Well this has been a wild ride from start to finish so far, if I could throw my two cents in on it as well, personally I think of the Echo as an inverted magical object. Inverted in the sense of magnets repelling each other on the same pole, with creatures and certain magical spells being "tuned" to affect certain poles. Looking at it in the way that creatures and natural materials all possess some inherent affinity to the "Positive" pole lets say, this Echo has a "Negative" pole. The magnet analogy doesn't work perfectly in this aspect I know, but in the realm of Dungeons and Dragons a perfect cross-over isn't always feasible. But continuing on this path regardless, say that instead of Positive poles repelling each other, opposite "magical poles" repel, which would explain how the magical, translucent gray image, of yourself has an AC, you're trying to force your weapon to hit something that has a minor repelling factor to it, that is trying to push, or reflect your weapon attack, away from itself. In that same manner certain spells being specifically focused on either "positive" or "negative" magical poles, would be either unable, or able to affect the Echo.
In regards to the Echo being affected by the "Levitate" spell, I would say yes, it would be affected, however with the Echo being able to be moved by the Knight in any direction, including along the Z axis, the Knight could move it and basically break the levitate spell. The only interesting use of this I could think of with this combo however would be that since RAW states " If your echo is ever more than 30 feet from you at the end of your turn, it is destroyed", if this is done After the end of the Knights turn, it would not be destroyed if the levitate spell moves it further than 30 feet away from the Knight. As for how to explain it, I would argue to say that "levitate" does not affect the creature or object affected by the spell itself, rather it affects the flow of the magic surrounding that creature or object. Meaning that the very air itself has a magical affinity to it, and you are pushing or pulling the surrounding magical property to manipulate the creature/object in the manner of the description of the spell itself. Fun thought, and definitely a DM call I would say considering the potential opportunities it could create.
Alternatively, following along the previous thought for the experiment of using catapult on the Echo, this one on my end gets a bit strange on definition. Previously I had stated that in my mind it (the Echo) is an "inverted magical object". Continuing this line of thought I would argue that since it is "tangible" in the sense that it cannot be manifested in an occupied space, it would have what I would consider a "magical negative mass". One directly proportional to the Knight who manifested it. In that instance you could say that the Echo "weighs" the opposite of whatever the Knight weighs, in a strange magical way, and since the catapult spell specifically states the object must be "...weighing 1 to 5 pounds...", the Echo would never satisfy these constraints. Also, I have no idea what would happen if you tried to catapult something with a theoretical "negative" weight. Yeah I get Helium and all that, but the Echo in my mind at this point pushes against even the air to hold where it is, so it could even simply stay in the air after whatever magical force is propelling said loose object stops and science takes over. Or, you could argue that the Echo isn't a "loose" object. This one is up to the individual DM, but personally I just wouldn't see it working. Would hilarious as can be I'll admit, but anyways.
As for using the Echo as a foothold or a means of transport of any variety, that same reflection (or more accurately, repulsion) would constantly try to push away from that creature. Going back to the magnet analogy, ever tried balancing two magnets on the same pole to levitate one? It *can* work, but the level of difficulty is insane. Even the most minor of fluctuations can cause one to slip away from the other, and well the analogy doesn't hold up beyond that point, but I'm pretty sure people would get the point. If an Echo were to try to hold a torch, they would push away from each other and ultimately end up dropping said torch. Same with creatures.
Long story short, it's magic, and magic is hard to explain, and in the end it's up to the DM to determine how reality and magic work in their worlds. Thoughts?
can you Manifest Echo with Twinned Spell Metamagic ?
no, because it isn't a spell, doesn't target anything, and the ability itself declares you can only have one echo at a time until the capstone.
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Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
If an Echo is put into a space that has an AoE spell going, let's say web or spike growth, when the knight attacks through the echo does he suffer from the AoE's effects? So, if he pops into a web spell, does he make a save to determine whether or not he's webbed? Pops into spike growth, does he take damage?
