 weapon, which is a +14 to attack, or with sharpshooters feat, a +9 to attack, and a +3 to damage, means that it's instead a minimum of 570 damage. That's with rolling a 1 on all of the dice, and the fighter can do this twice, not to mention inside of the range of the crossbow, which essentially makes the fighter range 120 feet with the sharpshooter feat, ignoring half, and 3/4 cover, which is 24 squares, in any direction and can still do it up close because of the crossbow expert feat, and then that's not even considering the damage that could happen if there was a critical or on rolling decently well with the dice. Say you roll equal to getting a 3 on every dice. That's another 90 damage, boosting it to 660 damage, nearly one shooting a tarrasque. Max damage is 750 damage, and with a bit of luck, then you can plausibly roll to get 690 damage, and with a bit more, it's very plausible that one could roll a 700, with all the modifiers. So, if the max wizard range for a spell is the same as this fighter(RAW) without spell sniper or eldritch spear gained via feats, then that means that the Wizard would have to try out a higher-level spell, with a much longer range, so I think that against this specific build the wizard will get creamed, with one turn from the fighter, and that will probably one-shot, with 10 hits, because wizard has so little health. I don't know how much health the Tank Wizard has though, but I would assume that this can kill them, since you said 18 attack Samurai could do it, I think that a 30-attack barrage that deals that much damage, would win.
Thank you for listening to my ted talk, 1% percent of people who read all of that.
Actually, level 20 echo knight can have 24 attacks, RAW. 4 attacks, action surge, and two Echo's attacks from each space. With Crossbow expert, it's 4 attacks, bonus action 5 plus action surge, 10, and two echoes equal 30 attacks...
Huh? 30 attacks?
Level 20 Echo Knight...
Bonus action used for Manifest Echo i.e. create the echo Attack action = 4 attacks Unleash Incarnation = 1 additional melee attack from Echo's location Action Surge for another Attack action = 4 attacks Unleash Incarnation = 1 additional melee attack from Echo's location
Total = 10 attacks.
First, your bonus action has to be used to make the echo, so you don't have it for an attack. I think our assumption for almost the entirety of this thread is both classes starting from scratch. This is to the benefit of the fighter, since a 20 wizard with prep time would be almost certainly unbeatable.
Second, you only get one bonus action per turn. Action Surge gives you another action, not bonus action. So even if you had your Echo out already, it would only be one more weapon attack with your bonus action.
Third, your Echo doesn't get to take another full Attack action. You can either make one of your four attacks from it's location using Manifest Echo or make one additional melee attack from it's location using Unleash Incarnation. That's it. Echo Knight will get two more attacks because of Unleashed Incarnation, but lose one attack by having to use the bonus action to create the Echo. On net, it's 10 attacks for EK vs 9 attacks for regular fighter utilizing their bonus action for an attack.
I think I did all this right, but if I did something wrong...I know I will hear it with this group! ;)
Actually, level 20 echo knight can have 24 attacks, RAW. 4 attacks, action surge, and two Echo's attacks from each space. With Crossbow expert, it's 4 attacks, bonus action 5 plus action surge, 10, and two echoes equal 30 attacks...
Huh? 30 attacks?
Level 20 Echo Knight...
Bonus action used for Manifest Echo i.e. create the echo Attack action = 4 attacks Unleash Incarnation = 1 additional melee attack from Echo's location Action Surge for another Attack action = 4 attacks Unleash Incarnation = 1 additional melee attack from Echo's location
Total = 10 attacks.
Answer: Everything looks right.
As for the 30 attacks I am confused how he got there though it seems he thought that with Legion of One and Unleash Incarnate you get one additional attack for each echo but when in fact it is just an single attack from an echo. Then once more it looks like he misinterpreted how the fighter’s action surge and bonus action works. Then later in his post he talks about how every attack will hit… magic weapons… some other random stuff and ends up with like 600+ damage but either way the entire premise of his post has been incorrect.
First, your bonus action has to be used to make the echo, so you don't have it for an attack. I think our assumption for almost the entirety of this thread is both classes starting from scratch. This is to the benefit of the fighter, since a 20 wizard with prep time would be almost certainly unbeatable.
Second, you only get one bonus action per turn. Action Surge gives you another action, not bonus action. So even if you had your Echo out already, it would only be one more weapon attack with your bonus action.
