: If a Knight would have disadvantage on an attack, would the attack from the Echo also have disadvantage?
A: Yes, since the Echo is not really attacking. It is the Knight that is attacking, the attack only appears to come from the Echo’s position
This is dependant on what causes the disadvantage. For example, if the target is prone and the echo is next to it and the fighter is more than 5 feet away, then the fighter has disadvantage attacking from his location but advantage attacking from the echos location.
"When you make a melee attack against a creature, you don't provoke opportunity attacks from that creature for the rest of the turn, whether you hit or not"
So attacking from the echo position.... would that allow the echo to move away after an attack without an AoO???
"When you make a melee attack against a creature, you don't provoke opportunity attacks from that creature for the rest of the turn, whether you hit or not"
So attacking from the echo position.... would that allow the echo to move away after an attack without an AoO???
Well good news. Since Echo's are considered object and are not creatures (and they also don't have their own movement), they do not provoke attacks of opportunity when they move.
Q: Does an Echo provoke an opportunity attack when it moves? A: No, because opportunity attacks must target a creature, and an Echo is not considered a creature.
In theory, if you (the Knight) have the Mobile feat and make a melee attack with your Echo, you as the Knight would not suffer any opportunity attacks from your target either. Though you are probably far away and it won't make a difference.
thanks for the quick reply... so by this logic how would the Brace battle maneuver from Tasha's work?
When a creature you can see moves into the reach you have with the melee weapon you’re wielding, you can use your reaction to expend one superiority die and make one attack against the creature, using that weapon. If the attack hits, add the superiority die to the weapon’s damage roll.
thanks for the quick reply... so by this logic how would the Brace battle maneuver from Tasha's work?
When a creature you can see moves into the reach you have with the melee weapon you’re wielding, you can use your reaction to expend one superiority die and make one attack against the creature, using that weapon. If the attack hits, add the superiority die to the weapon’s damage roll.
I think you might be muddling two different concepts. Reach, in this instance, doesn't matter. Reach, simply put, is how far away a creature can make an attack from the space its attacking from. The real question is can anything trigger an attack, as a reaction, from the echo's space that isn't an Opportunity Attack?
No.
The feature Manifest Echo is rather specific in the ways it can be utilized. A new feat or choice of fighting style doesn't change that.
Let’s be honest, the Echo is amazing, but the only debate to try to make it even more amazing.
Q: Can an Echo be used to perform a grapple or shove attack? A: Maybe, there is still some debate over if and how grappling and shoving might work. Per the PHB, grapple and shove are "special melee attacks" included in the Attack action. Manifest Echo states, "When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo’s space." Unfortunately, the rules for when a creature tries to break free of a grapple, how it is maintained, and how movement while would work while grappled with the echo are not clear. (thanks @LeviRocks)
This should be a “Yes, but No”, as the echo can trigger the “Attack Action” but the trigger is to roll an “ability check” but never has the Echo been able to interact with anything outside of an actual ‘attack’ (i.e. it’s not ‘mage hand’).
Q: Can an Echo move through other objects (such as a wall) or other creatures (allies or enemies)? A: Maybe. There is an ongoing debate on if Echo's are tangible/solid or if they are merely images. On one hand, an Echo is an object, which means that it is physical, and can't pass through creatures or other objects. By the Manifest Echo rules, it occupies a space, which means it is solid, even if it can float. Alternatively, it description states that an "...echo is a magical, translucent, gray image..." that floats.
First: The first description explains the limitations (which was from the second Sage response). The second description NEVER contradicts the first, just different details. Sage clearly states “hologram with substance” which clearly links to the same “image” … It is moot, but there ARE Illusion spells that are physical images: “Creation” and “Mirage Arcane”
Second: Since the agreement is that “an Echo occupies a square. And thus it prevents enemies from passing through its space,”… that same Echo is only an object and NOT an ally, your allies cannot move past it either.
(Updated - 4/9/21)Q: Can allies pass through an Echo’s space? A: Maybe. There is an ongoing debate on if Echo's are tangible/solid or if they are merely images. An Echo occupies a space, and since it is an object, isn't considered an ally or creature. This would be like trying to run through a wall. (thanks @LeviRocks)
Same as above.
Q: Can an Echo or Echo Avatar be used to set off traps? A: Maybe. An Echo floats and has no mass, even though it takes up a physical space. However it has substance, which is why it can be damaged. While it may not be affected by gravity, it may be able to trigger pressure plates and tripwires, but if and only if you specify that the Echo is going to press it down against the ground or moving it across a space that you think it would be in. Additionally magical traps that can only be triggered by creatures would be unaffected since an Echo is considered an object.
