Using sword and board is one thing considering that 24 has I believe a general shield feat that allows a shield bash as an additional attack once per turn during the Attack Action, and attempts to combine it with Dual Wielding or other features to try to prevent the loss of bonus damage and gain more actions then are possible is where the problem lies.
If you want more attacks, wielding two different weapons in different hands is the way, simply because the design of shields is as Armor not as a Weapon. Different sized shields could have different weights and abilities depending on construction, and that starts to bring the game back into a 3/3.5 level of complexity.
But attempting to have your cake and eat it alone isn’t how the system works, its one or the other.
If you’re using a shield, you give up a bit of offense for a bit of defense, if your Dual Wielding you give up a bit of defense for a bit of offense. But you really can’t have both at the same time.
Setting aside the argument about whether an ASI can select a Fighting Style Category feat, let me put my proposal another way:
Option 1 is clearly allowed, and even advertised as an optimal build option. Option 2 is valid only if the DM rules that a Shield is considered to be a weapon specifically for DW, but not for Dueling. Mechanically, the difference is that Option 2 does less damage and requires 2 additional feats, but as a result is not limited to just Spear/Quarterstaff. Option 1 is objectively better because Polearm Master has both offensive and defensive characteristics (attack a foe entering a threatened space) and the freedom to select 2 other feats (1 Origin and 1 ASI).
The argument of "you sacrifice offense for defense when holding a shield" argument does not make any sense to me when there is an objective and advertised build that explicitly gets both for less investment.
Edit to add: Cannot fix DDB forum formating.
Both are allowed, shield master feat gives a shield bash attack as part of the attack action like nick does.( or close enough)
Though for a level six fighter, you certainly left a lot off the table as far as worth.
By dual wielding, by 6th level I’m doing far more in damage than the shield and weapon, meaning I’m eliminating the potential influx of reciprocal damage and thus reducing the need for heavier armor.
With a shield your action economy is limited by shield use options, while the weapon juggernaut is limited by current weapon selection and relative mastery thereof.
Defense shaves off offense, Offense shaves off defense.
If i can eliminate a threat faster than normal the need to defend more is lessened.
If I have to defend more and wait to attempt to grind down a threat by insuring its harder to hit me, then I potentially leave a chance that threat will wait; find a weakness and exploit it the second it’s available.
Sorry but if you need to burn a 4th level feat to become effective, your already behind the curve and the reason is that shield that not only holds back damage but potential as well.
If you are duel wielding daggers at level 5, you are getting an average of .375 dpr extra without fighting styles, or, still .375 actually, with. Two AC is much better than .375 added dpr
If by level 5 you’re still using daggers, sure. But as a fighter your weapon selection at level 4 with the taking of the Dual Wielding Feat opens that .375 dpr you say is gained just from the use of dagger’s ( 1d4 vs 1d6 or at 4th and above possibly 1d8) and the math is what exactly compared to just a static +2 and little to no options for tactical offensive engagement?
With dual wielding covering that +2 is far easier than attempting to keep it while juggling to get your next weapon in hand. Toss in weapon mastery that eases the load on battle maneuvers by granting features that normally require the expenditure of said resources, and what do the numbers say about that now?
And remember your spear and board is just coming online by 4th, while the dual wielding weapon master is going through the options to make the most of their resources and inflict the greatest distress for the least amount of effort.
Numbers start looking favorable to the opponent with the greater number of resources and can utilize them in a far greater and efficient way than just pecking around and hiding in your shell.
And I am fairly curious as to the actual gain between different weapons that qualify for the light weapon dual wielding, vs weapon selection when having the 4th level Dual Wielding Feat both without weapon mastery and with weapon mastery.
Fairly sure the mastery’s add a fair bit more than most realize. As they say two weapons are better than one.