Along those same lines, since an echo can be up in the air, if the echo is put 30 feet high above, let's say, a lava field, when the knight pops through does he start to fall immediately?
If an Echo is put into a space that has an AoE spell going, let's say web or spike growth, when the knight attacks through the echo does he suffer from the AoE's effects? So, if he pops into a web spell, does he make a save to determine whether or not he's webbed? Pops into spike growth, does he take damage?
Along those same lines, since an echo can be up in the air, if the echo is put 30 feet high above, let's say, a lava field, when the knight pops through does he start to fall immediately?
The Echo Knight does not actually teleport themselves to the Echo's location to make the attack. They remain in their own space, and the attack magically originates from the echo's space. So the Knight will not be 'entering' a space with Web or need to worry about falling.
If an Echo is put into a space that has an AoE spell going, let's say web or spike growth, when the knight attacks through the echo does he suffer from the AoE's effects? So, if he pops into a web spell, does he make a save to determine whether or not he's webbed? Pops into spike growth, does he take damage?
Along those same lines, since an echo can be up in the air, if the echo is put 30 feet high above, let's say, a lava field, when the knight pops through does he start to fall immediately?
The Echo Knight does not actually teleport themselves to the Echo's location to make the attack. They remain in their own space, and the attack magically originates from the echo's space. So the Knight will not be 'entering' a space with Web or need to worry about falling.
Hmm, that's confusing then. The first question under attacks in this FAQ states, "No, the Echo never attacks, the Knight simply attacks from the Echo’s position." Is there something somewhere that clarifies this? Thanks for the reply!
The answer is right there in the text of the feature.
When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo’s space. You make this choice for each attack.
The attack can originate from either space, but the relative space of the fighter doesn't change.
Hello, I have not gotten in this situation yet but as an echo knight player and new to d&d, I would like to ask this very tricky question.
If I as an echo knight am in combat and I have my echo out next to me, and right before my turn, I get banished.... can I then during my turn, switch places with my echo even though me and my echo are cross dimensions/planes.
The switching of places not bound my distance and an echo knights might happen to be based on the fleeing magic of multiverse theory, so I was wondering what the most likely resolution would be when I try to switch places cross planes.
The Banishment spell states that any creature that is banished while on its native plane is also Incapacitated and can take no actions or reactions. I believe "no actions" means both standard and bonus actions, so you would not be able to swap places with the echo while banished in this way.
However, if you were not on your native plane when Banishment was cast on you you would not be Incapacitated. Thus you would be able to swap places and return to where you were. There are no limitations on the range of the swap, so swapping between planes should be possible in this scenario.
Hello, I have not gotten in this situation yet but as an echo knight player and new to d&d, I would like to ask this very tricky question.
If I as an echo knight am in combat and I have my echo out next to me, and right before my turn, I get banished.... can I then during my turn, switch places with my echo even though me and my echo are cross dimensions/planes.
The switching of places not bound my distance and an echo knights might happen to be based on the fleeing magic of multiverse theory, so I was wondering what the most likely resolution would be when I try to switch places cross planes.
Generally speaking, no.
A creature subject to banishment is, if they are already on their home plane, shunted to a harmless demiplane where they are incapacitated for the duration. This both prevents taking actions and automatically dismisses the echo.
In order for this to have a chance of success, two conditions must be met:
You must be banished from a non-native plane, such as the Elemental Plane of Fire, to your native plane.
The echo must survive until the fighter's turn comes up, which they would have no way of knowing until trying as they're on another plane.
I tried searching but wasn't sure what phrase I should use to find it.
So the question I pose:
Say your PC echo knight is on a moving cart that is travelling at a quick pace, they summon their echo next to them on the cart. Does the echo keep pace with your PC as the cart moves forward or does it only occupy that space when its originally manifested and then gets left behind and likely disappear at the end of the turn as they exceed the 30 ft limit.
