If both of them are placed on a circled Arena, it's hard to say who gonna win there but, for sure the Fighter gonna win the first moves, unless the wizard have prepared some debuffs to reduce the fighter's advantage.
The tecniques here is:
not the first one who moves, wins the game....
not who manage the attacks wins the game....
Then, whoever have the right skills, plus the right manouvers, plus the correct weapons/armors/rings/ etcetcetc..... wins the game.
If both of them are placed on a circled Arena, it's hard to say who gonna win there but, for sure the Fighter gonna win the first moves, unless the wizard have prepared some debuffs to reduce the fighter's advantage.
The tecniques here is:
not the first one who moves, wins the game....
not who manage the attacks wins the game....
Then, whoever have the right skills, plus the right manouvers, plus the correct weapons/armors/rings/ etcetcetc..... wins the game.
1st Point you made:
”If both of them are placed on a circled Arena, it's hard to say who gonna win there”
Answer: Well yes if you don’t define the area a like you did it sure is hard to say who would triumph. But if we define the arena it becomes easier so I’ll do so: The arena has a diameter of 200ft, with the apex of 100ft in which a dome encompasses the arena, each player is 15ft away from the middle point as such being 30ft away from each other, they are in line of sight, there is cover (barricades) 25ft to their right and left. Now it is now a set battlefield.
2nd Point you made:
”for sure the Fighter gonna win the first moves, unless the wizard have prepared some debuffs to reduce the fighter's advantage.”
Answer: When you say first moves you mean initiative and when you say advantage you mean none because he doesn’t gain any to initiative or attack rolls inherently. So when you say the fighters gonna win initiative I say not really since I’m playing a Divination Wizard And make you have a bad roll or make me have a good roll.
3rd Point you made:
”The tecniques here is:
not the first one who moves, wins the game....
not who manage the attacks wins the game....”
Answer: No, no really if the Wizard goes first or gets a turn he wins no matter what because Forcecage, invulnerability, any save or suck spell or a save or murder spell like disintegrate (I feel like I’m repeating myself).
4th point you made:
Then, whoever have the right skills, plus the right manouvers, plus the correct weapons/armors/rings/ etcetcetc..... wins the game.
Answer: Yes if the fighter somehow wins initiative, has full magic gear, rolls well, and deals an ungodly amount of damage getting past like a 24-25 Ac then yes the fighter wins. But if the Wizard gets one turn he wins. Just saying we are excluding Magic items (Adds to much variables and there are artifacts and many other stuff so yeah just No).
P.S: The Ac I used is from a character I made using dnd beyond for this discussion to get stats of (used point buy):
8, 15, 15, 15, 8, 8 (Withiut feats and A.S.I’s)
8, 18, 18, 20, 8, 8 (With feats and A.S.I’s)
Race was Hobgoblin as someone pointed it out and I was like WOW that is pretty good for a Wizard. I used 2 feats Moderately Armoured (Dex.) and resilient CON. His Ac is 13 + 4 + 2 + ‘5’ [Mage armor + Dex. + Shield (Via, Moderately Armoured) + Shield spell]. For how I got a shield I bought using the gold from the background.
In a fair fight, Fighter wins if they can do more than 100 damage in one turn. This is not out of question, but also not likely to happen. If the wizard is built correctly for having high AC, they can have a 23 AC for the first round of combat. If the Fighter is specifically designed to do as much damage as possible on each attack, it will either have a halberd/glaive and Polearm Master, or a hand-crossbow/longbow with Sharpshooter (I recommend hand-crossbow with crossbow expert). If they are this build, they will have either a +6 to hit, or a +8 with Archery Fighting Style.
This makes it so the fighter has to get a 17 or higher to hit with Polearm Master (which does more damage on average than the crossbow version). A Sharpshooter Hand-Crossbower has to get a 15 or higher on each attack to hit. If they get 9 attacks in the first turn, then statistically speaking, the Polearm-Master combo will hit only one time, and the Hand-Crossbower will hit twice.
So, the combination I recommend is Hand-Crossbow Sharpshooter with the Archery Fighting Style, you will hit more often, and do quite a lot of damage. But, statistically speaking, the Fighter will not be able to kill the Wizard in the first turn. It is very difficult to do more than 100 damage in 2 hits from a hand-crossbow, even with Sharpshooter.
Now, there is one thing that will guarantee the Wizard will win.
The wizard has to be a Chronurgist. They then take the 5th level spell, Temporal Shunt. This makes it so you can banish the fighter for 1 round as a reaction when they attack you or cast a spell. So, when the fighter uses Action Surge and attacks you, which the fighter will, instead of casting shield, you cast Convergent Future. This happens before the attack actually hits or misses you (you must use it before the attack roll is made), and they have to make a Wisdom saving throw or just waste the rest of their turn and the Action Surge.
You can use Convergent Future on this if you have to. If they succeed on the saving throw, just make them fail, immediately. There's no way for them to succeed against this. The will be gone, they will waste their first Action Surge, they will be gone until the start of their next turn.
While they're gone, you cast Invulnerability or Shapechange so you're now immune to their attacks (one thing is, if they're not allowed magic weapons, Arcane Archer makes their attacks magic). You're immune to their attacks. They literally cannot harm you.
The Wizard wins. If you're a Chronurgist with Temporal Shunt and Invulnerability, and at least one damaging spell, you will win.