Third, your Echo doesn't get to take another full Attack action. You can either make one of your four attacks from it's location using Manifest Echo or make one additional melee attack from it's location using Unleash Incarnation. That's it. Echo Knight will get two more attacks because of Unleashed Incarnation, but lose one attack by having to use the bonus action to create the Echo. On net, it's 10 attacks for EK vs 9 attacks for regular fighter utilizing their bonus action for an attack.
I think I did all this right, but if I did something wrong...I know I will hear it with this group! ;)
Answer: Great response I don’t see any problems (not like you needed someone checking your work though).
I wouldn't say it's intentional but it's interestingly true. While the wizard gets all their tactical benefits from their spells, a tactical fighter is expected to be making use of the terrain in order to perform at their best with a more straightforward mechanical chassis.
Chilling kinda vibe.
I don’t have issues with renaissance firearms. They are not op compared to other weapons. Only when futuristic firearms were brought up did I try to tune it down a bit.
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If anyone has an objective way to give people cover, please speak up. It will greatly benefit this fight.
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Ahhh, it's a misunderstanding on my part then. Sorry bout that. Although I admit to curiosity on the subject of whether it was achievable with only PHB weapons. Probably its, I just didn't quite get the Fear and ability balance right. Might try something with Echo Knight.
Chilling kinda vibe.
There aren't any. That's the thing, anything other than a white room is designed by people making builds meaning they'll select cover based on what suits them. The only way I could suggest is if someone were to build a specific arena for the battle that everyone agreed on - the white room is convenient for this purpose mostly but people will always disagree on what constitutes a 'fair' arena.
Mostly because every arena requires a different form of optimisation to beat and in actual play you'll likely never battle in exactly the same circumstances twice. I'd say the white room does the trick for now though. It's been the premise of a lot of this thread alongside lack of prep time and no magic items and it's too late to change now.
Fair way to provide cover would be for the wizard to cast Mirage Arcane on their first turn and essentially pick the arena though. That'd solve this debate.
Chilling kinda vibe.
The point is that there isn't one. And that doesn't mean that a wide-open, featureless, boundless white area stops being an intentional skewing in the wizard's favor.
Answer: B-but there is a way to get/make cover that is objective... observe using the Marching Order rules and such you know while travelling a group marches in a line with usually 4 people (although it can be 2x2) and each are assigned a rank and job to do while travelling see pg 182 of the PHB on the section Marching Order:
"The adventurers should establish a marching order. A marching order makes it easier to determine which characters are affected by traps, which ones can spot hidden enemies, and which ones are the closest to those enemies when a fight breaks out.
A character might occupy the front rank, one or more middle ranks, or the back rank. Characters in the front and back ranks need enough room to travel side by side with others in their rank. When space is too tight, the marching order must change, usually by moving characters to a middle rank.
Fewer Than Three Ranks. If an adventuring party arranges its marching order with only two ranks, they are a front rank and a back rank. If there’s only one rank, it’s considered a front rank."
This shows how you can situate an adventuring part anywhere from the classic 1x4, or if needed seemingly into the 2x2 format as you can manipulate the order into either formation.
Now how to fill that marching order... quite simple grab the Knight Background and Grab two Commoners and a Noble squire that come with the Background Feature RETAINERS. In addition since Mounts and Vehicles are available you can have some horses and carts "spawn in" with the fighter along side some animals and such so you can make some cover happen quite easily as they would also follow your marching order for all intents and purposes.
But you mustn't forget that the wizard could also do this strategy and use the Marching Order and horse and carts to make some cover and barriers to make it very hard to even get eyeshot on the wizard when they are essentially surrounded by large objects/vehicles and people.
Answer: Just saying you know Flanking exists right... so if you just take my SSS build from post #1052 and substitute Mounted Combatant for Athlete then do the fall off mount flank the wizard strategy you can get Advantage that way and remember poison coated ammunition is always a thing even if the fighter isn't using Purple Worm Poison the normal poison can potentially add up.
Nobody uses poisons in this game. Too much money for too little damage at the low end, and simply too much money at the high end. I don’t think it is fair to use multiple doses of poison for the battle. I am completely fine with one purple worm poison arrow though.