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" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
The reason I didn't include duel wielder is that the person I quoted said it was unnecessary. Also, you're right weapon mastery would affect the damage, but that would be very annoying to calculate. With duel wielder however, if you aren't switching out weapons, daggers are better for the additional attack. Math:
Level 5 fighter with duel wielder and two weapon fighting: .65(6.5 + 6.5 + 6.5 + 6.5) = 16.9
Level 5 fighter with dueling and PM: .65(9.5 + 9.5 + 8.5) = 17.875
It seems pretty clear that the spear build is better.
The reason I didn't include duel wielder is that the person I quoted said it was unnecessary. Also, you're right weapon mastery would affect the damage, but that would be very annoying to calculate. With duel wielder however, if you aren't switching out weapons, daggers are better for the additional attack. Math:
Level 5 fighter with duel wielder and two weapon fighting: .65(6.5 + 6.5 + 6.5 + 6.5) = 16.9
Level 5 fighter with dueling and PM: .65(9.5 + 9.5 + 8.5) = 17.875
It seems pretty clear that the spear build is better.
Light weapons include more than just daggers when the entire weapon pallet is available. And you forgot that by 5th level extra attack adds two attacks when surging and the bonus action is best taken last.( surge doesn’t reset BA like it first did, still upset that single fighter only feature of Action Surge was taken out because it pushed taking a single level and multiclassing till level 2.[ how many times you’ve played a game to a full 20 level character? If you barely reach it, no harm in improving the little you might get to maximize the chances you make it further.])
Curious as to how you calculated the 65% hit ratio, just a +2 proficiency vs shield or was level proficiency vs shield considered given a relative standard +3 weapon ability score modifier?( STR? or DEX?)
[ Dual wielding feat adds one to relative weapon ability score, and potentially increases it to a level where the average rounds up to +3.]
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
The reason I didn't include duel wielder is that the person I quoted said it was unnecessary. Also, you're right weapon mastery would affect the damage, but that would be very annoying to calculate. With duel wielder however, if you aren't switching out weapons, daggers are better for the additional attack. Math:
Level 5 fighter with duel wielder and two weapon fighting: .65(6.5 + 6.5 + 6.5 + 6.5) = 16.9
Level 5 fighter with dueling and PM: .65(9.5 + 9.5 + 8.5) = 17.875
It seems pretty clear that the spear build is better.
Light weapons include more than just daggers when the entire weapon pallet is available. And you forgot that by 5th level extra attack adds two attacks when surging and the bonus action is best taken last.( surge doesn’t reset BA like it first did, still upset that single fighter only feature of Action Surge was taken out because it pushed taking a single level and multiclassing till level 2.[ how many times you’ve played a game to a full 20 level character? If you barely reach it, no harm in improving the little you might get to maximize the chances you make it further.])
Curious as to how you calculated the 65% hit ratio, just a +2 proficiency vs shield or was level proficiency vs shield considered given a relative standard +3 weapon ability score modifier?( STR? or DEX?)
[ Dual wielding feat adds one to relative weapon ability score, and potentially increases it to a level where the average rounds up to +3.]
As I said, daggers, or clubs, are the best light weapon in an optimized build, as nick allows you to make an additional attack when combined with duel wielder.
I did not take into account action surge. (which would actually be better with the spear build)
65% is the most commonly assumed hit rate, and I believe it was in the 2014 dmg. It doesn't really matter in this case anyways, as we are comparing attacks with the same hit rate.
I’m sure anyone can see the dagger club optimization is the absolute best combo for dual wielding weapons especially if your Fifth level fighter is utilizing the fourth level feat of dual wielding and completely ignoring the vast array of tools of the trade that obviously can’t work in any other way as to demonstrate the actual value if discussed proposal.
And exactly what is the complete formula you use to calculate the numbers you define as optimal in this oh so optimal dagger club dual wielding master of death?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
I’m sure anyone can see the dagger club optimization is the absolute best combo for dual wielding weapons especially if your Fifth level fighter is utilizing the fourth level feat of dual wielding and completely ignoring the vast array of tools of the trade that obviously can’t work in any other way as to demonstrate the actual value if discussed proposal.
