Monk has been one of my favorite classes ever since 1E AD&D, but I have yet had the opportunity to play one in 5E. Most likely it will be my next character, if my current one dies, or we finish the current campaign and start another one.
Reading up on the Monk, on the DDB forums and other places, has made me realize that there can be some good ways and some bad ways to play, when it comes to tactics and Ki resource management. I thought it would be nice to have a discussion on what players think are the best ways to play a Monk. Of course, it will vary greatly between play styles and on Subclasses chosen. I think this would be beneficial to players new to the Monk, and maybe some more experienced players.
Here are a few things I would like to bring up for discussion, in regards to tactics and Ki Resource Management.
Monk Level 2
To Flurry of Blows (FoB), or not to Flurry of Blows
FoB costs 1 Ki and you can use it after you take the attack action.
When should you use FoB?
When should you not use FoB?
Is it a Trap (as I’ve read in several places)?
Should you use it at all at low levels?
Some subclasses rely on FoB for their subclass abilities, others do not. Do you think this is good game design or bad game design?
Ways of Shadow, Astral Self, Four Elements, Kensei, and Long Death have no subclass features that rely on FoB. But:
Mercy: Their Level 3 ability Hand of Healing can (but not necessary) be used as part of FoB. Level 6 you can end 1 condition using Hand of Healing (see level 3). And their Level 11 ability is all about FoB.
Drunken Master: Your Level 3 and Level 17 Capstone abilities rely solely on FoB.
Open Hand: Level 3 ability is only used on FoB.
Sun Soul: Radiant Sun Bolt can be used as a ranged version of FoB so the same questions stand.
Patient Defense (PD) and Step of the Wind (SotW)
Are these preferable to FoB?
To the first 4 questions, under Flurry of Blows, how would you answer?
What tips and tactics make good use of these features?
Monk Level 5
Stunning Strike (SS)
Many people love this ability, others see it useful in certain situations, some a Ki point sinkhole. How would you answer the first 4 questions under Flurry of Blows as it relates to Stunning Strike. Is using your Ki to try and constantly Stun Lock an opponent worth it? Or are you better off doing something else?
Of course, all of this will be dependent on the situation, what enemy you are fighting, etc..
Sorry if this is a bit long. I don’t expect anyone to answer all the questions, but if you have some thoughts or insights into one or two from your experiences playing a Monk, I would love to hear it. And maybe others can find it helpful as well.
I think it really depends on the situation and how many ki points the monk has. If it looks like the party may have a chance at a short rest, and the FoB might reduce the length of the fight, then I'd use the FoB. If the fight may be a long drawn out slugfest, I might choose to save the ki points for patient defense (or if the monk enters the battle already wounded).
For step of the wind, my decision to use it will depend on the make up of the party. If you have a true tank in your battle that attracts a lot of attention, a hit and run tactic using step of the wind could be very advantageous for the party. The current adventure I have a monk in consists of three bards, a cleric and my monk. I'm less likely to use hit and run tactics with this group because one of the stronger melee options.
For stunning strike, it would depend on who the opponent is. If you have an opponent with a low constitution, then, I'd definitely use stunning strike. But, against an opponent with a high constitution, I would be more likely to expend the ki points on other actions.
So, to answer your questions, it would really depend on how I view the situation.
As an open hand If you are only in melee with one creature you are better off using FOB rather than SOTW as if you hit with eitger attack you can stop them taking reactions and move away safely.
As you progress in levels you can be more liberal with ki. You do not have many more round of combat per rest but you have much more ki. The exception to this is getting features that use multiple ki.
One of my tactics at high level against a creature with legendary resistances is to use the first action of quivering palm early on but not not release it until they are out of resistances. Either this reduces them to two legendary resistances allowing your stunning strikes or the wizards spells to hit home or they use their resistances early and risk a save or die con save.
Open hand and drunken master both have a way in which FoB emulates the effects of SotW so for those SotW seems pretty bad.
For Mercy, i would always prefer to use hand of harm over FoB for damage purposes except when you want to use FoB in order to apply hand of mercy. This because FoB allows you to make one additional attack that can potentially deal 1dM + Dex (dM = martial die) while hand of harm guarantees to increase the damage of a hit that already happened by 1dM + Wis. So maybe you lose 1 damage but you get a guaranteed damage instead of potential damage. At level 6 this discrepancy grows with hand of harm applying poison. At level 11 FoB obvisoubly becomes the better choice. Since this monk, unlike the others, has no built in disengage option and doesn't have any ranged options either, i wouldn't rule out using SotW or PD here. This also makes it a prime candidate for the mobile feat.
Sunsoul, being a ranged class, seems to rely less on PD and SotW because they want to be further back anyway, as well as not being close enough to apply stunning blow so here it seems like you would most likely use ki for the subclass features.
Personally, I've found BA Dodge and BA Dash to be really useful. Otherwise I tend to conserve the ki at lower levels (though I've only played Four Elements, so I need the ki for elemental disciplines). Monks, given that their ranged options aren't great, can really benefit from BA Dash to get into a fight. Additionally, if you are faced with more than one incoming attack likely, BA Dodge is going to be worth more than one additional 1d4+DEX attack (if you want to go with attacking, best to simply use your Martial Arts bonus attack and conserve ki for Dodge, Disengage, or Dash).
I haven't played into higher tiers, but FOB seems like a good bet once you have better damage and more ki to spam Stunning Strike. Even a good CON save is going to be unlikely to succeed four saves in a row (even 80% to succeed a single save drops to 41% to succeed four in a row -- though this is predicated on hitting all four attacks).
Let's start with stunning Strike. Since in some ways it's the most universal ability. How much of a Ki sink and how useful it is depends on the monk and the player (much like lots of things about the monk). If your trying to keep that high Con BBEG in place with it. Your going to use up a lot of Ki very quickly. There may be other things that you could be doing with that Ki that may or may not help more. But people are usually willing to overlook it because they see it as high value, Even though they might hold such things against other abilities for basically the same reasons they are willing to simply overlook for Stunning Strike. But I have seen successful monks that actually rarely use Stunning Strike because they recognize that they have low DC, or they tend to fight enemies it doesn't work well against, and they realize it may actually take multiple ki and multiple uses to make it work.
On To Flurry of Blows. Flurry of Blows is only a trap in the way that many things about monk can be a trap. The idea that there is a set of abilities that you can just use it every turn and it basically always be the optimal choice and thus the right thing to do. FoB's low cost makes it easier to use the higher the level you get for more damage when you don't have other things your doing with your FoB and your not worried about the amount of Ki you have for other abilities. It's basically your offensive Ki+BA choice compared to your defensive and movement base choices and you need to judge each round which one of them if any are right for your turn and your combat. You can't rely on just one endlessly and expect superior results. You need to evaluate each turn which might be the most useful or even possibly not using any of them. One thing to note however is that some abilities may be kind of the subclass equivalent of this ability which means you might not use this one in favor of those but with their own trade offs. While other subclasses will add something to Flurry of Blows rather than having a tradable equivalent. A couple of trade subclass powers might be usable with Flurry in some way or in replace of it as you level up but until you have a comfortable amount of Ki it may not be best to always mix them if they can be. Hands of Harm is an example of this type of ability.
Patient Defense and Step of the Wind are the other two corners of Ki+BA triangle along with the Flurry of Blows for every monk. They are only traps if we make them traps or if we are so rigid as to force one of them to be better than the others rather than recognizing the usage of each. one of the three if not two of them tend to be labeled traps by some players because they blindly rely on one and it doesn't work in their situation. These are abilities you use when you want to enhance your movement or you have reason to stay where you are and fend off blows temporarily, particularly more than one attack. it's going to depend on the battle as to exactly when each is most useful to you based upon where you, Where your party is, and where the enemy is.
Thank you, all, for your responses. It’s good to hear other people’s perspective on the matter.
There’s so many different options for the monk it can be easy to fall into a habit of doing only one or two things. Or the opposite and either spread yourself, and your Ki, too thin or suffer from indecision and slow down the game and hoard your Ki.
Not quite just the run in and beat things kind of character.
My perspective is skewed by the particulars of my character and party but here is my experience.
