Rage + reckless attack + GWM + action surge + unleash incarnation equals 7 attacks with advantage, doing an extra 12 points of damage on a hit (albeit, -5 to hit)- all in one round, with further rounds still getting the reckless/GWM two plus ten. That’s a shit ton of damage. If they all hit with a 1d10 weapon, you’re looking at 1d10+12, x7, which offers potential damage from 91-154 points of damage- in a single round.
Nothing the Pally has can compare to that at an equivalent level. Barb’s the way to go for this build.
Rage + reckless attack + GWM + action surge + unleash incarnation equals 7 attacks with advantage, doing an extra 12 points of damage on a hit (albeit, -5 to hit)- all in one round, with further rounds still getting the reckless/GWM two plus ten. That’s a shit ton of damage. If they all hit with a 1d10 weapon, you’re looking at 1d10+12, x7, which offers potential damage from 91-154 points of damage- in a single round.
Nothing the Pally has can compare to that at an equivalent level. Barb’s the way to go for this build.
paladins with GWM can very much match that kind of damage. 7d10+84 is not supremely amazing. It's very good.
Paladin (oathbreaker) 8 + hexblade 12 gets you 2d6 (weapon)+ 13 +5d8 +1d6 +10 twice (3 times on a crit or kill) 20d8+8d6+4d6+ 69 (that's one crit) 20d8 is average 100, 8d6 is average 32, 4d6 is average 16, +69 (mods don't double) is like 200 damage average, 301 max on one crit. Even without the crit, you still do over 150 damage easy.
That's all an aside because white room math is fun but useless.
That's part of the reason my planned Echo Knight is an air genasi. Throw levitation into the mix for more movement shenanigans.
You know, it just occurred to me that you can position an Echo directly above your enemy if you wanted. Since Echos can effectively fly/hover, I wonder what advantages there might be from attacking from above?
Perhaps if it is crowded. Or if you don’t want your echo to get hit while they attack with a reach weapon. Or what if you (as the Knight) swapped places with the Echo while it was above a target?
Mechanically none except maybe advantage. ..
If you swap places you fall without levitate, and with levitate you float impotently. Levitate is OK if used aggressively, but defensively it's underwhelming, which is a shame because it seems like it would be amazing
No no. I meant as a multi class for an EK build. And at level 10, ~90-150 points of damage in a single turn is *huge*.
Gwm+ haste can do that easily without crit fishing, 5attacks is 75 damage + weapon rolls without crits. If one or 2 of those crit, it's better but not a lot (dice double but not modifiers). Greatsword is actually much better than greataxe on crits, because 4d6 is better than 2d12, 2 more attacks is better (30 more damage plus weapon rolls)
Our fighter reliably did better than 75 damage per round while hasted at 10, even on only 3 attacks (45+6d6, rerolling 1's and 2's) without even advantage. He's an EK, but he's never used any of his spells except one shield spell once (he has a magic sword but idk if it's +1 or +2
Our battlerager barb in a different game at 10th was doing roughly that damage on only 2 GWM attacks 2d12+20+10 (str)+4(weapon bonus)+6(rage), and a bonus action 1d4 punch for 1d4+5+2+3 (50 damage+2d12 [rerolling 1's and 2's] +1d4), with haste its another 1d12+20 on 4 attacks for a total of 70+3d12 (min 6 max 36)+1d4, for giggles we often also Enlarged him for another 1d4 on each of all attacks. Once he crit on everything but the punch, so instead it was 6d12+4d4+70
In the game with the battlerager, our 10th level gunsmith UA artificer crit for like I think 12d6+5, which is still up there around 60 damage
This is all just my opinion, but I personally think Barbarian is one of the best multiclasses for an Echo Knight for a few reasons.
First, while I think Paladins are good, a two level dip doesn't get you much. Sure you get a bit of utility and smite, but with hardly any spell levels to throw into it. Even if you go more levels, it might be good for burst damage, but that isn't really my thing unless you build around it. Though the extra fighting style does sound tempting.
