Is this guy seriously saying that his ruling is more official than Jeremy Crawford's? Cause I don't know how much clearer it can be when the guy who handles the rules says it is treated as an object, NOT a creature. Like, that's it. You don't pass Go. You don't collect two hundred dollars. You lose. Good day.
My only gripe with the Echo Knight is I wish Unleash Incarnation allowed me to make ranged attacks. My archer doesn't get to make Attacks of Opportunity ever so her reaction action is often unused. I wish I could make a ranged AoO, even if it's still provoked by someone entering and leaving my archer's melee radius.
If the Echo could be used to make ranged attacks, that would truly make the Beast Master Ranger's beast companion redundant. As it is, the Echo is better than most beast companion choices because it is an object and not a creature, can be re-summoned as a bonus action rather than as a ritual, is not subject to opportunity attacks, and when using the Echo to attack, the Echo Knight gets to use all of its proficiency bonus and STR or DEX bonus. All of this on top of the better ASI progression that the Fighter base class receives + Second Wind. It makes no sense to me that people are complaining about the Echo Knight being weak when it largely outstrips the Beast Master Ranger by a significant degree.
Is this guy seriously saying that his ruling is more official than Jeremy Crawford's? Cause I don't know how much clearer it can be when the guy who handles the rules says it is treated as an object, NOT a creature. Like, that's it. You don't pass Go. You don't collect two hundred dollars. You lose. Good day.
My only gripe with the Echo Knight is I wish Unleash Incarnation allowed me to make ranged attacks. My archer doesn't get to make Attacks of Opportunity ever so her reaction action is often unused. I wish I could make a ranged AoO, even if it's still provoked by someone entering and leaving my archer's melee radius.
If the Echo could be used to make ranged attacks, that would truly make the Beast Master Ranger's beast companion redundant. As it is, the Echo is better than most beast companion choices because it is an object and not a creature, can be re-summoned as a bonus action rather than as a ritual, is not subject to opportunity attacks, and when using the Echo to attack, the Echo Knight gets to use all of its proficiency bonus and STR or DEX bonus. All of this on top of the better ASI progression that the Fighter base class receives + Second Wind. It makes no sense to me that people are complaining about the Echo Knight being weak when it largely outstrips the Beast Master Ranger by a significant degree.
I"m still not convinced that it's not OP. Melee ability with little risk to the fighter...ability to OA if it's ignored and enemy tries to move past....extra attack...
Some uses for echoes: blocking corridors. In a 10 feet wide corridor, you can block it entirely with yourself and your echo to keep the back lines safe. If an attacker wants to get past you, it is going to need to both waste an attack on you and eat an attack of opportunity from you. In a 5 feet corridor, you can attack through your echo, and if your opponent wants to come get to you, it is going to have to waste an attack. And since you get this at level 3, it might be its only attack for that turn.
Echoes pair well with sentinel, but also with mage slayer. For the low price of a bonus action, you significantly lower the chance that the enemy caster is going to do anything useful for a turn. If it disengages or attacks the echo, it is not casting. If it casts, it gets smacked and might lose concentration on something nasty.
Some uses for echoes: blocking corridors. In a 10 feet wide corridor, you can block it entirely with yourself and your echo to keep the back lines safe. If an attacker wants to get past you, it is going to need to both waste an attack on you and eat an attack of opportunity from you. In a 5 feet corridor, you can attack through your echo, and if your opponent wants to come get to you, it is going to have to waste an attack. And since you get this at level 3, it might be its only attack for that turn.
Echoes pair well with sentinel, but also with mage slayer. For the low price of a bonus action, you significantly lower the chance that the enemy caster is going to do anything useful for a turn. If it disengages or attacks the echo, it is not casting. If it casts, it gets smacked and might lose concentration on something nasty.
An echo cannot use the mage slayers reaction attack. It requires the caster to be within 5ft of you. Since you aren’t your echo, it would not work.
The Echo Knight using crossbows or a sword can make 10 attacks in a single turn. A halfling using Lucky can pretty much make 8 of the 10 (2 are Echo's) automatically hit. That is strong af.
The Echo Knight using crossbows or a sword can make 10 attacks in a single turn. A halfling using Lucky can pretty much make 8 of the 10 (2 are Echo's) automatically hit. That is strong af.
The echoes extra attack must be melee, so crossbows not so much. Don’t forget the loading feature of the crossbow, so I’m going to assume the Knight you’re envisioning took a crossbow master feat.
I was recently thinking of another way to 'skin' an Echo. What if, instead of an translucent image of the Knight, the Echo appears simply as a 'floating weapon' (translucent or not). So you don't really see the Echo as a person, just the Echo's (Knight's) weapon?
