I was asking if the Knight can maintain a grapple on its own target and then make an attack through the echo either on the same target, but more specifically on a target only in range of the echo.
can knight grapple target a, and then attack target b through the echo?
I apologize. That's not how my brain interpreted it. So that was my misunderstanding.
yes they can. and for basically the same reason. because it's coming from the position of the echo in the matter of concerning the attack and not your physical body which is busy grappling. And your physical body doesn't break grappling by RaW because you don't actually fail requirements like moving away from them because the Grapple only cares about your physical body. And having and maintaining a grapple does not stop you from being able to make an attack.
Thinking of using a bastard sword or doing dex based with a duelling fighting style.
* dang looks like bastard sword is now the versatile of the long sword. Won’t be able to use dex here will have to go str or shortsword or reskin a rapier.
the grapple isn’t essential to the build I was just curious.
now I’m exploring other image options, especially the trickery domain cleric but trying to form a thematic flavour for the combination, how many levels for a low level setting (1-10) and weapons proficiency
creates some interesting options for feats but still thinking sentinel first v.human I think I need to move to a different thread for character creation. Can get a silent illusion early but doesn’t seem worth the cast, also disguise self before the invoke duplicity/ manifest echo should be able to get them to all look the same.
So, I want to get others opinions on this. Because reasons, I may be starting a silver UA Dragonborn. The UA allows you to mix your breath weapon into your attacks.
Breath Weapon
When you take the Attack action, you can replace one of your attacks with an exhalation of a magical energy in a 15-foot cone.
From the Echo Knight
When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo’s space. You make this choice for each attack.
Given you are specifically using the breath weapon as a part of the attack option, is everyone else reading this as the echo can use the breath weapon as well?
Yes and No. The Echo is this oddball little thing that we don't really know how it's attacking.
So in a sense because your doing it from the Echo's location and using that location for several factors about doing so. Yes the Echo is doing it.
But at the same time. The Echo is just a semi-intangible extension of your character manifest in reality that your acting through so in that sense... No it's not the echo doing it, it's you doing it and just using the Echo as a medium for delivery if that makes sense.
No - the echo replacement is not for everything you could possibly do during your Attack action. It only applies to individual attacks within the Attack action. The breath weapon is replacing one of your attacks with something else entirely, so it still must come from your original body.
The only reason something like a shove works is because it is explicitly referred to as a "Special melee attack".
I would think the answer is "yes," you can. The breath weapon is a legitimate attack you can make when you take the Attack action. Any attack that you can make with the Attack action, can go through the Echo. The wording is the same.
UA Dragonborn breath weapon: “when you take the Attack action, you can replace one of your attacks with an exhalation of a magical energy.”
From the Echo Knight
When you take the Attack action on your turn, anyattack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo’s space. You make this choice for each attack.
No - the echo replacement is not for everything you could possibly do during your Attack action. It only applies to individual attacks within the Attack action. The breath weapon is replacing one of your attacks with something else entirely, so it still must come from your original body.
The only reason something like a shove works is because it is explicitly referred to as a "Special melee attack".
Incorrect with this. anything that can be made through an attack by the attack action can be done through the Echo. Shove works because it works through an attack made by the Attack Action. Not because it's called out as a "special melee attack". The Breath Weapon works for the same reason.
The reason that Shove is called out as a "Special Melee Attack" is because you do not make an attack roll or the enemy make a save roll to use it, which are the normal operations for attacks. You make an opposed skill check instead which is not normally made by attacks.
When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo's space. You make this choice for each attack.
The UA dragonborn says:
When you take the Attack action, you can replace one of your attacks with an exhalation of a magical energy in a 15-foot cone.
The exhalation is NOT an attack. It is something you do instead of making an attack. The Echo Knight feature only works with attacks.
No - the echo replacement is not for everything you could possibly do during your Attack action. It only applies to individual attacks within the Attack action. The breath weapon is replacing one of your attacks with something else entirely, so it still must come from your original body.
The only reason something like a shove works is because it is explicitly referred to as a "Special melee attack".
Incorrect with this. anything that can be made through an attack by the attack action can be done through the Echo. Shove works because it works through an attack made by the Attack Action. Not because it's called out as a "special melee attack". The Breath Weapon works for the same reason.