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The Chronurgist Wizard wins. No Fighter combination can stop it. Nothing else matters for the Wizard, they just need to be able to choose 3 of their spells, and then they win.
The Chronurgist Wizard wins. No Fighter combination can stop it. Nothing else matters for the Wizard, they just need to be able to choose 3 of their spells, and then they win.
Wizard wins if they're smart.
Yep and a side note:
The highest Ac you can get is 25 AC because if you’re a hobgoblin and take Moderately Armoured and have 20 Dex along with mage armor and a shield + cast a shield spell the Ac becomes 25 (Mage Armor + 20 Dex + A Shield + Shield Spell = 25) and you still have like 140 Hp with having a 16 con.
I just realized that the Chronurgists Convergent Feature can be used multiple times it's powerful (even though you may gain lots of Exhaustion).
Yes, you can use it multiple times. You will get exhaustion, but it doesn't matter if you have Invulnerability up, because you don't need to be able to move or make attack rolls, or have hit points. As long as you have 1 hit point, you're fine.
You can use it up to 5 times, making the fighter immediately fail saving throws against spells.
Chronurgist most likely wins any fight against any wizard.
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Each player starts 15ft from the middle In turn being 30ft from each other
They are in line of sight as battle begins
There is cover but not within 25ft of them so if the want the must move to it
The dome can’t be exited even with divine intervention or the Wish spell
The player parameters are:
Point buy is used.
Yuan-ti, Warforged, and Aarakocra are banned as they are to powerful (I considered Bugbear also)
Any subclass may be used though the recommended are:
For Wizard: Divination, Chronurgist, Bladesinger, War Magic
For Fighter: Battlemaster, Arcane Archer, Samurai, Eldritch Knight
The Wizard and the Fighter (Arcane Archer/ Battlemaster) can choose what they have prepared as in maneuvers, Arcane shots, feats and in the Wizards sake spells and feats
No magic items are permitted as they add a unnecessary level of complexity and the discussion is Fighter vs Wizard not Magic item Vs Magic item
Each has their armor equipped along with weapons if any (in the case of a Wizard, Mage armor is allowed as discussed previously)
For equipment rack character is assumed given the maximum starting gold possible for each class.
They start off rolling initiative (No surprise/hiding)
If any more perimeters are wanted/deemed necessary do tell.
Final note: Wizard Wins because with Divination you can force yourself to win initiative, and Chronurgist can do the same. You may ask why does going first so important and I say: Forcecage or Invulnerability plus more. As for Bladesinger, a Bladesinger with tensers transformation or any buff spell like haste or invulnerability can just out fighter the fighter. And War magic just like Chronurgist can go first (higher initiative) and win the normal way.
EDIT: Sorry for my overly long informative posts
Sincerely
Deathknight/Member of the Blackguard/Druid of the Planes/Keeper of The Ravens Tomes/DM of Mithduwar the ever changing and expanding world of my thoughts
“That's not how the rules work, though. Arcane Arrow's abilities can be triggered after you see the result, Portent triggers before the roll result. So, the Diviner would use Portent to make arrow X miss*, then the Fighter just doesn't use his Banishing Arrow ability. Its only after the arrow hits does the ability activate. So the diviner will never cause a Banishing Arrow to miss, because it never becomes a Banishing Arrow if he makes it miss.”
Answer: Banishing arrow has a charisma save I would use the portent to “succeed against the arrow” as I said and that point is still valid though.
Fair enough, I wasn't thinking that; I'm too lazy to run the numbers on what the chances of a wizard being able to succeed through that option on two individual saves. Though I would like to see the same assumption (make the save) applied to the Fighter's Indomitable feature.
Answer: Use restrain you say but to do so with the grappler feat you must first have them grappled and I’d argue simply grappling wouldn’t stop spellcasting. Additionally to use the special part of the Grappler you must use your action.
Why not? Its been discussed through tweets with the devs, and its a explict rule in the game that, if you can prevent a wizard from completing any of the components of a spell, that spell cannot be cast. If you restrain someone's arms, they cannot cast a spell with somatic components. If a wizard is gagged, they cannot use Vocal components. Is there any reason a grappler cannot gag or arm lock a wizard? Both Mike Mearls and Jeremy Crawford said it was possible.
Lots of people like to ignore the three components of spellcasting, as it normally doesn't matter and slows down play. But they are a rather notable weakness of spellcasting that can be exploited.
Another notable weakness of spellcasting is that Concentration doesn't fail on just taking damage or casting another Concentration spell, but being shaken around (the example in the book is getting hit by a wave of water on a ship). That said, I'm assuming that a level 20 wizard would have taken the feats War Caster and Resilient (Con) to maintain concentration, considering that's pretty standard for a wizard.
previously in the history of the discussion and yes if Boots of flying were given to the wizard and fighter, the fighter would gain a new movement option while a wizard would just save a third level spell slot (Fly).
Fair enough. I seem to recall the discussion now - something along the lines of magic items (including consumables) being a Fighter's equivalent to preparing spells before a match. No prepared spells in exchange for no magic items seems fair enough, though we could also make a distinction between consumables versus prepared spells, and magical equipment for Fighter v Wizards.
Now Mephista respond and prove me wrong or add new things to discuss to why the wizard would lose more than 1/100 fights with the fighter.
