I don't know if I'd say BM is all that versatile. At least, not all on one build. A DPR build has little value for finicky maneuvers that rely on saves, when they'd be better off using their dice on riposte, precision, and brace (for non PAM builds) for the sake of getting the most out of action economy.
Fact of the matter, you're limited to a small handful of maneuvers, and only have so few meaningful opportunities to use them. Sure, you could try and use trip attack all the time, but most monsters that make melee attacks have pretty good STR scores, and the same could be said for disarming strike and most melee opponents that use weapons. Menacing works nice, as not everything has a good WIS score, but also, plenty are immune too. But, you know when precision and riposte are useful? All the time.
Battle master's versatility is build to build. You can't have three different builds at once but you can have any one of those three (providing they're non-magical).
Its edge is that if you can't find a subclass that fits your concept, battle master can be crafted to fit.
I don't know if I'd say BM is all that versatile. At least, not all on one build. A DPR build has little value for finicky maneuvers that rely on saves, when they'd be better off using their dice on riposte, precision, and brace (for non PAM builds) for the sake of getting the most out of action economy.
Fact of the matter, you're limited to a small handful of maneuvers, and only have so few meaningful opportunities to use them. Sure, you could try and use trip attack all the time, but most monsters that make melee attacks have pretty good STR scores, and the same could be said for disarming strike and most melee opponents that use weapons. Menacing works nice, as not everything has a good WIS score, but also, plenty are immune too. But, you know when precision and riposte are useful? All the time.
Battle master's versatility is build to build. You can't have three different builds at once but you can have any one of those three (providing they're non-magical).
Its edge is that if you can't find a subclass that fits your concept, battle master can be crafted to fit.
Agreed. That’s why I rather get Goading Attack instead of Menacing. Tasha’s also added lots of new useful maneuvers like Quick Toss (amazing when paired with a Net), Restraining Strike, Brace and etc.
My favourite is battlemaster. To me, it's essentially what the default fighter 'should' be. It has so much fun customisation, and each build can feel so different. When you combine it with the martial adept feat and the superior technique fighting style, you can completely double down on its playstyle.
Not counting purple dragon knight (seriously I don't even count it as anything more than a bad homebrew), my least favourite is eldritch knight. I played one and hated it. It's essentially a bad swordmage with everything which makes a swordmage fun removed. And the worst part of it is that people point at it to 'prove' we don't need a swordmage class.
Spellstrike type mechanics or spells. All EK has is two cantrips. dnd 3e duskblade, pathfinder 1e and 2e magus, and dnd 4e swordmage are all great for this.
Paladin, Ranger, and Hexblade all manage the mechanics a lot better with spells like searing smite and ensnaring strike. But all of them have a lot of thematic baggage to fight around. It's ironic that the arcane gish archtype is the one which was originally known for the mechanic, but in 5e is the one which is worst at it.
Honestly EK would be fine if it had a custom list with all the spells like searing smite and elemental weapon on. But it uses the wizard list, which is understandably not designed all around weapon attacks and melee combat.
I mean I'm sure that's a good playstyle for some. But when I was pointed to the class looking for something like the earlier edition swordmages, and instead found something nothing like them, I was disappointed.
And I hold a complete grudge against the subclass due to it being used by people as proof that we don't need a spellstriking arcane gish.
Battlemaster is easily my favorite, as the mechanics are very good, and it's not hard to flavor into various character RP designs.
Least favorite is Champion.. yes, the bonuses arent bad mechanically, but they dont necessarily help to design a charactee. Critical hit range is so limiting in 5e, that this is really the only thing that stands out about the class for me.
Battlemaster is easily my favorite, as the mechanics are very good, and it's not hard to flavor into various character RP designs.
Least favorite is Champion.. yes, the bonuses arent bad mechanically, but they dont necessarily help to design a charactee. Critical hit range is so limiting in 5e, that this is really the only thing that stands out about the class for me.
Champion made sense with PHB but I think it warrants a second look at this point...along with PDK I would love for them to make some changes or variants for them.
For champion I would basically do Brute from UA for variant features.
For PDK I would give them the ability to use a reaction to aid an ally depending on what "Stance" they were in. You pick a stance at 3rd level and get more as you progress. You can swap stances with a BA.