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Think you may have me confused with someone else, I never got involved with that one.
Answer: No I have tried to use poisons before and also I have tried to argue against them awhile back so to say nobody uses poison is just wrong to say the least.
Answer: When did money become a problem? We have characters having half plate, muskets, carts/horses/mounts, costly material components and more yet at poisons you draw the line seems like a lack of consistency to me especially when many/everyone (except for me) said that nonmagical items are free game. My original position was that we could only use what we could get with either starting equipment or starting gold but now everything that isn't magic is free.
Answer: I could see why you don't like it but that is an entirely subjective opinion and has no basis on RAW or previously made rules. And while I do think that yes we could ignore poisonous ammunition/weapons for the sake of just trying to get damage with only the fighter build and not "outside" sources I think it is wrong to just disregard and play off poison as if it is crazy to talk about it since poison is entirely valid.
I think Malice may be the way to go poison wise, wizard struggles with poison and status effects, and blinded shuts down a lot of spells that require the caster can see. Inhaled poisons just need to cover a 5x5 square to be effective, which means you are targeting an area not a creature, neutralising a high ac. You'd need 7 doses on average to fail a normal save at con 20 plus proficiency though, which is 1750gp iirc.
Poisons exist, yes, but if possible I'd rather not use them, it takes away from the fun. Use them yourself if you like but I find adding equipment beyond weapons for damage makes me feel less satisfied after the final build works.
Flanking is an optional rule, so we can't rely on that being applied.
The Echo Knight comment was intended as separate, I want to try and see if an echo knight character could be viable.
Chilling kinda vibe.
Answer: I agree that just using like 17 pieces of poisoned purple worm ammunition does take away from the fun.
Answer: So are feats… so is the Disarm tactic and firearms/futuristic weapons, so is like half the things we do on this forum as they all use optional stuff since without it the fighter (to my knowledge) is incapable of defeating the wizard. In fact any book beyond the PHB, DMG, MM could be considered optional and if we go that way even the PHB, DMG, and MM are optional since the DM has full say on what is used… So just saying something is optional doesn’t mean we should suddenly completely ignore it. The only way we could disallow Flanking without being intellectually dishonest or biased is by outright banning all optional content and I can tell you now we aren’t going to do that.
Answer: I thought about many builds and the only builds that seemed viable were the Arcane Archer, Echo Knight, Eldritch Knight, and Samurai. Of those four only 2 to my knowledge are capable of actually defeating the Tank Wizard one being the EK and the the other the SSS. And I’ll tell you now I don’t have a single clue how you are gonna get the Echo Knight to deal enough damage to kill the tank wizard because I just don’t think the Echo Knight has enough attacks (10) compared to the Samurai amount (18). And although while I do think it may be possible If I or you spent a good amount of time to figure it out I feel to bridge the damage gap between the SSS and Echo Knight it would be very hard if not outright improbable.
Anyways do tell if I missed or messed up anything.
This is exactly why poison is a terrible way to spend money. Nobody should spend 35 pounds of gold on one fight unless they have an extremely good reason to. Inhaled poison is often worse than just attacking for characters this strong. Injury poison takes tons of gold to apply to multiple pieces of ammo and doesn’t work well on any type of melee weapon. Contact is only good for traps or as an imitation of injury poison. Ingested poison has no use once the fighting starts here, it’s for feeding your enemy to weaken or kill them outside of combat. One dose of purple worm poison is fine. 15 arrows is tens of thousands of gold spent on a single fight and if we allow that much gold on one fight with no permanent benefit then first we should allow low-grade magic items. Nothing crazy, just uncommons or something.
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Everyone uses feats while not everyone uses flanking. Also, the echo knight won’t outperform anything here in the scenarios being considered.
Royalty among the charge kingdom. All will fall before our glorious assault!
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Yeah, but most tables use feats, flanking is rare to be seen in play, as KingOfCharge rightly pointed out. And I'm also going to try not to use guns because again a large number of tables don't use guns.
Probably can't get the damage high enough but we'll find out. If we can get a method of reaching high enough single attack damage that ditching GWF becomes possible you may be able to make up for fewer overall attacks in favour of a greater hit rate. Anyway, I'll see what I come up with.
Chilling kinda vibe.
