Thanks! I was honestly surprised that TCoE didn't have a feat like that in it, as there are different versions for a lot of other classes. If you want to put it in the OP, feel absolutely free to do so. I'm glad you like it.
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Thanks! OP has been updated. Added the dart sharpshooter thanks to Cheeky_Hamster as well to better show the two divergent paths for a thrower. Throwers look like a much more diverse group than archers. Very exciting to me.
I fully expect to see a feat just like that in a supplement down the line by the way. They have to bank away some of the easier designs though. It's a marathon for them; it does them no good to release too much at once.
Hmm. . . I feel the need to theorycraft a dart-slinging, magical Battle Master. If you take at least 18 levels in Battle Master, and have the Martial Adept and Sharpshooter feats, Thrown Weapon fighting style and Archery fighting style, and have some way of having a returning weapon, this is how combat is going to go for you:
You have 7 Superiority Dice, all of them are d12s, and you regain all of them when you finish a short rest. If you have a +5 to Strength or Dexterity (you can use either, as darts are finesse), your bonus to hit is +14, or a +9 if you're using Sharpshooter. When you hit, you're going to be doing 1d4+8 piercing damage on a hit, or 1d4+18 with Sharpshooter. Additionally, you may use Precision Attack to make sure you hit, or if you want to crank out more damage with your attacks, you can do Tripping or Pushing Attack to add an additional 1d12 damage to the attack.
So, you have 3 attacks each Attack action, and can use Quick Toss as a bonus action to attack an additional time on the same turn. You can even use Action Surge on the same turn to make a total of 7 attacks on one turn. So, if you assume that you use Sharpshooter and blow through all of your superiority dice on this same turn to maximize damage, this is how much damage you'll be doing each attack:
Average Damage each Attack: 1d4 + 1d12 + 18 for an average of 27 damage each attack Average Damage for 7 Attacks: 189 damage Maximum Damage each Attack (non-critical): 34 damage each attack Maximum Damage for 7 Attacks (non-critical): 238 damage Average Damage each Attack (critical): 36 damage each attack Average Damage for 7 Attacks (all critical): 252 damage Maximum Damage each Attack (critical): 50 damage each attack Maximum Damage for 7 Attacks (all critical): 350 damage
So, if you're looking for a good build that deals consistently good damage, this one certainly fills the roll. It's not good at nova damage, but that's not what you're looking for with this build. Besides, it's too cool not to play. You're throwing a magical dart around the battlefield, knocking people on their face and pushing them off cliffs.
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Nice. Thanks for putting some numbers to the idea. I think quick toss, (and the maneuvers in general) will play very well from lower levels as well. Battle Master has more than proven itself since the inception of 5e. Strong, consistent damage and tactical versatility is a recipe for success.
I'm currently really amused by a battle master 6/ thief 14 build. I'd play it as an Orc that stole the heirloom (Dwarven Thrower) to an ancient line of Dwarven nobles. Now I just need a level 20 one shot...
So happy to have found this thread on this topic! Playing around with a character idea for fun based around a thrown weapon fighter. Loved the breakdown by Third_Sundering & your thoughts/insights HeironymusZot!!
Battle Master is the way to go definitely before, or if, you were to multi-class. As far as other class combos I definitely think rogue is great for cunning action to get out of trouble & the extra 2d6 sneak attack if just dipping into it for an archetype also is nice. More damage is more damage! Also ranger & artificer each has some nice choices as well. I imagine a style using darts &/or daggers. Think Danny Trejo from the movie Desperado with his throwing knives. Those are just reskinned darts IMO.
You definitely want Sharpshooter, Fighting Initiate (Archery), Martial Adept and if you are gonna go darts/daggers you should also somewhere along the way get the Piercer feat. Race can be whichever you want as long as either a STR or DEX boost but honestly with Tasha's it can be almost any race at this point. Just look at the racial abilities that you would like to use to race you wanna play.
As far as items, yes a returning weapon would be great since you will also want a magical one eventually to help when mundane weapons eventually don't hit more & more critters as hard. A blinkback belt home-brewed from Pathfinder is a fun idea. Vax from CR certainly liked his!! LOL But there is also this item, Bracer of Flying Daggers, from Waterdeep: Dragon Heist. It is Jarlaxle Baenre's but it is available in DDB and who's to say there are not others out there? I don't have access to WDH but here is the item in the FR Wiki. Pretty cool & fixes all your problems if you can get your hands on one!
The bracer of flying daggers is cool, but it's not very useful for a fighter or any martial class vvith extra attack.