And exactly what is the complete formula you use to calculate the numbers you define as optimal in this oh so optimal dagger club dual wielding master of death?
I don't really get what you're saying. Do you have a better option than a strait 33% increase in dpr?
Here is the explained math:
.65 - assumed hit rate
6.5 damage per attack - 2.5 + 4 dex/str
4 attacks - attack, extra attack, nick, dual wielder
Therefore, the final calculation is .65*4*6.5. Plugging that into a calculator you get 16.9.
I’m sure anyone can see the dagger club optimization is the absolute best combo for dual wielding weapons especially if your Fifth level fighter is utilizing the fourth level feat of dual wielding and completely ignoring the vast array of tools of the trade that obviously can’t work in any other way as to demonstrate the actual value if discussed proposal.
And exactly what is the complete formula you use to calculate the numbers you define as optimal in this oh so optimal dagger club dual wielding master of death?
I don't really get what you're saying. Do you have a better option than a strait 33% increase in dpr?
Here is the explained math:
.65 - assumed hit rate
6.5 damage per attack - 2.5 + 4 dex/str
4 attacks - attack, extra attack, nick, dual wielder
Therefore, the final calculation is .65*4*6.5. Plugging that into a calculator you get 16.9.
And the shield and PaM numbers?
Also how would the numbers for the light dual wielding look if both weapons where say a scimitar? Or a scimitar for nick and one of the numerous other versatile weapons that can be selected due to dual wielding feat enhanced wielding feature?
I see your still working the numbers, and if just changing the daggers for weapons that provide just a single point of pre hit per attack difference when weighed in in calculations results in a clear .65x30[ 7.5 = avg 3.5 + 4dex/str times 4] ~= 19.5 dpr.
Level 5 fighter with dueling and PM: .65(9.5 + 9.5 + 8.5) = 17.875
All i did was go from 1d4 to 1d6 weapons, and the versatile weapon options are not even considered.
But please explain the shield and PaM numbers in detail so the complete analysis of the difference can be fully understood.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
I’m sure anyone can see the dagger club optimization is the absolute best combo for dual wielding weapons especially if your Fifth level fighter is utilizing the fourth level feat of dual wielding and completely ignoring the vast array of tools of the trade that obviously can’t work in any other way as to demonstrate the actual value if discussed proposal.
And exactly what is the complete formula you use to calculate the numbers you define as optimal in this oh so optimal dagger club dual wielding master of death?
I don't really get what you're saying. Do you have a better option than a strait 33% increase in dpr?
Here is the explained math:
.65 - assumed hit rate
6.5 damage per attack - 2.5 + 4 dex/str
4 attacks - attack, extra attack, nick, dual wielder
Therefore, the final calculation is .65*4*6.5. Plugging that into a calculator you get 16.9.
And the shield and PaM numbers?
Also how would the numbers for the light dual wielding look if both weapons where say a scimitar? Or a scimitar for nick and one of the numerous other versatile weapons that can be selected due to dual wielding feat enhanced wielding feature?
I see your still working the numbers, and if just changing the daggers for weapons that provide just a single point of pre hit per attack difference when weighed in in calculations results in a clear .65x30[ 7.5 = avg 3.5 + 4dex/str times 4] ~= 19.5 dpr.
Level 5 fighter with dueling and PM: .65(9.5 + 9.5 + 8.5) = 17.875
All i did was go from 1d4 to 1d6 weapons, and the versatile weapon options are not even considered.
But please explain the shield and PaM numbers in detail so the complete analysis of the difference can be fully understood.
My bad, I forgot about scimitars.
Math for spear:
.65 - hit rate
9.5 - 3.5 + 4 str + 2 from dueling
8.5 - PAM attack does d4 rather than d6
3 attacks - attack, extra attack, PAM attack.
So I guess in the end, dual scimitars does more damage than spear and shield. However, the PAM build does get reactive strike, sap weapon mastery, and two extra AC.
