Following the rules for an (or any) object does not make a difference in this case, versus an Echo. Simply put the Echo is strictly not a creature, therefor anything that will affect only a creature cannot affect the Echo, unless it explicitly states it can do so, including abilities that can drain life. The Echo does not need to be classified as an object to ignore effects that affect only creatures.
That's not as helpful as you might think. Some vehicles use a creature stat block. They can make saving throws. The general rules for objects don't apply to them.
The echo can make saving throws. Objects can't normally do that.
but at no point are the vehicles actually considered creatures. they're still objects, with specific rules on top of them that enable saving throws for them.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
Following the rules for an (or any) object does not make a difference in this case, versus an Echo. Simply put the Echo is strictly not a creature, therefor anything that will affect only a creature cannot affect the Echo, unless it explicitly states it can do so, including abilities that can drain life. The Echo does not need to be classified as an object to ignore effects that affect only creatures.
That's not as helpful as you might think. Some vehicles use a creature stat block. They can make saving throws. The general rules for objects don't apply to them.
The echo can make saving throws. Objects can't normally do that.
but at no point are the vehicles actually considered creatures. they're still objects, with specific rules on top of them that enable saving throws for them.
For the purpose of these rules, an object is a discrete, inanimate item like a window, door, sword, book, table, chair, or stone, not a building or a vehicle that is composed of many other objects.
A vehicle is not an object and does not use the rules for objects. If our only two choices are creature and object, then vehicle is a creature type.
Since we're discussing a subclass introduced from EGW, let's look at one of the included adventures: Dangerous Designs. The boss fight against the Stahlmaster at the end is a vehicle. If we strictly treat it as an object, as you suggest, then it cannot be grappled or shoved. The only available spells to cause damage are fire bolt, shillelagh, catapult (no save), thunderous smite (loses its rider effect), and zephyr strike. Even the blasting powder you can find throughout the adventure is useless against it.
And you can't target Stahlmast directly, so to affect him and not the vehicle requires another specialized spell; like color spray. That doesn't actually change, regardless of whether the vehicle counts as a creature or object. But it can gate the encounter. Success should not hinge on highly-specific spell selections.
I recognize that Crawford has given an unofficial answer, and it's unofficial for a reason. The echo does not behave like any object. The rules governing the feature do not call it an object. We are not bound by his interpretation, and his interpretation is not the only valid one out there.
And this FAQ could, but I do not believe has, addressed that.
Since we're discussing a subclass introduced from EGW, let's look at one of the included adventures: Dangerous Designs. The boss fight against the Stahlmaster at the end is a vehicle. If we strictly treat it as an object, as you suggest, then it cannot be grappled or shoved.
Of course it can't. When you try to grapple it, you simply succeed in grabbing it, and the DM decides to what extent, if any, you impact its speed. If you then try to drag it like you would a grappled creature, you succeed or not based strictly on the object's weight and your carrying capacity. Same thing goes for the shove, only with no rules ambiguity: if you're strong enough to push the object, you do, and if you're not, you don't.
Certainly false. As the Stahlmaster isn't magical, Shatter will deal full damage, and Disintegrate will destroy it automatically. Since it has no resistance to fire damage whatsoever, your DM may decide it is flammable, in which case e.g. Fireball will "ignite" it (the consequences of igniting it are up to your DM and may or may not inflict damage to it).
And you can't target Stahlmast directly, so to affect him and not the vehicle requires another specialized spell; like color spray.
Color spray can't ignore total cover. Because the pilot is clearly intended to be able to see out while piloting, some of the total cover must be transparent, so spells that can ignore total cover but rely on sight, like Misty Step, will work (it's up to your DM how much empty space is in the vehicle's cockpit).
That doesn't actually change, regardless of whether the vehicle counts as a creature or object. But it can gate the encounter. Success should not hinge on highly-specific spell selections.
You have successfully argued that the Stahlmaster is badly designed.
I recognize that Crawford has given an unofficial answer, and it's unofficial for a reason. The echo does not behave like any object.