One thing that I alvvays run into vvhich bothers me vvith the throvving builds, is having to pick betvveen a bonus actino attack and being able to take advantage of sharpshooter... Obviously there's quicktoss, but I vvould've loved in there vvas a feat similar to crossbovv expert for throvvn vveapons... Right novv you can either use daggers and get the bonus actino attack, or use darts and get to use sharpshooter.
Obviously it seems a little spoiled to vvish for such a specfic solution, but vvhen you have the hand crossbo setup right there infront of you, it's hard not to compare and find out that the throvvn optino is just vvorse.
I'm sorry for having to use "vv" instead of the real thing.. the "vv" key is broken on my laptop keyboard.
The bracer of flying daggers is cool, but it's not very useful for a fighter or any martial class vvith extra attack.
One thing that I alvvays run into vvhich bothers me vvith the throvving builds, is having to pick betvveen a bonus actino attack and being able to take advantage of sharpshooter... Obviously there's quicktoss, but I vvould've loved in there vvas a feat similar to crossbovv expert for throvvn vveapons... Right novv you can either use daggers and get the bonus actino attack, or use darts and get to use sharpshooter.
Obviously it seems a little spoiled to vvish for such a specfic solution, but vvhen you have the hand crossbo setup right there infront of you, it's hard not to compare and find out that the throvvn optino is just vvorse.
I'm sorry for having to use "vv" instead of the real thing.. the "vv" key is broken on my laptop keyboard.
Wow! How did I miss that!? That sucks! It's the "Action for two daggers" that kills it for a fighter! If only it was just endless daggers so you could draw & throw with each attack with the Thrown Weapon Fighting Style!! The style still has a good place for martials, but at higher levels not for a fighter that specializes in throwing without certain equipment. Barbarians taking Thrown Weapon Fighting Style for javelins for when they can't get close would be helpful. A dwarf Battle Master that finds a thrower later could change around fighting styles & maneuvers to suit using it at range. Etc.
If someone, not in Adventurer's League, wanted to play this I would hope the DM would home-brew some cool items or look to others that have to give the thrown weapon player some fun stuff.
Thanks for the input & no vvorries regarding your VVs.
Another issue vvith the bracer is that since it's not an attack action, throvving the daggers vvont trigger 2 vveapon fighting either as far as I can tell. Themacially the item is really cool, but I only think it's useful for rogues since it allovvs for 2 chances to trigger sneak attack vvithout competing vvith cunning action... That or dex clerics I guess.. A trickster cleric vvith bracer of daggers could be kinda cool tbh.
I don't own waterdeep and the fandom wiki doesn't mention what you're talking about MamasToast. It sounds like its a special action to draw and make the two attacks? A faux extra attack if you will. If so, that seems great for a thrower rogue. Solves the magic weapon problem while also doubling the chance to land sneak attack.
One thing that I alvvays run into vvhich bothers me vvith the throvving builds, is having to pick betvveen a bonus actino attack and being able to take advantage of sharpshooter... Obviously there's quicktoss, but I vvould've loved in there vvas a feat similar to crossbovv expert for throvvn vveapons... Right novv you can either use daggers and get the bonus actino attack, or use darts and get to use sharpshooter.
I'm confused by this. Nothing is stopping the dart build from taking advantage of Quick Toss. The dart is a ranged weapon with the thrown property, so it qualifies for both quick toss and sharpshooter. Getting a bonus action sharpshooter attack is the dart-focused Battlemaster thrower's best feature.
Oh you misunderstood me... There's nothing stopping you from using quicktoss.. I vvas saying that unlike the handcrossbovv or tvvovveapon fighting vvith daggers, you have to pay a very limited resource to gain that bonus attack... a resource you could be using to do all sorts of other stuff, like enhancing your accuracy.
I vvas just saying that I vvish there vvas a crossbovv master feat for trhovvn vveapons so that you could invest an ASI in gaining that bonus attack, rather than giving up most of your martial arts dice to use it.
Ahh I see. Yes, it is definitely limiting having the BA attack tied to a limited resource like superiority dice. Especially with all of the other great uses for them. It would be nice to have a crossbow expert style feat, but meh. I don't need every style to get the same treatment and I like what the Dart Battlemaster has going. It can play second fiddle to more standard archers. I'm just happy it has some support at all. The style was completely non-functional for anyone making more than one attack a round before Tasha's and Thrown Weapon Style so this was already a huge step. I could see weapon style feats being explored in the next supplement. The way they put a pretty heavy emphasis on half-feats in Tasha's.