I found Flurry of Blows to be more effective when I hit level 5 because the combination of the extra attack and the martial arts die becoming a d6 meant I was dealing a lot more damage and more likely to actually kill what I was fighting, removing it as a threat. As I've continued advancing (level 7 now) it does seem to be decreasing in effectiveness as the hp of our enemies has outpaced my damage; given that the martial arts die won't be going up again for a while I may continue to use Flurry of Blows less often in the near future. Having said that, I am playing an Open Hand monk so I need to use Flurry of Blows to use most of my fun tricks.
I have only used Step of the Wind a handful of times, either to escape from enemies that refused to die (Zombies) or close the distance against a particularly dangerous ranged attacker. Patient Defense has become my go-to move lately because Flurry of Blows often won't finish off the enemies I'm engaged with but with Disadvantage I am very difficult to hit. Assuming I can spare the Ki I can still get two attacks in and be very hard to hit, I would say the majority of my Ki is probably spent on this ability. I will say using Dodge most turns does sometimes give a false sense of security, suddenly having to make a non-Dexterity saving throw when a spellcaster sends something nasty your way is a reminder that you aren't quite as safe as you think.
Stunning Strike I save for particularly nasty targets or if there are multiple strong enemies I will use it to take one out of the combat for two turns while we deal with the other one. One of my party members is a Divination Wizard so my Stunning Strikes very rarely fail, most of the time there isn't even a roll. I understand that isn't the case for most people so my perception of the effectiveness of Stunning Strike may be skewed. As is I probably only do it once, maybe twice, a session and the chance of wasting the Ki is very minimal.
As an Open Hand Monk who's just reached 7, I have found Stunning Strike to be quite situational. We have a Fighter and a Barbarian as tanks, so I don't need to worry a lot about being targeted, I will frequently pop in for my pair of attacks, FoB for another 2 strikes, then move 10-20 feet away, to give the foes only 2, much better suited for thumping, targets in immediate range.
In the case of a dangerous foe, who we really don't want doing a lot, Stunning Strike comes in. Yes, my DC is lower than I'd like (going up by at least 1 by level 8) I will burn a pair of Ki on my attacks if needed to try and land it. It CAN be game changing if you can land it at the right time. Our DM spent a few minutes looking for a method to BREAK the stunned condition one evening and didn't come up with anything. Legendary stuff can ensure a passed check, but if they've burned them, or prefer to chance it, stunning a super nasty can be a huge help in a tough fight.
Rarely do I use or need Step or Patient, in my group and our combat situations. If I need to get out of range, most times having started combat in melee range, I can FoB, disallow reaction (only option that doesn't cost me an extra Ki as well) and simply move my 45 feet of normal movement, which puts me outside of MOST enemies movement range. Next round I can move in on a chosen enemy most times (pick one that won't likely survive this round if possible) and attack again.
I think you'll find the group makeup has a pretty big impact on how and when you use your Ki. Some group dynamics you might need to have a Dodge stance set often, or use the bonus Dash to cover some distance, while others you might be most helpful in the fight if you play stun machine. One funny fight, I rolled top initiative and stunned both foes standing against us, giving the Fighter, Barbarian and Druid all free, at advantage shots to open the encounter. Managed to stun one again on the next round, which ended him and made his companion easy meat. If not for the stuns, they could have put out a good amount of hurt (and I believe some effects to further hinder us) but a couple lucky rolls trivialized it.
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One thing to remember about 4Elements with Tasha’s:
2 Ki gets you 3d10 damage with Fist of Unbroken Air/Water Whip, possibly prone, AND Ki-fuelled strike. That’s a very efficient combination because if the save is failed, that Ki-fuelled strike will also be at advantage.
Also, at 3 Ki you can Clench of the North Wind with Ki-Fuelled strike and you’re guaranteeing a critical hit if they fail the save, which is somewhat different from the stun from Stunning Strike. Also much more helpful for your allies.
Also, at 3 Ki you can Clench of the North Wind with Ki-Fuelled strike and you’re guaranteeing a critical hit if they fail the save, which is somewhat different from the stun from Stunning Strike. Also much more helpful for your allies.
That is why it costs 3 times the ki, though it also depends on the turn order. With hold person they get a chance to save when you hiyt them and another at the end of their turn, with stunning strike they don't get another save after ther turn but adter your turn they cease to be stunned. Lets assume you succeed on your initial stun / clench of the north wind and the monster has a 50% chance of suceeding on either save:
If the monster is immediately after you with KotNW he misses his turn and there is a 50% chance he is paralized until the end of his next turn and a 50% chance he is not paralyzed at all on your friends turns
If the monster is immediately before your turn you all your friends will be able to pummel his paralyzed body before he gets his second save but you will only be able ot attack him while paralyzed if he fails twice
The power between the two depends also on whether the DM allows stunning strikes on stunned creatures to extend the stun. I don't see anywhere in the rules that says you can not stunning strike a stunned creature and doing so clearly says should extend the stun but I know a lot of DMs house rule that you can not.
Stunning strike is an absolute must against glass cannons (e.g. Archmage, Cloaker, Mindflayer) they are easy to stun (and if they do save just try again) and call be killed in a round or so and you really want those guys to forego their action.
Also, at 3 Ki you can Clench of the North Wind with Ki-Fuelled strike and you’re guaranteeing a critical hit if they fail the save, which is somewhat different from the stun from Stunning Strike. Also much more helpful for your allies.
That is why it costs 3 times the ki, though it also depends on the turn order. With hold person they get a chance to save when you hiyt them and another at the end of their turn, with stunning strike they don't get another save after ther turn but adter your turn they cease to be stunned. Lets assume you succeed on your initial stun / clench of the north wind and the monster has a 50% chance of suceeding on either save:
If the monster is immediately after you with KotNW he misses his turn and there is a 50% chance he is paralized until the end of his next turn and a 50% chance he is not paralyzed at all on your friends turns
If the monster is immediately before your turn you all your friends will be able to pummel his paralyzed body before he gets his second save but you will only be able ot attack him while paralyzed if he fails twice
The power between the two depends also on whether the DM allows stunning strikes on stunned creatures to extend the stun. I don't see anywhere in the rules that says you can not stunning strike a stunned creature and doing so clearly says should extend the stun but I know a lot of DMs house rule that you can not.
Stunning strike is an absolute must against glass cannons (e.g. Archmage, Cloaker, Mindflayer) they are easy to stun (and if they do save just try again) and call be killed in a round or so and you really want those guys to forego their action.
Your actually incorrect on one important point. There is no save to break free when you get hit while under Hold Person. The only time they make their save is at the end of their turn. There are tactics you can do to change when your spell goes off in the order to give your friends and you more of a chance to hit. And the Truth is that often Hold Person is more than 50% chance. Each individual save is actually a much higher chance on characters actually built towards building spells. A better way to think about it is that if there is something like say a 65% chance of Hold Person affecting them. That means 65 times out of a 100 when they roll that dice they are going to fail that save. The next time they roll that save is going to be another one of those possible 65 times out of 100. They are only arguing about the likely-hood of a singular kind of event of multiple successes happening within those 100 rolls when they talk about the chance decreasing to this amount and then some other amount. But The Reality of the numbers is still that 65 times out of 100 they are going to fail and potential save failures are going to be distributed several times throughout that 100. You actually have pretty good odds that you can have a person held in place for 2 turns in a row because that is going to be a situation that comes up a number of times as an option. A lot rarer is actually going to be 2 failures in a row. And it's possible to get a percentage chance per roll under proper circumstances as high as 75% as level 6. (A DC 15 vs a Wis Modifier of +0).
Also. Your Contradicting something that Brewsky actually pointed out to you. That with Ki Fueled strike you can still get an attack in against the target which his statement is entirely true. So it is possible to get your own damage in before their second save. Also if you picked your target well and you built your monk to strengthen your saves You still have pretty good odds that they will fail that second save and you'll be able to deal damage off that paralyze effect for a full turn. Stunning Strike does not give this increased Damage to Anybody let alone the monk themselves even if it's timing for how it lasts throughout a round is different. Giving increased damage to all of your team-mates either through the way the turn order is structured or through tactical usage of your action economy can be far more valuable than the monk itself being able to hit while the person is paralyzed even if your not using Tasha's and thus couldn't deal damage on the same turn that you inflicted Hold person on them.