It doesn't behave like a creature, since it doesn't have a turn (and trying to give it one is undefined, as it has no initiative bonus). You'll need a lot of homebrewing in order to turn it into a creature without radically nerfing or buffing the Echo Knight.
The rules governing the feature do not call it an object. We are not bound by his interpretation, and his interpretation is not the only valid one out there.
Sure, but the problem you lead with was spell targeting, which would require the Echo to be a full on creature. That makes it unplayable without a statblock, and as I mentioned above, you'll need a lot of special rules for it.
Following the rules for an (or any) object does not make a difference in this case, versus an Echo. Simply put the Echo is strictly not a creature, therefor anything that will affect only a creature cannot affect the Echo, unless it explicitly states it can do so, including abilities that can drain life. The Echo does not need to be classified as an object to ignore effects that affect only creatures.
That's not as helpful as you might think. Some vehicles use a creature stat block. They can make saving throws. The general rules for objects don't apply to them.
The echo can make saving throws. Objects can't normally do that.
but at no point are the vehicles actually considered creatures. they're still objects, with specific rules on top of them that enable saving throws for them.
For the purpose of these rules, an object is a discrete, inanimate item like a window, door, sword, book, table, chair, or stone, not a building or a vehicle that is composed of many other objects.
A vehicle is not an object and does not use the rules for objects. If our only two choices are creature and object, then vehicle is a creature type.
Since we're discussing a subclass introduced from EGW, let's look at one of the included adventures: Dangerous Designs. The boss fight against the Stahlmaster at the end is a vehicle. If we strictly treat it as an object, as you suggest, then it cannot be grappled or shoved. The only available spells to cause damage are fire bolt, shillelagh, catapult (no save), thunderous smite (loses its rider effect), and zephyr strike. Even the blasting powder you can find throughout the adventure is useless against it.
And you can't target Stahlmast directly, so to affect him and not the vehicle requires another specialized spell; like color spray. That doesn't actually change, regardless of whether the vehicle counts as a creature or object. But it can gate the encounter. Success should not hinge on highly-specific spell selections.
I recognize that Crawford has given an unofficial answer, and it's unofficial for a reason. The echo does not behave like any object. The rules governing the feature do not call it an object. We are not bound by his interpretation, and his interpretation is not the only valid one out there.
And this FAQ could, but I do not believe has, addressed that.
Our choices are not just one or the other, and I do believe that is the mistake here, in that you're assertion of having to choose "One or the other, only." limits how you feel the Echo can interact with the game, instead of the opposite. By attempting to force it into one category you actually understand less and less of its not-so-interchangeable classification interactions, by attempting to classify it alone.
The simple point still stands; the Echo is not a creature, therefor something that affects only creatures cannot affect the Echo. Knowing this, we disregard any other interactions with it concerning things that only interacts with creatures, period. The complete absence of its description as "creature" is empirical, and all which is required to satisfy any interpretation regarding its interactions with the rest of the game or vice versa.
The Echo does not need to fall into any other paradigm, directly or indirectly, as "object" or "objects", or "vehicle/s" or facsimiles therewith. So, whether siting direct sources or using the shield of interpretation, it is reflected by simple virtue of the verifiable and undeniable fact that it is just not a creature.
I had one small thing to contribute about the origin point (knighht or echo) or ranged spells when using warcaster and manifest echo : i think the origin of spells being centered on the echo seems against RAW, as they seem only to convey “martial attack” ability and not spells. Booming blade as an opportunity attack from the echo is just as consistency bresking as on ones own turn as the ‘source’ of the spell is the casters location. To me the entire kicker is replaced due to this, as for example, we might ask if a counterspell needs to be 60ft from the caster or the echo (and if one is within range of the knight but NOT the echo? Would we rule that not within range of the spell’s casting? What about touch spells? I am of the perspective thst this ability increases the range in which one can trigger opportunity attacks via enemy motion, but not increase the range on one’s spells and their origin point in such a situation.
