I have another question (or pair of questions really);
1.) If I multiclass into Barbarian and gain Reckless Attack, can I use Reckless Attack to gain advantage on attacks I make through my Echo?
2.) If so, since the Echo is not in fact me but it is instead a magical object/ silhouette that looks like me, do enemies receive advantage when attacking it?
1.) I don't see why not. They're still attacks that you're making, just made from the space of your echo. 2.) If you're asking more generally, there are probably a wide variety of situations where an enemy might get advantage vs your echo. But if you're asking about reckless attack specifically, enemies should not have advantage vs your echo after you use reckless attack since the echo is not you.
I would check with your DM though, since this (mainly the latter) obviously wasn't an intentional rules interaction. shouldn't be the worst though, you are a martial afterall. Your DM could also play around it by having enemies use ranged attacks to target the manifester more frequently.
Basically this.
And to go a little further into it. Reckless attack is not a Positional Modifier. It would not change just because you attack through the echo or not and it would not affect the Echo because none of your special abilities or modifiers typically affect the Echo. While There is a level of Technicality that the magical item in a way is in part an extension of your character because it only exists because of your character and it's function is based entirely upon your Character and their abilities. It's Magical Item nature actually defines it's defenses as separate from yours. Being defined in this way has both positives and negatives. The Positive is such negative effects like reckless attack do not affect it's defenses. The negatives are that since echo Knight is a Fighter that can usually wear Platemail and magical armor and such that it's often not going to have as good of defenses or the magical riders such equipment might possess to protect it either.
One quick note... if an enemy's reaction is used to make an attack during your attack through the echo, then I would say that the enemy is attacking you (not the echo) at that point in time so they would get advantage if you were using Reckless Attack. But otherwise, when they are attacking the echo (and not you), there is no advantage granted from Reckless Attack.
One example of a negative that Fateless is talking about is having a cloak of displacement. It helps you by granting disadvantage when enemies attack you, but this doesn't apply when enemies attack your echo.
One quick note... if an enemy's reaction is used to make an attack during your attack through the echo, then I would say that the enemy is attacking you (not the echo) at that point in time so they would get advantage if you were using Reckless Attack.
the rules only state that you make your attacks from the position of the echo, not that you teleport to your echoes space, make an attack, and then teleport back to your own. you can rule it that way but it's not supported by RAW. though it is also an extreme edge case that would require your (the echo knight's) enemy to ready an action.
One quick note... if an enemy's reaction is used to make an attack during your attack through the echo, then I would say that the enemy is attacking you (not the echo) at that point in time so they would get advantage if you were using Reckless Attack.
the rules only state that you make your attacks from the position of the echo, not that you teleport to your echoes space, make an attack, and then teleport back to your own. you can rule it that way but it's not supported by RAW. though it is also an extreme edge case that would require your (the echo knight's) enemy to ready an action.
I just wanted to emphasis the bold part. *nod*
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Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
your echo is an object and not a creature. since there is no rule saying otherwise, it cannot make skill or ability checks.
personally, the 6th level echo knight's scouting ability is so far below that of a single 1st level spell that i'd just rule it could make stealth checks as a creature can. but this would be a homebrew rule unsupported by RAW
your echo is an object and not a creature. since there is no rule saying otherwise, it cannot make skill or ability checks.
personally, the 6th level echo knight's scouting ability is so far below that of a single 1st level spell that i'd just rule it could make stealth checks as a creature can. but this would be a homebrew rule unsupported by RAW
Your first point was what I thought, when I read the question. The echo can't take the hide action aka stealth, it's an object. Now, since the EK can control the echo, he/she could move it to places that are less likely to be seen or maybe held farther back (with the acceptable range for the echo), as the party tries to be stealthy. But the effectiveness of these methods would DM determined and if a creature looks at the echo, it can't hide, they will see it.
your echo is an object and not a creature. since there is no rule saying otherwise, it cannot make skill or ability checks.
personally, the 6th level echo knight's scouting ability is so far below that of a single 1st level spell that i'd just rule it could make stealth checks as a creature can. but this would be a homebrew rule unsupported by RAW
Your first point was what I thought, when I read the question. The echo can't take the hide action aka stealth, it's an object. Now, since the EK can control the echo, he/she could move it to places that are less likely to be seen or maybe held farther back (with the acceptable range for the echo), as the party tries to be stealthy. But the effectiveness of these methods would DM determined and if a creature looks at the echo, it can't hide, they will see it.
Just one question, if you were to cast Darkness, would you be able to target your echo for the Darkness to radiate from. I know that you can target objects, just unsure since it is a magical object.
Just one question, if you were to cast Darkness, would you be able to target your echo for the Darkness to radiate from. I know that you can target objects, just unsure since it is a magical object.
You could, but the spell is tied to the object and if the echo is ever destroyed or then the spell goes with it.