It is clearly noted that an Echo can only interact by “attacking” or “blocking passage.” This is a slippery slope as if you provide an Echo the ability to “interact” with other objects such as “press down on a pressure plate” then next logical request would be: can it carry something and fly across the bridge, can it act as a “mage hand” and pick locks remotely, etc.
The following can be done by rules, but up to the DM:
See a locked down? Look through keyhole, summon your Echo into the room in a “space you see” and then swap places
Want to leave space to move past for friends? Float your Echo 5 feet off the ground:
You can still trigger reactions
You allow others to move past (both allies and enemies)
While an echo may not be able to set off traps by walking on them, it should be able to set traps off by you attacking attacking the trap with an unarmed strike through your echo (say a kick).
While an echo may not be able to set off traps by walking on them, it should be able to set traps off by you attacking attacking the trap with an unarmed strike through your echo (say a kick).
This is more or less what I was going to say. The echo, by itself, doesn't do anything. The fighter acts through the echo as if they were in the echo's space. The echo might not have mass, but the fighter can still apply pressure via the echo. Just as they can grapple and shove from the echo's space.
Great work! I just want to add some edge case corrections I found:
General
11. There is some kind of workaround. Dropping the avatar state ("at any time", "requires no action") after your turn ended allows for a full round of normal Echo action, including AoO, normal attacks, Echo features and teleportation since the Echo only vanishes at the end of your turn (if it is further than 30 ft. away). It would even allow endless avatar state since you can en the state after your turn and use your next action to start the timer again.
12. In the case of AoO the player attacks "as if you were in the echo's space". This transfers the knight into the Echo for everything regarding the attack, including sight and disadvantage from fighting underwater without a swimming speed. The wording of AoO is different from the wording regarding the attack action.
AoO
2. Mild correction: Bugbears reach only works on their turn and is therefore not active on most AoO.
Movement
13. Yes you can, see general 11. End for free, bonus action teleport, if you want to start avatar again use your action for that.
Defense
4. For the last sentence: Again, AoO are worded different.
Misc
4. Or until it is further than 30 feet away from the knight at the end of its turn.
OK, I think this is a new question. Ravenite Dragonborn Echo Knight
The echo is next to an enemy. The knight is, let's say, 20 feet away.
The enemy hits the knight with a projectile attack.
Can I take a a vengeful assault attack against said creature with a melee attack? It seems like that should be the case
Vengeful Assault. When you take damage from a creature in range of a weapon you are wielding, you can use your reaction to make an attack with the weapon against that creature. Once you use this trait, you can't do so again until you finish a short or long rest.
Under manifest echo:
When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo's space. You make this choice for each attack.
I am guessing the "on your turn" part means I can only make attacks from that location literally on my turn, but let me know if this is to be interpreted differently. thanks!
Can I take a a vengeful assault attack against said creature with a melee attack?
You cannot, because the Vengeful Assault is a Reactionaction not an Attackaction.
He can't but for another reason. It would work as a reaction, except the only time an echo can make a reaction attack is when the creature moves away from the echos threatened range. He's trying to mix reactions and actions, but even with the intended use of it being a reaction, the echo cannot do it.
Your echo can only take reactions to attack a creature that moves away from them. Because of that, you cannot use Vengeful Assault through the echo.
- When a creature you can see within 5 ft. of your echo moves at least 5 ft. away from it, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack as if you were in the echo's space.
There are two arguably conflicting rules in play. The first is how the archetype's Manifest Echo feature works and its limitations. The second is the Vengeful Assault trait. I think what it ultimately comes down to is what counts as the "reach of a weapon you're wielding." Since you can attack from the echo's space, it's arguable that spaces around it may also count as your within your character's reach. It's an edge case, and I'd be fine saying it comes down to the DM's interpretation.
Q: For a Knight and an Echo to Teleport (swap places), does the Knight need to be able to see the Echo (Line of Sight)?
You do not need to be able to see your echo for this.
"As a bonus action, you can teleport, magically swapping places with your echo at a cost of 15 feet of your movement, regardless of the distance between the two of you."
Can I take a a vengeful assault attack against said creature with a melee attack?
You cannot, because the Vengeful Assault is a Reactionaction not an Attackaction.
He can't but for another reason. It would work as a reaction, except the only time an echo can make a reaction attack is when the creature moves away from the echos threatened range. He's trying to mix reactions and actions, but even with the intended use of it being a reaction, the echo cannot do it.
the echo doesn't take any actions or reactions... it's simply there to channel attacks an EK makes through it with their action economy
If your echo is ever more than 30 feet from you at the end of your turn, it is destroyed.