50% or 65% depends on your build and play style (and rolled stats if you do that). Between level 9 and 12 you have proficiency +4 and have had 2 ASI/Feats, assuming you use If you go point buy and start 16 Dex 16 Wis, you can have +5 Wis but most monks will max dex first, lets take the middle ground and you go to 18 in each giving asave DC of 16. Creatures with a wis save of +2 would fail 65% of the time. Unless you are going to use it on the MOBs (which I would regard a waste) you are being reasonably fussy limitting its use to only those creatures with wis of +2 or lower. There is also the question of how well your character can estimate the wisdom of a creature it is fighting.
My main point however is I think you misunderstood what I was saying about turn order. The point I was making was that with hold person the bad buy gets a save at the end of each of his turns. While this can be a good thing asa single use can last multiple rounds it can also be a bad thing if the enemies turn is immediately after yours. Let's assume a 5 person party against a single bad guy and see what happens assuming he fails the initial save.
Case 1: Using CotNW, bad guy fails save on his turn
Monk: Casts hold person using CotNW, bad guy fails and is paralyzed. Depending whether your table uses the options ki-fueld attack feature you may or may not be allowed to do a single attack as a bonus action
Bad Guy: Paralyzed, make a wis save at the end of his turn fails and remains paralyzed
Barbarian: Lays into the bad guy, attacks are at advantage and any hit is a crit
Wizard: Doesn't want to get within 5ft of the bad guy so attacks from range he probably will either use an attack roll spell at advantage (but no crit) or cast something with a dex or str save that auto fails
(ranged) Rogue: May be able rush in a draw dagger for an auto crit but might need ot stay a safe distance away in case the bad guy wakes up. Whatever he does attacks are at advantage
Monk: Lays into the bad guy, attacks are at advantage and any hit is a crit (no need to cast hold person again)
Bad guy: gets another save
Case 2: Using CotNW, bad guy makes save on his turn
Monk: Casts hold person using CotNW, bad guy fails and is paralyzed. Depending whether your table uses the options ki-fueld attack feature you may or may not be allowed to do a single attack as a bonus action
Bad Guy: Paralyzed, make a wis save at the end of his turn suceeds
Barbarian: Lays into the bad guy, attacks are not at advantage (unless reckless or something)
Wizard: Normal attack
(ranged) Rogue: Normal attack
Monk: Can choose whether to attack or burn 3 more ki casting hold person, if he attacks of if the CotNW fails the bad guty gets to move next.
Case 3: Using Stunning strike,
Monk: Attacks the bad guy, he can only attempt stunning strike if he hits, but if the save is made he can make another attept if he hits again, can use FoB to increase attacks
Bad Guy: Stunned,
Barbarian: Lays into the bad guy, attacks are at advantage (but not auto crit)
Wizard: Doesn't want to get within 5ft of the bad guy so attacks from range he probably will either use an attack roll spell at advantage (but no crit) or cast something with a dex or str save that auto fails
(ranged) Rogue: Attack as advantage
Monk: Attacks the bad guy with advantage, if he hits he can use ki to attempt to prolong the stun
Advantages of CotNW
Imposes the paralyzed condition, which is enables more damage from attacks from melee attacks compared ot stunned
Has the potential of lasting multiple rounds
Requires a wis save which can mean a higher chance of success
Does not require a hit to be attempted
Advantages of Stunning strike
Only uses 1 ki
Can be used on any creature, not just humanoids
It does not reduce the number of attacks you can make ion your turn (CotNW reduces it from 3, or 4 if you use a ki point to either 0 or 1 depending on a optional rule)
Will last until the end of your next turn
If creature succeeds on the save you can often try again on the same turn
Overall as a 4 element monk I would find the instances where CotNW to be better than stunning strike (high AC, high con, low wis humanoid with a high enough CR to be worth burning 3ki, in a party with several melee party members) to be few and far between.
Many 4 elements monks would actually be served to do Wis Primary and Dex only to keep it somewhat competetive. This makes an 18 wis easy to hit by level 6 combined with a +3 Proficiency. So I'm not sure why your bringing up level 9 to 12 specificially. Also Most other monks don't have access to hold person so it doesn't matter how most Monks would build.
I also mentioned a +2 as a common example because many enemies are actually in the +2 range for Wisdom Modifiers with some exceptions (most notably spell caster mimicing monster statblocks). That was my reason for bringing it up and stating the DC and the Average number that I did.
Turn order is can be manipulated. Which you've ignored in your "cases". Which is something that I made minor mention of but should be kept in mind for any and all people trying to use turn order as their biggest excuse why it doesn't work. Readying an Action is a thing. which would allow you to cast the spell after the enemies turn if you found yourself in a position where it goes right after you. Have your readied action set to go off when the next person in your party after them takes their turn for example. Your cases are also convenient examples of interestingly imbalanced parties that are arguably designed to take less advantage of the paralyzed condition. It's just as easy that the rogue is a melee rogue using something like a rapier and takes great advantage of the automatic Crit which is a great boost to their damage on their attack. Or that you have a cleric in that party that choose to get in close while they have the chance to apply their affects and an increase to their melee damage. Or a Paladin, Or certain kinds of Melee druids. Your over specificity has a lot of holes to create the situations that your describing.
Your Ability to find usefulness in the ability is not a problem with the ability. Just because you can only find limited usefulness of it does not mean that it does not have use.
Also. Constitution Bonuses tend to be a bit higher. Specially on many kinds of targets that you might want to use them on such as BBEG melee types getting into and beating on your party. Which the 4 elements monk that is built for Wisdom is still going to have a better chance playing smart and landing their Stunning strike instead when they hit through the armor. where as the Dex focused monk is going to likely have a much lower DC and have to get multiple hits through and potentially spend multiple ki to have the same chance of effectively stunning the target. And they both can target those pesky mages with stunning strike but again the 4 elements monk with wisdom in mind is going to spend less Ki doing it. But makes their 3 Ki not the wasted expenditure your white rooming it to be in practice by a smart player giving actual tactics and the situation of the battlefield their full thought.
Humanoid enemies are surprisingly common in a lot of campaigns. Your going to run into various versions of them in all levels of play assuming your not in a campaign aimed mostly at another creature type in particular such as dragons, demons, or undead...Some of which are naturally immune to being stunned anyway.
I choose 9-12 because you have has 2 ASIs at that point and it is debatable whether a 4 elements monk should prioritise dex or wis, higher DC is nice but (I think) every use of ki that does not also involve an attack uses at least 2 ki so you will need to do a lot more attacks than using elemental disciplines.
I was thinking 2 melee attackers and two ranged attackers was reasonably balanced, the party might have been without a healer but that doesn't really matter here, I also didn't include an archer fighter or a cleric that casts spells from ranged (which is how I have played all my clerics).
I take your point about readies actions but they are not without disadvantage, you only ready your action or movement, not both and not a bonus action,. In the example I gave the rogue can either ready a ranged attack or move into melee range and ready a melee attack (and hope the bad guy doesn't make his save).
I agree humanoids are common in many campaigns but even I would be surprised if any campaigns have more than say half the enemies as humanoid. Actually until you get to very high CRs very little is immune to stun. No Dragons are, only 2 demons both of which have a CR over 20, there are a few (not many) undead but the only ones with CR less than 15 are Revenant and Knight of the Order from CoS. There a few others of a CR you are likely to get tiers 1-3 mostly Swarms of beasts. The Duergar despot in MTF is immune to paralyzed but not to stun so that is another (very) minor advantage of stunning strike.
I accept Con bonus' ted to be a bit higher which is way I put it as the 3rd advange of CotNW
I choose 9-12 because you have has 2 ASIs at that point and it is debatable whether a 4 elements monk should prioritise dex or wis, higher DC is nice but (I think) every use of ki that does not also involve an attack uses at least 2 ki so you will need to do a lot more attacks than using elemental disciplines.
I was thinking 2 melee attackers and two ranged attackers was reasonably balanced, the party might have been without a healer but that doesn't really matter here, I also didn't include an archer fighter or a cleric that casts spells from ranged (which is how I have played all my clerics).
I take your point about readies actions but they are not without disadvantage, you only ready your action or movement, not both and not a bonus action,. In the example I gave the rogue can either ready a ranged attack or move into melee range and ready a melee attack (and hope the bad guy doesn't make his save).
