Great visual guide! Did you do a play test with it yet? What limit did you run into regarding mobility? How often did you get an opportunity attack? Did you ever find yourself needing more bonus actions?
Playtested the PAM build with a buddy of mine playing a sentinel build.
Holy shit.
The ratio of opportunity attacks of PAM v sentinel was ridiculous- something like 10:1. Most monsters aren’t smart and will rush into melee- which is exactly where the PAM wants her enemies to be, so she can get her OA in when the enemy enters her range. The build is extremely effective in dungeon settings with pinch points and bottle necks- less geography means the echo can control more of the field. The 10’ range attacks are *killer*.
Some other notes:
Because you can either use your bonus action to summon & move the E or use your bonus to teleport and switch places with it, barring specific role play circumstances, it’s in the knight’s interest to *always* have the echo deployed. If you’re exploring somewhere potentially dangerous, you’ve either got your echo 30’ doing the scouting or 30’ back to give you somewhere safe to teleport to;
If you can help it, save your HP and stay off the front lines. Save your HP as your party’s contingency plan if the front lines break;
There’s a *crazy* good formation (if you’ll forgive the notation): KE-M, where the Knight stands 5’ behind the echo with the monster, ideally, 10’ away. You’ve got reach, you’ve got an attacking echo shield, you’ve got a potential choice of two different flavours of OA’s available. Sick.
There’s another formation- equip a longbow, grab some cover, send your echo up 30’ and take shots with it. Takes care of cover and will (hopefully) attract ranged attacks that would otherwise be aimed at you.
Bottom line, from testing side by side, in large, wide battlefield scenarios, the differences even out, but in a closed dungeon environment, good lord. Fun build.
Oh, and yes, I wish I had more bonus actions if only so I could move the echo and teleport at the same time- but it’d almost certainly overpower the subclass. Didn’t miss the extra 1d4+ on the PAM bonus attack.
One bonus action per turn (sadly). The EK has two class-related bonus actions it can take on any given round: it can either summon &/or move the echo or, using 15' of movement AND the bonus action, you can teleport and change positions with the echo. I'd give my eye teeth to be able to move the echo AND teleport in the same turn. Hyper mobile.
Looking ahead from level 4, I see a level 6 ASI going to increase my STR from 17-18 and CON from 15-16- more damage and more HP/1 extra unleash incarnation. As awesome it would be to add sentinel immediately, I think the stat boost is better. Figure out what to add at 8, based on playtesting, later.
That's part of the reason my planned Echo Knight is an air genasi. Throw levitation into the mix for more movement shenanigans.
You know, it just occurred to me that you can position an Echo directly above your enemy if you wanted. Since Echos can effectively fly/hover, I wonder what advantages there might be from attacking from above?
Perhaps if it is crowded. Or if you don’t want your echo to get hit while they attack with a reach weapon. Or what if you (as the Knight) swapped places with the Echo while it was above a target?
If you showed up above, I imagine if you fell on your enemy hard enough to cause damage- but also take damage. But again, for the PAM build, I want my EK to avoid the front lines as much as possible.
But while we're speaking of "from above", if an echo isn't the best possible Net Delivery System possible, I don't know what is. 😈
So I'm now on my third session playing the build and I'm finding it very, very effective. At level five and the damn thing keeps working, irrespective of rolls.
What's it like... It's like having a blocker on the field that's constantly - everywhere. Avoiding obstacles by way of teleport. Maneuvering the echo so it ties down intelligent creatures reluctant to incur an OA. And man, its AC isn't great at 16, but it's enough to waste ~2-3 enemy attacks per round- and every attack directed at the echo is an attack not directed at anyone else. I've pinned multiple monsters by putting my knight 11' out and the echo adjacent to an enemy and telling it to go **** itself- either it takes an opportunity attack when it moves (either from the echo at 5' or the PAM EK at 10') or it wastes an attack (or more) getting rid of it. I find myself constantly keeping my second wind in reserve because effective use of the echo means I'm being attacked way less and I'm just keeping my HP.
It's a crazy mobile, flexible build. No matter if you take PAM- just keep bouncing around the battlefield until your enemies are all tied up and don't know where to swing...!
Apologies for droning on about this but it’s on my mind.