In my mind, this in some ways makes more sense than an echo being presented as a person. Particularly because an Echo is an object and can technically do very little. By the rules it can't even open doors or pick up objects. But what it can do is attack. So imagine if the Echo was represented by a floating, 'dancing sword' for example. It can strike, it controls as space because it is moving around and is threatening, it can fly/float in any direction, and it disappears if struck.
The act of summoning the Echo could even appear like the Knight drawing one of his own blades.
I think that is not a bad way to think about the combat features of an Echo. On the other hand, it is supposed to be useful as a exploration & info gathering tool as well, similar to a familiar.
I think that is not a bad way to think about the combat features of an Echo. On the other hand, it is supposed to be useful as a exploration & info gathering tool as well, similar to a familiar.
Yes, I imagine the Echo Avatar could be described differently, especially given that weapons don’t normally have eyes or ears. But as far as the game rules on concerned, an Echo Avatar could be described as anything, from a floating eye to a ghostly spirit. I guess it all depends on the flavor and style the player is shooting for, or that the DM would allow. I guess re-flavoring things is very DM dependent.
I think that is not a bad way to think about the combat features of an Echo. On the other hand, it is supposed to be useful as a exploration & info gathering tool as well, similar to a familiar.
Yes, I imagine the Echo Avatar could be described differently, especially given that weapons don’t normally have eyes or ears. But as far as the game rules on concerned, an Echo Avatar could be described as anything, from a floating eye to a ghostly spirit. I guess it all depends on the flavor and style the player is shooting for, or that the DM would allow. I guess re-flavoring things is very DM dependent.
I think it's fine to re-flavor parts of it, but the description is very clear in the book and makes the most sense to me as well for all the features:
This echo is a magical, translucent, gray image of you that lasts until it is destroyed.
Okay true. But 10 attacks with the right melee weapon will be devastating to enemies.
10 attacks is okay, but have you ever tried played a Half-Elven Sorlock Samurai? 3 times a day you can opening round, 4 attacks at advantage rolling 3 d20s instead of 2, dealing an extra 7d8 additional damage using booming blade to your Weapon+Cha+Char base because hexlade+life drinker? Sure 10 attacks is a lot, but if you're fighting 10 enemies, a sorlock cone of cold that they get 3 of every short rest would wipe the floor with that many enemies that close together.
An echo fighter might be devastating with an artifact weapon, but just giving up on the ability to have advantage on all attacks to and going 20 levels of fighter isn't that amazing for 1 round of ten attacks. The only time you would benefit is if the character has some overpowered homebrew weapon like you would expect to see season 1 of Critical Role. Because you essentially only gain Con number of rounds with haste a day, but without the speed boost and without the flexibility of being Vaxildan while hasted.
So, I see a lot of people saying that the Echo is paper thin. Um...it's not. The 1 hp is what is fooling people. Remember, this isn't a creature. That means spells like Fireball, Magic Missile, and even Hold Monster are useless. Opportunity attacks won't work either, because they only target creatures. In fact, even regular attacks can't hit it. The target of an attack can be a creature, location, or object. The Echo is none of the above. Functionally, despite having 1 hp, it is basically invincible.
So, I see a lot of people saying that the Echo is paper thin. Um...it's not. The 1 hp is what is fooling people. Remember, this isn't a creature. That means spells like Fireball, Magic Missile, and even Hold Monster are useless. Opportunity attacks won't work either, because they only target creatures. In fact, even regular attacks can't hit it. The target of an attack can be a creature, location, or object. The Echo is none of the above. Functionally, despite having 1 hp, it is basically invincible.
Okay, everything else in your post is correct, but this is wrong. They are objects, and so they can be targeted by normal attacks.
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If the Echo could be used to make ranged attacks, that would truly make the Beast Master Ranger's beast companion redundant. As it is, the Echo is better than most beast companion choices because it is an object and not a creature, can be re-summoned as a bonus action rather than as a ritual, is not subject to opportunity attacks, and when using the Echo to attack, the Echo Knight gets to use all of its proficiency bonus and STR or DEX bonus. All of this on top of the better ASI progression that the Fighter base class receives + Second Wind. It makes no sense to me that people are complaining about the Echo Knight being weak when it largely outstrips the Beast Master Ranger by a significant degree.
I"m still not convinced that it's not OP. Melee ability with little risk to the fighter...ability to OA if it's ignored and enemy tries to move past....extra attack...
As well poorly written.....
