Shadow Martyr has no range limitation (you just need to see the creature being attacked). Additionally, it doesn't specify that the Echo subsequently returns to it's previous location. Since Shadow Martyr is most likely happening on someone else's turn, the distance involved would not cause your Echo to be destroyed until the end of your next turn.
With this in mind, could you trigger Shadow Martyr 150 feet away, and then on your turn, use a bonus action to teleport to that location? Of course this is predicated on your Echo surviving the attack it is intercepting (such as in the case where it's AC beats the attack, or the attack causes Poison or Psychic damage only).
Given the Echo Avatar's range limit of 1000 feet, is there anything preventing the Echo Knight from using a bonus action to teleport to their Echo at that distance?
Jeremy Crawford has specified that the intent is not to be able to use additional echo abilities while using Echo Avatar, but there are two caveats to keep in mind: 1) no errata, sage advice compendium, or reprinting has corrected this to date, and 2) given that the destruction of the Echo due to being more than 30 feet away happens at the end of the Echo Knight's turn... so you could potentially end Echo Avatar first then immediately teleport.
For that matter, couldn't the same logic be applied to make attacks at that distance (within the same turn)?
[1] Given the Echo Avatar's range limit of 1000 feet, is there anything preventing the Echo Knight from using a bonus action to teleport to their Echo at that distance?
[2] For that matter, couldn't the same logic be applied to make attacks at that distance (within the same turn)?
[1] As DM I would rule that you can indeed teleport to your Echo's location (swap places). Action economy allows it, and the swap feature bonus action explicitly states that it works regardless of distance.
[2] This might have limited utility, but would work.
If you end the see-through-the-Echo and can see the target, it is a normal attack (originating from the Echo's space).
If you end the see-through-the-Echo and cannot see the target, you are attacking a target you cannot see (disadvantage).
If you keep the see-through-the-Echo, you are attacking while you are blind (disadvantage).
Super-interesting caveats you added to potential attack scenarios; thank you Seeker95!
It occurs to me that some mitigation could be applied, if rather than taking the more common (for the subclass) Great Weapon Fighting Style, you took Blind Fighting.
Shadow Martyr has no range limitation (you just need to see the creature being attacked). Additionally, it doesn't specify that the Echo subsequently returns to it's previous location. Since Shadow Martyr is most likely happening on someone else's turn, the distance involved would not cause your Echo to be destroyed until the end of your next turn.
With this in mind, could you trigger Shadow Martyr 150 feet away, and then on your turn, use a bonus action to teleport to that location? Of course this is predicated on your Echo surviving the attack it is intercepting (such as in the case where it's AC beats the attack, or the attack causes Poison or Psychic damage only).
If the echo is not destroyed by the attack that it blocks, then you can teleport swap with it
Given that the Echo is an object and many (most) spells can't target it, what happens when you use Shadow Martyr to intercept a spell attack?
"You can make your echo throw itself in front of an attack directed at another creature that you can see. Before the attack roll is made, you can use your reaction to teleport the echo to an unoccupied space within 5 feet of the targeted creature. The attack roll that triggered the reaction is instead made against your echo."
So for example, if the wizard is targeted with an Eldritch Blast, and the Echo Knight uses Shadow Martyr to intercept, does the Eldritch Blast still happen, instead against the AC of the Echo? Or does the spell fizzle, because the Echo isn't a valid target?
If the spell is of a type that doesn't destroy the echo, then the spell would go off, but hit the echo harmlessly. how that works in your game is up to the DM, does it fizzle, or does it hit the echo and bounce off? Either way the echo would still exist, and the spell slot would have been spent
If the Knight is a Changeling, does their shape changing ability extend to their Echos? Imaging you stand there, you change shape, and at the same time an echo in the shape that you just left splits from you.
If the Knight is a Changeling, does their shape changing ability extend to their Echos? Imaging you stand there, you change shape, and at the same time an echo in the shape that you just left splits from you.
Your Echo doesn't have any specific shape. It can look however you want, however it will always be recognizable as just an echo.
Manifest Echo
At 3rd level, you can use a bonus action to magically manifest an echo of yourself in an unoccupied space you can see within 15 feet of you. This echo is a magical, translucent, gray image of you that lasts until it is destroyed, until you dismiss it as a bonus action, until you manifest another echo, or until you're incapacitated.