This situation has some fun implications. If the Echo is summand on top of the cart I would say it stays in contact with the cart. If the echo moves above the cart (Which seems possible, as Echo has unbounded movement) it would begin to fall behind. But it also raises the issue, if a cart runs into a echo can it push it? if not then logically the Echo should stop the cart (the immovable rod dilemma), and if it travels with the cart the the Echo can be pushed, or rather dragged, likely in all scenarios.
I am currently working on a train heist scenario in Eberron, and how that will interact with the Echo Knight might require some thought on my part. (This thought exorcise also means I have to rethink the interactions with characters with a fly speed for similar issues).
TL;DR I don't have a good answer and now I have to spend more time thinking about a campaign set-piece
Say your PC echo knight is on a moving cart that is travelling at a quick pace, they summon their echo next to them on the cart. Does the echo keep pace with your PC as the cart moves forward or does it only occupy that space when its originally manifested and then gets left behind and likely disappear at the end of the turn as they exceed the 30 ft limit.
Great question. I don’t know if there is a RAW answer. But let’s think it through. The cart could just as easily be a ship, or train, or any moving platform.
If a Knight is standing on a ship, she moves with it because of gravity. If the Knight somehow flies or falls in the water, the ship would keep going and the Knight would no longer automatically be moved with it. I assume this would apply to any character, so nothing new here.
One option is if the DM rules the Echo is a version of the Knight from another timeline. In another timeline, the Knight would still probably move with the ship as long as she was on the deck, so one could say the Echo follows the same rules. So in this case, the Echo would probably follow the same rules as the Knight.
Alternate, if the DM rules the Echo is a translucent image, and has no mass, gravity would then probably not keep it attached to the deck. But it may also be worth noting that as our planet spins (assuming it is round), and we are all constantly in motion relative to the sun. So an Echo not affected by gravity or some relative force would be pretty impractical.
This leads me to another question. If an Echo was summoned in front of a moving ship, and the Echo occupies its space, what would happen when the ship collides with it? Reasonable speaking, I would probably rule that a colliding ship does at least one point of damage causing the Echo to disappear. Which one interestingly might imply a solution to the immovable Echo problem (shoving could cause an Echo to disappear), but back to that another time.
So that brings me to my last question, what would be the most fun and also practical? I’d probably rule that an Echo on the deck of the ship would probably stay with the ship. But a flying (or swimming) Echo would get left behind as the ship moves, just like a character.
So my Echo Knight question is if an attack is made from the Echo, and it hits and does damage to a monster, what process or roll do I make to determine what target the monster then selects for it's attack ? Is the Echo a real enough image to be perceived as a threat by the Monster ?
So my Echo Knight question is if an attack is made from the Echo, and it hits and does damage to a monster, what process or roll do I make to determine what target the monster then selects for it's attack ? Is the Echo a real enough image to be perceived as a threat by the Monster ?
Great question. I don’t know that there are any “rules” that determine what a monster will or will not attack. As described an Echo is a translucent image of the Knight. But I’ve heard of people flavoring how it appears a number of different ways. I personally would rule that it depends on the intelligence of the “monster”. An animal might not really know any better – just that some shape or image hit it, and can be hit in return. An intelligent NPC might only fall for hitting an Echo once, and realize that there isn’t much that can be done when it comes back. Some might treat the Echo the same as they would treat a Spiritual Weapon. Perhaps a learned person or arcane specialist might immediately know what the Echo really is (and isn’t), and thus ignore it. How much of a threat it is might depend on if and how hard it hits.
Anyone else have experience or thoughts on determining how monsters and NPCs should or could react to fighting an Echo?
Anyone else have experience or thoughts on determining how monsters and NPCs should or could react to fighting an Echo?
I play an Echo Knight / Phantom Rogue in our Underdark campaign. Our DM has evolved how he approaches this based on the nature and intelligence of the monster.
Beasts will largely ignore an echo unless explicitly directed -- it is a moving shadow with no smell or sound, making it all motion with no real presence.
Creatures of low intelligence will attack it if it is the closest target and will randomly select it unless a clearly more dangerous target is also in reach.