As a bonus action, you can teleport, magically swapping places with your echo at a cost of 15 feet of your movement, regardless of the distance between the two of you.
and
Echo Avatar
Starting at 7th level, you can temporarily transfer your consciousness to your echo. As an action, you can see through your echo's eyes and hear through its ears. During this time, you are deafened and blinded. You can sustain this effect for up to 10 minutes, and you can end it at any time (requires no action). While your echo is being used in this way, it can be up to 1,000 feet away from you without being destroyed.
The echo avatar requires no action to end it, regardless of the distance between the two of you can teleport, magically swapping places with your echo
because i know i can get my echo 60feet away from me to teleport and if it had said that i will need a bonus action to end my echo avatar this will have prevent me from doing so but it has no requirements no action of any kind, so i still gut my bonus action to use, before it gets destroyed
am going by the wording
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I don't think that's necessary. A grappled creature's Speed is still zero, which means they're able to spend speed they don't have.
This is dependant on what causes the disadvantage. For example, if the target is prone and the echo is next to it and the fighter is more than 5 feet away, then the fighter has disadvantage attacking from his location but advantage attacking from the echos location.
New question for the FAQ:
Mobile feat's third feature is this:
So attacking from the echo position.... would that allow the echo to move away after an attack without an AoO???
Well good news. Since Echo's are considered object and are not creatures (and they also don't have their own movement), they do not provoke attacks of opportunity when they move.
In theory, if you (the Knight) have the Mobile feat and make a melee attack with your Echo, you as the Knight would not suffer any opportunity attacks from your target either. Though you are probably far away and it won't make a difference.
thanks for the quick reply... so by this logic how would the Brace battle maneuver from Tasha's work?
I think you might be muddling two different concepts. Reach, in this instance, doesn't matter. Reach, simply put, is how far away a creature can make an attack from the space its attacking from. The real question is can anything trigger an attack, as a reaction, from the echo's space that isn't an Opportunity Attack?
No.
The feature Manifest Echo is rather specific in the ways it can be utilized. A new feat or choice of fighting style doesn't change that.
Let’s be honest, the Echo is amazing, but the only debate to try to make it even more amazing.
Q: Can an Echo be used to perform a grapple or shove attack?
A: Maybe, there is still some debate over if and how grappling and shoving might work. Per the PHB, grapple and shove are "special melee attacks" included in the Attack action. Manifest Echo states, "When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo’s space." Unfortunately, the rules for when a creature tries to break free of a grapple, how it is maintained, and how movement while would work while grappled with the echo are not clear. (thanks @LeviRocks)
This should be a “Yes, but No”, as the echo can trigger the “Attack Action” but the trigger is to roll an “ability check” but never has the Echo been able to interact with anything outside of an actual ‘attack’ (i.e. it’s not ‘mage hand’).
https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/596096614042771456
Q: Can an Echo move through other objects (such as a wall) or other creatures (allies or enemies)?
A: Maybe. There is an ongoing debate on if Echo's are tangible/solid or if they are merely images.
On one hand, an Echo is an object, which means that it is physical, and can't pass through creatures or other objects. By the Manifest Echo rules, it occupies a space, which means it is solid, even if it can float. Alternatively, it description states that an "...echo is a magical, translucent, gray image..." that floats.
First: The first description explains the limitations (which was from the second Sage response). The second description NEVER contradicts the first, just different details. Sage clearly states “hologram with substance” which clearly links to the same “image” … It is moot, but there ARE Illusion spells that are physical images: “Creation” and “Mirage Arcane”
https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/1240669629661380609
Second: Since the agreement is that “an Echo occupies a square. And thus it prevents enemies from passing through its space,”… that same Echo is only an object and NOT an ally, your allies cannot move past it either.
(Updated - 4/9/21) Q: Can allies pass through an Echo’s space?
A: Maybe. There is an ongoing debate on if Echo's are tangible/solid or if they are merely images.
An Echo occupies a space, and since it is an object, isn't considered an ally or creature. This would be like trying to run through a wall. (thanks @LeviRocks)
Same as above.
Q: Can an Echo or Echo Avatar be used to set off traps?
A: Maybe.
An Echo floats and has no mass, even though it takes up a physical space. However it has substance, which is why it can be damaged. While it may not be affected by gravity, it may be able to trigger pressure plates and tripwires, but if and only if you specify that the Echo is going to press it down against the ground or moving it across a space that you think it would be in. Additionally magical traps that can only be triggered by creatures would be unaffected since an Echo is considered an object.
