You can heighten your echo’s fury. Whenever you take the Attack action, you can make one additional melee attack from the echo’s position.
You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Constitution modifier (a minimum of once). You regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest.
Would this ability cause the enemy to be surprised by the attack? This is what I am referring about.
You can heighten your echo’s fury. Whenever you take the Attack action, you can make one additional melee attack from the echo’s position.
You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Constitution modifier (a minimum of once). You regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest.
Would this ability cause the enemy to be surprised by the attack? This is what I am referring about.
If you're trying to get a sneak attack or something, I would say no if I was DMing. Define surprise, what are we trying to get out of this mechanically?
question about the echo. does being on the ethereal plane count as more then 15 feet away? ive currently got a hex blade that likes blink shenanigans. though of multiclassing to echo knight but dont want my echo disappearing every time i blink out to the ethereal plane in combat. or would the echo blink with me to the plane when the spell effect triggers?
question about the echo. does being on the ethereal plane count as more then 15 feet away? ive currently got a hex blade that likes blink shenanigans. though of multiclassing to echo knight but dont want my echo disappearing every time i blink out to the ethereal plane in combat. or would the echo blink with me to the plane when the spell effect triggers?
I'm no expert in plane hopping. Considering you're on another plane of existence, I'd venture to guess thats a bit further than 30ft
They echo would not disappear. Being on a different plane of existence is considered being more than 30 feet away. But, you don't end your turn on the ethereal plane, so it wouldn't disappear, because the ability specifies "If your echo is ever more than 30 feet away from you at the end of your turn, it is destroyed."
It would neither blink with you or despawn. It would remain in its current position.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
They echo would not disappear. Being on a different plane of existence is considered being more than 30 feet away. But, you don't end your turn on the ethereal plane, so it wouldn't disappear, because the ability specifies "If your echo is ever more than 30 feet away from you at the end of your turn, it is destroyed."
It would neither blink with you or despawn. It would remain in its current position.
Might want to look at Blink again. You do end your turn on the ethereal plane.
It doesn't really matter too much though in this case.
RAW: The Echo vanish and the port to the ethereal plane is a simultaneous effect. Both happen at end of turn. So this happens:
XANATHAR'S GUIDE TO EVERYTHING -
Most effects in the game happen in succession, following an order set by the rules or the DM. In rare cases, effects can happen at the same time, especially at the start or end of a creature’s turn. If two or more things happen at the same time on a character or monster’s turn, the person at the game table — whether player or DM — who controls that creature decides the order in which those things happen. For example, if two effects occur at the end of a player character’s turn, the player decides which of the two effects happens first.
The player will never choose to do the jump then resolve the echo and have it disappear.
You mention that PAM would be a feat that you would consider with this build. (Could you elaborate on why?) So...The Knight would have to be the one to make the BA PAM strike, not the echo.
Can you confirm if this is why the BA attack won't work.
What I read in the rules -- When you take the Attack action you can use a bonus action to make a melee attack .. PAM
When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action* can originate from your space or the echo’s space. -- Echo Knight * Attack Action
(What I initially read was "any attack you make" -- one can't make a PAM attack without taking the attack action.)
I have a question regarding the Echo Knight. Can you manifest your echo BEHIND an enemy while engaged in combat, effectively surprising the enemy and stopping their next attack? Then when the enemy attacks if you have the sentinel feat, regardless if the enemy attacks you or the echo you have a reaction that you can use from either the echo or yourself to attack the enemy as a reaction?
Sentinel is of use to the Echo Knight primarily in the instance of the Manifest Echo's 3rd ability:
"When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against that creature as if you were in the echo’s space."
Doing this would allow the AoO by YOU from the ECHO's location, at the cost of your reaction, and if it lands, reduce the creature's speed to 0, per Sentinel.
The other two uses of Sentinel are determined from YOUR space, not your echo's. Sentinel will give you the reaction attack if you are within 5 feet of the creature and the creature is attacking your echo (or another target) within its reach.
"When a creature within 5 feet of you makes an attack against a target other than you (and that target doesn’t have this feat), you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against the attacking creature."
If you create the echo behind the creature, you do not automatically create the surprise condition. If the creature attacks you, you do not get to attack the creature from your echo's location. I'd say the surprise condition might come into play if: first, you nor the creature are in combat, second, you are concealed in a manner as to not cause the creature to engage in combat once you draw your weapon, and third, you create the echo behind the creature and you immediately make an attack from your echo's location.
I have a question regarding the Echo Knight. Can you manifest your echo BEHIND an enemy while engaged in combat, effectively surprising the enemy and stopping their next attack? Then when the enemy attacks if you have the sentinel feat, regardless if the enemy attacks you or the echo you have a reaction that you can use from either the echo or yourself to attack the enemy as a reaction?