Creatures of average intelligence will attack another target even if they have to move to do so. They are less likely to perceive it as a more dangerous target unless it has already proven to be so.
Creatures of above average intelligence will evaluate whether the echo knight is a greater threat (through the echo) before choosing to attack the echo. The decision to attack the echo will be made in much the same way a PC would choose.
(new - 12/4/21) Q: Assuming the Knight has been grappled, can the Knight escape the grapple by swapping places with his Echo? A: No. It costs the Knight 15 feet of movement to swap places, and when you're grappled you have 0 feet of movement. Thus the Knight cannot teleport using Manifest Echo. (thanks @FLYINGvDUTCHMAN)
(new - 12/4/21) Q: Assuming the Knight has been grappled, can the Knight escape the grapple by swapping places with his Echo? A: No. It costs the Knight 15 feet of movement to swap places, and when you're grappled you have 0 feet of movement. Thus the Knight cannot teleport using Manifest Echo. (thanks @FLYINGvDUTCHMAN)
I am happy for this ruling to be changed based on the Freedom of Movement argument, though it may be best to change the answer to a 'Maybe' and include both the argument against and the argument for.
The Freedom of Movement spell specifically refers to escaping a grapple "The target can also spend 5 feet of Movement to automatically Escape from nonmagical restraints, such as Manacles or a creature that has it Grappled", whereas the description of the echo knight's teleport does not.
Unless Jeremy provides a ruling specific to the echo knight's teleport, it is probably best to leave this one up to the individual DM. If it were me, I would probably rule that the echo knight can only automatically escape from nonmagical restraints, such as manacles or a creature that has it Grappled (same as freedom of movement).
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Well this has been a wild ride from start to finish so far, if I could throw my two cents in on it as well, personally I think of the Echo as an inverted magical object. Inverted in the sense of magnets repelling each other on the same pole, with creatures and certain magical spells being "tuned" to affect certain poles. Looking at it in the way that creatures and natural materials all possess some inherent affinity to the "Positive" pole lets say, this Echo has a "Negative" pole. The magnet analogy doesn't work perfectly in this aspect I know, but in the realm of Dungeons and Dragons a perfect cross-over isn't always feasible. But continuing on this path regardless, say that instead of Positive poles repelling each other, opposite "magical poles" repel, which would explain how the magical, translucent gray image, of yourself has an AC, you're trying to force your weapon to hit something that has a minor repelling factor to it, that is trying to push, or reflect your weapon attack, away from itself. In that same manner certain spells being specifically focused on either "positive" or "negative" magical poles, would be either unable, or able to affect the Echo.
In regards to the Echo being affected by the "Levitate" spell, I would say yes, it would be affected, however with the Echo being able to be moved by the Knight in any direction, including along the Z axis, the Knight could move it and basically break the levitate spell. The only interesting use of this I could think of with this combo however would be that since RAW states " If your echo is ever more than 30 feet from you at the end of your turn, it is destroyed", if this is done After the end of the Knights turn, it would not be destroyed if the levitate spell moves it further than 30 feet away from the Knight. As for how to explain it, I would argue to say that "levitate" does not affect the creature or object affected by the spell itself, rather it affects the flow of the magic surrounding that creature or object. Meaning that the very air itself has a magical affinity to it, and you are pushing or pulling the surrounding magical property to manipulate the creature/object in the manner of the description of the spell itself. Fun thought, and definitely a DM call I would say considering the potential opportunities it could create.
Alternatively, following along the previous thought for the experiment of using catapult on the Echo, this one on my end gets a bit strange on definition. Previously I had stated that in my mind it (the Echo) is an "inverted magical object". Continuing this line of thought I would argue that since it is "tangible" in the sense that it cannot be manifested in an occupied space, it would have what I would consider a "magical negative mass". One directly proportional to the Knight who manifested it. In that instance you could say that the Echo "weighs" the opposite of whatever the Knight weighs, in a strange magical way, and since the catapult spell specifically states the object must be "...weighing 1 to 5 pounds...", the Echo would never satisfy these constraints. Also, I have no idea what would happen if you tried to catapult something with a theoretical "negative" weight. Yeah I get Helium and all that, but the Echo in my mind at this point pushes against even the air to hold where it is, so it could even simply stay in the air after whatever magical force is propelling said loose object stops and science takes over. Or, you could argue that the Echo isn't a "loose" object. This one is up to the individual DM, but personally I just wouldn't see it working. Would hilarious as can be I'll admit, but anyways.