Yea it's not terrible.. I guess I just sort of like the idea of throvving a lot of darts quickly.. But I guess you can't have everything. I vvas considering a vvar cleric dip.. I'd persoanlly aim for a decent vvisdom anyvvay, since I tihnk a good perception is very thematic to a knife throvver.. That'd give a fevv free bonus action attacks asvell as access to bless.. Personally I also like the idea of a devout character vvho's main combat style isn't strictly cleric.. But that may not be for everyone.
The War Cleric dip makes some good sense. I like that a lot. Stacking multiple finite sources of BA attacks helps cover a whole day. And Divine Favor is an awesome damage buff to get access to as well as the impeccable Bless. The build is quite SAD so finding room for a decent wisdom should not be too hard, although if you're relying on Artificer to solve the magic weapon problem then it is a bit tricky. A very nice thought indeed.
Yea I vvouldn't combo it vvith the artificer dip, so some other solution vvould be needed for the magic vveapon problem.. It's a shame that divine favor doesn't turn the entire attack magical.
Yeah that would be such a nice solution to the magic weapon problem. More than a lack of bonus action attack feat support, I'm annoyed that there really is only one way to get around the magic weapon problem without relying on a DM willing to throw you a magic item bone or allow homebrew feats. I hope this is addressed at some point.
If you are going the Artificer 2 route I would just pick up Fey Touched for Hex. 3 casts of Hex and Quickthrows should keep your bonus action busy for the day.
If taking the artificer dip for returning vveapon... Is the throvvn vveapon fighting style even a good idea? The +2 damage is of course decent, but I feel like the ASI could be spent better, and vvith returning vveapon vve no longer need to dravv alot of darts.
If taking the artificer dip for returning vveapon... Is the throvvn vveapon fighting style even a good idea? The +2 damage is of course decent, but I feel like the ASI could be spent better, and vvith returning vveapon vve no longer need to dravv alot of darts.
Yes it is worth it. Think about it: Returning Weapon + Archery Fighting Style + Thrown Weapon Fighting Style = +3 to hit and +3 to damage. Thats the equivalent of a +3 weapon and all it costs you is a feat and a infusion. It also helps that Fighters get a lot of ASIs.
You also have to take into account the progression of the build. It starts with 5 or 6 levels of fighter. You need a solution for drawing multiple weapons by the time you pick up quick toss at level 3 and the build won't have the infusion online yet.
I really only consider Variant Human (or Custom Lineage) for this build. Starting level one with Archery and Thrown Weapon means a flat +2 to hit and damage which I think is quite nice.
You also have to take into account the progression of the build. It starts with 5 or 6 levels of fighter. You need a solution for drawing multiple weapons by the time you pick up quick toss at level 3 and the build won't have the infusion online yet.
I really only consider Variant Human (or Custom Lineage) for this build. Starting level one with Archery and Thrown Weapon means a flat +2 to hit and damage which I think is quite nice.
Just take Thrown Weapon Fighting at Fighter 1 and pick up Archery later. Problem solved.
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Thanks! I was honestly surprised that TCoE didn't have a feat like that in it, as there are different versions for a lot of other classes. If you want to put it in the OP, feel absolutely free to do so. I'm glad you like it.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Thanks! OP has been updated. Added the dart sharpshooter thanks to Cheeky_Hamster as well to better show the two divergent paths for a thrower. Throwers look like a much more diverse group than archers. Very exciting to me.
I fully expect to see a feat just like that in a supplement down the line by the way. They have to bank away some of the easier designs though. It's a marathon for them; it does them no good to release too much at once.
Hmm. . . I feel the need to theorycraft a dart-slinging, magical Battle Master. If you take at least 18 levels in Battle Master, and have the Martial Adept and Sharpshooter feats, Thrown Weapon fighting style and Archery fighting style, and have some way of having a returning weapon, this is how combat is going to go for you:
You have 7 Superiority Dice, all of them are d12s, and you regain all of them when you finish a short rest. If you have a +5 to Strength or Dexterity (you can use either, as darts are finesse), your bonus to hit is +14, or a +9 if you're using Sharpshooter. When you hit, you're going to be doing 1d4+8 piercing damage on a hit, or 1d4+18 with Sharpshooter. Additionally, you may use Precision Attack to make sure you hit, or if you want to crank out more damage with your attacks, you can do Tripping or Pushing Attack to add an additional 1d12 damage to the attack.