I would be fine with renaissance firearms being used, they aren’t that much stronger than everything else. Modern and futuristic ones are clearly meant to be noticeably stronger than even +2 weapons. The thing is that renaissance firearms have a listed price, while the others don’t. I am using this to indicate that renaissance firearms are much easier to get than futuristic ones.
Royalty among the charge kingdom. All will fall before our glorious assault!
Quest offer! Enter the deep dungeon here
Ctg’s blood is on the spam filter’s hands
Actually, level 20 echo knight can have 24 attacks, RAW. 4 attacks, action surge, and two Echo's attacks from each space. With Crossbow expert, it's 4 attacks, bonus action 5 plus action surge, 10, and two echoes equal 30 attacks, with a d6 weapon, with sharpshooter feat and with a maxed a dex score a plus 11 to attack, and plus 5 to damage, taking the minus 5 to attack is still a plus 6, and then that's another 10 damage if say, only 10 attacks hit, then that's 160 damage minimum, and since wizards have a low ac, there is a chance that all of them hit, which is a minimum of 480 damage, and then that's not taking into account the fact that the fighter will probably have a +3 weapon, which is a +14 to attack, or with sharpshooters feat, a +9 to attack, and a +3 to damage, means that it's instead a minimum of 570 damage. That's with rolling a 1 on all of the dice, and the fighter can do this twice, not to mention inside of the range of the crossbow, which essentially makes the fighter range 120 feet with the sharpshooter feat, ignoring half, and 3/4 cover, which is 24 squares, in any direction and can still do it up close because of the crossbow expert feat, and then that's not even considering the damage that could happen if there was a critical or on rolling decently well with the dice. Say you roll equal to getting a 3 on every dice. That's another 90 damage, boosting it to 660 damage, nearly one shooting a tarrasque. Max damage is 750 damage, and with a bit of luck, then you can plausibly roll to get 690 damage, and with a bit more, it's very plausible that one could roll a 700, with all the modifiers. So, if the max wizard range for a spell is the same as this fighter(RAW) without spell sniper or eldritch spear gained via feats, then that means that the Wizard would have to try out a higher-level spell, with a much longer range, so I think that against this specific build the wizard will get creamed, with one turn from the fighter, and that will probably one-shot, with 10 hits, because wizard has so little health. I don't know how much health the Tank Wizard has though, but I would assume that this can kill them, since you said 18 attack Samurai could do it, I think that a 30-attack barrage that deals that much damage, would win.
Thank you for listening to my ted talk, 1% percent of people who read all of that.
Huh? 30 attacks?
Level 20 Echo Knight...
Bonus action used for Manifest Echo i.e. create the echo
Attack action = 4 attacks
Unleash Incarnation = 1 additional melee attack from Echo's location
Action Surge for another Attack action = 4 attacks
Unleash Incarnation = 1 additional melee attack from Echo's location
Total = 10 attacks.
First, your bonus action has to be used to make the echo, so you don't have it for an attack. I think our assumption for almost the entirety of this thread is both classes starting from scratch. This is to the benefit of the fighter, since a 20 wizard with prep time would be almost certainly unbeatable.
Second, you only get one bonus action per turn. Action Surge gives you another action, not bonus action. So even if you had your Echo out already, it would only be one more weapon attack with your bonus action.
Third, your Echo doesn't get to take another full Attack action. You can either make one of your four attacks from it's location using Manifest Echo or make one additional melee attack from it's location using Unleash Incarnation. That's it. Echo Knight will get two more attacks because of Unleashed Incarnation, but lose one attack by having to use the bonus action to create the Echo. On net, it's 10 attacks for EK vs 9 attacks for regular fighter utilizing their bonus action for an attack.
I think I did all this right, but if I did something wrong...I know I will hear it with this group! ;)
Answer: Everything looks right.
As for the 30 attacks I am confused how he got there though it seems he thought that with Legion of One and Unleash Incarnate you get one additional attack for each echo but when in fact it is just an single attack from an echo. Then once more it looks like he misinterpreted how the fighter’s action surge and bonus action works.
Then later in his post he talks about how every attack will hit… magic weapons… some other random stuff and ends up with like 600+ damage but either way the entire premise of his post has been incorrect.
Answer: Great response I don’t see any problems (not like you needed someone checking your work though).