Someone in my group last night asked me why I liked or found PAM more useful than sentinel and why wouldn’t I take it, given that it stops enemies cold on the field with an opportunity attack? After a bit of back and forth, I think I explained why I found it so useful and how, IMO, sentinel is a sub-optimal feat for the EK compared to PAM and the GWM.
To me, the EK is all about turn maximization. A turn that you don’t use your action, bonus action, movement, AND reaction is a turn poorly spent. Sentinel works incredibly well to trap a single enemy. Put the knight behind cover, manifest the echo next to a baddie, and they either waste their turn attacking the echo or moving and risking losing all movement for the turn. Awesome- unless there’s more than one enemy. Awesome- unless the stopped creature has missile weapons or spells and can attack anyways. But the real issue I have is that sentinel doesn’t add anything to the action economy- you’re still waiting on an enemy to leave your range to get your OA in.
The major advantage PAM has is that it provides the knight with another reaction option- an “approach” reaction as well as a “depart” reaction. Both the echo and the knight can react when a creature leaves their reach- but now the knight can intercept when the enemy enters range, increasing the number of conditions that will trigger an opportunity attack from one to two. The control you can exert on the board by tying up enemies with the echo by placing it within 5’ of multiple baddies while at the same time daring enemies to approach the knight and incur the OA is crazy.
Looking ahead, level 6 A.S.I. will go to STR (17-18)and CON (15-16), level 8 A.S.I. to GWM, and then a possible 2 level dip into barb for rage and reckless attack. Good build, if I do say so myself.
Looking ahead, level 6 A.S.I. will go to STR (17-18)and CON (15-16), level 8 A.S.I. to GWM, and then a possible 2 level dip into barb for rage and reckless attack. Good build, if I do say so myself.
First, thanks so much for sharing your experience and build. I found it insightful, and Sentinel vs PAM makes for a good debate. I'd have to question my own build. What race did you go with? And do you think being able to take a feat at first level would help bring the build online sooner?
Also, I know it is an extra level in Barbarian, but have you considered going to 3rd for Path of the Ancestral Guardian? With Path of the Ancestral Guardian, when you hit an enemy, you can force disadvantage when they attack anyone but you. But since your Echo allows you to make melee attacks from a distance, this makes it quite hard for the enemy to even get to you to attack without disadvantage. And it also forced disadvantage against your Echo I believe. Quite a potent combo.
Edit: If you go Path of the Ancestral Guardian, it also might be interesting to reflavor your Echo as a ghost of one of your ancestors.
I should say I didn’t bring Arrgh the Wanderer up from 1st, but started at 4th so I can’t speak from experience- but ffs. You only get your fighter subclass at 3 and the A.S.I. at 4 is where the fest can be taken.
I went with half-orc, not variant human, and I would’ve done it with this build in any event, even starting from 1. To me, the fun stuff you get as a half-orc (dark vision, savage attack (more dice!), relentless endurance, and most importantly, 3 stat bumps) are of greater utility than a feat at first.
Re: Ancestral, I guess I’ll have to play the build up to decide about whether or not a third level is warranted- but I suspect not. At 18 EK you get the Legion of One ability and the thought of having two echoes is gonzo. Don’t want to miss that. Also, having a tanky character sort of misses the point of the build. I don’t want to put my knight in harm’s way- quite the opposite on this build. Everything else being equal, I want my echo on the front lines, reserving my knight as a defender if the lines get broken through. And if I’m using the echo as a remote sword/shield/target/pincushion, there’s less, if any, need for the knight to be tanky. Only two levels of barb are needed to make the echo a better striker, by way of rage and reckless attack.
That's part of the reason my planned Echo Knight is an air genasi. Throw levitation into the mix for more movement shenanigans.
You know, it just occurred to me that you can position an Echo directly above your enemy if you wanted. Since Echos can effectively fly/hover, I wonder what advantages there might be from attacking from above?
Perhaps if it is crowded. Or if you don’t want your echo to get hit while they attack with a reach weapon. Or what if you (as the Knight) swapped places with the Echo while it was above a target?
drop a net from 10 to 15 feet (need sharpshooter to not have disadvantage) then ranged attack with advantage if the net attack attacks lands
Man I was always really on the fence about what I wanted my first fighter subclass to be(was always torn between battlemaster or eldritch knight/hexblade). You all have thoroughly convinced me that Echo Knight may just be one of the most fun playstyles around.