The reason that Shove is called out as a "Special Melee Attack" is because you do not make an attack roll or the enemy make a save roll to use it, which are the normal operations for attacks. You make an opposed skill check instead which is not normally made by attacks.
No, you're wrong about the breath weapon. Manifest Echo explicitly states the following in its second bullet:
"When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo’s space. You make this choice for each attack."
Now, look again at the language for the breath weapons from the Draconic Races (UA). Even though it can replace an attack when taking the Attack action, it isn't an attack because there's no attack roll. Therefor, it cannot possibly originate from the same space the echo occupies. It must originate from the dragonborn.
P.S. The reason an Echo Knight can Shove through their echo is because the act of shoving a creature is explicitly called an attack. And Manifest Echo allows attacks, made as part of the Attack action, to originate from its space. That's why it works. Aethelwolf had it right the first time around.
Hey guys, amazing effort on the post! Thanks to everyone who collaborated, this was really eye opening.
I have something to add to the discussion regarding Defense.*
Q11: Can an Echo use class features of the Knight, for instance could it use Rogueish evasion to save against an AOE spell? A: No, because Echo's themselves cannot take Reactions, and the Knight wouldn't be the target of the attack that triggers those reactions, the Echo is. The only reaction the Echo can "take" is allowing the Knight to make an opportunity attack from its position. (thanks @LeviRocks)
The example mentioned in the question (Evasion) does not require a rogue's reaction. (This has some comic interactions with evasion still triggering while a rogue is unconscious, but that's beside the point.)
The text for a rogue's evasion states: "Beginning at 7th level, you can nimbly dodge out of the way of certain area effects, such as a red dragon's fiery breath or an ice storm spell. When you are subjected to an effect that allows you to make a Dexterity saving throw to take only half damage, you instead take no damage if you succeed on the saving throw, and only half damage if you fail."
So I would still rule that evasion does not apply for a Knight's Echo since the Manifest Echo feature mentions that "If it [the echo] has to make a saving throw, it uses your saving throw bonus for the roll." But nowhere does it mention additional features/traits/items/effect/etc. that would alter the saving throw in other ways for the Knight also affecting the Echo (similarly for evasion, it does not mention it extending to magical objects the rogue may control). And for all intents and purposes the Echo is a magical object that has a bonus for certain saving throws.
Now this does pose an additional question.
Q: Does a feature like a Paladin's Aura of Protection (bonus to saving throws) extend to the Echo? What if the Knight is in range of the aura? My humble answer would be that the aura itself does not protect the Echo since it only affects "friendly creatures", but if the Knight is in range of the aura (regardless of the position of the Echo) the Echo would also gain that same bonus to its saving throw. This works whether the Knight themselves is also paladin, or just in range of a Paladin's Aura of Protection.
*Disclaimer: I've read through the entirety of the original FAQ and some (but not all) of the comments so if this was already discussed, my apologies.
im fine with most of the stuff in this clarification, but the clause that only spells which target objects can target the echo knight seems like it's getting overly technical to me. i tend to be partial toward people creatively using spells, so i for one would be fine with eldritch blast (and other creature-targeting spells) targeting objects as well for a specific purpose. in the same vein that im willing to rule that the grease created by the grease spell is flammable if people (or npcs) want to get creative with it.
(the inflammable grease thing always bothered me anyway - it's an overly strict interpretation of the spell text. saying that Grease isn't flammable when most types of grease in the real world most definitely are feels akin to saying that the stone created by Wall of Stone is invisible because nowhere in the spell description does it specify that it's opaque or blocks line of sight.)
A little off-topic, but perhaps worth talking about.
Don't let names fool you. The spell grease doesn't create flammable grease at all. The material components are "a bit of pork rind or butter." Neither of those are universally flammable. You can make a candle out of butter, but it won't go up in a flash fire. And pork rinds are just pig skin; cured or fried into a snack. The meta joke is greasing a pig. In fact, lots of spells have meta jokes in their material components.
The spell confusion requires three nut shells (a shell game). The spell gust of wind requires a legume seed (a fart joke). The spell locate object requires a forked twig (a dowsing rod).