The basis of my argument is simple - whomever goes first wins. The fighter can restrain a wizard to prevent spellcasting using Action Surge and grapples, or deal enough damage in a single round to put them down. Now, assuming a standard wizard and not something min-maxed for this discussion, a level 20 high elf or forest gnome wizard is likely to have +3 Dex, Mage Armor, and Shield as a basis, for an AC of 20; I'm also assuming the Fighter will knock the wizard prone, have Samurai, or some other method of advantage generation, considering how easy those are to come by. The Fighter might also have Lucky, for turning more misses into hits (got to love Fighters getting so many feats). Advantage on 8 or 9 attacks also has a high probability of generating a critical for even more damage. I've seen level 20 Fighters consistently do over 150 damage in a single round against monsters with comparable, or higher, ACs when they Action Surge.
Now, is there any reason to assume that a Fighter can't do the above if they go first, and the wizard is within range? I don't see any. The entire basis of the "wizard almost always wins" argument is that the fighter can't do enough damage to kill the wizard in round 1. The only argument against is AC, and that has a lot of holes in it, given the bare bones consideration to accuracy generation methods.
If the DM allows a divination wizard to take Temporal Shunt, they automatically win. Portent requires no reaction, so they can make them automatically fail on the saving throw for Temporal Shunt, making your success immediate.
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If the DM allows a divination wizard to take Temporal Shunt, they automatically win. Portent requires no reaction, so they can make them automatically fail on the saving throw for Temporal Shunt, making your success immediate.
I would allow it as the battle would be a one-shot most likely and if not you could just take the hermit background and make your Discovery be Dunamis/Dunamancy spells and gain access to the list of spells. But yeah as I said Divination wizards are powerful.
“That's not how the rules work, though. Arcane Arrow's abilities can be triggered after you see the result, Portent triggers before the roll result. So, the Diviner would use Portent to make arrow X miss*, then the Fighter just doesn't use his Banishing Arrow ability. Its only after the arrow hits does the ability activate. So the diviner will never cause a Banishing Arrow to miss, because it never becomes a Banishing Arrow if he makes it miss.”
Answer: Banishing arrow has a charisma save I would use the portent to “succeed against the arrow” as I said and that point is still valid though.
Fair enough, I wasn't thinking that; I'm too lazy to run the numbers on what the chances of a wizard being able to succeed through that option on two individual saves. Though I would like to see the same assumption (make the save) applied to the Fighter's Indomitable feature.
Answer: Use restrain you say but to do so with the grappler feat you must first have them grappled and I’d argue simply grappling wouldn’t stop spellcasting. Additionally to use the special part of the Grappler you must use your action.
Why not? Its been discussed through tweets with the devs, and its a explict rule in the game that, if you can prevent a wizard from completing any of the components of a spell, that spell cannot be cast. If you restrain someone's arms, they cannot cast a spell with somatic components. If a wizard is gagged, they cannot use Vocal components. Is there any reason a grappler cannot gag or arm lock a wizard? Both Mike Mearls and Jeremy Crawford said it was possible.
Lots of people like to ignore the three components of spellcasting, as it normally doesn't matter and slows down play. But they are a rather notable weakness of spellcasting that can be exploited.
Another notable weakness of spellcasting is that Concentration doesn't fail on just taking damage or casting another Concentration spell, but being shaken around (the example in the book is getting hit by a wave of water on a ship). That said, I'm assuming that a level 20 wizard would have taken the feats War Caster and Resilient (Con) to maintain concentration, considering that's pretty standard for a wizard.
previously in the history of the discussion and yes if Boots of flying were given to the wizard and fighter, the fighter would gain a new movement option while a wizard would just save a third level spell slot (Fly).
Fair enough. I seem to recall the discussion now - something along the lines of magic items (including consumables) being a Fighter's equivalent to preparing spells before a match. No prepared spells in exchange for no magic items seems fair enough, though we could also make a distinction between consumables versus prepared spells, and magical equipment for Fighter v Wizards.
Now Mephista respond and prove me wrong or add new things to discuss to why the wizard would lose more than 1/100 fights with the fighter.
The basis of my argument is simple - whomever goes first wins. The fighter can restrain a wizard to prevent spellcasting using Action Surge and grapples, or deal enough damage in a single round to put them down. Now, assuming a standard wizard and not something min-maxed for this discussion, a level 20 high elf or forest gnome wizard is likely to have +3 Dex, Mage Armor, and Shield as a basis, for an AC of 20; I'm also assuming the Fighter will knock the wizard prone, have Samurai, or some other method of advantage generation, considering how easy those are to come by. The Fighter might also have Lucky, for turning more misses into hits (got to love Fighters getting so many feats). Advantage on 8 or 9 attacks also has a high probability of generating a critical for even more damage. I've seen level 20 Fighters consistently do over 150 damage in a single round against monsters with comparable, or higher, ACs when they Action Surge.
Now, is there any reason to assume that a Fighter can't do the above if they go first, and the wizard is within range? I don't see any. The entire basis of the "wizard almost always wins" argument is that the fighter can't do enough damage to kill the wizard in round 1. The only argument against is AC, and that has a lot of holes in it, given the bare bones consideration to accuracy generation methods.
Point 1:
”Fair enough, I wasn't thinking that; I'm too lazy to run the numbers on what the chances of a wizard being able to succeed through that option on two individual saves. Though I would like to see the same assumption (make the save) applied to the Fighter's Indomitable feature.”