If a hidden creature makes an attack, it generally reveals the attacker. Also, if the attacker is inside an illusion, most DM's rule that any creature who observed the attack now perceives the illusion as false because the attacker physically interacted with the illusion.
...but what if the attack doesn't physically interact with the illusion? When the Knight attacks using the Echo, it originates from the Echo's position, and therefore I assume they don't interact with the illusion. Are they still unseen because they remain inside the illusion? Are they revealed regardless because they made an attack?
You give away your location when you attack, hit or miss. But having your location revealed isn't the same as being seen. As long as you are still obscured by the illusory box/rock/whatever, you can benefit from being an 'unseen attacker'.
And since your attack didn't cause any actual physical interaction with the crate/boulder/whatever, it won't be revealed as illusory. The Illusion can continue to obscure you from a creature until that creature either passes an investigation check or witnesses some form of physical interaction with the illusion.
You give away your location when you attack, hit or miss. But having your location revealed isn't the same as being seen. As long as you are still obscured by the illusory box/rock/whatever, you can benefit from being an 'unseen attacker'.
And since your attack didn't cause any actual physical interaction with the crate/boulder/whatever, it won't be revealed as illusory. The Illusion can continue to obscure you from a creature until that creature either passes an investigation check or witnesses some form of physical interaction with the illusion.
Okay, that's what I figured. There was some debate a few pages back about whether or not that grants advantage to the attacks because the Echo is seen, but at the very least the Knight is safe because enemies don't know he's in the illusion and it's unlikely they'd attack him.
Q: Can forced movement away from your Echo (e.g. an enemy being hit with a Repelling Blast) trigger an opportunity attack? Here is the relevant text:
When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against that creature as if you were in the echo's space.
It seems that it would according to the rules as written. Is that correct? Was it intended to be that way? I recognize that the general rule for opportunity attacks allows them to occur only when the movement is voluntary, but wouldn't this be a case of a specific rule overriding a general rule?
If you take the Disengage action, your Movement doesn’t provoke Opportunity Attacks for the rest of the turn.
...
You can avoid provoking an opportunity Attack by taking the Disengage action. You also don’t provoke an opportunity Attack when you Teleport or when someone or something moves you without using your Movement, action, or Reaction. For example, you don’t provoke an opportunity Attack if an explosion hurls you out of a foe’s reach or if gravity causes you to fall past an enemy.
I do think that this is slightly vague, but the rules above are generalized in such a way as to apply to ALL opportunity attacks, not just the default opportunity attack available to everyone.
I don't think anything in the echo knight rules actually overrides the bolded portion. It explicitly makes an opportunity attacks, which means it inherits all of the rules associated with opportunity attacks. That means that all methods that avoid opportunity attacks apply to this feature, such as forced movement, teleportation, or the disengage action.
Quick question…apologies if it’s already been covered.
Curious to know people’s thoughts for RP flavour, does the echo mirror the actions of the knight, i.e. does it sit when they do, raise its arm if the knight does etc. Or is it just a motionless illusion/image? Or could this be flavoured however you like?
Quick question…apologies if it’s already been covered.
Curious to know people’s thoughts for RP flavour, does the echo mirror the actions of the knight, i.e. does it sit when they do, raise its arm if the knight does etc. Or is it just a motionless illusion? Could this be flavoured however you like?
As long as you keep the game mechanics intact, you can flavor it however you want. Since it has a moderate AC, some attacks will miss, so I personally picture it making defensive maneuvers whenever it's not attacking.
Quick question…apologies if it’s already been covered.
Curious to know people’s thoughts for RP flavour, does the echo mirror the actions of the knight, i.e. does it sit when they do, raise its arm if the knight does etc. Or is it just a motionless illusion? Could this be flavoured however you like?
As long as you keep the game mechanics intact, you can flavor it however you want. Since it has a moderate AC, some attacks will miss, so I personally picture it making defensive maneuvers whenever it's not attacking.
Definitely flavor away. Perhaps the Echo looks like a shadow, or a ghostly spirit of a long lost ancestor. I actually imagine the Knight standing there with her arms crossed (weapon still in hand), while the Echo is dodging, waving and attacking in combat. Note that the attack is still based on whatever weapon the Knight is wielding. But check with your DM on what is okay and what isn't, as this might to an advantage if the enemy can't figure out the Echo is related to the Knight.
Basically this.
And to go a little further into it. Reckless attack is not a Positional Modifier. It would not change just because you attack through the echo or not and it would not affect the Echo because none of your special abilities or modifiers typically affect the Echo. While There is a level of Technicality that the magical item in a way is in part an extension of your character because it only exists because of your character and it's function is based entirely upon your Character and their abilities. It's Magical Item nature actually defines it's defenses as separate from yours. Being defined in this way has both positives and negatives. The Positive is such negative effects like reckless attack do not affect it's defenses. The negatives are that since echo Knight is a Fighter that can usually wear Platemail and magical armor and such that it's often not going to have as good of defenses or the magical riders such equipment might possess to protect it either.