I’m sure anyone can see the dagger club optimization is the absolute best combo for dual wielding weapons especially if your Fifth level fighter is utilizing the fourth level feat of dual wielding and completely ignoring the vast array of tools of the trade that obviously can’t work in any other way as to demonstrate the actual value if discussed proposal.
And exactly what is the complete formula you use to calculate the numbers you define as optimal in this oh so optimal dagger club dual wielding master of death?
I don't really get what you're saying. Do you have a better option than a strait 33% increase in dpr?
Here is the explained math:
.65 - assumed hit rate
6.5 damage per attack - 2.5 + 4 dex/str
4 attacks - attack, extra attack, nick, dual wielder
Therefore, the final calculation is .65*4*6.5. Plugging that into a calculator you get 16.9.
And the shield and PaM numbers?
Also how would the numbers for the light dual wielding look if both weapons where say a scimitar? Or a scimitar for nick and one of the numerous other versatile weapons that can be selected due to dual wielding feat enhanced wielding feature?
I see your still working the numbers, and if just changing the daggers for weapons that provide just a single point of pre hit per attack difference when weighed in in calculations results in a clear .65x30[ 7.5 = avg 3.5 + 4dex/str times 4] ~= 19.5 dpr.
Level 5 fighter with dueling and PM: .65(9.5 + 9.5 + 8.5) = 17.875
All i did was go from 1d4 to 1d6 weapons, and the versatile weapon options are not even considered.
But please explain the shield and PaM numbers in detail so the complete analysis of the difference can be fully understood.
My bad, I forgot about scimitars.
Math for spear:
.65 - hit rate
9.5 - 3.5 + 4 str + 2 from dueling
8.5 - PAM attack does d4 rather than d6
3 attacks - attack, extra attack, PAM attack.
So I guess in the end, dual scimitars does more damage than spear and shield. However, the PAM build does get reactive strike, sap weapon mastery, and two extra AC.
Yea, kinda stings when you really do crunch the numbers and realize you’re just scratching the surface basing the numbers on Dex.
Str for a small drop to AC and the ability to dual wield a light and a versatile weapon( via dual wielding feat) and simply remember the versatile attack when using your extra additional attacks,( the extra attack class feature and the nicked moved attack.) and the other attacks are just the light weapon providing the required prerequisites to grant relevant features.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
Doesn’t Champion explicitly receive a second Fighting Style Feat at level 7 in the 2024 PHB? You could 100% make this if you were a level 7 Champion Fighter (you’d have another ASI to work with, too).
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If by level 5 you’re still using daggers, sure. But as a fighter your weapon selection at level 4 with the taking of the Dual Wielding Feat opens that .375 dpr you say is gained just from the use of dagger’s ( 1d4 vs 1d6 or at 4th and above possibly 1d8) and the math is what exactly compared to just a static +2 and little to no options for tactical offensive engagement?
With dual wielding covering that +2 is far easier than attempting to keep it while juggling to get your next weapon in hand.
Toss in weapon mastery that eases the load on battle maneuvers by granting features that normally require the expenditure of said resources, and what do the numbers say about that now?
And remember your spear and board is just coming online by 4th, while the dual wielding weapon master is going through the options to make the most of their resources and inflict the greatest distress for the least amount of effort.
Numbers start looking favorable to the opponent with the greater number of resources and can utilize them in a far greater and efficient way than just pecking around and hiding in your shell.
And I am fairly curious as to the actual gain between different weapons that qualify for the light weapon dual wielding, vs weapon selection when having the 4th level Dual Wielding Feat both without weapon mastery and with weapon mastery.
Fairly sure the mastery’s add a fair bit more than most realize.