(I believe that first the DM is always right, but that the spell source being the Knight themselves seems much more consistent with RAW, RAI, and all other rules regarding the Echo’s abilities… see below)
the rules and replacements below, both interpretations:
warcaster spell replacement text:
When a hostile creature's movement provokes an opportunity attack from you, you can use your reaction to cast a spell at the creature, rather than making an opportunity attack. The spell must have a casting time of 1 action and must target only that creature.
echo’s opportunity attack trigger text:
When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against that creature as if you were in the echo's space.
now putting them together:
Conclusion echo is source of spells:
When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it, you can use your reaction to cast a spell at the creature, as if you were in the echo's space. The spell must have a casting time of 1 action and must target only that creature.
conclusion knight is source of spells:
When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it, you can use your reaction to cast a spell at the creature, rather than making an opportunity attack. The spell must have a casting time of 1 action and must target only that creature.
Can I hold my bonus action to switch places with my echo knight when I get attacked?
no, because you can only take a bonus action on your turn.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
Can I hold my bonus action to switch places with my echo knight when I get attacked?
no, because you can only take a bonus action on your turn.
Agree. Bonus Actions only on your turn and also, Ready, holds an action, not a bonus action. So for two reasons, this won't work. :)
Excellent catch. I didn't even think of that one.
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Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
I ran into a question when using Avatar Echo for the first time a few sessions ago. It says you can be up to 1000 feet away, within 10 minutes right? But, unless your character is like a jet airplane, how are you moving more than 30 feet away? I actually tested this by making my echo in AE mode jump down a hole 500 ft below, but I didn't think if echo rules apply or my character's rules apply ie. echo properties versus flesh and blood properties
tl;dr Is Avatar Echo setting off the limiter that of over 30 feet away and it is destroyed for a limited time span? And/Or is the Avatar Echo an extension of the character, and it uses your character's walk speed to scout ahead?
I ran into a question when using Avatar Echo for the first time a few sessions ago. It says you can be up to 1000 feet away, within 10 minutes right? But, unless your character is like a jet airplane, how are you moving more than 30 feet away? I actually tested this by making my echo in AE mode jump down a hole 500 ft below, but I didn't think if echo rules apply or my character's rules apply ie. echo properties versus flesh and blood properties
tl;dr Is Avatar Echo setting off the limiter that of over 30 feet away and it is destroyed for a limited time span? And/Or is the Avatar Echo an extension of the character, and it uses your character's walk speed to scout ahead?
Specific overrides general. During the events of Echo Avatar, the 30 feet away limiter is gone, BECAUSE the Echo Avatar ability states you can move up to 1000 feet away from your original body using the echo.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
I ran into a question when using Avatar Echo for the first time a few sessions ago. It says you can be up to 1000 feet away, within 10 minutes right? But, unless your character is like a jet airplane, how are you moving more than 30 feet away? I actually tested this by making my echo in AE mode jump down a hole 500 ft below, but I didn't think if echo rules apply or my character's rules apply ie. echo properties versus flesh and blood properties
tl;dr Is Avatar Echo setting off the limiter that of over 30 feet away and it is destroyed for a limited time span? And/Or is the Avatar Echo an extension of the character, and it uses your character's walk speed to scout ahead?
Specific overrides general. During the events of Echo Avatar, the 30 feet away limiter is gone, BECAUSE the Echo Avatar ability states you can move up to 1000 feet away from your original body using the echo.
Ah ok, thanks for clarifying that bit. What about the walking/moving speed of the echo during Avatar Echo? My DM and I discussed it and came to the conclusion that I can only go as fast as my character does since my character's consciousness. It'd be kind of broken if it could just, go 1000 feet away in like. An instant. Was this the right decision?
I ran into a question when using Avatar Echo for the first time a few sessions ago. It says you can be up to 1000 feet away, within 10 minutes right? But, unless your character is like a jet airplane, how are you moving more than 30 feet away? I actually tested this by making my echo in AE mode jump down a hole 500 ft below, but I didn't think if echo rules apply or my character's rules apply ie. echo properties versus flesh and blood properties
tl;dr Is Avatar Echo setting off the limiter that of over 30 feet away and it is destroyed for a limited time span? And/Or is the Avatar Echo an extension of the character, and it uses your character's walk speed to scout ahead?