Answer: The arrows shot would be on two different turns in which the wizard would be able to cast and most likely win the game. Side note: Indomitable is not a auto save just a reroll while portent is a auto save. Additionally how I think the 3 portent rolls are about 5ish, 10ish, 15ish.
Point 2:
”Why not? Its been discussed through tweets with the devs, and its a explict rule in the game that, if you can prevent a wizard from completing any of the components of a spell, that spell cannot be cast. If you restrain someone's arms, they cannot cast a spell with somatic components. If a wizard is gagged, they cannot use Vocal components. Is there any reason a grappler cannot gag or arm lock a wizard? Both Mike Mearls and Jeremy Crawford said it was possible.”
Answer: As I said I think with the Grappler feat you could do it but not with just a single grapple I think you’d have to Restrain the Wizard for no somatic components and with the gagging I’d find that hard especially in a combat situation. But yes I do think it is possible but I’m saying you would have to “restrain someone's arms” and I’m saying it would take multiple turns to do so and not just grapple BOTH of his arms and hands and in any case it fully depends who goes first and I wholeheartedly believe a divination Wizard or Chronurgist Wizard would be able to go first easily and cast a fight ending spell.
Point 3:
“Lots of people like to ignore the three components of spellcasting, as it normally doesn't matter and slows down play. But they are a rather notable weakness of spellcasting that can be exploited.”
Answer: Who does that, because I only ignore them if I have a focus in hand and the material components aren’t consumed or have a gold cost. And per say I DM I’d call for a stealth/slight of hand check if they wanna whisper, mumble or limit the somatic movements the spell to get it off subtly/under restraints like perhaps from a fighter. And I do get they can be exploited a bit but not easily.
Point 4:
“Another notable weakness of spellcasting is that Concentration doesn't fail on just taking damage or casting another Concentration spell, but being shaken around (the example in the book is getting hit by a wave of water on a ship). That said, I'm assuming that a level 20 wizard would have taken the feats War Caster and Resilient (Con) to maintain concentration, considering that's pretty standard for a wizard.”
Answer: tbh and this might be controversial I only take Resilient Con since it’s way better than War caster because the fixed bonus is better than advantage also spending two feats to mostly only help concentration saves is to much for me and I’d rather take another feat since a Wizard doesn’t have weapons/occupied hands past perhaps a focus and a shield (Moderately Armored for a hobgoblin Wizard).
Point 5:
”Fair enough. I seem to recall the discussion now - something along the lines of magic items (including consumables) being a Fighter's equivalent to preparing spells before a match. No prepared spells in exchange for no magic items seems fair enough, though we could also make a distinction between consumables versus prepared spells, and magical equipment for Fighter v Wizards.”
Answer: That wasn’t really the conversation, the conversation was just give the fighter magic items and he’ll rekt the Wizard then the others were like then you'd have to give the Wizard magic items and it gets to complex with adding magic items.
You said: “No prepared spells in exchange for no magic items seems fair enough”
I say: Spellcasting is equivalent to a Battlemasters maneuvers or a arcane archers Arcane shots or a Eldritch Knight’s own spellcasting (Ie. they should both have whatever they want prepared for battle but no prep if you know what I mean). I say that the wizard can prepare his required spells while the fighter can prepare whatever he can for his subclass/features.
Point 6:
”The basis of my argument is simple - whomever goes first wins.”
Answer: Divination or Chronurgist and kinda War magic auto win as they can attain a high roll to go first. With Chronurgist and War magic they can add their Int to Initiative rolls (While Chronurgist and divination can force a roll).
Point 7:
”The fighter can restrain a wizard to prevent spellcasting using Action Surge and grapples, or deal enough damage in a single round to put them down. Now, assuming a standard wizard and not something min-maxed for this discussion, a level 20 high elf or forest gnome wizard is likely to have +3 Dex, Mage Armor, and Shield as a basis, for an AC of 20; I'm also assuming the Fighter will knock the wizard prone, have Samurai, or some other method of advantage generation, considering how easy those are to come by. The Fighter might also have Lucky, for turning more misses into hits (got to love Fighters getting so many feats). Advantage on 8 or 9 attacks also has a high probability of generating a critical for even more damage. I've seen level 20 Fighters consistently do over 150 damage in a single round against monsters with comparable, or higher, ACs when they Action Surge.
Now, is there any reason to assume that a Fighter can't do the above if they go first, and the wizard is within range? I don't see any. The entire basis of the "wizard almost always wins" argument is that the fighter can't do enough damage to kill the wizard in round 1. The only argument against is AC, and that has a lot of holes in it, given the bare bones consideration to accuracy generation methods.”
Answer: Assuming Mage armor + 16 Dex + Shield, AC = 21, this is off of yours. Assuming 16 con HP = 142hp. Assuming polearm master and great weapon master at advantage (Advantage is a of net about + 5) so you have +11 at a 21 AC with 8 normal attacks and one bonus attack. The attack was 1d10 + 5 + 10 averaging 20.5 times that by eight is 164 + the bonus attack is 1d4 + 5 + 10 averaging 17.5 on top of 164 = 181.5 and then for chance to hit is 50% so that equals = 90.75. Wizard Hp = 142 - 91 (rounded up because why not) = 51hp. I don’t know if I did the math correctly but I think I did so if I didn’t please correct me and show me the ways of the force.