As already pointed out, reckless attack through an Echo is amazing. Advantage without the disadvantage. Since your Knight is most likely not as close to the enemy as the Echo, granting advantage to enemies is far less of an issue. If anything, goating the enemy to come after you for the advantage just gives the Echo an opportunity attack.
I personally feel that playing an Echo Knight is about much more than doing damage. If you want just high damage, there are better builds out there. Echo Knights seem much more about controlling the battlefield, soaking attacks and maneuverability, all while granting extra opportunity attacks and keeping yourself self. Calculating DPR hardly takes that into consideration.
If you really want to focus on DPR, an extra level into Barbarian for Path of the Zealot will give you a bit more.
But here I believe is the best reason to go Barbarian, and your group will love you for it. Though it costs an extra level as well. Go Path of the Ancestral Guardians. Flavor the ancestral spirits as yet more Echos or copies of yourself if you wish. But it grants you Ancestral Protectors. Ancestral Protectors forces the enemy you hit to have disadvantage to attack anyone but you, and grants your allies resistance as well. In short, it makes you the biggest target on the battlefield. But with an Echo Knight, you can be safely across the battlefield while still pummeling your opponent. And your Echo makes it much hard or more painful for your opponent to get to you. Which is why I think Echo Knight and Ancestral Barbarian synergize so well.
Anyway, just my two cents if you are willing to dip a bit further. Obviously you'd give up Legion of One at 18th level, assuming you play that high.
This is all just my opinion, but I personally think Barbarian is one of the best multiclasses for an Echo Knight for a few reasons.
First, while I think Paladins are good, a two level dip doesn't get you much. Sure you get a bit of utility and smite, but with hardly any spell levels to throw into it. Even if you go more levels, it might be good for burst damage, but that isn't really my thing unless you build around it. Though the extra fighting style does sound tempting.
As already pointed out, reckless attack through an Echo is amazing. Advantage without the disadvantage. Since your Knight is most likely not as close to the enemy as the Echo, granting advantage to enemies is far less of an issue. If anything, goating the enemy to come after you for the advantage just gives the Echo an opportunity attack.
I personally feel that playing an Echo Knight is about much more than doing damage. If you want just high damage, there are better builds out there. Echo Knights seem much more about controlling the battlefield, soaking attacks and maneuverability, all while granting extra opportunity attacks and keeping yourself self. Calculating DPR hardly takes that into consideration.
If you really want to focus on DPR, an extra level into Barbarian for Path of the Zealot will give you a bit more.
But here I believe is the best reason to go Barbarian, and your group will love you for it. Though it costs an extra level as well. Go Path of the Ancestral Guardians. Flavor the ancestral spirits as yet more Echos or copies of yourself if you wish. But it grants you Ancestral Protectors. Ancestral Protectors forces the enemy you hit to have disadvantage to attack anyone but you, and grants your allies resistance as well. In short, it makes you the biggest target on the battlefield. But with an Echo Knight, you can be safely across the battlefield while still pummeling your opponent. And your Echo makes it much hard or more painful for your opponent to get to you. Which is why I think Echo Knight and Ancestral Barbarian synergize so well.
Anyway, just my two cents if you are willing to dip a bit further. Obviously you'd give up Legion of One at 18th level, assuming you play that high.
The only anti-synergy I see with Ancestral Barb and Echo Knight is the competition for reaction. Echo probably has one of the better chances of getting an AoO thanks to its Echo and Ancestral protectors being a reaction as well seems like it might interfere.
However this is a small consideration and overall I think it fits well along with all the other points you made!
Granted, the number of characters you're actually going to take to level 20 is few and far between- but can you imagine the joy of getting to level 20 and getting TWO echoes; or the agony of getting to level 20 and being forever one level away from two echoes??
For myself and myself only, my EK is a character I'd like to take as high as I can. Really like the dude. Can't take away the opportunity to see what happens if and when I get to level 20.
Granted, the number of characters you're actually going to take to level 20 is few and far between- but can you imagine the joy of getting to level 20 and getting TWO echoes; or the agony of getting to level 20 and being forever one level away from two echoes??