Currently, my EK is a level 7 half-orc; took PAM at level 4 and at level 6 I increased STR to 18 and CON to 16. My goal with the build is to make additions that primarily makes the striking E deal more damage while not neglecting the defensive role of the EK.
13’s in DEX and CHA remove artificer, cleric, druid, ranger, wizard from the multiclass mix, and I want to (at least in theory) keep level 18 in fighter available in case I progress far enough to get Legion of One. So, which of barbarian, bard, rogue, paladin, sorcerer, or warlock get the nods?
None of the spellcasting classes make that much of an impact in two levels. Low level spells don’t get more potent over two levels and while there are some interesting side benefits to be found (hexblade, divine soul), nothing’s so good that it’s worth devoting two levels to- no to bard, sorcerer, warlock. Two levels of rogue are underwhelming. Expertise is nice but not essential, an extra 1d6 sneak is good but not good enough on its own, and cunning action eats in to bonus actions, otherwise reserved for the Echo. Meh.
Two levels of Paladin or Barb, I think, are the way to go. A barbarian’s rage increases both damage for the E and resistances for the EK, and reckless attacks are made that much more deadly when you consider it’s you who gets the advantage on attacks but the subsequent advantage attack on you doesn’t matter if you’re standing 30’ away. The Paladin’s first level divine sense and lay on hands adds some versatility but the second level fighting style, spells, and smites are *excellent*. Defense is a great fighting style for a two-handed build, as is potentially blindsight (not only 60’ halforc darkvision but 10’ blindsight through magical darkness is a major buff for combat- and especially Echo Avatar), or interception. With the EK safely behind the lines, there’s less issue keeping concentration going for the full minute you get from casting wrathful or thunderous smite.
Level 9 fighter’s only benefit is indomitable which is fine, but meh, so I’ll multiclass the two levels in one of Barb or Pally then.
Any thoughts on which of Pal or Barb is preferable?
Rage and reckless attacks synergize really, really well with an echo and the GWM -5/+10. Take a minus one or three to beat the hell out of something? Tempting. Shame the crit/zero HP part of GWM gives the extra attack as a bonus action- but the -5/+10 is just, I think, that good.
Doesn’t sync as well with Paladin, since the smites are extra damage and not extra to-hit, though man, a GWM hit combined with a smite? Holy crap- pun intended. Still, being able to have two battles a day subject to rage bonuses and full use of reckless attack ALL DAY (1x per turn) I think gives the barb the nod over pally.
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Shit. Sitting too close to the proverbial pen and missing the forest for the trees.
Teleportation is a bonus action + 15’, not just 15’. Can either teleport or move the echo but not both.
Still works, just not as well. I’ll have to ponder.
Pondered.
PAM works extremely well to command a battlefield in the way intended, though mobility is obviously not as good as I first thought.
Visual Combat Tactics: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bQXhXM255L4Y3ywDUPrCaXC_VLA50poh2lOlfZWUYeU/edit?usp=sharing
Great visual guide! Did you do a play test with it yet? What limit did you run into regarding mobility? How often did you get an opportunity attack? Did you ever find yourself needing more bonus actions?
Playtested the PAM build with a buddy of mine playing a sentinel build.
Holy shit.
The ratio of opportunity attacks of PAM v sentinel was ridiculous- something like 10:1. Most monsters aren’t smart and will rush into melee- which is exactly where the PAM wants her enemies to be, so she can get her OA in when the enemy enters her range. The build is extremely effective in dungeon settings with pinch points and bottle necks- less geography means the echo can control more of the field. The 10’ range attacks are *killer*.
Some other notes:
Bottom line, from testing side by side, in large, wide battlefield scenarios, the differences even out, but in a closed dungeon environment, good lord. Fun build.
Oh, and yes, I wish I had more bonus actions if only so I could move the echo and teleport at the same time- but it’d almost certainly overpower the subclass. Didn’t miss the extra 1d4+ on the PAM bonus attack.
Can you clarify what you mean by "move the echo and teleport at the same time?"
On your turn, you can mentally command the echo to move up to 30 feet in any direction (no action required).
Sure.
One bonus action per turn (sadly). The EK has two class-related bonus actions it can take on any given round: it can either summon &/or move the echo or, using 15' of movement AND the bonus action, you can teleport and change positions with the echo. I'd give my eye teeth to be able to move the echo AND teleport in the same turn. Hyper mobile.