This is a pretty detailed description of an appearance and if you're following this text to the letter, there's not much room for getting creative. It's an image of your character. It's up to your DM if this image reflects your true appearance or your current appearance if you have a shapechange or similar ability. I think it's probably fine to reflavor the description of the echo from the book, but I think it does need to remain in a consistent appearance to preserve the intended balance. For example, my echo knight's echo is a spooky flaming skeleton with devil horns (long story, but it fits the character's lore perfectly) but it has that appearance at all times. In any case, I think the "split" trick you mentioned is stretching the rules out of balance. This is forcing more usefulness into the ability that A) isn't written into the rule, and B) isn't in line with the intended gameplay.
My theory is that once it splits off from you, it takes on your features at that moment, from then on, any modifications to appearance would have to be done to the echo directly, it being able to move and having the same equipment as you being a sign of this. Body position is a form of change. The whole thing is a temporary translucent image of you, so the equipment functions the same but is also not permanent, it will be destroyed along with the echo.
Sorry if this has been asked before, but can you split up your movement before and after using the Echo's movement?
Example, could my character move 20 ft forward, then Manifest Echo 15ft in front of me, have it walk 25ft forward (so its now 40ft away) attack, and then have my main character move 10ft further up (so its now within 30ft of Echo)? Or, would my main character have to use all of its movement either first or last vs splitting it up in between the Echo's movement?
Not sure if this has been addressed or if its typically a DM call how they want to allow split movement/actions between the character and the Echo.
A question that I have that i didn't see an answer on the FAQ.
1. Could you potentially use the echo to teleport from a different plane back to your own? This is assuming of course you already had your echo active, and that you used your bonus action before the end of your next turn?
and another question that the FAQ already answers, but that I want some clarification on.
2. The spell "freedom of movement" allows a creature to "spend" 5ft of movement in order to escape from a grapple (that sets that creature speed to 0ft), wouldn't this precedent also allow the knight to escape from a grapple by using a bonus action to teleport away and still spend 15ft even though just like with freedom of movement, your speed is 0? (My guess is that Freedom of movement is a special case, and that the knight can't escape from a grapple using this feature, right?)
Sure, you can move 20', use your BA to Manifest Echo 15' away from you and move it 25' since on your turn, you can mentally command the echo to move up to 30 feet in any direction (no action required), use your Action to make attack(s) from your echo's position and then move your last 10' to end your turn within 30' of your echo.
If the Knight is a Changeling, does their shape changing ability extend to their Echos? Imaging you stand there, you change shape, and at the same time an echo in the shape that you just left splits from you.
Your Echo doesn't have any specific shape. It can look however you want, however it will always be recognizable as just an echo.
Manifest Echo
At 3rd level, you can use a bonus action to magically manifest an echo of yourself in an unoccupied space you can see within 15 feet of you. This echo is a magical, translucent, gray image of you that lasts until it is destroyed, until you dismiss it as a bonus action, until you manifest another echo, or until you're incapacitated.
This is a pretty detailed description of an appearance and if you're following this text to the letter, there's not much room for getting creative. It's an image of your character. It's up to your DM if this image reflects your true appearance or your current appearance if you have a shapechange or similar ability. I think it's probably fine to reflavor the description of the echo from the book, but I think it does need to remain in a consistent appearance to preserve the intended balance. For example, my echo knight's echo is a spooky flaming skeleton with devil horns (long story, but it fits the character's lore perfectly) but it has that appearance at all times. In any case, I think the "split" trick you mentioned is stretching the rules out of balance. This is forcing more usefulness into the ability that A) isn't written into the rule, and B) isn't in line with the intended gameplay.
"of yourself" and "of you" isn't very detailed at all though. Even before considering shapechanging there's the question of whether it updates in real time or not. Do clothes change? Is it wearing clothes at all? Does it get wounded when you do? If you cut your hair does it suddenly have short hair as well? Now add magical disguises and shapechanging to the mix and there really isn't any "of yourself" anymore.
However if you really want to go full RAW purely based on that wording then it'll look like you do when you create it and then you can change your looks however you want without the echo changing until you manifest a new one. So as a changeling you can transform into someone else, manifest the echo, and then change your appearance again without a problem. Nothing DM dependent there as it clearly talks about the moment you manifest the echo and states explicitly for how long it lasts.
As for balance issues, I have yet to see how an Echo looking differently is going to affect any kind of game balance. As long as you make clear that it's easily identifiable as an echo and not some kind of actual person or monster or whatever the amount of shenanigans you can do with it is really limited, even if you keep changing its appearance.