As for using the Echo as a foothold or a means of transport of any variety, that same reflection (or more accurately, repulsion) would constantly try to push away from that creature. Going back to the magnet analogy, ever tried balancing two magnets on the same pole to levitate one? It *can* work, but the level of difficulty is insane. Even the most minor of fluctuations can cause one to slip away from the other, and well the analogy doesn't hold up beyond that point, but I'm pretty sure people would get the point. If an Echo were to try to hold a torch, they would push away from each other and ultimately end up dropping said torch. Same with creatures.
Long story short, it's magic, and magic is hard to explain, and in the end it's up to the DM to determine how reality and magic work in their worlds. Thoughts?
can you Manifest Echo with Twinned Spell Metamagic ?
no, because it isn't a spell, doesn't target anything, and the ability itself declares you can only have one echo at a time until the capstone.
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
Couple of questions.
If an Echo is put into a space that has an AoE spell going, let's say web or spike growth, when the knight attacks through the echo does he suffer from the AoE's effects? So, if he pops into a web spell, does he make a save to determine whether or not he's webbed? Pops into spike growth, does he take damage?
Along those same lines, since an echo can be up in the air, if the echo is put 30 feet high above, let's say, a lava field, when the knight pops through does he start to fall immediately?
Thank you so much for this list. The Echo Knight has piqued my interest since I first heard about it but raised many questions that this addressed.
The Echo Knight does not actually teleport themselves to the Echo's location to make the attack. They remain in their own space, and the attack magically originates from the echo's space. So the Knight will not be 'entering' a space with Web or need to worry about falling.
Hmm, that's confusing then. The first question under attacks in this FAQ states, "No, the Echo never attacks, the Knight simply attacks from the Echo’s position." Is there something somewhere that clarifies this? Thanks for the reply!
The answer is right there in the text of the feature.
The attack can originate from either space, but the relative space of the fighter doesn't change.
Hello, I have not gotten in this situation yet but as an echo knight player and new to d&d, I would like to ask this very tricky question.
If I as an echo knight am in combat and I have my echo out next to me, and right before my turn, I get banished.... can I then during my turn, switch places with my echo even though me and my echo are cross dimensions/planes.
The switching of places not bound my distance and an echo knights might happen to be based on the fleeing magic of multiverse theory, so I was wondering what the most likely resolution would be when I try to switch places cross planes.
The Banishment spell states that any creature that is banished while on its native plane is also Incapacitated and can take no actions or reactions. I believe "no actions" means both standard and bonus actions, so you would not be able to swap places with the echo while banished in this way.
However, if you were not on your native plane when Banishment was cast on you you would not be Incapacitated. Thus you would be able to swap places and return to where you were. There are no limitations on the range of the swap, so swapping between planes should be possible in this scenario.
Generally speaking, no.
A creature subject to banishment is, if they are already on their home plane, shunted to a harmless demiplane where they are incapacitated for the duration. This both prevents taking actions and automatically dismisses the echo.
In order for this to have a chance of success, two conditions must be met:
I tried searching but wasn't sure what phrase I should use to find it.
So the question I pose:
Say your PC echo knight is on a moving cart that is travelling at a quick pace, they summon their echo next to them on the cart. Does the echo keep pace with your PC as the cart moves forward or does it only occupy that space when its originally manifested and then gets left behind and likely disappear at the end of the turn as they exceed the 30 ft limit.
it stays on the cart next to you, as long as it was summoned onto the cart and not floating near it
This situation has some fun implications. If the Echo is summand on top of the cart I would say it stays in contact with the cart. If the echo moves above the cart (Which seems possible, as Echo has unbounded movement) it would begin to fall behind. But it also raises the issue, if a cart runs into a echo can it push it? if not then logically the Echo should stop the cart (the immovable rod dilemma), and if it travels with the cart the the Echo can be pushed, or rather dragged, likely in all scenarios.