Looking ahead from level 4, I see a level 6 ASI going to increase my STR from 17-18 and CON from 15-16- more damage and more HP/1 extra unleash incarnation. As awesome it would be to add sentinel immediately, I think the stat boost is better. Figure out what to add at 8, based on playtesting, later.
It only takes a bonus action to summon the echo. Moving the echo costs nothing.
Oh my good gravy you’re absolutely right.
Bonus action to summon, bonus + 15’ to teleport and movement is free.
Hypermobility unlocked.
That's part of the reason my planned Echo Knight is an air genasi. Throw levitation into the mix for more movement shenanigans.
You know, it just occurred to me that you can position an Echo directly above your enemy if you wanted. Since Echos can effectively fly/hover, I wonder what advantages there might be from attacking from above?
Perhaps if it is crowded. Or if you don’t want your echo to get hit while they attack with a reach weapon. Or what if you (as the Knight) swapped places with the Echo while it was above a target?
If you showed up above, I imagine if you fell on your enemy hard enough to cause damage- but also take damage. But again, for the PAM build, I want my EK to avoid the front lines as much as possible.
But while we're speaking of "from above", if an echo isn't the best possible Net Delivery System possible, I don't know what is. 😈
So I'm now on my third session playing the build and I'm finding it very, very effective. At level five and the damn thing keeps working, irrespective of rolls.
What's it like... It's like having a blocker on the field that's constantly - everywhere. Avoiding obstacles by way of teleport. Maneuvering the echo so it ties down intelligent creatures reluctant to incur an OA. And man, its AC isn't great at 16, but it's enough to waste ~2-3 enemy attacks per round- and every attack directed at the echo is an attack not directed at anyone else. I've pinned multiple monsters by putting my knight 11' out and the echo adjacent to an enemy and telling it to go **** itself- either it takes an opportunity attack when it moves (either from the echo at 5' or the PAM EK at 10') or it wastes an attack (or more) getting rid of it. I find myself constantly keeping my second wind in reserve because effective use of the echo means I'm being attacked way less and I'm just keeping my HP.
It's a crazy mobile, flexible build. No matter if you take PAM- just keep bouncing around the battlefield until your enemies are all tied up and don't know where to swing...!
Apologies for droning on about this but it’s on my mind.
Someone in my group last night asked me why I liked or found PAM more useful than sentinel and why wouldn’t I take it, given that it stops enemies cold on the field with an opportunity attack? After a bit of back and forth, I think I explained why I found it so useful and how, IMO, sentinel is a sub-optimal feat for the EK compared to PAM and the GWM.
To me, the EK is all about turn maximization. A turn that you don’t use your action, bonus action, movement, AND reaction is a turn poorly spent. Sentinel works incredibly well to trap a single enemy. Put the knight behind cover, manifest the echo next to a baddie, and they either waste their turn attacking the echo or moving and risking losing all movement for the turn. Awesome- unless there’s more than one enemy. Awesome- unless the stopped creature has missile weapons or spells and can attack anyways. But the real issue I have is that sentinel doesn’t add anything to the action economy- you’re still waiting on an enemy to leave your range to get your OA in.
The major advantage PAM has is that it provides the knight with another reaction option- an “approach” reaction as well as a “depart” reaction. Both the echo and the knight can react when a creature leaves their reach- but now the knight can intercept when the enemy enters range, increasing the number of conditions that will trigger an opportunity attack from one to two. The control you can exert on the board by tying up enemies with the echo by placing it within 5’ of multiple baddies while at the same time daring enemies to approach the knight and incur the OA is crazy.
Looking ahead, level 6 A.S.I. will go to STR (17-18)and CON (15-16), level 8 A.S.I. to GWM, and then a possible 2 level dip into barb for rage and reckless attack. Good build, if I do say so myself.
First, thanks so much for sharing your experience and build. I found it insightful, and Sentinel vs PAM makes for a good debate. I'd have to question my own build. What race did you go with? And do you think being able to take a feat at first level would help bring the build online sooner?
Also, I know it is an extra level in Barbarian, but have you considered going to 3rd for Path of the Ancestral Guardian? With Path of the Ancestral Guardian, when you hit an enemy, you can force disadvantage when they attack anyone but you. But since your Echo allows you to make melee attacks from a distance, this makes it quite hard for the enemy to even get to you to attack without disadvantage. And it also forced disadvantage against your Echo I believe. Quite a potent combo.