For myself and myself only, my EK is a character I'd like to take as high as I can. Really like the dude. Can't take away the opportunity to see what happens if and when I get to level 20.
The only anti-synergy I see with Ancestral Barb and Echo Knight is the competition for reaction. Echo probably has one of the better chances of getting an AoO thanks to its Echo and Ancestral protectors being a reaction as well seems like it might interfere.
However this is a small consideration and overall I think it fits well along with all the other points you made!
@OptimusGrimus Say more? I didn't see anything about a reaction needed Ancestral Protectors. Spirit Shield at 6th however does require a reaction, but I won't multiclass that high personally.
@Conskinopoulos Yah, if you plan to play until 20th, I can see why you'd want to get Legion of One. However Legion of One doesn't actually increase your offense, does it (except of an extra Unleash Incarnation every now and then)? It is more about maneuverability and flexibility, and I would also concede, a really cool looking effect. If you like your character so much, please do feel free to share more about him, I'd love to hear.
The only anti-synergy I see with Ancestral Barb and Echo Knight is the competition for reaction. Echo probably has one of the better chances of getting an AoO thanks to its Echo and Ancestral protectors being a reaction as well seems like it might interfere.
However this is a small consideration and overall I think it fits well along with all the other points you made!
@OptimusGrimus Say more? I didn't see anything about a reaction needed Ancestral Protectors. Spirit Shield at 6th however does require a reaction, but I won't multiclass that high personally.
@Conskinopoulos Yah, if you plan to play until 20th, I can see why you'd want to get Legion of One. However Legion of One doesn't actually increase your offense, does it (except of an extra Unleash Incarnation every now and then)? It is more about maneuverability and flexibility, and I would also concede, a really cool looking effect. If you like your character so much, please do feel free to share more about him, I'd love to hear.
I mixed up the abilities....the reaction to reduce damage mechanic is Spirit Shield you are correct.
It states in the rules you can summon the echo to an unoccupied 5' space anywhere you can see. Another ability states for exchange of 15' of movement you trade places with the echo. So if I can see the top of a tower, I put the echo there, then exchange places with it, and I'm on top of the tower.
It states in the rules you can summon the echo to an unoccupied 5' space anywhere you can see. Another ability states for exchange of 15' of movement you trade places with the echo. So if I can see the top of a tower, I put the echo there, then exchange places with it, and I'm on top of the tower.
Sorry, that's not correct, you can summon it within 15 feet of you.
"You can use a bonus action to magically manifest an echo of yourself in an unoccupied space you can see within 15 feet of you."
I honestly think the Echo Knight is overloaded as hell.
Honestly, on Level 3 alone, this subclass gets more stuff than some classes get in their whole life span...
Lets look at just Level 3 and see everything you get:
- A free, unlimited number of summoned bodies on the field. That alone is already inanely strong and makes every ambush useless unless the DM starts giving enemies the magical sense to see its only an Echo and not a real person with some illusion stuff on it.
- An unlimited amount of bonus action Teleports up to 45 feet (Summon Echo 15 feet away from you, make it move 30 feet, use bonus action to switch), that can bypass any barrier you can look through. This is litrally just an unlimited amount of misty steps in and out of combat. while basically remaining in Melee range for combat, since the Echo can still attack.
- A melee attack range of 30+ feet. Since the echo is only destroyed AT THE END of you turn when its more than 30 feet from you and not whenevr it is, you could, in theory, summon the echo 15 feet away from you, make it walk 30 feet towards the enemy move 30 feet away from the enemy and still attack with your melee attack, no penalty, even though you are now 75 feet away from the enemy... AND THIS WORKS WITH RANGED ATTACKS TOO!
- The Echo can also do an AoO for you, which means for example with Sentinel, you can totaly lock down an melee enemy for the whole fight with no risk to yourself and again, no ressource involved.
And that only the stuff your FIRST ability gives you, none of those has any form of cooldown or limitation...