There's nothing overly-strict about saying grease doesn't create a flammable area. Spells only do what they say they do. If you open up spells to allow things not covered by their descriptions, then the descriptions no longer matter. Any spell can do anything. That said, if you, as DM, wish to make some changes for your home game, that's acceptable. But be clear about those changes with your players. Make them known ahead of time. The last thing you want to do is spring one of those homebrewed interactions on your players and get accused of making things unfair.
Barring that, if you want a control spell that explicitly creates a flammable area then web is probably what you're looking for. (I had some players last week pull that combo off beautifully.) The conjured grease isn't petroleum-based. It isn't even vegetable-based, like the contents of a flask of oil. It has a finite duration and can be dispelled. And your complaints about wall of stone read like a bad faith argument. It's solid stone. You don't need a rule to tell you stone is opaque.
###
Back to the idea of the echo being an object. I get the frustration with not a lot of spells being able to affect it, but this is perfectly fine. The echo only ever has only one hit point. It's not a creature, so it cannot benefit from temporary hit points. Any successful weapon attack will remove it from play. And while the Echo Knight can always conjure another one, infinitum, conjuring one does prevent them from using it to teleport. It deprives them of Second Wind. If they prefer Two Weapon Fighting, then it denies them an attack. It's actually pretty balanced.
I have another question (or pair of questions really);
1.) If I multiclass into Barbarian and gain Reckless Attack, can I use Reckless Attack to gain advantage on attacks I make through my Echo?
2.) If so, since the Echo is not in fact me but it is instead a magical object/ silhouette that looks like me, do enemies recieve advantage when attacking it?
I have another question (or pair of questions really);
1.) If I multiclass into Barbarian and gain Reckless Attack, can I use Reckless Attack to gain advantage on attacks I make through my Echo?
2.) If so, since the Echo is not in fact me but it is instead a magical object/ silhouette that looks like me, do enemies receive advantage when attacking it?
1.) I don't see why not. They're still attacks that you're making, just made from the space of your echo. 2.) If you're asking more generally, there are probably a wide variety of situations where an enemy might get advantage vs your echo. But if you're asking about reckless attack specifically, enemies should not have advantage vs your echo after you use reckless attack since the echo is not you.
I would check with your DM though, since this (mainly the latter) obviously wasn't an intentional rules interaction. shouldn't be the worst though, you are a martial afterall. Your DM could also play around it by having enemies use ranged attacks to target the manifester more frequently.
I have another question (or pair of questions really);
1.) If I multiclass into Barbarian and gain Reckless Attack, can I use Reckless Attack to gain advantage on attacks I make through my Echo?
2.) If so, since the Echo is not in fact me but it is instead a magical object/ silhouette that looks like me, do enemies receive advantage when attacking it?
1.) I don't see why not. They're still attacks that you're making, just made from the space of your echo. 2.) If you're asking more generally, there are probably a wide variety of situations where an enemy might get advantage vs your echo. But if you're asking about reckless attack specifically, enemies should not have advantage vs your echo after you use reckless attack since the echo is not you.
I would check with your DM though, since this (mainly the latter) obviously wasn't an intentional rules interaction. shouldn't be the worst though, you are a martial afterall. Your DM could also play around it by having enemies use ranged attacks to target the manifester more frequently.
I agree with everything said in here. The echo is not you, so Reckless Attack will not cause enemies to have advantage on the echo.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
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That's what I had a feeling you were asking. Thank you for the clarification.
And yes, they can.
I apologize. That's not how my brain interpreted it. So that was my misunderstanding.
yes they can. and for basically the same reason. because it's coming from the position of the echo in the matter of concerning the attack and not your physical body which is busy grappling. And your physical body doesn't break grappling by RaW because you don't actually fail requirements like moving away from them because the Grapple only cares about your physical body. And having and maintaining a grapple does not stop you from being able to make an attack.
Sweet! Thanks so much! Looking forward to digging into the previous threads!
I don't think you could hold the grapple and attack with a 2 handed weapon though, could you? Where would you get the spare hand?
Thinking of using a bastard sword or doing dex based with a duelling fighting style.