Some uses for echoes: blocking corridors. In a 10 feet wide corridor, you can block it entirely with yourself and your echo to keep the back lines safe. If an attacker wants to get past you, it is going to need to both waste an attack on you and eat an attack of opportunity from you. In a 5 feet corridor, you can attack through your echo, and if your opponent wants to come get to you, it is going to have to waste an attack. And since you get this at level 3, it might be its only attack for that turn.
Echoes pair well with sentinel, but also with mage slayer. For the low price of a bonus action, you significantly lower the chance that the enemy caster is going to do anything useful for a turn. If it disengages or attacks the echo, it is not casting. If it casts, it gets smacked and might lose concentration on something nasty.
An echo cannot use the mage slayers reaction attack. It requires the caster to be within 5ft of you. Since you aren’t your echo, it would not work.
Yes the Echo's reaction only applies if the enemy moves. It still makes it a great blocker while the fighter sits back from the fight...
The Echo Knight using crossbows or a sword can make 10 attacks in a single turn. A halfling using Lucky can pretty much make 8 of the 10 (2 are Echo's) automatically hit. That is strong af.
Using Action Surge
The echoes extra attack must be melee, so crossbows not so much. Don’t forget the loading feature of the crossbow, so I’m going to assume the Knight you’re envisioning took a crossbow master feat.
Okay true. But 10 attacks with the right melee weapon will be devastating to enemies.
Help me with the math? Are you assuming a level 20 fighter, action surge, and Unleash Incarnation? Yah, level 20 fighters are scary.
Yep. A flametongue greatsword wielding half-orc with savage attacks, and orcish fury critting with his echo is so scary
I was recently thinking of another way to 'skin' an Echo. What if, instead of an translucent image of the Knight, the Echo appears simply as a 'floating weapon' (translucent or not). So you don't really see the Echo as a person, just the Echo's (Knight's) weapon?
In my mind, this in some ways makes more sense than an echo being presented as a person. Particularly because an Echo is an object and can technically do very little. By the rules it can't even open doors or pick up objects. But what it can do is attack. So imagine if the Echo was represented by a floating, 'dancing sword' for example. It can strike, it controls as space because it is moving around and is threatening, it can fly/float in any direction, and it disappears if struck.
The act of summoning the Echo could even appear like the Knight drawing one of his own blades.
Anyway, just an idea. What do you all think?
You certainly can reflavor it as this, but then I don't really see any reason to call it an "echo".
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True enough. Alas, it sometimes feels like the description of an echo doesn't align so well with the rules for one either.
I think that is not a bad way to think about the combat features of an Echo. On the other hand, it is supposed to be useful as a exploration & info gathering tool as well, similar to a familiar.
Yes, I imagine the Echo Avatar could be described differently, especially given that weapons don’t normally have eyes or ears. But as far as the game rules on concerned, an Echo Avatar could be described as anything, from a floating eye to a ghostly spirit. I guess it all depends on the flavor and style the player is shooting for, or that the DM would allow. I guess re-flavoring things is very DM dependent.
I think it's fine to re-flavor parts of it, but the description is very clear in the book and makes the most sense to me as well for all the features:
This echo is a magical, translucent, gray image of you that lasts until it is destroyed.
10 attacks is okay, but have you ever tried played a Half-Elven Sorlock Samurai? 3 times a day you can opening round, 4 attacks at advantage rolling 3 d20s instead of 2, dealing an extra 7d8 additional damage using booming blade to your Weapon+Cha+Char base because hexlade+life drinker? Sure 10 attacks is a lot, but if you're fighting 10 enemies, a sorlock cone of cold that they get 3 of every short rest would wipe the floor with that many enemies that close together.
An echo fighter might be devastating with an artifact weapon, but just giving up on the ability to have advantage on all attacks to and going 20 levels of fighter isn't that amazing for 1 round of ten attacks. The only time you would benefit is if the character has some overpowered homebrew weapon like you would expect to see season 1 of Critical Role. Because you essentially only gain Con number of rounds with haste a day, but without the speed boost and without the flexibility of being Vaxildan while hasted.
So, I see a lot of people saying that the Echo is paper thin. Um...it's not. The 1 hp is what is fooling people. Remember, this isn't a creature. That means spells like Fireball, Magic Missile, and even Hold Monster are useless. Opportunity attacks won't work either, because they only target creatures. In fact, even regular attacks can't hit it. The target of an attack can be a creature, location, or object. The Echo is none of the above. Functionally, despite having 1 hp, it is basically invincible.
Okay, everything else in your post is correct, but this is wrong. They are objects, and so they can be targeted by normal attacks.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
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