I am currently working on a train heist scenario in Eberron, and how that will interact with the Echo Knight might require some thought on my part. (This thought exorcise also means I have to rethink the interactions with characters with a fly speed for similar issues).
TL;DR
I don't have a good answer and now I have to spend more time thinking about a campaign set-piece
Great question. I don’t know if there is a RAW answer. But let’s think it through. The cart could just as easily be a ship, or train, or any moving platform.
If a Knight is standing on a ship, she moves with it because of gravity. If the Knight somehow flies or falls in the water, the ship would keep going and the Knight would no longer automatically be moved with it. I assume this would apply to any character, so nothing new here.
One option is if the DM rules the Echo is a version of the Knight from another timeline. In another timeline, the Knight would still probably move with the ship as long as she was on the deck, so one could say the Echo follows the same rules. So in this case, the Echo would probably follow the same rules as the Knight.
Alternate, if the DM rules the Echo is a translucent image, and has no mass, gravity would then probably not keep it attached to the deck. But it may also be worth noting that as our planet spins (assuming it is round), and we are all constantly in motion relative to the sun. So an Echo not affected by gravity or some relative force would be pretty impractical.
This leads me to another question. If an Echo was summoned in front of a moving ship, and the Echo occupies its space, what would happen when the ship collides with it? Reasonable speaking, I would probably rule that a colliding ship does at least one point of damage causing the Echo to disappear. Which one interestingly might imply a solution to the immovable Echo problem (shoving could cause an Echo to disappear), but back to that another time.
So that brings me to my last question, what would be the most fun and also practical? I’d probably rule that an Echo on the deck of the ship would probably stay with the ship. But a flying (or swimming) Echo would get left behind as the ship moves, just like a character.
Thought, counter arguments?
edit: how might Spiritual Weapon work on a ship?
So my Echo Knight question is if an attack is made from the Echo, and it hits and does damage to a monster, what process or roll do I make to determine what target the monster then selects for it's attack ? Is the Echo a real enough image to be perceived as a threat by the Monster ?
Great question. I don’t know that there are any “rules” that determine what a monster will or will not attack. As described an Echo is a translucent image of the Knight. But I’ve heard of people flavoring how it appears a number of different ways. I personally would rule that it depends on the intelligence of the “monster”. An animal might not really know any better – just that some shape or image hit it, and can be hit in return. An intelligent NPC might only fall for hitting an Echo once, and realize that there isn’t much that can be done when it comes back. Some might treat the Echo the same as they would treat a Spiritual Weapon. Perhaps a learned person or arcane specialist might immediately know what the Echo really is (and isn’t), and thus ignore it. How much of a threat it is might depend on if and how hard it hits.
Anyone else have experience or thoughts on determining how monsters and NPCs should or could react to fighting an Echo?
I play an Echo Knight / Phantom Rogue in our Underdark campaign. Our DM has evolved how he approaches this based on the nature and intelligence of the monster.
I'm not sure this is right, given Jeremy Crawford's tweet about Freedom of Movement.
I am happy for this ruling to be changed based on the Freedom of Movement argument, though it may be best to change the answer to a 'Maybe' and include both the argument against and the argument for.
The Freedom of Movement spell specifically refers to escaping a grapple "The target can also spend 5 feet of Movement to automatically Escape from nonmagical restraints, such as Manacles or a creature that has it Grappled", whereas the description of the echo knight's teleport does not.
Unless Jeremy provides a ruling specific to the echo knight's teleport, it is probably best to leave this one up to the individual DM. If it were me, I would probably rule that the echo knight can only automatically escape from nonmagical restraints, such as manacles or a creature that has it Grappled (same as freedom of movement).