Also the fighter would never go first because I’m ether a divination or Chronurgist Wizard or even just maybe a war magic Wizard.
Did I miss anything Mephista? Because by the looks of it the Wizard wins.
Portent is not an auto save, its a reroll that you make at the beginning of the day instead of in the moment. Its entirely possible to not have anything high enough to work as a save, after all. Portent is a good ability, but its not an auto-anything. Its still very possible to fail with it.
You're lacking the use of the Lucky feat, Martial Adapt, or Mage Slayer, which grants more attacks or can turn misses into hits. This should involve at least one critical as well. A level 20 Fighter should have enough abilities to boost their accuracy up to hitting virtually every time.
Portent isn't a guarantee on anything, but it is the closest thing to a guaranteed win that we'll get in this discussion. There is a chance that you won't get any rolls high enough or low enough to be useful in the fight, but it is the most likely way for an instant success in combat.
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Portent is not an auto save, its a reroll that you make at the beginning of the day instead of in the moment. Its entirely possible to not have anything high enough to work as a save, after all. Portent is a good ability, but its not an auto-anything. Its still very possible to fail with it.
You're lacking the use of the Lucky feat, Martial Adapt, or Mage Slayer, which grants more attacks or can turn misses into hits. This should involve at least one critical as well. A level 20 Fighter should have enough abilities to boost their accuracy up to hitting virtually every time.
Portent isn't a guarantee on anything, but it is the closest thing to a guaranteed win that we'll get in this discussion. There is a chance that you won't get any rolls high enough or low enough to be useful in the fight, but it is the most likely way for an instant success in combat.
Guys I’ve said that the portents are 5ish, 10ish, and 15ish and when I say auto save I mean using the 15 to get a higher average compared to an average 10 and “auto save”.
And for the calculation I had every attack at advantage by giving a set bonus of +5 so yeah and if you are to get lucky, and all that you would go down on base stats.
And like I said I did the base of damage plus I’m no master of math and do not know how to calculate rolling a nat 20. And to be honest I think I did well with the calculation.
Advantage equals out to be about +5.
The reason portent is 5, 10, 15, is because each roll represents a luck, 5= Below average, 10= Average, 15= Above average.
Yes, a 5ish score, a 10is score, and a 15ish score are fairly accurate stats for portent, that's not how statistics works. The fact that they are random means that nothing is guaranteed. That's not a thing that you can just assume will happen, because then you might roll 3 portents that are all 11's, which makes it so you can't succeed on any athletics/acrobatics checks against grappling or saving throws, and the fighter won't autofail any spell saving throws.
Portent numbers aren't a thing you can assume. That would be a fallacy.
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If both of them are placed on a circled Arena, it's hard to say who gonna win there but, for sure the Fighter gonna win the first moves, unless the wizard have prepared some debuffs to reduce the fighter's advantage.
The tecniques here is:
not the first one who moves, wins the game....
not who manage the attacks wins the game....
Then, whoever have the right skills, plus the right manouvers, plus the correct weapons/armors/rings/ etcetcetc..... wins the game.
My Ready-to-rock&roll chars:
Dertinus Tristany // Amilcar Barca // Vicenç Sacrarius // Oriol Deulofeu // Grovtuk
1st Point you made:
”If both of them are placed on a circled Arena, it's hard to say who gonna win there”
Answer: Well yes if you don’t define the area a like you did it sure is hard to say who would triumph. But if we define the arena it becomes easier so I’ll do so: The arena has a diameter of 200ft, with the apex of 100ft in which a dome encompasses the arena, each player is 15ft away from the middle point as such being 30ft away from each other, they are in line of sight, there is cover (barricades) 25ft to their right and left. Now it is now a set battlefield.
2nd Point you made:
”for sure the Fighter gonna win the first moves, unless the wizard have prepared some debuffs to reduce the fighter's advantage.”
Answer: When you say first moves you mean initiative and when you say advantage you mean none because he doesn’t gain any to initiative or attack rolls inherently. So when you say the fighters gonna win initiative I say not really since I’m playing a Divination Wizard And make you have a bad roll or make me have a good roll.
3rd Point you made:
”The tecniques here is:
not the first one who moves, wins the game....
not who manage the attacks wins the game....”
Answer: No, no really if the Wizard goes first or gets a turn he wins no matter what because Forcecage, invulnerability, any save or suck spell or a save or murder spell like disintegrate (I feel like I’m repeating myself).
4th point you made:
Then, whoever have the right skills, plus the right manouvers, plus the correct weapons/armors/rings/ etcetcetc..... wins the game.
Answer: Yes if the fighter somehow wins initiative, has full magic gear, rolls well, and deals an ungodly amount of damage getting past like a 24-25 Ac then yes the fighter wins. But if the Wizard gets one turn he wins. Just saying we are excluding Magic items (Adds to much variables and there are artifacts and many other stuff so yeah just No).
P.S: The Ac I used is from a character I made using dnd beyond for this discussion to get stats of (used point buy):
8, 15, 15, 15, 8, 8 (Withiut feats and A.S.I’s)
8, 18, 18, 20, 8, 8 (With feats and A.S.I’s)
Race was Hobgoblin as someone pointed it out and I was like WOW that is pretty good for a Wizard. I used 2 feats Moderately Armoured (Dex.) and resilient CON. His Ac is 13 + 4 + 2 + ‘5’ [Mage armor + Dex. + Shield (Via, Moderately Armoured) + Shield spell]. For how I got a shield I bought using the gold from the background.