I agree humanoids are common in many campaigns but even I would be surprised if any campaigns have more than say half the enemies as humanoid. Actually until you get to very high CRs very little is immune to stun. No Dragons are, only 2 demons both of which have a CR over 20, there are a few (not many) undead but the only ones with CR less than 15 are Revenant and Knight of the Order from CoS. There a few others of a CR you are likely to get tiers 1-3 mostly Swarms of beasts. The Duergar despot in MTF is immune to paralyzed but not to stun so that is another (very) minor advantage of stunning strike.
I accept Con bonus' ted to be a bit higher which is way I put it as the 3rd advange of CotNW
Unless your Specifically going just for Fangs of the Fire Snake and little other than support powers from 4e. Your best off going Wis as much as possible. this is because Except for Fangs of the Fire Snake all other attack Elemental Disciplines are Save Based. Everything from the basic ones like Water Whip and unbroken Air all the way up to Cone of Cold. Even at least one of the walls has Saves involved as well. So you actually do very well by your subclass to keep your DC as high as possible without sacrificing too much on your attacks. But your ability to attack physically is much more easily enhanced than your Save DC's are.
Even with some of them costing at least 2ki. We need to keep in mind that On top of Stunning Strike potentially costing just as much ki to use successfully in some circumstances for various reasons, if not more, there is also The fact that Ki returns on a short rest and several of the important basics or "go to" abilities people might focus on as a 4 elements monk actually deal damage as well as extra effects. For those not copying spells the Damage is only slightly lower but more variable than just hitting things with your fists but they have some of the greatest distances for moving opponents around the battlefield as an enhancement to the monks natural battlefield control ability to go with that sacrifice (as well as doing half damage even on a successful save). Being 20' to 30' in length when it comes to forced movement. it's still short range but when most forced movement abilities are more like 5' to 10' with a couple that are 15'. That is something to keep in mind as a good trade off. And they are something you can potentially do at least a few times a day depending on the short rests compared to other classes. Not quite as often as open Palm with their FoB effects. But Open Palm is a bit low on the cost anyway realistically but that's not something most are ever going to complain about.
As for the Readied action. Yes you can only ready 1 type of action. But you don't need the entire turn to take advantage of it. Specially if it's something that isn't going to wear off before your next turn. The cost is your reaction but your reaction isn't going to be guaranteed to be valuable that turn anyway. And when you ready that action You can still take your other actions in preparation of using that readied action. So you can move on your action. Potentially Patient Defense if your worried about being attacked though Hold Person has a long enough range that shouldn't be too much of an issue and they'd have to try to get away without knowing what your actually going to do with that readied action which is a bit meta even for smart enemies. So the reality is that you don't actually need your whole action to be moved in the turn order to take advantage of it. And this is something many people forget when it comes to Readied actions.
On the topic of Immunities. I purposely didn't bring them up. They are outside cases. Either because They do not apply for some reason (such as being a creature you cannot use the ability or spell on anyway) or They are too rare to consider as part of general play when it comes to the monk. The Deurgar Despot is actually a fine example in both directions really. It's interestingly immune to Paralyze while still being Humanoid. But at the same time it's con is +4. So it's not exactly a good target for stunning strike either. It also has a high Strength Save DC on two of it's 4 attacks and it's other two attacks in it's multiattack take advantage of being prone. So it's also not the best to stay to near such a creature for a Monk. Patient Defense or step of the wind to disengage to try to stay out of it's way are going to be far more valuable against such a threat. Though i know many will look at such a creature as "If I can just stun this one enemy then it's worth all of the Ki." But the problem with that is that it's the type of creature that your either not going to be facing alone but may also not be the only one on it's kind that is one the battlefield for you to have to deal with. It in some ways is the perfect example on how being adaptable is going to be important in how you treat each battle because if you meet one of these with other Deurgar or two of these things in the same combat group. It's going to heavily affect how you deal with that battle. You may be best served going after other targets to neutralize or try to beat down or to partner up with your casters with various aoe effects and trying to manipulate the Despots into particular locations to suffer effects and/or damage from what the casters do instead. Their rediculously low dex is a good thing to target water whip to move them around for the 4 elements monk and then use another ki to disengage and get out of their reach depending on how far you pulled them towards you, or to knock them down to make it harder for them to get out of a lasting AoE, or even target with your own fireballs since they are likely to fail the save and take full damage. Other monks like the Kensei or Astral Self might be best suited to pelt them from range or for the Drunken Master to rely on his ability to freely disengage or redirect attacks or other abilities as suitable.
I only spoke to Campaign focuses to entire kinds of monsters that might be valid. There are certain campaigns that do focus primarily on one kind of monster such as Draconic, Elemental, Undead, or Demonic/Fiendish creatures. But many are actually very open and you meet lots of kinds of many levels And your villains are as likely to be sinister nobles as they are to be an Undead Liche. So this comparison can be sometimes relevant to mention so that people can know if they are stepping into a blanket exception where one ability just might not be useful most of the time.
Unless your Specifically going just for Fangs of the Fire Snake and little other than support powers from 4e. Your best off going Wis as much as possible. this is because Except for Fangs of the Fire Snake all other attack Elemental Disciplines are Save Based. Everything from the basic ones like Water Whip and unbroken Air all the way up to Cone of Cold. Even at least one of the walls has Saves involved as well. So you actually do very well by your subclass to keep your DC as high as possible without sacrificing too much on your attacks. But your ability to attack physically is much more easily enhanced than your Save DC's are.
Even with some of them costing at least 2ki. We need to keep in mind that On top of Stunning Strike potentially costing just as much ki to use successfully in some circumstances for various reasons, if not more, there is also The fact that Ki returns on a short rest and several of the important basics or "go to" abilities people might focus on as a 4 elements monk actually deal damage as well as extra effects. For those not copying spells the Damage is only slightly lower but more variable than just hitting things with your fists but they have some of the greatest distances for moving opponents around the battlefield as an enhancement to the monks natural battlefield control ability to go with that sacrifice (as well as doing half damage even on a successful save). Being 20' to 30' in length when it comes to forced movement. it's still short range but when most forced movement abilities are more like 5' to 10' with a couple that are 15'. That is something to keep in mind as a good trade off. And they are something you can potentially do at least a few times a day depending on the short rests compared to other classes. Not quite as often as open Palm with their FoB effects. But Open Palm is a bit low on the cost anyway realistically but that's not something most are ever going to complain about.
We were talking about CotNW because it is easy to compare with stunning strike. I agree that other than fangs of the fire snake all the disciplines of use in comnbat use wis, thay also ALL require at least 2 ki, limiting yourself to "Basic" ones a level 6 monk will run out of ki in 3 rounds (assuming you are notusig any for SotW or patient defence etc). After that all you have is your main class features, basically hitting things using dex. At higher levels you might last another round or two but you will also be wanting to use disciplines that use 3 or more ki. I know you get your ki back after a short rest but typically you need to last a lot more than 3 rounds per short rest. So you need wis for your big hitter actions and dex for the majority of your actions hence the difficult choice whether to prioritise Dex or Wis.
As for the Readied action. Yes you can only ready 1 type of action. But you don't need the entire turn to take advantage of it. Specially if it's something that isn't going to wear off before your next turn. The cost is your reaction but your reaction isn't going to be guaranteed to be valuable that turn anyway. And when you ready that action You can still take your other actions in preparation of using that readied action. So you can move on your action. Potentially Patient Defense if your worried about being attacked though Hold Person has a long enough range that shouldn't be too much of an issue and they'd have to try to get away without knowing what your actually going to do with that readied action which is a bit meta even for smart enemies. So the reality is that you don't actually need your whole action to be moved in the turn order to take advantage of it. And this is something many people forget when it comes to Readied actions.
I agree with most of this wxcwptr there is a possibility of it "going away" if the readies action is a spell. If a caster readies a spell and gets hit behore the trigger he has t o make a con save or his spell will go away. Readied actions can be very useful but they are not "swapping around everyone's turns" which is hte point I was making.