Defensive Stance: As a reaction you can give a creature you see within 30ft a bonus to their AC against a single attack. This bonus equals your CHA modifier (minimum of 1). Offensive Stance: As a reaction you can give a creature you see a bonus to a single attack roll. This bonus equals your CHA modifier (minimum of 1). Mob Stance: As a reaction when an creature within 30ft is surrounded by 2 or more creatures you can command them to make an attack against one of the creatures. This attack gains a damage bonus equal to your CHA modifier.
Also to fit in somewhere: When you use your Second Wind ability, Allies within 30 ft of you receive healing equal to your CHA modifier (Minimum of 1).
I have saw some Champion builds using both Crusher and/or Slasher feat alongside Light Hammer and Handaxes, the Throwing Weapon + Two-Weapon fighting styles… a lot of different options and good effects without burning any temporary resource.
I have saw some Champion builds using both Crusher and/or Slasher feat alongside Light Hammer and Handaxes, the Throwing Weapon + Two-Weapon fighting styles… a lot of different options and good effects without burning any temporary resource.
Two feats tho that's a lot just to make it as good as Battlemaster.
I have saw some Champion builds using both Crusher and/or Slasher feat alongside Light Hammer and Handaxes, the Throwing Weapon + Two-Weapon fighting styles… a lot of different options and good effects without burning any temporary resource.
Two feats tho that's a lot just to make it as good as Battlemaster.
Except that Fighter has Extra ASI's to burn on a couple feats... And all kinds of battlemaster's are wasting them on at least 2 ASI's to make them what people really call good since people often demand that they have things like GWM and PAM and/or possibly others at all times.
I have saw some Champion builds using both Crusher and/or Slasher feat alongside Light Hammer and Handaxes, the Throwing Weapon + Two-Weapon fighting styles… a lot of different options and good effects without burning any temporary resource.
Two feats tho that's a lot just to make it as good as Battlemaster.
Except that Fighter has Extra ASI's to burn on a couple feats... And all kinds of battlemaster's are wasting them on at least 2 ASI's to make them what people really call good since people often demand that they have things like GWM and PAM and/or possibly others at all times.
But that puts them in the 1% for damage while the champion needs those feats to just pull even with a barebones Battlemaster.
I have saw some Champion builds using both Crusher and/or Slasher feat alongside Light Hammer and Handaxes, the Throwing Weapon + Two-Weapon fighting styles… a lot of different options and good effects without burning any temporary resource.
Two feats tho that's a lot just to make it as good as Battlemaster.
Except that Fighter has Extra ASI's to burn on a couple feats... And all kinds of battlemaster's are wasting them on at least 2 ASI's to make them what people really call good since people often demand that they have things like GWM and PAM and/or possibly others at all times.
But that puts them in the 1% for damage while the champion needs those feats to just pull even with a barebones Battlemaster.
This is not actually true. This is a bad perception based upon bad white rooming that does not actually make room for the real damage done over time. Everybody does the math over just one or two turns where the Battle Master can use all their techniques and superiority dice to increase damage with little downtime where such are not available. Over a stretched out period of time and many combat rounds. The Champion even on average does at least as much damage as the Battlemaster fighter.
Also while there is chance for Battle Master to tailor damage into crits a bit by choosing to use a superiority dice when they know They have a crit. There is a lot of variables to make this work that do not always actually like up in practice. The Objective Reality is that with 2 to eventually 3 times the Crit Range at their disposal, Crit Fishing Builds actually favor the Champion over the Battle Master because the extra Crits are going to make up and even potentially exceed the gap of the occasionally more and occasionally more controllable damage of the Battle Master.
I have saw some Champion builds using both Crusher and/or Slasher feat alongside Light Hammer and Handaxes, the Throwing Weapon + Two-Weapon fighting styles… a lot of different options and good effects without burning any temporary resource.
Two feats tho that's a lot just to make it as good as Battlemaster.
Except that Fighter has Extra ASI's to burn on a couple feats... And all kinds of battlemaster's are wasting them on at least 2 ASI's to make them what people really call good since people often demand that they have things like GWM and PAM and/or possibly others at all times.
But that puts them in the 1% for damage while the champion needs those feats to just pull even with a barebones Battlemaster.