And then you also get [Con mod] additional attacks per long rest... at least this one has a cooldown...
And thats just level 3...
on level 7 you basically have unlimited disposable fighters who can clear a dungeon for you. Seriously, equip a Longbow, sit your butt in front of a dungeon and you can literally send one echo after another in, chipping away the enemies. You can even barricade the entrance with only a small hole you can look through to send new Echos in... Again, no ressources, no Cooldowns. You can do this all day if you want.
Level 10 and 15 are maybe the only abilities in this kit I would consider balanced...
And then at Level 18, you get 2 Echos, because why not...
This class needs serious changes to not be insanely strong with just 3 levels in fighter and Gamebreaking with 7...
You’re literally correct- the echo avatar can only look and hear and move, but geez, move to the less literal and it’s ridiculous.
Send out your echo on a scouting mission way ahead of the party, able to walk in the air, under water, rough terrain, poison gas, makes no difference. Let’s say your echo meets some monsters and gets murdered. Re-send in the echo to a safe spot between there and where you are, then teleport to exchange places. Have the party join you. Send in the echo or lay an ambush. Forewarned is forearmed.
Bottomless pit? Echo Avatar across and switch places. Bridge out? Same thing. Wall of fire? Echo Avatar over it. Nuisance flying monster? Echo. And yep, so long as there’s a peephole into a solid door, why not send in the echo to keep assaulting the enemy while the party luxuriates behind the door? So long as you manifest the echo a good ways into the room, how would the monsters know where it’s coming from?
Fundamentally, the Echo Knight’s a one-trick pony, but man, that’s one helluva trick on one helluva pony.
You’re literally correct- the echo avatar can only look and hear and move, but geez, move to the less literal and it’s ridiculous.
Send out your echo on a scouting mission way ahead of the party, able to walk in the air, under water, rough terrain, poison gas, makes no difference. Let’s say your echo meets some monsters and gets murdered. Re-send in the echo to a safe spot between there and where you are, then teleport to exchange places. Have the party join you. Send in the echo or lay an ambush. Forewarned is forearmed.
Bottomless pit? Echo Avatar across and switch places. Bridge out? Same thing. Wall of fire? Echo Avatar over it. Nuisance flying monster? Echo. And yep, so long as there’s a peephole into a solid door, why not send in the echo to keep assaulting the enemy while the party luxuriates behind the door? So long as you manifest the echo a good ways into the room, how would the monsters know where it’s coming from?
Fundamentally, the Echo Knight’s a one-trick pony, but man, that’s one helluva trick on one helluva pony.
Its good do not get me wrong...its just not as crazy as you would think.
I think Rune Knight is the most powerful at the moment...at level 7 you can force DIS on a spell check 10 times per short rest....a sorcerer would have to spend 3 SP to do it once.
I've been playing a pirate half-elf that is multiclassed into Bladesinger Wizard/Echo Knight. It's insane how mobile he is and the amount of burst damage he can do by bamfing around strategically.
I think you are overestimating the level 7 feature a lot...its just for scouting and cannot take any actions while doing so.
Where does it say that?
The ability only adds stuff the the Echo, it doesnt take anything from it. Its still your Echo that has all the abilities from Level 3, including the one where you can take the attack action and have it originate from the Echos position, which has no range limit. Which means as long as the Echo is within 1000 feet of you with the level 7 ability, you can attack through it.
Barbarian’s the way to go. Two levels only.
Rage + reckless attack + GWM + action surge + unleash incarnation equals 7 attacks with advantage, doing an extra 12 points of damage on a hit (albeit, -5 to hit)- all in one round, with further rounds still getting the reckless/GWM two plus ten. That’s a shit ton of damage. If they all hit with a 1d10 weapon, you’re looking at 1d10+12, x7, which offers potential damage from 91-154 points of damage- in a single round.
Nothing the Pally has can compare to that at an equivalent level. Barb’s the way to go for this build.
paladins with GWM can very much match that kind of damage. 7d10+84 is not supremely amazing. It's very good.