On the topic of Immunities. I purposely didn't bring them up. They are outside cases. Either because They do not apply for some reason (such as being a creature you cannot use the ability or spell on anyway) or They are too rare to consider as part of general play when it comes to the monk. The Deurgar Despot is actually a fine example in both directions really. It's interestingly immune to Paralyze while still being Humanoid. But at the same time it's con is +4. So it's not exactly a good target for stunning strike either. It also has a high Strength Save DC on two of it's 4 attacks and it's other two attacks in it's multiattack take advantage of being prone. So it's also not the best to stay to near such a creature for a Monk. Patient Defense or step of the wind to disengage to try to stay out of it's way are going to be far more valuable against such a threat. Though i know many will look at such a creature as "If I can just stun this one enemy then it's worth all of the Ki." But the problem with that is that it's the type of creature that your either not going to be facing alone but may also not be the only one on it's kind that is one the battlefield for you to have to deal with. It in some ways is the perfect example on how being adaptable is going to be important in how you treat each battle because if you meet one of these with other Deurgar or two of these things in the same combat group. It's going to heavily affect how you deal with that battle. You may be best served going after other targets to neutralize or try to beat down or to partner up with your casters with various aoe effects and trying to manipulate the Despots into particular locations to suffer effects and/or damage from what the casters do instead. Their rediculously low dex is a good thing to target water whip to move them around for the 4 elements monk and then use another ki to disengage and get out of their reach depending on how far you pulled them towards you, or to knock them down to make it harder for them to get out of a lasting AoE, or even target with your own fireballs since they are likely to fail the save and take full damage. Other monks like the Kensei or Astral Self might be best suited to pelt them from range or for the Drunken Master to rely on his ability to freely disengage or redirect attacks or other abilities as suitable.
You did bring them up the last sentance of your previous post was "Some of which are naturally immune to being stunned anyway." That was the only reason I mentioned it.
I only spoke to Campaign focuses to entire kinds of monsters that might be valid. There are certain campaigns that do focus primarily on one kind of monster such as Draconic, Elemental, Undead, or Demonic/Fiendish creatures. But many are actually very open and you meet lots of kinds of many levels And your villains are as likely to be sinister nobles as they are to be an Undead Liche. So this comparison can be sometimes relevant to mention so that people can know if they are stepping into a blanket exception where one ability just might not be useful most of the time.
Agreed, you can stunning strike the sinister noble and the undead lich (along with the gready chromatic dragon, mind flayers, etc) but Cof NW only wirks on humanoids so it is much less flexible.
50% or 65% depends on your build and play style (and rolled stats if you do that). Between level 9 and 12 you have proficiency +4 and have had 2 ASI/Feats, assuming you use If you go point buy and start 16 Dex 16 Wis, you can have +5 Wis but most monks will max dex first, lets take the middle ground and you go to 18 in each giving asave DC of 16. Creatures with a wis save of +2 would fail 65% of the time. Unless you are going to use it on the MOBs (which I would regard a waste) you are being reasonably fussy limitting its use to only those creatures with wis of +2 or lower. There is also the question of how well your character can estimate the wisdom of a creature it is fighting.
My main point however is I think you misunderstood what I was saying about turn order. The point I was making was that with hold person the bad buy gets a save at the end of each of his turns. While this can be a good thing asa single use can last multiple rounds it can also be a bad thing if the enemies turn is immediately after yours. Let's assume a 5 person party against a single bad guy and see what happens assuming he fails the initial save.
Case 1: Using CotNW, bad guy fails save on his turn
Monk: Casts hold person using CotNW, bad guy fails and is paralyzed. Depending whether your table uses the options ki-fueld attack feature you may or may not be allowed to do a single attack as a bonus action
Bad Guy: Paralyzed, make a wis save at the end of his turn fails and remains paralyzed
Barbarian: Lays into the bad guy, attacks are at advantage and any hit is a crit
Wizard: Doesn't want to get within 5ft of the bad guy so attacks from range he probably will either use an attack roll spell at advantage (but no crit) or cast something with a dex or str save that auto fails
(ranged) Rogue: May be able rush in a draw dagger for an auto crit but might need ot stay a safe distance away in case the bad guy wakes up. Whatever he does attacks are at advantage
Monk: Lays into the bad guy, attacks are at advantage and any hit is a crit (no need to cast hold person again)
Bad guy: gets another save
Case 2: Using CotNW, bad guy makes save on his turn
Monk: Casts hold person using CotNW, bad guy fails and is paralyzed. Depending whether your table uses the options ki-fueld attack feature you may or may not be allowed to do a single attack as a bonus action
Bad Guy: Paralyzed, make a wis save at the end of his turn suceeds
Barbarian: Lays into the bad guy, attacks are not at advantage (unless reckless or something)
Wizard: Normal attack
(ranged) Rogue: Normal attack
Monk: Can choose whether to attack or burn 3 more ki casting hold person, if he attacks of if the CotNW fails the bad guty gets to move next.
Case 3: Using Stunning strike,
Monk: Attacks the bad guy, he can only attempt stunning strike if he hits, but if the save is made he can make another attept if he hits again, can use FoB to increase attacks
Bad Guy: Stunned,
Barbarian: Lays into the bad guy, attacks are at advantage (but not auto crit)
Wizard: Doesn't want to get within 5ft of the bad guy so attacks from range he probably will either use an attack roll spell at advantage (but no crit) or cast something with a dex or str save that auto fails
(ranged) Rogue: Attack as advantage
Monk: Attacks the bad guy with advantage, if he hits he can use ki to attempt to prolong the stun
Advantages of CotNW
Imposes the paralyzed condition, which is enables more damage from attacks from melee attacks compared ot stunned
Has the potential of lasting multiple rounds
Requires a wis save which can mean a higher chance of success
Does not require a hit to be attempted
Advantages of Stunning strike
Only uses 1 ki
Can be used on any creature, not just humanoids
It does not reduce the number of attacks you can make ion your turn (CotNW reduces it from 3, or 4 if you use a ki point to either 0 or 1 depending on a optional rule)
Will last until the end of your next turn
If creature succeeds on the save you can often try again on the same turn
Overall as a 4 element monk I would find the instances where CotNW to be better than stunning strike (high AC, high con, low wis humanoid with a high enough CR to be worth burning 3ki, in a party with several melee party members) to be few and far between.
Good breakdown - I'm certainly not saying it's better than Stunning Strike, just different. Different saves, and different effects from your allies. Also, you can upcast it and hit multiple targets.
Good breakdown - I'm certainly not saying it's better than Stunning Strike, just different. Different saves, and different effects from your allies. Also, you can upcast it and hit multiple targets.
This is true, but you're looking at 4 ki to upcast to two targets ... and with Stunning Strike you could potentially stun four targets with the same ki cost.
Unless your Specifically going just for Fangs of the Fire Snake and little other than support powers from 4e. Your best off going Wis as much as possible. this is because Except for Fangs of the Fire Snake all other attack Elemental Disciplines are Save Based. Everything from the basic ones like Water Whip and unbroken Air all the way up to Cone of Cold. Even at least one of the walls has Saves involved as well. So you actually do very well by your subclass to keep your DC as high as possible without sacrificing too much on your attacks. But your ability to attack physically is much more easily enhanced than your Save DC's are.
Even with some of them costing at least 2ki. We need to keep in mind that On top of Stunning Strike potentially costing just as much ki to use successfully in some circumstances for various reasons, if not more, there is also The fact that Ki returns on a short rest and several of the important basics or "go to" abilities people might focus on as a 4 elements monk actually deal damage as well as extra effects. For those not copying spells the Damage is only slightly lower but more variable than just hitting things with your fists but they have some of the greatest distances for moving opponents around the battlefield as an enhancement to the monks natural battlefield control ability to go with that sacrifice (as well as doing half damage even on a successful save). Being 20' to 30' in length when it comes to forced movement. it's still short range but when most forced movement abilities are more like 5' to 10' with a couple that are 15'. That is something to keep in mind as a good trade off. And they are something you can potentially do at least a few times a day depending on the short rests compared to other classes. Not quite as often as open Palm with their FoB effects. But Open Palm is a bit low on the cost anyway realistically but that's not something most are ever going to complain about.
We were talking about CotNW because it is easy to compare with stunning strike. I agree that other than fangs of the fire snake all the disciplines of use in comnbat use wis, thay also ALL require at least 2 ki, limiting yourself to "Basic" ones a level 6 monk will run out of ki in 3 rounds (assuming you are notusig any for SotW or patient defence etc). After that all you have is your main class features, basically hitting things using dex. At higher levels you might last another round or two but you will also be wanting to use disciplines that use 3 or more ki. I know you get your ki back after a short rest but typically you need to last a lot more than 3 rounds per short rest. So you need wis for your big hitter actions and dex for the majority of your actions hence the difficult choice whether to prioritise Dex or Wis.