It's as detailed as it needs to be for 5e, which the standard is macro trumps micro, meaning that the general rule supercedes the specific one if no clear interaction is provided. In this case, the general rule is the Manifest Echo text and the specific rule you're trying to apply to it is the changeling feature. There is no clear interaction posed for these two rules so, if you are playing by RAW, you have to error on the side of the general rule, which doesn't allow for interaction with shapechange abilities. So, like MA states, your echo looks like you, not your disguise. As far as any other kind of disguise or the like, Manifest Echo also makes no distinction there, so by RAW, the same would apply. You look like you, not your disguise. Of course, DMs can interpret and run this feature however they like but I believe that is the RAW interpretation.
I do agree with your take on the appearance not hanging a big effect on balance anyway since the rules for MA states that it is always recognizable as an echo.
Hello, first post here, I want to clear up some things from the first post that I think are worth mentioning in the guide because many search for Echo Knight information and find this guide, yet it has some important omissions that cause misunderstandings on the table.
Let's begin with these two:
Q: Can an Echo be grappled? A: No, an Echo can't be grappled by RAW. You cannot grapple objects. Grappling specifies that it must target a creature. Since Echos are objects, you cannot technically grapple one. It is unclear is this is RAI.
Q: Can an Echo be shoved or knocked prone?
A: No to both by RAW, because prone is a condition that Echos are immune to, and Shove attacks only apply to creatures. Shoving states, "Using the Attack action, you can make a special melee Attack to shove a creature, either to knock it prone or push it away from you." Since the echo isn't a creature, it can't be targeted with a shove.
While the answer is correct, it's misleading. The Echo cannot be grappled, shoved or knocked prone by RAW because it's an object, not a creature, but the Echo (by RAW) can be grabbed, dragged and lifted, since it's an object and not a creature. This is a misconception that I see a LOT, even on guides about the Echo Knight, on how they can put the Echo on a doorway and the only way enemies can bypass the Echo is by killing it (wasting an attack) This isn't true at all.
Push, Drag, or Lift. You can push, drag, or lift a weight in pounds up to twice your carrying capacity (or 30 times your Strength score). While pushing or dragging weight in excess of your carrying capacity, your speed drops to 5 feet.
The Echo is an object, it doesn't state anywhere in its description that it is immune to be pushed, dragged or lifted by anyone. The Echo is NOT immune to being manipulated just because "it's an object". Yes, I get it a lot "the Echo is an object so it's immune to XYZ!" argument (like grapple), while similar actions can be performed on objects, and this guide is also to blame for that, as the first search result that comes up. The Echo cannot be grappled, but it can be grabbed. The Echo cannot be shoved, but it can be lifted and dragged.
You normally interact with an object while doing something else, such as when you draw a sword as part of an attack. When an object requires your action for its use, you take the Use an Object action. This action is also useful when you want to interact with more than one object on your turn.
In other words, an Ogre can run up to the Echo, lift and toss it aside (as PART of the move, no action or attack required), then continue moving and attack the Echo Knight behind the Echo. This is RAW.
And a few questions regarding the Echo:
Where does it state that it is immune to gravity? And where does it state that it can hover in the air? Jeremy Crowford said "The echo can hang out wherever you move it." but that's not RAW.
Regarding Echo Avatar: The wording states that you can see and hear through the Echo's eyes and ears, but then it states that you are Blind and Deaf. This (by RAW) would mean an Echo Knight is blind and deaf while looking and hearing through the Echo's eyes and ears. I get what they were going with and what the intent is, but contrast the wording of the Echo Avatar with Find Familiar
Echo Avatar:
As an action, you can see through your echo's eyes and hear through its ears. During this time, you are deafened and blinded.
Additionally, as an action, you can see through your familiar’s eyes and hear what it hears until the start of your next turn, gaining the benefits of any special senses that the familiar has. During this time, you are deaf and blind with regard to your own senses.
Emphasis mine. Echo Avatar doesn't state that you are blind and deaf in regards to your own senses, just that you are blind. Essentially, going by RAW: "You can see through your echo's eyes but you are blind". This means although you can see and hear through your Echo... you are blind and deaf.
The echo is a translucent gray image. Good luck grabbing and dragging an image.
Intent is clear. You don't need to come in here and play rules lawyer. Especially when how someone else interprets the feature doesn't need to match your table. It doesn't affect you in the slightest.