* dang looks like bastard sword is now the versatile of the long sword. Won’t be able to use dex here will have to go str or shortsword or reskin a rapier.
the grapple isn’t essential to the build I was just curious.
now I’m exploring other image options, especially the trickery domain cleric but trying to form a thematic flavour for the combination, how many levels for a low level setting (1-10) and weapons proficiency
Looks like fighter 3/ cleric 2 is online.
creates some interesting options for feats but still thinking sentinel first v.human I think I need to move to a different thread for character creation. Can get a silent illusion early but doesn’t seem worth the cast, also disguise self before the invoke duplicity/ manifest echo should be able to get them to all look the same.
So, I want to get others opinions on this. Because reasons, I may be starting a silver UA Dragonborn. The UA allows you to mix your breath weapon into your attacks.
Breath Weapon
When you take the Attack action, you can replace one of your attacks with an exhalation of a magical energy in a 15-foot cone.
From the Echo Knight
Given you are specifically using the breath weapon as a part of the attack option, is everyone else reading this as the echo can use the breath weapon as well?
Yes and No. The Echo is this oddball little thing that we don't really know how it's attacking.
So in a sense because your doing it from the Echo's location and using that location for several factors about doing so. Yes the Echo is doing it.
But at the same time. The Echo is just a semi-intangible extension of your character manifest in reality that your acting through so in that sense... No it's not the echo doing it, it's you doing it and just using the Echo as a medium for delivery if that makes sense.
No - the echo replacement is not for everything you could possibly do during your Attack action. It only applies to individual attacks within the Attack action. The breath weapon is replacing one of your attacks with something else entirely, so it still must come from your original body.
The only reason something like a shove works is because it is explicitly referred to as a "Special melee attack".
I would think the answer is "yes," you can. The breath weapon is a legitimate attack you can make when you take the Attack action. Any attack that you can make with the Attack action, can go through the Echo. The wording is the same.
UA Dragonborn breath weapon: “when you take the Attack action, you can replace one of your attacks with an exhalation of a magical energy.”
From the Echo Knight
Incorrect with this. anything that can be made through an attack by the attack action can be done through the Echo. Shove works because it works through an attack made by the Attack Action. Not because it's called out as a "special melee attack". The Breath Weapon works for the same reason.
The reason that Shove is called out as a "Special Melee Attack" is because you do not make an attack roll or the enemy make a save roll to use it, which are the normal operations for attacks. You make an opposed skill check instead which is not normally made by attacks.
The Echo knight says
The UA dragonborn says:
The exhalation is NOT an attack. It is something you do instead of making an attack. The Echo Knight feature only works with attacks.
No, you're wrong about the breath weapon. Manifest Echo explicitly states the following in its second bullet:
"When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo’s space. You make this choice for each attack."
Now, look again at the language for the breath weapons from the Draconic Races (UA). Even though it can replace an attack when taking the Attack action, it isn't an attack because there's no attack roll. Therefor, it cannot possibly originate from the same space the echo occupies. It must originate from the dragonborn.
P.S.
The reason an Echo Knight can Shove through their echo is because the act of shoving a creature is explicitly called an attack. And Manifest Echo allows attacks, made as part of the Attack action, to originate from its space. That's why it works. Aethelwolf had it right the first time around.
Welp, I concede. Breath Weapon doesn't break invis, so is not considered an attack. Echo can't use breath weapon.
https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/1060572973411786752?s=19
@JeremyECrawford A dragon with level 2 invisibility cast on itself, may use its breath weapon without becoming visible, is it correct?
That's correct.
Hey guys, amazing effort on the post! Thanks to everyone who collaborated, this was really eye opening.
I have something to add to the discussion regarding Defense.*
The example mentioned in the question (Evasion) does not require a rogue's reaction. (This has some comic interactions with evasion still triggering while a rogue is unconscious, but that's beside the point.)
The text for a rogue's evasion states: "Beginning at 7th level, you can nimbly dodge out of the way of certain area effects, such as a red dragon's fiery breath or an ice storm spell. When you are subjected to an effect that allows you to make a Dexterity saving throw to take only half damage, you instead take no damage if you succeed on the saving throw, and only half damage if you fail."
So I would still rule that evasion does not apply for a Knight's Echo since the Manifest Echo feature mentions that "If it [the echo] has to make a saving throw, it uses your saving throw bonus for the roll." But nowhere does it mention additional features/traits/items/effect/etc. that would alter the saving throw in other ways for the Knight also affecting the Echo (similarly for evasion, it does not mention it extending to magical objects the rogue may control). And for all intents and purposes the Echo is a magical object that has a bonus for certain saving throws.