As for the Readied action. Yes you can only ready 1 type of action. But you don't need the entire turn to take advantage of it. Specially if it's something that isn't going to wear off before your next turn. The cost is your reaction but your reaction isn't going to be guaranteed to be valuable that turn anyway. And when you ready that action You can still take your other actions in preparation of using that readied action. So you can move on your action. Potentially Patient Defense if your worried about being attacked though Hold Person has a long enough range that shouldn't be too much of an issue and they'd have to try to get away without knowing what your actually going to do with that readied action which is a bit meta even for smart enemies. So the reality is that you don't actually need your whole action to be moved in the turn order to take advantage of it. And this is something many people forget when it comes to Readied actions.
I agree with most of this wxcwptr there is a possibility of it "going away" if the readies action is a spell. If a caster readies a spell and gets hit behore the trigger he has t o make a con save or his spell will go away. Readied actions can be very useful but they are not "swapping around everyone's turns" which is hte point I was making.
On the topic of Immunities. I purposely didn't bring them up. They are outside cases. Either because They do not apply for some reason (such as being a creature you cannot use the ability or spell on anyway) or They are too rare to consider as part of general play when it comes to the monk. The Deurgar Despot is actually a fine example in both directions really. It's interestingly immune to Paralyze while still being Humanoid. But at the same time it's con is +4. So it's not exactly a good target for stunning strike either. It also has a high Strength Save DC on two of it's 4 attacks and it's other two attacks in it's multiattack take advantage of being prone. So it's also not the best to stay to near such a creature for a Monk. Patient Defense or step of the wind to disengage to try to stay out of it's way are going to be far more valuable against such a threat. Though i know many will look at such a creature as "If I can just stun this one enemy then it's worth all of the Ki." But the problem with that is that it's the type of creature that your either not going to be facing alone but may also not be the only one on it's kind that is one the battlefield for you to have to deal with. It in some ways is the perfect example on how being adaptable is going to be important in how you treat each battle because if you meet one of these with other Deurgar or two of these things in the same combat group. It's going to heavily affect how you deal with that battle. You may be best served going after other targets to neutralize or try to beat down or to partner up with your casters with various aoe effects and trying to manipulate the Despots into particular locations to suffer effects and/or damage from what the casters do instead. Their rediculously low dex is a good thing to target water whip to move them around for the 4 elements monk and then use another ki to disengage and get out of their reach depending on how far you pulled them towards you, or to knock them down to make it harder for them to get out of a lasting AoE, or even target with your own fireballs since they are likely to fail the save and take full damage. Other monks like the Kensei or Astral Self might be best suited to pelt them from range or for the Drunken Master to rely on his ability to freely disengage or redirect attacks or other abilities as suitable.
You did bring them up the last sentance of your previous post was "Some of which are naturally immune to being stunned anyway." That was the only reason I mentioned it.
I only spoke to Campaign focuses to entire kinds of monsters that might be valid. There are certain campaigns that do focus primarily on one kind of monster such as Draconic, Elemental, Undead, or Demonic/Fiendish creatures. But many are actually very open and you meet lots of kinds of many levels And your villains are as likely to be sinister nobles as they are to be an Undead Liche. So this comparison can be sometimes relevant to mention so that people can know if they are stepping into a blanket exception where one ability just might not be useful most of the time.
Agreed, you can stunning strike the sinister noble and the undead lich (along with the gready chromatic dragon, mind flayers, etc) but Cof NW only wirks on humanoids so it is much less flexible.
I am sorry if I used stun in my last sentence. I meant to say Paralyzed in that statement. More in meaning that even if it worked that it still wouldn't work for various reasons. Immunity being one of them but not the only or the biggest one. Just as a general example of lots of reasons that it wouldn't work and not some kind of major factor to decide between the two. I must have swapped things around in my head as I was posting things and didnt' catch it.
As for the Issue of Ki you bring up. It's just as easy for monks to blow all their ki in a few rounds anyway. If your going to bring up this criticism you have to level it equally. Many monk players have the problem that they seem to think that just because they have ki they need to spend it on all the rounds they can, and/or that they need to use it only on certain kinds of moves. This is never true. But Monks also build up Ki faster than almost any other resource and it becomes much easier to spend in larger and larger groups. It may be gone in 2 or 3 turns at low levels but the same issue of it being gone in 2 or 3 turns is just as true with a weak Save DC and having to attempt multiple times to stun a creature.
Just because that Chromatic dragon can be stunned. Or that Lich. It doesn't mean it's an effective use for it. This is falling into the same sunken cost fallacy that is used against the 4 elements monk but calling it acceptable. Yes they can be stunned but when it's taking 3 and 4 and 5 ki a turn to stun it. Your going to be out in just 3 or 4 turns without ever using a "high cost" move anyway but just quickly plinking your pool to death quickly in a lot of small cost moves (including potentially FoB to keep getting chances to Stun) that could be just as inneffective. yes Stun potentially works against more things but at the same time. It doesn't necessarily work enough on such things to actually be useful on more things. If the cost per turn is to high on one move then it should be equally considered too high for another move. if you are willing to accept such costs and play aruond them then you should be willing to do so in either case.
As for being out of Ki quickly. This is also not always the problem that it is made out to be. yes it does stop some of the flashier moves and potentially 1 extra attack a turn or certain defenses. But you weren't necessarily doing those things every turn anyway. And with the lowered need and easier access to attack bonus increases. You aren't penalized as much for having lowered Attack as you are lowered Save DC. People like to use high AC's to represent need for things like high attack stats. But the typical armor classes actually being faced are usually much lower than the numbers they pick, the numbers they pick often being arbitrary or being based entirely on PC's in the way they build them or guides they read build them most despite this not being a pvp centric game and the average enemy from the average statblock not following quite those same rules in their makeups. So it only becomes an issue with DM's that do a lot of alterations to their monsters for one reason or another or enjoy making full PC's for short time uses as NPC's. So when you put this all together. Not only is it easier to turn a +5 attack into a +6 or +7 attack. But the demands to Have it at +7 or better are a fair bit lower in comparison to Save DC's which are almost impossible to increase for Monks in other ways and Save DC's might be important to the style of play that they use to be reliably effective (and Reliable does not mean always despite many efforts to make it so). These are important distinctions to make when looking at them objectively.
So what we end up with is Stunning Strike costs a bit less ki for a single usage but often a decent bit of potential to take more than one use and in a turn to take effect when use practically. Uses a Save stat That makes a decently large portion of seemingly viable targets basically non-viable from an efficiency standpoint and affects a target only for a set amount of time in a turn without any recovery saves. But also comes with the issue that it is both attack and save dependant to work ultimately.
vs
Hold Person which costs a bit more Ki and is a bit less directly useful against certain types of monsters but still has potential use against what is the most common enemy type over the length of the average campaign with a different but actually much smaller group of seemingly non-viable targets due to other factors such as saves that attacks ki's off of a different Save from Stunning Strike. That has a potential for a greater condition effect and potentially much longer duration (though against properly chosen targets the truth is your probably looking about an average of 3 turns of actual effectiveness).
When you balance all of this out what you end up with is two companion moves that are useful in different situations and through various different reasons actually have somewhat similar flaws and and strengths while having some unique mechanics to each of their own situations. But many of the similarities are actually masked in the details sounding very different on the surface.
The thing that is often looked over in all of this and I've said more than once in these kinds of threads is that Just because monk has an ability and it's part of their class or subclass. That doesn't mean that you always need to be using it. There are a couple of Subclasses that lean heavily into the idea that you should. But the abilities and the combinations of abilities that you use should be based upon each combat you are in. Not based just upon the feature on your sheet. The idea that because you have it that you need make use of it all the time is the reason why a lot of people complain that their monks suck without ever considering things like the combinations of the abilities they were trying to use, the subclasses they are, and the conditions of the combats that they are in. The monk is an advanced class in many respects to get full use out of.
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Monk has been one of my favorite classes ever since 1E AD&D, but I have yet had the opportunity to play one in 5E. Most likely it will be my next character, if my current one dies, or we finish the current campaign and start another one.