The echo cannot make the sentinels special OA, so overall, no. You can Spawn it behind them, assuming you can see behind them, like how you can see the ground behind someone by looking at the gap between their legs. It probably wouldn't get surprise, at least I wouldn't rule that, and I don't think most other dms would.
I think a lot of the echo's movement comes down to interpretation. It can fly vertically, so how would that look? I imagine it moves almost like a lagging videogame, barely moving its limbs as it almost floats towards its destination
Considering the idea behind the Echo knight is to have a "you" from an alternate timeline present, you could just say in that Echo's timeline there's a tree so the Echo would look as if it's climbing up said tree.
Also I wanted to address a ranged Echo Knight. You went deep into movement + teleportation shenanigans and concluded that thus melee is the way, however there are some good uses of the Echo for a ranged Fighter as well. You can move the Echo to have a different line of sight to different targets, so they can't easily get cover. Since you can just easily swap places with your Echo an enemy would have to tag both, you and your Echo, to pin you down in melee as well. The enemy approaches you while you are sitting away from your team with your crossbow? Good thing your Echo is in a different location. Let the enemy get close and then switch and move 15ft away (together with your Echo). When he gets close to you again, switch and move again. If he decides to deal with the Echo so you can't switch anymore, move 30ft away and create a new one. An Echo Knight doesn't just offer great battlefield control (especially with Sentinel), it also is incredibly slippery if you want to.
Lastly, if I read it correctly the Echo Avatar feature doesn't disable the Manifest Echo features, so in that Avatar state you should be able to fly 30ft a round and swap places with your Echo over a much much greater distance than normally, which opens great new ways for infiltration, something Fighters usually aren't known for.
This seems to indicate you can't use the Avitar in that way.
Can you teleport to an Echo that is 1000’ away using the Echo Avatar feature? A: No by RAI, a Knight cannot teleport while using an Echo Avatar.
Jeremy Crawford tweeted, “The intent is that you can't do anything with the Echo Knight's echo while using Echo Avatar, other than scout with it. The text stating that intent is mysteriously missing from the book. We'll fix it in a future printing! Sorry about the confusion."
Can you split up Echo Knight movement? Ie: Is this turn legal? (assuming echo is already spawned and I have Extra Attack)
A) I mentally command the echo to move 15 feet to within melee range of Enemy 1 . B) I use an attack action to attack Enemy 1 using my echo. C) I mentally command the echo to move within 30 ft of me, but to melee range of Enemy 2(no opportunity attack, since echo doesn't provoke it.) D) I use my extra attack action to attack Enemy 2 using my echo. E) I mentally command the echo to move within 30 ft of me to a rooftop that I can see. F) I use my bonus action (and 15 ft of my movement) to switch places with the Echo. G) I use my movement to move an additional 15 ft, ending within 30 ft of the Echo.
When you attack through the echo's position, is it your actual weapon that attacks? Or an "echo" of the weapon? My group is fighting a mimic and the fighter attacks melee through the echo. I had the weapon stick to the mimic, he says no, as he is holding his weapon 30' away from the mimic. My thought is the weapon sticks, being yanked out of his grasp, he said his weapon actual weapon is 30' away. Help!
When you attack through the echo's position, is it your actual weapon that attacks? Or an "echo" of the weapon? My group is fighting a mimic and the fighter attacks melee through the echo. I had the weapon stick to the mimic, he says no, as he is holding his weapon 30' away from the mimic. My thought is the weapon sticks, being yanked out of his grasp, he said his weapon actual weapon is 30' away. Help!
I’d rule it as yes, it is your weapon. After all, they didn’t say the damage type changes at all, and you attack as if you were in your echos space, so presumably if you have a sun blade, attacking from the echo still uses the sun blade. Also, consider it like teleporting your arm through for a brief moment to attack, the weapon would come back with you, so it wouldn’t stick, like how if you’re grappled or restrained you can teleport out of it.
So is there a way to figure something like a "Plunging Attack" since the Echo can essentially fly? Like one turn BA spawn it, move it 30 ft in the air, next turn move it above the enemy and BA to teleport, thus falling and making an attack on the enemy?
Unleash Incarnation
3rd-level Echo Knight feature
You can heighten your echo’s fury. Whenever you take the Attack action, you can make one additional melee attack from the echo’s position.
You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Constitution modifier (a minimum of once). You regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest.
Would this ability cause the enemy to be surprised by the attack? This is what I am referring about.
If you're trying to get a sneak attack or something, I would say no if I was DMing. Define surprise, what are we trying to get out of this mechanically?
RAW, the only effect the surprised condition has relates to the first round of combat. You cannot surprise someone mid-combat.
Birgit | Shifter | Sorcerer | Dragonlords
Shayone | Hobgoblin | Sorcerer | Netherdeep
question about the echo. does being on the ethereal plane count as more then 15 feet away? ive currently got a hex blade that likes blink shenanigans. though of multiclassing to echo knight but dont want my echo disappearing every time i blink out to the ethereal plane in combat. or would the echo blink with me to the plane when the spell effect triggers?