Now this does pose an additional question.
Q: Does a feature like a Paladin's Aura of Protection (bonus to saving throws) extend to the Echo? What if the Knight is in range of the aura?
My humble answer would be that the aura itself does not protect the Echo since it only affects "friendly creatures", but if the Knight is in range of the aura (regardless of the position of the Echo) the Echo would also gain that same bonus to its saving throw. This works whether the Knight themselves is also paladin, or just in range of a Paladin's Aura of Protection.
*Disclaimer: I've read through the entirety of the original FAQ and some (but not all) of the comments so if this was already discussed, my apologies.
im fine with most of the stuff in this clarification, but the clause that only spells which target objects can target the echo knight seems like it's getting overly technical to me. i tend to be partial toward people creatively using spells, so i for one would be fine with eldritch blast (and other creature-targeting spells) targeting objects as well for a specific purpose. in the same vein that im willing to rule that the grease created by the grease spell is flammable if people (or npcs) want to get creative with it.
(the inflammable grease thing always bothered me anyway - it's an overly strict interpretation of the spell text. saying that Grease isn't flammable when most types of grease in the real world most definitely are feels akin to saying that the stone created by Wall of Stone is invisible because nowhere in the spell description does it specify that it's opaque or blocks line of sight.)
A little off-topic, but perhaps worth talking about.
Don't let names fool you. The spell grease doesn't create flammable grease at all. The material components are "a bit of pork rind or butter." Neither of those are universally flammable. You can make a candle out of butter, but it won't go up in a flash fire. And pork rinds are just pig skin; cured or fried into a snack. The meta joke is greasing a pig. In fact, lots of spells have meta jokes in their material components.
The spell confusion requires three nut shells (a shell game).
The spell gust of wind requires a legume seed (a fart joke).
The spell locate object requires a forked twig (a dowsing rod).
There's nothing overly-strict about saying grease doesn't create a flammable area. Spells only do what they say they do. If you open up spells to allow things not covered by their descriptions, then the descriptions no longer matter. Any spell can do anything. That said, if you, as DM, wish to make some changes for your home game, that's acceptable. But be clear about those changes with your players. Make them known ahead of time. The last thing you want to do is spring one of those homebrewed interactions on your players and get accused of making things unfair.
Barring that, if you want a control spell that explicitly creates a flammable area then web is probably what you're looking for. (I had some players last week pull that combo off beautifully.) The conjured grease isn't petroleum-based. It isn't even vegetable-based, like the contents of a flask of oil. It has a finite duration and can be dispelled. And your complaints about wall of stone read like a bad faith argument. It's solid stone. You don't need a rule to tell you stone is opaque.
###
Back to the idea of the echo being an object. I get the frustration with not a lot of spells being able to affect it, but this is perfectly fine. The echo only ever has only one hit point. It's not a creature, so it cannot benefit from temporary hit points. Any successful weapon attack will remove it from play. And while the Echo Knight can always conjure another one, infinitum, conjuring one does prevent them from using it to teleport. It deprives them of Second Wind. If they prefer Two Weapon Fighting, then it denies them an attack. It's actually pretty balanced.
I have another question (or pair of questions really);
1.) If I multiclass into Barbarian and gain Reckless Attack, can I use Reckless Attack to gain advantage on attacks I make through my Echo?
2.) If so, since the Echo is not in fact me but it is instead a magical object/ silhouette that looks like me, do enemies recieve advantage when attacking it?
1.) I don't see why not. They're still attacks that you're making, just made from the space of your echo.
2.) If you're asking more generally, there are probably a wide variety of situations where an enemy might get advantage vs your echo. But if you're asking about reckless attack specifically, enemies should not have advantage vs your echo after you use reckless attack since the echo is not you.
I would check with your DM though, since this (mainly the latter) obviously wasn't an intentional rules interaction. shouldn't be the worst though, you are a martial afterall. Your DM could also play around it by having enemies use ranged attacks to target the manifester more frequently.
I agree with everything said in here. The echo is not you, so Reckless Attack will not cause enemies to have advantage on the echo.
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"