This is not actually true. This is a bad perception based upon bad white rooming that does not actually make room for the real damage done over time. Everybody does the math over just one or two turns where the Battle Master can use all their techniques and superiority dice to increase damage with little downtime where such are not available. Over a stretched out period of time and many combat rounds. The Champion even on average does at least as much damage as the Battlemaster fighter.
Also while there is chance for Battle Master to tailor damage into crits a bit by choosing to use a superiority dice when they know They have a crit. There is a lot of variables to make this work that do not always actually like up in practice. The Objective Reality is that with 2 to eventually 3 times the Crit Range at their disposal, Crit Fishing Builds actually favor the Champion over the Battle Master because the extra Crits are going to make up and even potentially exceed the gap of the occasionally more and occasionally more controllable damage of the Battle Master.
Nah the math I've seen takes into account having 2 short rest a day and having 3-5 rounds of combat with 1-2 encounters between rests.
I won't dive into it as it's a completely separate discussion but I'm very comfortable saying that unless you have 6-8 combats a day and no short rest that's the only way the champion pulls ahead... And even that's just comparing the base class with ASI going to ability scores and not feats.
If you include feats BM pulls ahead really easily with the help of the damage feats and precision attack.
That's really besides the point as champion is mostly bad to me because it's just so terribly boring.
I have saw some Champion builds using both Crusher and/or Slasher feat alongside Light Hammer and Handaxes, the Throwing Weapon + Two-Weapon fighting styles… a lot of different options and good effects without burning any temporary resource.
Two feats tho that's a lot just to make it as good as Battlemaster.
Except that Fighter has Extra ASI's to burn on a couple feats... And all kinds of battlemaster's are wasting them on at least 2 ASI's to make them what people really call good since people often demand that they have things like GWM and PAM and/or possibly others at all times.
But that puts them in the 1% for damage while the champion needs those feats to just pull even with a barebones Battlemaster.
This is not actually true. This is a bad perception based upon bad white rooming that does not actually make room for the real damage done over time. Everybody does the math over just one or two turns where the Battle Master can use all their techniques and superiority dice to increase damage with little downtime where such are not available. Over a stretched out period of time and many combat rounds. The Champion even on average does at least as much damage as the Battlemaster fighter.
Stretched out over time, but stretched out over the typical 3 encounters per rest? The BM I expect would still have the edge, and it's not only damage but all the other things the superiority dice can do, including extra attacks...
Also while there is chance for Battle Master to tailor damage into crits a bit by choosing to use a superiority dice when they know They have a crit. There is a lot of variables to make this work that do not always actually like up in practice. The Objective Reality is that with 2 to eventually 3 times the Crit Range at their disposal, Crit Fishing Builds actually favor the Champion over the Battle Master because the extra Crits are going to make up and even potentially exceed the gap of the occasionally more and occasionally more controllable damage of the Battle Master.
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Battle master's versatility is build to build. You can't have three different builds at once but you can have any one of those three (providing they're non-magical).
Its edge is that if you can't find a subclass that fits your concept, battle master can be crafted to fit.
Chilling kinda vibe.
Agreed. That’s why I rather get Goading Attack instead of Menacing. Tasha’s also added lots of new useful maneuvers like Quick Toss (amazing when paired with a Net), Restraining Strike, Brace and etc.
Ambush is good too because going first in initiative is almost as good as an extra turn in combat.
My favourite is battlemaster. To me, it's essentially what the default fighter 'should' be. It has so much fun customisation, and each build can feel so different. When you combine it with the martial adept feat and the superior technique fighting style, you can completely double down on its playstyle.
Not counting purple dragon knight (seriously I don't even count it as anything more than a bad homebrew), my least favourite is eldritch knight. I played one and hated it. It's essentially a bad swordmage with everything which makes a swordmage fun removed. And the worst part of it is that people point at it to 'prove' we don't need a swordmage class.
Echo knight is good because you can use one clone as a distraction while you attack the enemy.
What are your criteria for a good swordmage?
Spellstrike type mechanics or spells. All EK has is two cantrips. dnd 3e duskblade, pathfinder 1e and 2e magus, and dnd 4e swordmage are all great for this.