I'm no expert in plane hopping. Considering you're on another plane of existence, I'd venture to guess thats a bit further than 30ft
Do u think the echo would blink with u or just despawn?
They echo would not disappear. Being on a different plane of existence is considered being more than 30 feet away. But, you don't end your turn on the ethereal plane, so it wouldn't disappear, because the ability specifies "If your echo is ever more than 30 feet away from you at the end of your turn, it is destroyed."
It would neither blink with you or despawn. It would remain in its current position.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Might want to look at Blink again. You do end your turn on the ethereal plane.
It doesn't really matter too much though in this case.
RAW: The Echo vanish and the port to the ethereal plane is a simultaneous effect. Both happen at end of turn. So this happens:
XANATHAR'S GUIDE TO EVERYTHING -
Most effects in the game happen in succession, following an order set by the rules or the DM. In rare cases, effects can happen at the same time, especially at the start or end of a creature’s turn. If two or more things happen at the same time on a character or monster’s turn, the person at the game table — whether player or DM — who controls that creature decides the order in which those things happen. For example, if two effects occur at the end of a player character’s turn, the player decides which of the two effects happens first.
The player will never choose to do the jump then resolve the echo and have it disappear.
@Fishapod
You mention that PAM would be a feat that you would consider with this build. (Could you elaborate on why?) So...The Knight would have to be the one to make the BA PAM strike, not the echo.
Can you confirm if this is why the BA attack won't work.
What I read in the rules -- When you take the Attack action you can use a bonus action to make a melee attack .. PAM
When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action* can originate from your space or the echo’s space. -- Echo Knight * Attack Action
(What I initially read was "any attack you make" -- one can't make a PAM attack without taking the attack action.)
Sentinel is of use to the Echo Knight primarily in the instance of the Manifest Echo's 3rd ability:
"When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against that creature as if you were in the echo’s space."
Doing this would allow the AoO by YOU from the ECHO's location, at the cost of your reaction, and if it lands, reduce the creature's speed to 0, per Sentinel.
The other two uses of Sentinel are determined from YOUR space, not your echo's. Sentinel will give you the reaction attack if you are within 5 feet of the creature and the creature is attacking your echo (or another target) within its reach.
"When a creature within 5 feet of you makes an attack against a target other than you (and that target doesn’t have this feat), you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against the attacking creature."
If you create the echo behind the creature, you do not automatically create the surprise condition. If the creature attacks you, you do not get to attack the creature from your echo's location. I'd say the surprise condition might come into play if: first, you nor the creature are in combat, second, you are concealed in a manner as to not cause the creature to engage in combat once you draw your weapon, and third, you create the echo behind the creature and you immediately make an attack from your echo's location.
This seems to indicate you can't use the Avitar in that way.
Can you teleport to an Echo that is 1000’ away using the Echo Avatar feature?
A: No by RAI, a Knight cannot teleport while using an Echo Avatar.
Echo Knight Movement question.
Can you split up Echo Knight movement? Ie: Is this turn legal? (assuming echo is already spawned and I have Extra Attack)
A) I mentally command the echo to move 15 feet to within melee range of Enemy 1 .
B) I use an attack action to attack Enemy 1 using my echo.
C) I mentally command the echo to move within 30 ft of me, but to melee range of Enemy 2(no opportunity attack, since echo doesn't provoke it.)
D) I use my extra attack action to attack Enemy 2 using my echo.
E) I mentally command the echo to move within 30 ft of me to a rooftop that I can see.
F) I use my bonus action (and 15 ft of my movement) to switch places with the Echo.
G) I use my movement to move an additional 15 ft, ending within 30 ft of the Echo.
Or can I move the echo only once per turn?
Only once per turn, for a max of 30 feet.
I believe you could split that, but it would be at dm discretion
When you attack through the echo's position, is it your actual weapon that attacks? Or an "echo" of the weapon? My group is fighting a mimic and the fighter attacks melee through the echo. I had the weapon stick to the mimic, he says no, as he is holding his weapon 30' away from the mimic. My thought is the weapon sticks, being yanked out of his grasp, he said his weapon actual weapon is 30' away. Help!
I’d rule it as yes, it is your weapon. After all, they didn’t say the damage type changes at all, and you attack as if you were in your echos space, so presumably if you have a sun blade, attacking from the echo still uses the sun blade. Also, consider it like teleporting your arm through for a brief moment to attack, the weapon would come back with you, so it wouldn’t stick, like how if you’re grappled or restrained you can teleport out of it.
So is there a way to figure something like a "Plunging Attack" since the Echo can essentially fly? Like one turn BA spawn it, move it 30 ft in the air, next turn move it above the enemy and BA to teleport, thus falling and making an attack on the enemy?
Not my chair, not my problem.
ive done this as my echo knight/hexblade before before. used it to eldritch smite. flavored it as a Detroit smash