So, you have 3 attacks each Attack action, and can use Quick Toss as a bonus action to attack an additional time on the same turn. You can even use Action Surge on the same turn to make a total of 7 attacks on one turn. So, if you assume that you use Sharpshooter and blow through all of your superiority dice on this same turn to maximize damage, this is how much damage you'll be doing each attack:
Average Damage each Attack: 1d4 + 1d12 + 18 for an average of 27 damage each attack
Average Damage for 7 Attacks: 189 damage
Maximum Damage each Attack (non-critical): 34 damage each attack
Maximum Damage for 7 Attacks (non-critical): 238 damage
Average Damage each Attack (critical): 36 damage each attack
Average Damage for 7 Attacks (all critical): 252 damage
Maximum Damage each Attack (critical): 50 damage each attack
Maximum Damage for 7 Attacks (all critical): 350 damage
So, if you're looking for a good build that deals consistently good damage, this one certainly fills the roll. It's not good at nova damage, but that's not what you're looking for with this build. Besides, it's too cool not to play. You're throwing a magical dart around the battlefield, knocking people on their face and pushing them off cliffs.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Nice. Thanks for putting some numbers to the idea. I think quick toss, (and the maneuvers in general) will play very well from lower levels as well. Battle Master has more than proven itself since the inception of 5e. Strong, consistent damage and tactical versatility is a recipe for success.
I'm currently really amused by a battle master 6/ thief 14 build. I'd play it as an Orc that stole the heirloom (Dwarven Thrower) to an ancient line of Dwarven nobles. Now I just need a level 20 one shot...
So happy to have found this thread on this topic! Playing around with a character idea for fun based around a thrown weapon fighter. Loved the breakdown by Third_Sundering & your thoughts/insights HeironymusZot!!
Battle Master is the way to go definitely before, or if, you were to multi-class. As far as other class combos I definitely think rogue is great for cunning action to get out of trouble & the extra 2d6 sneak attack if just dipping into it for an archetype also is nice. More damage is more damage! Also ranger & artificer each has some nice choices as well. I imagine a style using darts &/or daggers. Think Danny Trejo from the movie Desperado with his throwing knives. Those are just reskinned darts IMO.
You definitely want Sharpshooter, Fighting Initiate (Archery), Martial Adept and if you are gonna go darts/daggers you should also somewhere along the way get the Piercer feat. Race can be whichever you want as long as either a STR or DEX boost but honestly with Tasha's it can be almost any race at this point. Just look at the racial abilities that you would like to use to race you wanna play.
As far as items, yes a returning weapon would be great since you will also want a magical one eventually to help when mundane weapons eventually don't hit more & more critters as hard. A blinkback belt home-brewed from Pathfinder is a fun idea. Vax from CR certainly liked his!! LOL But there is also this item, Bracer of Flying Daggers, from Waterdeep: Dragon Heist. It is Jarlaxle Baenre's but it is available in DDB and who's to say there are not others out there? I don't have access to WDH but here is the item in the FR Wiki. Pretty cool & fixes all your problems if you can get your hands on one!
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Bracer_of_flying_daggers
Cheers & happy throwing!!!
The bracer of flying daggers is cool, but it's not very useful for a fighter or any martial class vvith extra attack.
One thing that I alvvays run into vvhich bothers me vvith the throvving builds, is having to pick betvveen a bonus actino attack and being able to take advantage of sharpshooter... Obviously there's quicktoss, but I vvould've loved in there vvas a feat similar to crossbovv expert for throvvn vveapons... Right novv you can either use daggers and get the bonus actino attack, or use darts and get to use sharpshooter.
Obviously it seems a little spoiled to vvish for such a specfic solution, but vvhen you have the hand crossbo setup right there infront of you, it's hard not to compare and find out that the throvvn optino is just vvorse.
I'm sorry for having to use "vv" instead of the real thing.. the "vv" key is broken on my laptop keyboard.
Wow! How did I miss that!? That sucks! It's the "Action for two daggers" that kills it for a fighter! If only it was just endless daggers so you could draw & throw with each attack with the Thrown Weapon Fighting Style!! The style still has a good place for martials, but at higher levels not for a fighter that specializes in throwing without certain equipment. Barbarians taking Thrown Weapon Fighting Style for javelins for when they can't get close would be helpful. A dwarf Battle Master that finds a thrower later could change around fighting styles & maneuvers to suit using it at range. Etc.
If someone, not in Adventurer's League, wanted to play this I would hope the DM would home-brew some cool items or look to others that have to give the thrown weapon player some fun stuff.