As they say two weapons are better than one.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
The reason I didn't include duel wielder is that the person I quoted said it was unnecessary. Also, you're right weapon mastery would affect the damage, but that would be very annoying to calculate. With duel wielder however, if you aren't switching out weapons, daggers are better for the additional attack. Math:
Level 5 fighter with duel wielder and two weapon fighting: .65(6.5 + 6.5 + 6.5 + 6.5) = 16.9
Level 5 fighter with dueling and PM: .65(9.5 + 9.5 + 8.5) = 17.875
It seems pretty clear that the spear build is better.
Light weapons include more than just daggers when the entire weapon pallet is available. And you forgot that by 5th level extra attack adds two attacks when surging and the bonus action is best taken last.( surge doesn’t reset BA like it first did, still upset that single fighter only feature of Action Surge was taken out because it pushed taking a single level and multiclassing till level 2.[ how many times you’ve played a game to a full 20 level character? If you barely reach it, no harm in improving the little you might get to maximize the chances you make it further.])
Curious as to how you calculated the 65% hit ratio, just a +2 proficiency vs shield or was level proficiency vs shield considered given a relative standard +3 weapon ability score modifier?( STR? or DEX?)
[ Dual wielding feat adds one to relative weapon ability score, and potentially increases it to a level where the average rounds up to +3.]
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
As I said, daggers, or clubs, are the best light weapon in an optimized build, as nick allows you to make an additional attack when combined with duel wielder.
I did not take into account action surge. (which would actually be better with the spear build)
65% is the most commonly assumed hit rate, and I believe it was in the 2014 dmg. It doesn't really matter in this case anyways, as we are comparing attacks with the same hit rate.
I’m sure anyone can see the dagger club optimization is the absolute best combo for dual wielding weapons especially if your Fifth level fighter is utilizing the fourth level feat of dual wielding and completely ignoring the vast array of tools of the trade that obviously can’t work in any other way as to demonstrate the actual value if discussed proposal.
And exactly what is the complete formula you use to calculate the numbers you define as optimal in this oh so optimal dagger club dual wielding master of death?
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
I don't really get what you're saying. Do you have a better option than a strait 33% increase in dpr?
Here is the explained math:
.65 - assumed hit rate
6.5 damage per attack - 2.5 + 4 dex/str
4 attacks - attack, extra attack, nick, dual wielder
Therefore, the final calculation is .65*4*6.5. Plugging that into a calculator you get 16.9.
And the shield and PaM numbers?
Also how would the numbers for the light dual wielding look if both weapons where say a scimitar?
Or a scimitar for nick and one of the numerous other versatile weapons that can be selected due to dual wielding feat enhanced wielding feature?
I see your still working the numbers, and if just changing the daggers for weapons that provide just a single point of pre hit per attack difference when weighed in in calculations results in a clear .65x30[ 7.5 = avg 3.5 + 4dex/str times 4] ~= 19.5 dpr.
Level 5 fighter with dueling and PM: .65(9.5 + 9.5 + 8.5) = 17.875
All i did was go from 1d4 to 1d6 weapons, and the versatile weapon options are not even considered.
But please explain the shield and PaM numbers in detail so the complete analysis of the difference can be fully understood.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
My bad, I forgot about scimitars.
Math for spear:
.65 - hit rate
9.5 - 3.5 + 4 str + 2 from dueling
8.5 - PAM attack does d4 rather than d6
3 attacks - attack, extra attack, PAM attack.
So I guess in the end, dual scimitars does more damage than spear and shield. However, the PAM build does get reactive strike, sap weapon mastery, and two extra AC.
Yea, kinda stings when you really do crunch the numbers and realize you’re just scratching the surface basing the numbers on Dex.
Str for a small drop to AC and the ability to dual wield a light and a versatile weapon( via dual wielding feat) and simply remember the versatile attack when using your extra additional attacks,( the extra attack class feature and the nicked moved attack.) and the other attacks are just the light weapon providing the required prerequisites to grant relevant features.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
Doesn’t Champion explicitly receive a second Fighting Style Feat at level 7 in the 2024 PHB? You could 100% make this if you were a level 7 Champion Fighter (you’d have another ASI to work with, too).