Reading up on the Monk, on the DDB forums and other places, has made me realize that there can be some good ways and some bad ways to play, when it comes to tactics and Ki resource management. I thought it would be nice to have a discussion on what players think are the best ways to play a Monk. Of course, it will vary greatly between play styles and on Subclasses chosen. I think this would be beneficial to players new to the Monk, and maybe some more experienced players.
Here are a few things I would like to bring up for discussion, in regards to tactics and Ki Resource Management.
Monk Level 2
To Flurry of Blows (FoB), or not to Flurry of Blows
FoB costs 1 Ki and you can use it after you take the attack action.
Ways of Shadow, Astral Self, Four Elements, Kensei, and Long Death have no subclass features that rely on FoB. But:
Mercy: Their Level 3 ability Hand of Healing can (but not necessary) be used as part of FoB. Level 6 you can end 1 condition using Hand of Healing (see level 3). And their Level 11 ability is all about FoB.
Drunken Master: Your Level 3 and Level 17 Capstone abilities rely solely on FoB.
Open Hand: Level 3 ability is only used on FoB.
Sun Soul: Radiant Sun Bolt can be used as a ranged version of FoB so the same questions stand.
Patient Defense (PD) and Step of the Wind (SotW)
Monk Level 5
Stunning Strike (SS)
Many people love this ability, others see it useful in certain situations, some a Ki point sinkhole. How would you answer the first 4 questions under Flurry of Blows as it relates to Stunning Strike. Is using your Ki to try and constantly Stun Lock an opponent worth it? Or are you better off doing something else?
Of course, all of this will be dependent on the situation, what enemy you are fighting, etc..
Sorry if this is a bit long. I don’t expect anyone to answer all the questions, but if you have some thoughts or insights into one or two from your experiences playing a Monk, I would love to hear it. And maybe others can find it helpful as well.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
I think it really depends on the situation and how many ki points the monk has. If it looks like the party may have a chance at a short rest, and the FoB might reduce the length of the fight, then I'd use the FoB. If the fight may be a long drawn out slugfest, I might choose to save the ki points for patient defense (or if the monk enters the battle already wounded).
For step of the wind, my decision to use it will depend on the make up of the party. If you have a true tank in your battle that attracts a lot of attention, a hit and run tactic using step of the wind could be very advantageous for the party. The current adventure I have a monk in consists of three bards, a cleric and my monk. I'm less likely to use hit and run tactics with this group because one of the stronger melee options.
For stunning strike, it would depend on who the opponent is. If you have an opponent with a low constitution, then, I'd definitely use stunning strike. But, against an opponent with a high constitution, I would be more likely to expend the ki points on other actions.
So, to answer your questions, it would really depend on how I view the situation.
As a caveatI have only played open hand monk,
As an open hand If you are only in melee with one creature you are better off using FOB rather than SOTW as if you hit with eitger attack you can stop them taking reactions and move away safely.
As you progress in levels you can be more liberal with ki. You do not have many more round of combat per rest but you have much more ki. The exception to this is getting features that use multiple ki.
One of my tactics at high level against a creature with legendary resistances is to use the first action of quivering palm early on but not not release it until they are out of resistances. Either this reduces them to two legendary resistances allowing your stunning strikes or the wizards spells to hit home or they use their resistances early and risk a save or die con save.
Open hand and drunken master both have a way in which FoB emulates the effects of SotW so for those SotW seems pretty bad.
For Mercy, i would always prefer to use hand of harm over FoB for damage purposes except when you want to use FoB in order to apply hand of mercy. This because FoB allows you to make one additional attack that can potentially deal 1dM + Dex (dM = martial die) while hand of harm guarantees to increase the damage of a hit that already happened by 1dM + Wis. So maybe you lose 1 damage but you get a guaranteed damage instead of potential damage. At level 6 this discrepancy grows with hand of harm applying poison. At level 11 FoB obvisoubly becomes the better choice. Since this monk, unlike the others, has no built in disengage option and doesn't have any ranged options either, i wouldn't rule out using SotW or PD here. This also makes it a prime candidate for the mobile feat.
Sunsoul, being a ranged class, seems to rely less on PD and SotW because they want to be further back anyway, as well as not being close enough to apply stunning blow so here it seems like you would most likely use ki for the subclass features.
Personally, I've found BA Dodge and BA Dash to be really useful. Otherwise I tend to conserve the ki at lower levels (though I've only played Four Elements, so I need the ki for elemental disciplines). Monks, given that their ranged options aren't great, can really benefit from BA Dash to get into a fight. Additionally, if you are faced with more than one incoming attack likely, BA Dodge is going to be worth more than one additional 1d4+DEX attack (if you want to go with attacking, best to simply use your Martial Arts bonus attack and conserve ki for Dodge, Disengage, or Dash).
I haven't played into higher tiers, but FOB seems like a good bet once you have better damage and more ki to spam Stunning Strike. Even a good CON save is going to be unlikely to succeed four saves in a row (even 80% to succeed a single save drops to 41% to succeed four in a row -- though this is predicated on hitting all four attacks).
Let's start with stunning Strike. Since in some ways it's the most universal ability. How much of a Ki sink and how useful it is depends on the monk and the player (much like lots of things about the monk). If your trying to keep that high Con BBEG in place with it. Your going to use up a lot of Ki very quickly. There may be other things that you could be doing with that Ki that may or may not help more. But people are usually willing to overlook it because they see it as high value, Even though they might hold such things against other abilities for basically the same reasons they are willing to simply overlook for Stunning Strike. But I have seen successful monks that actually rarely use Stunning Strike because they recognize that they have low DC, or they tend to fight enemies it doesn't work well against, and they realize it may actually take multiple ki and multiple uses to make it work.
On To Flurry of Blows. Flurry of Blows is only a trap in the way that many things about monk can be a trap. The idea that there is a set of abilities that you can just use it every turn and it basically always be the optimal choice and thus the right thing to do. FoB's low cost makes it easier to use the higher the level you get for more damage when you don't have other things your doing with your FoB and your not worried about the amount of Ki you have for other abilities. It's basically your offensive Ki+BA choice compared to your defensive and movement base choices and you need to judge each round which one of them if any are right for your turn and your combat. You can't rely on just one endlessly and expect superior results. You need to evaluate each turn which might be the most useful or even possibly not using any of them. One thing to note however is that some abilities may be kind of the subclass equivalent of this ability which means you might not use this one in favor of those but with their own trade offs. While other subclasses will add something to Flurry of Blows rather than having a tradable equivalent. A couple of trade subclass powers might be usable with Flurry in some way or in replace of it as you level up but until you have a comfortable amount of Ki it may not be best to always mix them if they can be. Hands of Harm is an example of this type of ability.
Patient Defense and Step of the Wind are the other two corners of Ki+BA triangle along with the Flurry of Blows for every monk. They are only traps if we make them traps or if we are so rigid as to force one of them to be better than the others rather than recognizing the usage of each. one of the three if not two of them tend to be labeled traps by some players because they blindly rely on one and it doesn't work in their situation. These are abilities you use when you want to enhance your movement or you have reason to stay where you are and fend off blows temporarily, particularly more than one attack. it's going to depend on the battle as to exactly when each is most useful to you based upon where you, Where your party is, and where the enemy is.
Thank you, all, for your responses. It’s good to hear other people’s perspective on the matter.
There’s so many different options for the monk it can be easy to fall into a habit of doing only one or two things. Or the opposite and either spread yourself, and your Ki, too thin or suffer from indecision and slow down the game and hoard your Ki.
Not quite just the run in and beat things kind of character.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
My perspective is skewed by the particulars of my character and party but here is my experience.
I found Flurry of Blows to be more effective when I hit level 5 because the combination of the extra attack and the martial arts die becoming a d6 meant I was dealing a lot more damage and more likely to actually kill what I was fighting, removing it as a threat. As I've continued advancing (level 7 now) it does seem to be decreasing in effectiveness as the hp of our enemies has outpaced my damage; given that the martial arts die won't be going up again for a while I may continue to use Flurry of Blows less often in the near future. Having said that, I am playing an Open Hand monk so I need to use Flurry of Blows to use most of my fun tricks.
I have only used Step of the Wind a handful of times, either to escape from enemies that refused to die (Zombies) or close the distance against a particularly dangerous ranged attacker. Patient Defense has become my go-to move lately because Flurry of Blows often won't finish off the enemies I'm engaged with but with Disadvantage I am very difficult to hit. Assuming I can spare the Ki I can still get two attacks in and be very hard to hit, I would say the majority of my Ki is probably spent on this ability. I will say using Dodge most turns does sometimes give a false sense of security, suddenly having to make a non-Dexterity saving throw when a spellcaster sends something nasty your way is a reminder that you aren't quite as safe as you think.