One quick note... if an enemy's reaction is used to make an attack during your attack through the echo, then I would say that the enemy is attacking you (not the echo) at that point in time so they would get advantage if you were using Reckless Attack. But otherwise, when they are attacking the echo (and not you), there is no advantage granted from Reckless Attack.
One example of a negative that Fateless is talking about is having a cloak of displacement. It helps you by granting disadvantage when enemies attack you, but this doesn't apply when enemies attack your echo.
That's an edge case where your ruling still doesn't match the RAW. Just be conscious of how your players will take your rulings; for good and for ill.
the rules only state that you make your attacks from the position of the echo, not that you teleport to your echoes space, make an attack, and then teleport back to your own. you can rule it that way but it's not supported by RAW. though it is also an extreme edge case that would require your (the echo knight's) enemy to ready an action.
I just wanted to emphasis the bold part. *nod*
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
The_Humble_Giant, A++++ for this thread!
Has stealth been brought up? How sneaky can you be when using the Avatar as a scout? Do you use whatever your normal Stealth roll would be?
your echo is an object and not a creature. since there is no rule saying otherwise, it cannot make skill or ability checks.
personally, the 6th level echo knight's scouting ability is so far below that of a single 1st level spell that i'd just rule it could make stealth checks as a creature can. but this would be a homebrew rule unsupported by RAW
Your first point was what I thought, when I read the question. The echo can't take the hide action aka stealth, it's an object. Now, since the EK can control the echo, he/she could move it to places that are less likely to be seen or maybe held farther back (with the acceptable range for the echo), as the party tries to be stealthy. But the effectiveness of these methods would DM determined and if a creature looks at the echo, it can't hide, they will see it.
This all makes sense.
Just one question, if you were to cast Darkness, would you be able to target your echo for the Darkness to radiate from. I know that you can target objects, just unsure since it is a magical object.
You could, but the spell is tied to the object and if the echo is ever destroyed or then the spell goes with it.
If all of the above applies, then in technicality a floating object would make no sound thus making echo's perfect for stealth right?
If a hidden creature makes an attack, it generally reveals the attacker. Also, if the attacker is inside an illusion, most DM's rule that any creature who observed the attack now perceives the illusion as false because the attacker physically interacted with the illusion.
...but what if the attack doesn't physically interact with the illusion? When the Knight attacks using the Echo, it originates from the Echo's position, and therefore I assume they don't interact with the illusion. Are they still unseen because they remain inside the illusion? Are they revealed regardless because they made an attack?
You give away your location when you attack, hit or miss. But having your location revealed isn't the same as being seen. As long as you are still obscured by the illusory box/rock/whatever, you can benefit from being an 'unseen attacker'.
And since your attack didn't cause any actual physical interaction with the crate/boulder/whatever, it won't be revealed as illusory. The Illusion can continue to obscure you from a creature until that creature either passes an investigation check or witnesses some form of physical interaction with the illusion.
Okay, that's what I figured. There was some debate a few pages back about whether or not that grants advantage to the attacks because the Echo is seen, but at the very least the Knight is safe because enemies don't know he's in the illusion and it's unlikely they'd attack him.
Q: Can forced movement away from your Echo (e.g. an enemy being hit with a Repelling Blast) trigger an opportunity attack? Here is the relevant text:
It seems that it would according to the rules as written. Is that correct? Was it intended to be that way? I recognize that the general rule for opportunity attacks allows them to occur only when the movement is voluntary, but wouldn't this be a case of a specific rule overriding a general rule?
I do think that this is slightly vague, but the rules above are generalized in such a way as to apply to ALL opportunity attacks, not just the default opportunity attack available to everyone.
I don't think anything in the echo knight rules actually overrides the bolded portion. It explicitly makes an opportunity attacks, which means it inherits all of the rules associated with opportunity attacks. That means that all methods that avoid opportunity attacks apply to this feature, such as forced movement, teleportation, or the disengage action.
Quick question…apologies if it’s already been covered.
Curious to know people’s thoughts for RP flavour, does the echo mirror the actions of the knight, i.e. does it sit when they do, raise its arm if the knight does etc. Or is it just a motionless illusion/image? Or could this be flavoured however you like?
As long as you keep the game mechanics intact, you can flavor it however you want. Since it has a moderate AC, some attacks will miss, so I personally picture it making defensive maneuvers whenever it's not attacking.
Definitely flavor away. Perhaps the Echo looks like a shadow, or a ghostly spirit of a long lost ancestor. I actually imagine the Knight standing there with her arms crossed (weapon still in hand), while the Echo is dodging, waving and attacking in combat. Note that the attack is still based on whatever weapon the Knight is wielding. But check with your DM on what is okay and what isn't, as this might to an advantage if the enemy can't figure out the Echo is related to the Knight.