I've said this before, and will say it again:
In a fair fight, Fighter wins if they can do more than 100 damage in one turn. This is not out of question, but also not likely to happen. If the wizard is built correctly for having high AC, they can have a 23 AC for the first round of combat. If the Fighter is specifically designed to do as much damage as possible on each attack, it will either have a halberd/glaive and Polearm Master, or a hand-crossbow/longbow with Sharpshooter (I recommend hand-crossbow with crossbow expert). If they are this build, they will have either a +6 to hit, or a +8 with Archery Fighting Style.
This makes it so the fighter has to get a 17 or higher to hit with Polearm Master (which does more damage on average than the crossbow version). A Sharpshooter Hand-Crossbower has to get a 15 or higher on each attack to hit. If they get 9 attacks in the first turn, then statistically speaking, the Polearm-Master combo will hit only one time, and the Hand-Crossbower will hit twice.
So, the combination I recommend is Hand-Crossbow Sharpshooter with the Archery Fighting Style, you will hit more often, and do quite a lot of damage. But, statistically speaking, the Fighter will not be able to kill the Wizard in the first turn. It is very difficult to do more than 100 damage in 2 hits from a hand-crossbow, even with Sharpshooter.
Now, there is one thing that will guarantee the Wizard will win.
The wizard has to be a Chronurgist. They then take the 5th level spell, Temporal Shunt. This makes it so you can banish the fighter for 1 round as a reaction when they attack you or cast a spell. So, when the fighter uses Action Surge and attacks you, which the fighter will, instead of casting shield, you cast Convergent Future. This happens before the attack actually hits or misses you (you must use it before the attack roll is made), and they have to make a Wisdom saving throw or just waste the rest of their turn and the Action Surge.
You can use Convergent Future on this if you have to. If they succeed on the saving throw, just make them fail, immediately. There's no way for them to succeed against this. The will be gone, they will waste their first Action Surge, they will be gone until the start of their next turn.
While they're gone, you cast Invulnerability or Shapechange so you're now immune to their attacks (one thing is, if they're not allowed magic weapons, Arcane Archer makes their attacks magic). You're immune to their attacks. They literally cannot harm you.
The Wizard wins. If you're a Chronurgist with Temporal Shunt and Invulnerability, and at least one damaging spell, you will win.
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The Chronurgist Wizard wins. No Fighter combination can stop it. Nothing else matters for the Wizard, they just need to be able to choose 3 of their spells, and then they win.
Wizard wins if they're smart.
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Yep and a side note:
The highest Ac you can get is 25 AC because if you’re a hobgoblin and take Moderately Armoured and have 20 Dex along with mage armor and a shield + cast a shield spell the Ac becomes 25 (Mage Armor + 20 Dex + A Shield + Shield Spell = 25) and you still have like 140 Hp with having a 16 con.
Sorry, quick correction on something I said.
You can't use Convergent Future on Temporal Shunt because they're both reactions.
The fighter loses if it fails the Temporal Shunt saving throw and can't counterspell (only eldritch knight could).
Wizard will most likely win.
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Forcecage is the bane of a fighter.
I just realized that the Chronurgists Convergent Feature can be used multiple times it's powerful (even though you may gain lots of Exhaustion).
Yes, you can use it multiple times. You will get exhaustion, but it doesn't matter if you have Invulnerability up, because you don't need to be able to move or make attack rolls, or have hit points. As long as you have 1 hit point, you're fine.
You can use it up to 5 times, making the fighter immediately fail saving throws against spells.
Chronurgist most likely wins any fight against any wizard.
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I think the perfect arena is:
200ft diameter dome
100ft high at dome apex
Each player starts 15ft from the middle In turn being 30ft from each other
They are in line of sight as battle begins
There is cover but not within 25ft of them so if the want the must move to it
The dome can’t be exited even with divine intervention or the Wish spell
The player parameters are:
Point buy is used.
Yuan-ti, Warforged, and Aarakocra are banned as they are to powerful (I considered Bugbear also)
Any subclass may be used though the recommended are:
For Wizard: Divination, Chronurgist, Bladesinger, War Magic
For Fighter: Battlemaster, Arcane Archer, Samurai, Eldritch Knight
The Wizard and the Fighter (Arcane Archer/ Battlemaster) can choose what they have prepared as in maneuvers, Arcane shots, feats and in the Wizards sake spells and feats
No magic items are permitted as they add a unnecessary level of complexity and the discussion is Fighter vs Wizard not Magic item Vs Magic item
Each has their armor equipped along with weapons if any (in the case of a Wizard, Mage armor is allowed as discussed previously)
For equipment rack character is assumed given the maximum starting gold possible for each class.
They start off rolling initiative (No surprise/hiding)
If any more perimeters are wanted/deemed necessary do tell.
Final note: Wizard Wins because with Divination you can force yourself to win initiative, and Chronurgist can do the same. You may ask why does going first so important and I say: Forcecage or Invulnerability plus more. As for Bladesinger, a Bladesinger with tensers transformation or any buff spell like haste or invulnerability can just out fighter the fighter. And War magic just like Chronurgist can go first (higher initiative) and win the normal way.