Paladin (oathbreaker) 8 + hexblade 12 gets you 2d6 (weapon)+ 13 +5d8 +1d6 +10 twice (3 times on a crit or kill) 20d8+8d6+4d6+ 69 (that's one crit) 20d8 is average 100, 8d6 is average 32, 4d6 is average 16, +69 (mods don't double) is like 200 damage average, 301 max on one crit. Even without the crit, you still do over 150 damage easy.
That's all an aside because white room math is fun but useless.
Mechanically none except maybe advantage. ..
If you swap places you fall without levitate, and with levitate you float impotently. Levitate is OK if used aggressively, but defensively it's underwhelming, which is a shame because it seems like it would be amazing
No no. I meant as a multi class for an EK build. And at level 10, ~90-150 points of damage in a single turn is *huge*.
Gwm+ haste can do that easily without crit fishing, 5attacks is 75 damage + weapon rolls without crits. If one or 2 of those crit, it's better but not a lot (dice double but not modifiers). Greatsword is actually much better than greataxe on crits, because 4d6 is better than 2d12, 2 more attacks is better (30 more damage plus weapon rolls)
Our fighter reliably did better than 75 damage per round while hasted at 10, even on only 3 attacks (45+6d6, rerolling 1's and 2's) without even advantage. He's an EK, but he's never used any of his spells except one shield spell once (he has a magic sword but idk if it's +1 or +2
Our battlerager barb in a different game at 10th was doing roughly that damage on only 2 GWM attacks 2d12+20+10 (str)+4(weapon bonus)+6(rage), and a bonus action 1d4 punch for 1d4+5+2+3 (50 damage+2d12 [rerolling 1's and 2's] +1d4), with haste its another 1d12+20 on 4 attacks for a total of 70+3d12 (min 6 max 36)+1d4, for giggles we often also Enlarged him for another 1d4 on each of all attacks. Once he crit on everything but the punch, so instead it was 6d12+4d4+70
In the game with the battlerager, our 10th level gunsmith UA artificer crit for like I think 12d6+5, which is still up there around 60 damage
This is all just my opinion, but I personally think Barbarian is one of the best multiclasses for an Echo Knight for a few reasons.
Anyway, just my two cents if you are willing to dip a bit further. Obviously you'd give up Legion of One at 18th level, assuming you play that high.
The only anti-synergy I see with Ancestral Barb and Echo Knight is the competition for reaction. Echo probably has one of the better chances of getting an AoO thanks to its Echo and Ancestral protectors being a reaction as well seems like it might interfere.
However this is a small consideration and overall I think it fits well along with all the other points you made!
Re: Ancestral, I'll axe you this:
Granted, the number of characters you're actually going to take to level 20 is few and far between- but can you imagine the joy of getting to level 20 and getting TWO echoes; or the agony of getting to level 20 and being forever one level away from two echoes??
For myself and myself only, my EK is a character I'd like to take as high as I can. Really like the dude. Can't take away the opportunity to see what happens if and when I get to level 20.
Legion of one is gained at 18th level
@OptimusGrimus Say more? I didn't see anything about a reaction needed Ancestral Protectors. Spirit Shield at 6th however does require a reaction, but I won't multiclass that high personally.
@Conskinopoulos Yah, if you plan to play until 20th, I can see why you'd want to get Legion of One. However Legion of One doesn't actually increase your offense, does it (except of an extra Unleash Incarnation every now and then)? It is more about maneuverability and flexibility, and I would also concede, a really cool looking effect. If you like your character so much, please do feel free to share more about him, I'd love to hear.
Yes, yes- but we're talking about multiclass dips. A two-level dip in barb means that Legion of One is gained at 20.
I mixed up the abilities....the reaction to reduce damage mechanic is Spirit Shield you are correct.
It states in the rules you can summon the echo to an unoccupied 5' space anywhere you can see. Another ability states for exchange of 15' of movement you trade places with the echo. So if I can see the top of a tower, I put the echo there, then exchange places with it, and I'm on top of the tower.