Thanks for the input & no vvorries regarding your VVs.
Another issue vvith the bracer is that since it's not an attack action, throvving the daggers vvont trigger 2 vveapon fighting either as far as I can tell. Themacially the item is really cool, but I only think it's useful for rogues since it allovvs for 2 chances to trigger sneak attack vvithout competing vvith cunning action... That or dex clerics I guess.. A trickster cleric vvith bracer of daggers could be kinda cool tbh.
Glad you found this thread Actorclown. Welcome!
I don't own waterdeep and the fandom wiki doesn't mention what you're talking about MamasToast. It sounds like its a special action to draw and make the two attacks? A faux extra attack if you will. If so, that seems great for a thrower rogue. Solves the magic weapon problem while also doubling the chance to land sneak attack.
I'm confused by this. Nothing is stopping the dart build from taking advantage of Quick Toss. The dart is a ranged weapon with the thrown property, so it qualifies for both quick toss and sharpshooter. Getting a bonus action sharpshooter attack is the dart-focused Battlemaster thrower's best feature.
Oh you misunderstood me... There's nothing stopping you from using quicktoss.. I vvas saying that unlike the handcrossbovv or tvvovveapon fighting vvith daggers, you have to pay a very limited resource to gain that bonus attack... a resource you could be using to do all sorts of other stuff, like enhancing your accuracy.
I vvas just saying that I vvish there vvas a crossbovv master feat for trhovvn vveapons so that you could invest an ASI in gaining that bonus attack, rather than giving up most of your martial arts dice to use it.
Ahh I see. Yes, it is definitely limiting having the BA attack tied to a limited resource like superiority dice. Especially with all of the other great uses for them. It would be nice to have a crossbow expert style feat, but meh. I don't need every style to get the same treatment and I like what the Dart Battlemaster has going. It can play second fiddle to more standard archers. I'm just happy it has some support at all. The style was completely non-functional for anyone making more than one attack a round before Tasha's and Thrown Weapon Style so this was already a huge step. I could see weapon style feats being explored in the next supplement. The way they put a pretty heavy emphasis on half-feats in Tasha's.
Yea it's not terrible.. I guess I just sort of like the idea of throvving a lot of darts quickly.. But I guess you can't have everything. I vvas considering a vvar cleric dip.. I'd persoanlly aim for a decent vvisdom anyvvay, since I tihnk a good perception is very thematic to a knife throvver.. That'd give a fevv free bonus action attacks asvell as access to bless.. Personally I also like the idea of a devout character vvho's main combat style isn't strictly cleric.. But that may not be for everyone.
The War Cleric dip makes some good sense. I like that a lot. Stacking multiple finite sources of BA attacks helps cover a whole day. And Divine Favor is an awesome damage buff to get access to as well as the impeccable Bless. The build is quite SAD so finding room for a decent wisdom should not be too hard, although if you're relying on Artificer to solve the magic weapon problem then it is a bit tricky. A very nice thought indeed.
Yea I vvouldn't combo it vvith the artificer dip, so some other solution vvould be needed for the magic vveapon problem.. It's a shame that divine favor doesn't turn the entire attack magical.
Yeah that would be such a nice solution to the magic weapon problem. More than a lack of bonus action attack feat support, I'm annoyed that there really is only one way to get around the magic weapon problem without relying on a DM willing to throw you a magic item bone or allow homebrew feats. I hope this is addressed at some point.
If you are going the Artificer 2 route I would just pick up Fey Touched for Hex. 3 casts of Hex and Quickthrows should keep your bonus action busy for the day.
If taking the artificer dip for returning vveapon... Is the throvvn vveapon fighting style even a good idea? The +2 damage is of course decent, but I feel like the ASI could be spent better, and vvith returning vveapon vve no longer need to dravv alot of darts.
Yes it is worth it. Think about it: Returning Weapon + Archery Fighting Style + Thrown Weapon Fighting Style = +3 to hit and +3 to damage. Thats the equivalent of a +3 weapon and all it costs you is a feat and a infusion. It also helps that Fighters get a lot of ASIs.
You also have to take into account the progression of the build. It starts with 5 or 6 levels of fighter. You need a solution for drawing multiple weapons by the time you pick up quick toss at level 3 and the build won't have the infusion online yet.
I really only consider Variant Human (or Custom Lineage) for this build. Starting level one with Archery and Thrown Weapon means a flat +2 to hit and damage which I think is quite nice.
Just take Thrown Weapon Fighting at Fighter 1 and pick up Archery later. Problem solved.