Paladin, Ranger, and Hexblade all manage the mechanics a lot better with spells like searing smite and ensnaring strike. But all of them have a lot of thematic baggage to fight around. It's ironic that the arcane gish archtype is the one which was originally known for the mechanic, but in 5e is the one which is worst at it.
Honestly EK would be fine if it had a custom list with all the spells like searing smite and elemental weapon on. But it uses the wizard list, which is understandably not designed all around weapon attacks and melee combat.
Luckily EK does have access to all the fun abjuration spells and the sword cantrips though. Plus things like Shadow Blade.
It's less of a smiter then other gish types but really it gets a lot of other stuff that makes up for it.
Chilling kinda vibe.
I mean I'm sure that's a good playstyle for some. But when I was pointed to the class looking for something like the earlier edition swordmages, and instead found something nothing like them, I was disappointed.
And I hold a complete grudge against the subclass due to it being used by people as proof that we don't need a spellstriking arcane gish.
Fair enough. I think partly it will have been a deliberate choice to differentiate it from the smiting paladin.
Chilling kinda vibe.
I guess I just have to pray that we get an elemental/arcane themed paladin. Unlikely though as it goes against the paladins theme.
What Subclass Fighter is that???
Battlemaster is easily my favorite, as the mechanics are very good, and it's not hard to flavor into various character RP designs.
Least favorite is Champion.. yes, the bonuses arent bad mechanically, but they dont necessarily help to design a charactee. Critical hit range is so limiting in 5e, that this is really the only thing that stands out about the class for me.
Champion made sense with PHB but I think it warrants a second look at this point...along with PDK I would love for them to make some changes or variants for them.
For champion I would basically do Brute from UA for variant features.
For PDK I would give them the ability to use a reaction to aid an ally depending on what "Stance" they were in. You pick a stance at 3rd level and get more as you progress. You can swap stances with a BA.
Defensive Stance: As a reaction you can give a creature you see within 30ft a bonus to their AC against a single attack. This bonus equals your CHA modifier (minimum of 1).
Offensive Stance: As a reaction you can give a creature you see a bonus to a single attack roll. This bonus equals your CHA modifier (minimum of 1).
Mob Stance: As a reaction when an creature within 30ft is surrounded by 2 or more creatures you can command them to make an attack against one of the creatures. This attack gains a damage bonus equal to your CHA modifier.
Also to fit in somewhere: When you use your Second Wind ability, Allies within 30 ft of you receive healing equal to your CHA modifier (Minimum of 1).
I have saw some Champion builds using both Crusher and/or Slasher feat alongside Light Hammer and Handaxes, the Throwing Weapon + Two-Weapon fighting styles… a lot of different options and good effects without burning any temporary resource.
Two feats tho that's a lot just to make it as good as Battlemaster.
Except that Fighter has Extra ASI's to burn on a couple feats... And all kinds of battlemaster's are wasting them on at least 2 ASI's to make them what people really call good since people often demand that they have things like GWM and PAM and/or possibly others at all times.
But that puts them in the 1% for damage while the champion needs those feats to just pull even with a barebones Battlemaster.
This is not actually true. This is a bad perception based upon bad white rooming that does not actually make room for the real damage done over time. Everybody does the math over just one or two turns where the Battle Master can use all their techniques and superiority dice to increase damage with little downtime where such are not available. Over a stretched out period of time and many combat rounds. The Champion even on average does at least as much damage as the Battlemaster fighter.
Also while there is chance for Battle Master to tailor damage into crits a bit by choosing to use a superiority dice when they know They have a crit. There is a lot of variables to make this work that do not always actually like up in practice. The Objective Reality is that with 2 to eventually 3 times the Crit Range at their disposal, Crit Fishing Builds actually favor the Champion over the Battle Master because the extra Crits are going to make up and even potentially exceed the gap of the occasionally more and occasionally more controllable damage of the Battle Master.
Nah the math I've seen takes into account having 2 short rest a day and having 3-5 rounds of combat with 1-2 encounters between rests.
I won't dive into it as it's a completely separate discussion but I'm very comfortable saying that unless you have 6-8 combats a day and no short rest that's the only way the champion pulls ahead... And even that's just comparing the base class with ASI going to ability scores and not feats.
If you include feats BM pulls ahead really easily with the help of the damage feats and precision attack.
That's really besides the point as champion is mostly bad to me because it's just so terribly boring.