It is clearly noted that an Echo can only interact by “attacking” or “blocking passage.” This is a slippery slope as if you provide an Echo the ability to “interact” with other objects such as “press down on a pressure plate” then next logical request would be: can it carry something and fly across the bridge, can it act as a “mage hand” and pick locks remotely, etc.
The following can be done by rules, but up to the DM:
While an echo may not be able to set off traps by walking on them, it should be able to set traps off by you attacking attacking the trap with an unarmed strike through your echo (say a kick).
This is more or less what I was going to say. The echo, by itself, doesn't do anything. The fighter acts through the echo as if they were in the echo's space. The echo might not have mass, but the fighter can still apply pressure via the echo. Just as they can grapple and shove from the echo's space.
Great work! I just want to add some edge case corrections I found:
General
11. There is some kind of workaround. Dropping the avatar state ("at any time", "requires no action") after your turn ended allows for a full round of normal Echo action, including AoO, normal attacks, Echo features and teleportation since the Echo only vanishes at the end of your turn (if it is further than 30 ft. away). It would even allow endless avatar state since you can en the state after your turn and use your next action to start the timer again.
12. In the case of AoO the player attacks "as if you were in the echo's space". This transfers the knight into the Echo for everything regarding the attack, including sight and disadvantage from fighting underwater without a swimming speed. The wording of AoO is different from the wording regarding the attack action.
AoO
2. Mild correction: Bugbears reach only works on their turn and is therefore not active on most AoO.
Movement
13. Yes you can, see general 11. End for free, bonus action teleport, if you want to start avatar again use your action for that.
Defense
4. For the last sentence: Again, AoO are worded different.
Misc
4. Or until it is further than 30 feet away from the knight at the end of its turn.
OK, I think this is a new question. Ravenite Dragonborn Echo Knight
The echo is next to an enemy. The knight is, let's say, 20 feet away.
The enemy hits the knight with a projectile attack.
Can I take a a vengeful assault attack against said creature with a melee attack? It seems like that should be the case
Vengeful Assault. When you take damage from a creature in range of a weapon you are wielding, you can use your reaction to make an attack with the weapon against that creature. Once you use this trait, you can't do so again until you finish a short or long rest.
Under manifest echo:
I am guessing the "on your turn" part means I can only make attacks from that location literally on my turn, but let me know if this is to be interpreted differently. thanks!
Can I take a a vengeful assault attack against said creature with a melee attack?
You cannot, because the Vengeful Assault is a Reaction action not an Attack action.
He can't but for another reason. It would work as a reaction, except the only time an echo can make a reaction attack is when the creature moves away from the echos threatened range. He's trying to mix reactions and actions, but even with the intended use of it being a reaction, the echo cannot do it.
Your echo can only take reactions to attack a creature that moves away from them. Because of that, you cannot use Vengeful Assault through the echo.
- When a creature you can see within 5 ft. of your echo moves at least 5 ft. away from it, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack as if you were in the echo's space.
There are two arguably conflicting rules in play. The first is how the archetype's Manifest Echo feature works and its limitations. The second is the Vengeful Assault trait. I think what it ultimately comes down to is what counts as the "reach of a weapon you're wielding." Since you can attack from the echo's space, it's arguable that spaces around it may also count as your within your character's reach. It's an edge case, and I'd be fine saying it comes down to the DM's interpretation.
TL;DR
It's a solid "maybe" from me.
Q: For a Knight and an Echo to Teleport (swap places), does the Knight need to be able to see the Echo (Line of Sight)?
You do not need to be able to see your echo for this.
"As a bonus action, you can teleport, magically swapping places with your echo at a cost of 15 feet of your movement, regardless of the distance between the two of you."
No mention of line of sight, vision, etc.
the echo doesn't take any actions or reactions... it's simply there to channel attacks an EK makes through it with their action economy
Awesome.... Thank You..... this FAQ is a great resource for players.... a wealth of knowledge...
If your echo is ever more than 30 feet from you at the end of your turn, it is destroyed.
and
Echo Avatar
Starting at 7th level, you can temporarily transfer your consciousness to your echo. As an action, you can see through your echo's eyes and hear through its ears. During this time, you are deafened and blinded. You can sustain this effect for up to 10 minutes, and you can end it at any time (requires no action). While your echo is being used in this way, it can be up to 1,000 feet away from you without being destroyed.
The echo avatar requires no action to end it, regardless of the distance between the two of you can teleport, magically swapping places with your echo
because i know i can get my echo 60feet away from me to teleport and if it had said that i will need a bonus action to end my echo avatar this will have prevent me from doing so but it has no requirements no action of any kind, so i still gut my bonus action to use, before it gets destroyed
am going by the wording