EDIT: Sorry for my overly long informative posts
Sincerely
Deathknight/Member of the Blackguard/Druid of the Planes/Keeper of The Ravens Tomes/DM of Mithduwar the ever changing and expanding world of my thoughts
Divination Wizard can portent the fighters initiative to be lower almost ensuring a win.
Fair enough, I wasn't thinking that; I'm too lazy to run the numbers on what the chances of a wizard being able to succeed through that option on two individual saves. Though I would like to see the same assumption (make the save) applied to the Fighter's Indomitable feature.
Why not? Its been discussed through tweets with the devs, and its a explict rule in the game that, if you can prevent a wizard from completing any of the components of a spell, that spell cannot be cast. If you restrain someone's arms, they cannot cast a spell with somatic components. If a wizard is gagged, they cannot use Vocal components. Is there any reason a grappler cannot gag or arm lock a wizard? Both Mike Mearls and Jeremy Crawford said it was possible.
Lots of people like to ignore the three components of spellcasting, as it normally doesn't matter and slows down play. But they are a rather notable weakness of spellcasting that can be exploited.
Another notable weakness of spellcasting is that Concentration doesn't fail on just taking damage or casting another Concentration spell, but being shaken around (the example in the book is getting hit by a wave of water on a ship). That said, I'm assuming that a level 20 wizard would have taken the feats War Caster and Resilient (Con) to maintain concentration, considering that's pretty standard for a wizard.
Fair enough. I seem to recall the discussion now - something along the lines of magic items (including consumables) being a Fighter's equivalent to preparing spells before a match. No prepared spells in exchange for no magic items seems fair enough, though we could also make a distinction between consumables versus prepared spells, and magical equipment for Fighter v Wizards.
The basis of my argument is simple - whomever goes first wins. The fighter can restrain a wizard to prevent spellcasting using Action Surge and grapples, or deal enough damage in a single round to put them down. Now, assuming a standard wizard and not something min-maxed for this discussion, a level 20 high elf or forest gnome wizard is likely to have +3 Dex, Mage Armor, and Shield as a basis, for an AC of 20; I'm also assuming the Fighter will knock the wizard prone, have Samurai, or some other method of advantage generation, considering how easy those are to come by. The Fighter might also have Lucky, for turning more misses into hits (got to love Fighters getting so many feats). Advantage on 8 or 9 attacks also has a high probability of generating a critical for even more damage. I've seen level 20 Fighters consistently do over 150 damage in a single round against monsters with comparable, or higher, ACs when they Action Surge.
Now, is there any reason to assume that a Fighter can't do the above if they go first, and the wizard is within range? I don't see any. The entire basis of the "wizard almost always wins" argument is that the fighter can't do enough damage to kill the wizard in round 1. The only argument against is AC, and that has a lot of holes in it, given the bare bones consideration to accuracy generation methods.
If the DM allows a divination wizard to take Temporal Shunt, they automatically win. Portent requires no reaction, so they can make them automatically fail on the saving throw for Temporal Shunt, making your success immediate.
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I would allow it as the battle would be a one-shot most likely and if not you could just take the hermit background and make your Discovery be Dunamis/Dunamancy spells and gain access to the list of spells. But yeah as I said Divination wizards are powerful.
Point 1:
”Fair enough, I wasn't thinking that; I'm too lazy to run the numbers on what the chances of a wizard being able to succeed through that option on two individual saves. Though I would like to see the same assumption (make the save) applied to the Fighter's Indomitable feature.”
Answer: The arrows shot would be on two different turns in which the wizard would be able to cast and most likely win the game. Side note: Indomitable is not a auto save just a reroll while portent is a auto save. Additionally how I think the 3 portent rolls are about 5ish, 10ish, 15ish.
Point 2:
”Why not? Its been discussed through tweets with the devs, and its a explict rule in the game that, if you can prevent a wizard from completing any of the components of a spell, that spell cannot be cast. If you restrain someone's arms, they cannot cast a spell with somatic components. If a wizard is gagged, they cannot use Vocal components. Is there any reason a grappler cannot gag or arm lock a wizard? Both Mike Mearls and Jeremy Crawford said it was possible.”
Answer: As I said I think with the Grappler feat you could do it but not with just a single grapple I think you’d have to Restrain the Wizard for no somatic components and with the gagging I’d find that hard especially in a combat situation. But yes I do think it is possible but I’m saying you would have to “restrain someone's arms” and I’m saying it would take multiple turns to do so and not just grapple BOTH of his arms and hands and in any case it fully depends who goes first and I wholeheartedly believe a divination Wizard or Chronurgist Wizard would be able to go first easily and cast a fight ending spell.
Point 3:
“Lots of people like to ignore the three components of spellcasting, as it normally doesn't matter and slows down play. But they are a rather notable weakness of spellcasting that can be exploited.”
Answer: Who does that, because I only ignore them if I have a focus in hand and the material components aren’t consumed or have a gold cost. And per say I DM I’d call for a stealth/slight of hand check if they wanna whisper, mumble or limit the somatic movements the spell to get it off subtly/under restraints like perhaps from a fighter. And I do get they can be exploited a bit but not easily.
Point 4:
“Another notable weakness of spellcasting is that Concentration doesn't fail on just taking damage or casting another Concentration spell, but being shaken around (the example in the book is getting hit by a wave of water on a ship). That said, I'm assuming that a level 20 wizard would have taken the feats War Caster and Resilient (Con) to maintain concentration, considering that's pretty standard for a wizard.”