The point of the FAQ isn't to lay down the law. Nobody here can actually do that, just as nobody can actually gatekeep. The point is to inform people so they can make informed decisions when rulings are one inevitably made at the table.
A translucent gray image that can block your path and fill its space. If it can block your body from moving through it, how can you not grab and drag it?
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Shadow Martyr has no range limitation (you just need to see the creature being attacked). Additionally, it doesn't specify that the Echo subsequently returns to it's previous location. Since Shadow Martyr is most likely happening on someone else's turn, the distance involved would not cause your Echo to be destroyed until the end of your next turn.
With this in mind, could you trigger Shadow Martyr 150 feet away, and then on your turn, use a bonus action to teleport to that location? Of course this is predicated on your Echo surviving the attack it is intercepting (such as in the case where it's AC beats the attack, or the attack causes Poison or Psychic damage only).
Given the Echo Avatar's range limit of 1000 feet, is there anything preventing the Echo Knight from using a bonus action to teleport to their Echo at that distance?
Jeremy Crawford has specified that the intent is not to be able to use additional echo abilities while using Echo Avatar, but there are two caveats to keep in mind: 1) no errata, sage advice compendium, or reprinting has corrected this to date, and 2) given that the destruction of the Echo due to being more than 30 feet away happens at the end of the Echo Knight's turn... so you could potentially end Echo Avatar first then immediately teleport.
For that matter, couldn't the same logic be applied to make attacks at that distance (within the same turn)?
[1] As DM I would rule that you can indeed teleport to your Echo's location (swap places). Action economy allows it, and the swap feature bonus action explicitly states that it works regardless of distance.
[2] This might have limited utility, but would work.
Super-interesting caveats you added to potential attack scenarios; thank you Seeker95!
It occurs to me that some mitigation could be applied, if rather than taking the more common (for the subclass) Great Weapon Fighting Style, you took Blind Fighting.
If the echo is not destroyed by the attack that it blocks, then you can teleport swap with it
If the spell is of a type that doesn't destroy the echo, then the spell would go off, but hit the echo harmlessly. how that works in your game is up to the DM, does it fizzle, or does it hit the echo and bounce off? Either way the echo would still exist, and the spell slot would have been spent
If the Knight is a Changeling, does their shape changing ability extend to their Echos? Imaging you stand there, you change shape, and at the same time an echo in the shape that you just left splits from you.
Manifest Echo
At 3rd level, you can use a bonus action to magically manifest an echo of yourself in an unoccupied space you can see within 15 feet of you. This echo is a magical, translucent, gray image of you that lasts until it is destroyed, until you dismiss it as a bonus action, until you manifest another echo, or until you're incapacitated.
This is a pretty detailed description of an appearance and if you're following this text to the letter, there's not much room for getting creative. It's an image of your character. It's up to your DM if this image reflects your true appearance or your current appearance if you have a shapechange or similar ability. I think it's probably fine to reflavor the description of the echo from the book, but I think it does need to remain in a consistent appearance to preserve the intended balance. For example, my echo knight's echo is a spooky flaming skeleton with devil horns (long story, but it fits the character's lore perfectly) but it has that appearance at all times. In any case, I think the "split" trick you mentioned is stretching the rules out of balance. This is forcing more usefulness into the ability that A) isn't written into the rule, and B) isn't in line with the intended gameplay.
My theory is that once it splits off from you, it takes on your features at that moment, from then on, any modifications to appearance would have to be done to the echo directly, it being able to move and having the same equipment as you being a sign of this. Body position is a form of change. The whole thing is a temporary translucent image of you, so the equipment functions the same but is also not permanent, it will be destroyed along with the echo.
Sorry if this has been asked before, but can you split up your movement before and after using the Echo's movement?
Example, could my character move 20 ft forward, then Manifest Echo 15ft in front of me, have it walk 25ft forward (so its now 40ft away) attack, and then have my main character move 10ft further up (so its now within 30ft of Echo)? Or, would my main character have to use all of its movement either first or last vs splitting it up in between the Echo's movement?
Not sure if this has been addressed or if its typically a DM call how they want to allow split movement/actions between the character and the Echo.
Cheers
A question that I have that i didn't see an answer on the FAQ.
1. Could you potentially use the echo to teleport from a different plane back to your own? This is assuming of course you already had your echo active, and that you used your bonus action before the end of your next turn?
and another question that the FAQ already answers, but that I want some clarification on.