Specific overrides general. During the events of Echo Avatar, the 30 feet away limiter is gone, BECAUSE the Echo Avatar ability states you can move up to 1000 feet away from your original body using the echo.
Ah ok, thanks for clarifying that bit. What about the walking/moving speed of the echo during Avatar Echo? My DM and I discussed it and came to the conclusion that I can only go as fast as my character does since my character's consciousness. It'd be kind of broken if it could just, go 1000 feet away in like. An instant. Was this the right decision?
The right decision is whatever works for you at your table.
The big issue with the echo is it can't physically interact with the environment. You can't take ability checks through it, so it can't use Stealth to have it hide. Technically, it doesn't even say you can roll Investigation or Perception. That said, the "you can see through your echo’s eyes and hear through its ears" line seems to imply you can. So, as a scout, its usefulness is severely limited. It has to hide in plain sight (i.e. blend in).
Given that the Echo is an object and many (most) spells can't target it, what happens when you use Shadow Martyr to intercept a spell attack?
"You can make your echo throw itself in front of an attack directed at another creature that you can see. Before the attack roll is made, you can use your reaction to teleport the echo to an unoccupied space within 5 feet of the targeted creature. The attack roll that triggered the reaction is instead made against your echo."
So for example, if the wizard is targeted with an Eldritch Blast, and the Echo Knight uses Shadow Martyr to intercept, does the Eldritch Blast still happen, instead against the AC of the Echo? Or does the spell fizzle, because the Echo isn't a valid target?
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but at no point are the vehicles actually considered creatures. they're still objects, with specific rules on top of them that enable saving throws for them.
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
The DMG actively disagrees with you.
A vehicle is not an object and does not use the rules for objects. If our only two choices are creature and object, then vehicle is a creature type.
Since we're discussing a subclass introduced from EGW, let's look at one of the included adventures: Dangerous Designs. The boss fight against the Stahlmaster at the end is a vehicle. If we strictly treat it as an object, as you suggest, then it cannot be grappled or shoved. The only available spells to cause damage are fire bolt, shillelagh, catapult (no save), thunderous smite (loses its rider effect), and zephyr strike. Even the blasting powder you can find throughout the adventure is useless against it.
And you can't target Stahlmast directly, so to affect him and not the vehicle requires another specialized spell; like color spray. That doesn't actually change, regardless of whether the vehicle counts as a creature or object. But it can gate the encounter. Success should not hinge on highly-specific spell selections.
I recognize that Crawford has given an unofficial answer, and it's unofficial for a reason. The echo does not behave like any object. The rules governing the feature do not call it an object. We are not bound by his interpretation, and his interpretation is not the only valid one out there.
And this FAQ could, but I do not believe has, addressed that.
Color spray can't ignore total cover. Because the pilot is clearly intended to be able to see out while piloting, some of the total cover must be transparent, so spells that can ignore total cover but rely on sight, like Misty Step, will work (it's up to your DM how much empty space is in the vehicle's cockpit).
You have successfully argued that the Stahlmaster is badly designed.
It doesn't behave like a creature, since it doesn't have a turn (and trying to give it one is undefined, as it has no initiative bonus). You'll need a lot of homebrewing in order to turn it into a creature without radically nerfing or buffing the Echo Knight.
Sure, but the problem you lead with was spell targeting, which would require the Echo to be a full on creature. That makes it unplayable without a statblock, and as I mentioned above, you'll need a lot of special rules for it.
Our choices are not just one or the other, and I do believe that is the mistake here, in that you're assertion of having to choose "One or the other, only." limits how you feel the Echo can interact with the game, instead of the opposite. By attempting to force it into one category you actually understand less and less of its not-so-interchangeable classification interactions, by attempting to classify it alone.
The simple point still stands; the Echo is not a creature, therefor something that affects only creatures cannot affect the Echo. Knowing this, we disregard any other interactions with it concerning things that only interacts with creatures, period. The complete absence of its description as "creature" is empirical, and all which is required to satisfy any interpretation regarding its interactions with the rest of the game or vice versa.