Answer: tbh and this might be controversial I only take Resilient Con since it’s way better than War caster because the fixed bonus is better than advantage also spending two feats to mostly only help concentration saves is to much for me and I’d rather take another feat since a Wizard doesn’t have weapons/occupied hands past perhaps a focus and a shield (Moderately Armored for a hobgoblin Wizard).
Point 5:
”Fair enough. I seem to recall the discussion now - something along the lines of magic items (including consumables) being a Fighter's equivalent to preparing spells before a match. No prepared spells in exchange for no magic items seems fair enough, though we could also make a distinction between consumables versus prepared spells, and magical equipment for Fighter v Wizards.”
Answer: That wasn’t really the conversation, the conversation was just give the fighter magic items and he’ll rekt the Wizard then the others were like then you'd have to give the Wizard magic items and it gets to complex with adding magic items.
You said: “No prepared spells in exchange for no magic items seems fair enough”
I say: Spellcasting is equivalent to a Battlemasters maneuvers or a arcane archers Arcane shots or a Eldritch Knight’s own spellcasting (Ie. they should both have whatever they want prepared for battle but no prep if you know what I mean). I say that the wizard can prepare his required spells while the fighter can prepare whatever he can for his subclass/features.
Point 6:
”The basis of my argument is simple - whomever goes first wins.”
Answer: Divination or Chronurgist and kinda War magic auto win as they can attain a high roll to go first. With Chronurgist and War magic they can add their Int to Initiative rolls (While Chronurgist and divination can force a roll).
Point 7:
”The fighter can restrain a wizard to prevent spellcasting using Action Surge and grapples, or deal enough damage in a single round to put them down. Now, assuming a standard wizard and not something min-maxed for this discussion, a level 20 high elf or forest gnome wizard is likely to have +3 Dex, Mage Armor, and Shield as a basis, for an AC of 20; I'm also assuming the Fighter will knock the wizard prone, have Samurai, or some other method of advantage generation, considering how easy those are to come by. The Fighter might also have Lucky, for turning more misses into hits (got to love Fighters getting so many feats). Advantage on 8 or 9 attacks also has a high probability of generating a critical for even more damage. I've seen level 20 Fighters consistently do over 150 damage in a single round against monsters with comparable, or higher, ACs when they Action Surge.
Now, is there any reason to assume that a Fighter can't do the above if they go first, and the wizard is within range? I don't see any. The entire basis of the "wizard almost always wins" argument is that the fighter can't do enough damage to kill the wizard in round 1. The only argument against is AC, and that has a lot of holes in it, given the bare bones consideration to accuracy generation methods.”
Answer: Assuming Mage armor + 16 Dex + Shield, AC = 21, this is off of yours. Assuming 16 con HP = 142hp. Assuming polearm master and great weapon master at advantage (Advantage is a of net about + 5) so you have +11 at a 21 AC with 8 normal attacks and one bonus attack. The attack was 1d10 + 5 + 10 averaging 20.5 times that by eight is 164 + the bonus attack is 1d4 + 5 + 10 averaging 17.5 on top of 164 = 181.5 and then for chance to hit is 50% so that equals = 90.75. Wizard Hp = 142 - 91 (rounded up because why not) = 51hp. I don’t know if I did the math correctly but I think I did so if I didn’t please correct me and show me the ways of the force.
Also the fighter would never go first because I’m ether a divination or Chronurgist Wizard or even just maybe a war magic Wizard.
Did I miss anything Mephista? Because by the looks of it the Wizard wins.
Portent is not an auto save, its a reroll that you make at the beginning of the day instead of in the moment. Its entirely possible to not have anything high enough to work as a save, after all. Portent is a good ability, but its not an auto-anything. Its still very possible to fail with it.
You're lacking the use of the Lucky feat, Martial Adapt, or Mage Slayer, which grants more attacks or can turn misses into hits. This should involve at least one critical as well. A level 20 Fighter should have enough abilities to boost their accuracy up to hitting virtually every time.
Portent isn't a guarantee on anything, but it is the closest thing to a guaranteed win that we'll get in this discussion. There is a chance that you won't get any rolls high enough or low enough to be useful in the fight, but it is the most likely way for an instant success in combat.
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Guys I’ve said that the portents are 5ish, 10ish, and 15ish and when I say auto save I mean using the 15 to get a higher average compared to an average 10 and “auto save”.
And for the calculation I had every attack at advantage by giving a set bonus of +5 so yeah and if you are to get lucky, and all that you would go down on base stats.
And like I said I did the base of damage plus I’m no master of math and do not know how to calculate rolling a nat 20. And to be honest I think I did well with the calculation.
Advantage equals out to be about +5.
The reason portent is 5, 10, 15, is because each roll represents a luck, 5= Below average, 10= Average, 15= Above average.
Yes, a 5ish score, a 10is score, and a 15ish score are fairly accurate stats for portent, that's not how statistics works. The fact that they are random means that nothing is guaranteed. That's not a thing that you can just assume will happen, because then you might roll 3 portents that are all 11's, which makes it so you can't succeed on any athletics/acrobatics checks against grappling or saving throws, and the fighter won't autofail any spell saving throws.
Portent numbers aren't a thing you can assume. That would be a fallacy.
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I could just roll three numbers right now but you probably wouldn’t believe me but I’ll do it any way
The Numbers are:
11
12
18