2. The spell "freedom of movement" allows a creature to "spend" 5ft of movement in order to escape from a grapple (that sets that creature speed to 0ft), wouldn't this precedent also allow the knight to escape from a grapple by using a bonus action to teleport away and still spend 15ft even though just like with freedom of movement, your speed is 0? (My guess is that Freedom of movement is a special case, and that the knight can't escape from a grapple using this feature, right?)
Sure, you can move 20', use your BA to Manifest Echo 15' away from you and move it 25' since on your turn, you can mentally command the echo to move up to 30 feet in any direction (no action required), use your Action to make attack(s) from your echo's position and then move your last 10' to end your turn within 30' of your echo.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/classes/fighter#EchoKnight
Breaking up move during combat (PHB): https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/phb/combat#BreakingUpYourMove
Ah ya that makes sense, good to know. Fan of the Echo Knight Barbarian multi class, might try it out next.
It's as detailed as it needs to be for 5e, which the standard is macro trumps micro, meaning that the general rule supercedes the specific one if no clear interaction is provided. In this case, the general rule is the Manifest Echo text and the specific rule you're trying to apply to it is the changeling feature. There is no clear interaction posed for these two rules so, if you are playing by RAW, you have to error on the side of the general rule, which doesn't allow for interaction with shapechange abilities. So, like MA states, your echo looks like you, not your disguise. As far as any other kind of disguise or the like, Manifest Echo also makes no distinction there, so by RAW, the same would apply. You look like you, not your disguise. Of course, DMs can interpret and run this feature however they like but I believe that is the RAW interpretation.
I do agree with your take on the appearance not hanging a big effect on balance anyway since the rules for MA states that it is always recognizable as an echo.
Hello, first post here, I want to clear up some things from the first post that I think are worth mentioning in the guide because many search for Echo Knight information and find this guide, yet it has some important omissions that cause misunderstandings on the table.
Let's begin with these two:
While the answer is correct, it's misleading. The Echo cannot be grappled, shoved or knocked prone by RAW because it's an object, not a creature, but the Echo (by RAW) can be grabbed, dragged and lifted, since it's an object and not a creature. This is a misconception that I see a LOT, even on guides about the Echo Knight, on how they can put the Echo on a doorway and the only way enemies can bypass the Echo is by killing it (wasting an attack) This isn't true at all.
Rules can be found here: https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/using-ability-scores#UsingEachAbility
The Echo is an object, it doesn't state anywhere in its description that it is immune to be pushed, dragged or lifted by anyone. The Echo is NOT immune to being manipulated just because "it's an object". Yes, I get it a lot "the Echo is an object so it's immune to XYZ!" argument (like grapple), while similar actions can be performed on objects, and this guide is also to blame for that, as the first search result that comes up. The Echo cannot be grappled, but it can be grabbed. The Echo cannot be shoved, but it can be lifted and dragged.
Looking at the Use an Object action: https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/combat#UseanObject
In other words, an Ogre can run up to the Echo, lift and toss it aside (as PART of the move, no action or attack required), then continue moving and attack the Echo Knight behind the Echo. This is RAW.
And a few questions regarding the Echo:
Where does it state that it is immune to gravity? And where does it state that it can hover in the air? Jeremy Crowford said "The echo can hang out wherever you move it." but that's not RAW.
Regarding Echo Avatar: The wording states that you can see and hear through the Echo's eyes and ears, but then it states that you are Blind and Deaf. This (by RAW) would mean an Echo Knight is blind and deaf while looking and hearing through the Echo's eyes and ears. I get what they were going with and what the intent is, but contrast the wording of the Echo Avatar with Find Familiar
Echo Avatar:
Find Familiar (https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/spells#FindFamiliar):
Emphasis mine. Echo Avatar doesn't state that you are blind and deaf in regards to your own senses, just that you are blind. Essentially, going by RAW: "You can see through your echo's eyes but you are blind". This means although you can see and hear through your Echo... you are blind and deaf.
The echo is a translucent gray image. Good luck grabbing and dragging an image.
Intent is clear. You don't need to come in here and play rules lawyer. Especially when how someone else interprets the feature doesn't need to match your table. It doesn't affect you in the slightest.
The point of the FAQ isn't to lay down the law. Nobody here can actually do that, just as nobody can actually gatekeep. The point is to inform people so they can make informed decisions when rulings are one inevitably made at the table.
A translucent gray image that can block your path and fill its space. If it can block your body from moving through it, how can you not grab and drag it?