Edit: If you go Path of the Ancestral Guardian, it also might be interesting to reflavor your Echo as a ghost of one of your ancestors.
Thanks for the kind feedback.
I should say I didn’t bring Arrgh the Wanderer up from 1st, but started at 4th so I can’t speak from experience- but ffs. You only get your fighter subclass at 3 and the A.S.I. at 4 is where the fest can be taken.
I went with half-orc, not variant human, and I would’ve done it with this build in any event, even starting from 1. To me, the fun stuff you get as a half-orc (dark vision, savage attack (more dice!), relentless endurance, and most importantly, 3 stat bumps) are of greater utility than a feat at first.
Re: Ancestral, I guess I’ll have to play the build up to decide about whether or not a third level is warranted- but I suspect not. At 18 EK you get the Legion of One ability and the thought of having two echoes is gonzo. Don’t want to miss that. Also, having a tanky character sort of misses the point of the build. I don’t want to put my knight in harm’s way- quite the opposite on this build. Everything else being equal, I want my echo on the front lines, reserving my knight as a defender if the lines get broken through. And if I’m using the echo as a remote sword/shield/target/pincushion, there’s less, if any, need for the knight to be tanky. Only two levels of barb are needed to make the echo a better striker, by way of rage and reckless attack.
My $0.02.
drop a net from 10 to 15 feet (need sharpshooter to not have disadvantage) then ranged attack with advantage if the net attack attacks lands
Man I was always really on the fence about what I wanted my first fighter subclass to be(was always torn between battlemaster or eldritch knight/hexblade). You all have thoroughly convinced me that Echo Knight may just be one of the most fun playstyles around.
Let’s go back to the multiclass topic.
Currently, my EK is a level 7 half-orc; took PAM at level 4 and at level 6 I increased STR to 18 and CON to 16. My goal with the build is to make additions that primarily makes the striking E deal more damage while not neglecting the defensive role of the EK.
13’s in DEX and CHA remove artificer, cleric, druid, ranger, wizard from the multiclass mix, and I want to (at least in theory) keep level 18 in fighter available in case I progress far enough to get Legion of One. So, which of barbarian, bard, rogue, paladin, sorcerer, or warlock get the nods?
None of the spellcasting classes make that much of an impact in two levels. Low level spells don’t get more potent over two levels and while there are some interesting side benefits to be found (hexblade, divine soul), nothing’s so good that it’s worth devoting two levels to- no to bard, sorcerer, warlock. Two levels of rogue are underwhelming. Expertise is nice but not essential, an extra 1d6 sneak is good but not good enough on its own, and cunning action eats in to bonus actions, otherwise reserved for the Echo. Meh.
Two levels of Paladin or Barb, I think, are the way to go. A barbarian’s rage increases both damage for the E and resistances for the EK, and reckless attacks are made that much more deadly when you consider it’s you who gets the advantage on attacks but the subsequent advantage attack on you doesn’t matter if you’re standing 30’ away. The Paladin’s first level divine sense and lay on hands adds some versatility but the second level fighting style, spells, and smites are *excellent*. Defense is a great fighting style for a two-handed build, as is potentially blindsight (not only 60’ halforc darkvision but 10’ blindsight through magical darkness is a major buff for combat- and especially Echo Avatar), or interception. With the EK safely behind the lines, there’s less issue keeping concentration going for the full minute you get from casting wrathful or thunderous smite.
Level 9 fighter’s only benefit is indomitable which is fine, but meh, so I’ll multiclass the two levels in one of Barb or Pally then.
Any thoughts on which of Pal or Barb is preferable?
Musing on things.
Rage and reckless attacks synergize really, really well with an echo and the GWM -5/+10. Take a minus one or three to beat the hell out of something? Tempting. Shame the crit/zero HP part of GWM gives the extra attack as a bonus action- but the -5/+10 is just, I think, that good.
Doesn’t sync as well with Paladin, since the smites are extra damage and not extra to-hit, though man, a GWM hit combined with a smite? Holy crap- pun intended. Still, being able to have two battles a day subject to rage bonuses and full use of reckless attack ALL DAY (1x per turn) I think gives the barb the nod over pally.