The Echo does not need to fall into any other paradigm, directly or indirectly, as "object" or "objects", or "vehicle/s" or facsimiles therewith. So, whether siting direct sources or using the shield of interpretation, it is reflected by simple virtue of the verifiable and undeniable fact that it is just not a creature.
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I had one small thing to contribute about the origin point (knighht or echo) or ranged spells when using warcaster and manifest echo : i think the origin of spells being centered on the echo seems against RAW, as they seem only to convey “martial attack” ability and not spells. Booming blade as an opportunity attack from the echo is just as consistency bresking as on ones own turn as the ‘source’ of the spell is the casters location. To me the entire kicker is replaced due to this, as for example, we might ask if a counterspell needs to be 60ft from the caster or the echo (and if one is within range of the knight but NOT the echo? Would we rule that not within range of the spell’s casting? What about touch spells? I am of the perspective thst this ability increases the range in which one can trigger opportunity attacks via enemy motion, but not increase the range on one’s spells and their origin point in such a situation.
(I believe that first the DM is always right, but that the spell source being the Knight themselves seems much more consistent with RAW, RAI, and all other rules regarding the Echo’s abilities… see below)
the rules and replacements below, both interpretations:
warcaster spell replacement text:
echo’s opportunity attack trigger text:
now putting them together:
Conclusion echo is source of spells:
conclusion knight is source of spells:
Can a character willingly allow an echo knight to die against an opportunity attack to let it dispel?
only if they hit it, although if your table treats the echo as an object, they can't make an opportunity attack against it
thank you
Can I use the Echo to melee attack from a distance, as long as the echo is within 5 ft of the targeted creature?
yes, absolutely. Assuming you have a melee weapon equipped. Although you could also use an unarmed strike.
Can I hold my bonus action to switch places with my echo knight when I get attacked?
no, because you can only take a bonus action on your turn.
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
Agree. Bonus Actions only on your turn and also, Ready, holds an action, not a bonus action. So for two reasons, this won't work. :)
Excellent catch. I didn't even think of that one.
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
I ran into a question when using Avatar Echo for the first time a few sessions ago. It says you can be up to 1000 feet away, within 10 minutes right? But, unless your character is like a jet airplane, how are you moving more than 30 feet away? I actually tested this by making my echo in AE mode jump down a hole 500 ft below, but I didn't think if echo rules apply or my character's rules apply ie. echo properties versus flesh and blood properties
tl;dr Is Avatar Echo setting off the limiter that of over 30 feet away and it is destroyed for a limited time span? And/Or is the Avatar Echo an extension of the character, and it uses your character's walk speed to scout ahead?
Specific overrides general. During the events of Echo Avatar, the 30 feet away limiter is gone, BECAUSE the Echo Avatar ability states you can move up to 1000 feet away from your original body using the echo.
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
Ah ok, thanks for clarifying that bit. What about the walking/moving speed of the echo during Avatar Echo? My DM and I discussed it and came to the conclusion that I can only go as fast as my character does since my character's consciousness. It'd be kind of broken if it could just, go 1000 feet away in like. An instant. Was this the right decision?
The right decision is whatever works for you at your table.
The big issue with the echo is it can't physically interact with the environment. You can't take ability checks through it, so it can't use Stealth to have it hide. Technically, it doesn't even say you can roll Investigation or Perception. That said, the "you can see through your echo’s eyes and hear through its ears" line seems to imply you can. So, as a scout, its usefulness is severely limited. It has to hide in plain sight (i.e. blend in).
Given that the Echo is an object and many (most) spells can't target it, what happens when you use Shadow Martyr to intercept a spell attack?
"You can make your echo throw itself in front of an attack directed at another creature that you can see. Before the attack roll is made, you can use your reaction to teleport the echo to an unoccupied space within 5 feet of the targeted creature. The attack roll that triggered the reaction is instead made against your echo."
So for example, if the wizard is targeted with an Eldritch Blast, and the Echo Knight uses Shadow Martyr to intercept, does the Eldritch Blast still happen, instead against the AC of the Echo? Or does the spell fizzle, because the Echo isn't a valid target?