Sorry, that's not correct, you can summon it within 15 feet of you.
"You can use a bonus action to magically manifest an echo of yourself in an unoccupied space you can see within 15 feet of you."
I honestly think the Echo Knight is overloaded as hell.
Honestly, on Level 3 alone, this subclass gets more stuff than some classes get in their whole life span...
Lets look at just Level 3 and see everything you get:
- A free, unlimited number of summoned bodies on the field. That alone is already inanely strong and makes every ambush useless unless the DM starts giving enemies the magical sense to see its only an Echo and not a real person with some illusion stuff on it.
- An unlimited amount of bonus action Teleports up to 45 feet (Summon Echo 15 feet away from you, make it move 30 feet, use bonus action to switch), that can bypass any barrier you can look through. This is litrally just an unlimited amount of misty steps in and out of combat. while basically remaining in Melee range for combat, since the Echo can still attack.
- A melee attack range of 30+ feet. Since the echo is only destroyed AT THE END of you turn when its more than 30 feet from you and not whenevr it is, you could, in theory, summon the echo 15 feet away from you, make it walk 30 feet towards the enemy move 30 feet away from the enemy and still attack with your melee attack, no penalty, even though you are now 75 feet away from the enemy... AND THIS WORKS WITH RANGED ATTACKS TOO!
- The Echo can also do an AoO for you, which means for example with Sentinel, you can totaly lock down an melee enemy for the whole fight with no risk to yourself and again, no ressource involved.
And that only the stuff your FIRST ability gives you, none of those has any form of cooldown or limitation...
And then you also get [Con mod] additional attacks per long rest... at least this one has a cooldown...
And thats just level 3...
on level 7 you basically have unlimited disposable fighters who can clear a dungeon for you. Seriously, equip a Longbow, sit your butt in front of a dungeon and you can literally send one echo after another in, chipping away the enemies. You can even barricade the entrance with only a small hole you can look through to send new Echos in...
Again, no ressources, no Cooldowns. You can do this all day if you want.
Level 10 and 15 are maybe the only abilities in this kit I would consider balanced...
And then at Level 18, you get 2 Echos, because why not...
This class needs serious changes to not be insanely strong with just 3 levels in fighter and Gamebreaking with 7...
I think you are overestimating the level 7 feature a lot...its just for scouting and cannot take any actions while doing so.
So you can't clear anything at all with that ability.
You’re literally correct- the echo avatar can only look and hear and move, but geez, move to the less literal and it’s ridiculous.
Send out your echo on a scouting mission way ahead of the party, able to walk in the air, under water, rough terrain, poison gas, makes no difference. Let’s say your echo meets some monsters and gets murdered. Re-send in the echo to a safe spot between there and where you are, then teleport to exchange places. Have the party join you. Send in the echo or lay an ambush. Forewarned is forearmed.
Bottomless pit? Echo Avatar across and switch places. Bridge out? Same thing. Wall of fire? Echo Avatar over it. Nuisance flying monster? Echo. And yep, so long as there’s a peephole into a solid door, why not send in the echo to keep assaulting the enemy while the party luxuriates behind the door? So long as you manifest the echo a good ways into the room, how would the monsters know where it’s coming from?
Fundamentally, the Echo Knight’s a one-trick pony, but man, that’s one helluva trick on one helluva pony.
Its good do not get me wrong...its just not as crazy as you would think.
I think Rune Knight is the most powerful at the moment...at level 7 you can force DIS on a spell check 10 times per short rest....a sorcerer would have to spend 3 SP to do it once.
I've been playing a pirate half-elf that is multiclassed into Bladesinger Wizard/Echo Knight. It's insane how mobile he is and the amount of burst damage he can do by bamfing around strategically.
Where does it say that?
The ability only adds stuff the the Echo, it doesnt take anything from it. Its still your Echo that has all the abilities from Level 3, including the one where you can take the attack action and have it originate from the Echos position, which has no range limit. Which means as long as the Echo is within 1000 feet of you with the level 7 ability, you can attack through it.