Stunning Strike I save for particularly nasty targets or if there are multiple strong enemies I will use it to take one out of the combat for two turns while we deal with the other one. One of my party members is a Divination Wizard so my Stunning Strikes very rarely fail, most of the time there isn't even a roll. I understand that isn't the case for most people so my perception of the effectiveness of Stunning Strike may be skewed. As is I probably only do it once, maybe twice, a session and the chance of wasting the Ki is very minimal.
As an Open Hand Monk who's just reached 7, I have found Stunning Strike to be quite situational. We have a Fighter and a Barbarian as tanks, so I don't need to worry a lot about being targeted, I will frequently pop in for my pair of attacks, FoB for another 2 strikes, then move 10-20 feet away, to give the foes only 2, much better suited for thumping, targets in immediate range.
In the case of a dangerous foe, who we really don't want doing a lot, Stunning Strike comes in. Yes, my DC is lower than I'd like (going up by at least 1 by level 8) I will burn a pair of Ki on my attacks if needed to try and land it. It CAN be game changing if you can land it at the right time. Our DM spent a few minutes looking for a method to BREAK the stunned condition one evening and didn't come up with anything. Legendary stuff can ensure a passed check, but if they've burned them, or prefer to chance it, stunning a super nasty can be a huge help in a tough fight.
Rarely do I use or need Step or Patient, in my group and our combat situations. If I need to get out of range, most times having started combat in melee range, I can FoB, disallow reaction (only option that doesn't cost me an extra Ki as well) and simply move my 45 feet of normal movement, which puts me outside of MOST enemies movement range. Next round I can move in on a chosen enemy most times (pick one that won't likely survive this round if possible) and attack again.
I think you'll find the group makeup has a pretty big impact on how and when you use your Ki. Some group dynamics you might need to have a Dodge stance set often, or use the bonus Dash to cover some distance, while others you might be most helpful in the fight if you play stun machine. One funny fight, I rolled top initiative and stunned both foes standing against us, giving the Fighter, Barbarian and Druid all free, at advantage shots to open the encounter. Managed to stun one again on the next round, which ended him and made his companion easy meat. If not for the stuns, they could have put out a good amount of hurt (and I believe some effects to further hinder us) but a couple lucky rolls trivialized it.
Talk to your Players. Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
One thing to remember about 4Elements with Tasha’s:
2 Ki gets you 3d10 damage with Fist of Unbroken Air/Water Whip, possibly prone, AND Ki-fuelled strike. That’s a very efficient combination because if the save is failed, that Ki-fuelled strike will also be at advantage.
Also, at 3 Ki you can Clench of the North Wind with Ki-Fuelled strike and you’re guaranteeing a critical hit if they fail the save, which is somewhat different from the stun from Stunning Strike. Also much more helpful for your allies.
That is why it costs 3 times the ki, though it also depends on the turn order. With hold person they get a chance to save when you hiyt them and another at the end of their turn, with stunning strike they don't get another save after ther turn but adter your turn they cease to be stunned. Lets assume you succeed on your initial stun / clench of the north wind and the monster has a 50% chance of suceeding on either save:
If the monster is immediately after you with KotNW he misses his turn and there is a 50% chance he is paralized until the end of his next turn and a 50% chance he is not paralyzed at all on your friends turns
If the monster is immediately before your turn you all your friends will be able to pummel his paralyzed body before he gets his second save but you will only be able ot attack him while paralyzed if he fails twice
The power between the two depends also on whether the DM allows stunning strikes on stunned creatures to extend the stun. I don't see anywhere in the rules that says you can not stunning strike a stunned creature and doing so clearly says should extend the stun but I know a lot of DMs house rule that you can not.
Stunning strike is an absolute must against glass cannons (e.g. Archmage, Cloaker, Mindflayer) they are easy to stun (and if they do save just try again) and call be killed in a round or so and you really want those guys to forego their action.
Your actually incorrect on one important point. There is no save to break free when you get hit while under Hold Person. The only time they make their save is at the end of their turn. There are tactics you can do to change when your spell goes off in the order to give your friends and you more of a chance to hit. And the Truth is that often Hold Person is more than 50% chance. Each individual save is actually a much higher chance on characters actually built towards building spells. A better way to think about it is that if there is something like say a 65% chance of Hold Person affecting them. That means 65 times out of a 100 when they roll that dice they are going to fail that save. The next time they roll that save is going to be another one of those possible 65 times out of 100. They are only arguing about the likely-hood of a singular kind of event of multiple successes happening within those 100 rolls when they talk about the chance decreasing to this amount and then some other amount. But The Reality of the numbers is still that 65 times out of 100 they are going to fail and potential save failures are going to be distributed several times throughout that 100. You actually have pretty good odds that you can have a person held in place for 2 turns in a row because that is going to be a situation that comes up a number of times as an option. A lot rarer is actually going to be 2 failures in a row. And it's possible to get a percentage chance per roll under proper circumstances as high as 75% as level 6. (A DC 15 vs a Wis Modifier of +0).
Also. Your Contradicting something that Brewsky actually pointed out to you. That with Ki Fueled strike you can still get an attack in against the target which his statement is entirely true. So it is possible to get your own damage in before their second save. Also if you picked your target well and you built your monk to strengthen your saves You still have pretty good odds that they will fail that second save and you'll be able to deal damage off that paralyze effect for a full turn. Stunning Strike does not give this increased Damage to Anybody let alone the monk themselves even if it's timing for how it lasts throughout a round is different. Giving increased damage to all of your team-mates either through the way the turn order is structured or through tactical usage of your action economy can be far more valuable than the monk itself being able to hit while the person is paralyzed even if your not using Tasha's and thus couldn't deal damage on the same turn that you inflicted Hold person on them.
50% or 65% depends on your build and play style (and rolled stats if you do that). Between level 9 and 12 you have proficiency +4 and have had 2 ASI/Feats, assuming you use If you go point buy and start 16 Dex 16 Wis, you can have +5 Wis but most monks will max dex first, lets take the middle ground and you go to 18 in each giving asave DC of 16. Creatures with a wis save of +2 would fail 65% of the time. Unless you are going to use it on the MOBs (which I would regard a waste) you are being reasonably fussy limitting its use to only those creatures with wis of +2 or lower. There is also the question of how well your character can estimate the wisdom of a creature it is fighting.
My main point however is I think you misunderstood what I was saying about turn order. The point I was making was that with hold person the bad buy gets a save at the end of each of his turns. While this can be a good thing asa single use can last multiple rounds it can also be a bad thing if the enemies turn is immediately after yours. Let's assume a 5 person party against a single bad guy and see what happens assuming he fails the initial save.
Case 1: Using CotNW, bad guy fails save on his turn
Case 2: Using CotNW, bad guy makes save on his turn
Case 3: Using Stunning strike,
Advantages of CotNW
Advantages of Stunning strike
Overall as a 4 element monk I would find the instances where CotNW to be better than stunning strike (high AC, high con, low wis humanoid with a high enough CR to be worth burning 3ki, in a party with several melee party members) to be few and far between.
Many 4 elements monks would actually be served to do Wis Primary and Dex only to keep it somewhat competetive. This makes an 18 wis easy to hit by level 6 combined with a +3 Proficiency. So I'm not sure why your bringing up level 9 to 12 specificially. Also Most other monks don't have access to hold person so it doesn't matter how most Monks would build.
I also mentioned a +2 as a common example because many enemies are actually in the +2 range for Wisdom Modifiers with some exceptions (most notably spell caster mimicing monster statblocks). That was my reason for bringing it up and stating the DC and the Average number that I did.
Turn order is can be manipulated. Which you've ignored in your "cases". Which is something that I made minor mention of but should be kept in mind for any and all people trying to use turn order as their biggest excuse why it doesn't work. Readying an Action is a thing. which would allow you to cast the spell after the enemies turn if you found yourself in a position where it goes right after you. Have your readied action set to go off when the next person in your party after them takes their turn for example. Your cases are also convenient examples of interestingly imbalanced parties that are arguably designed to take less advantage of the paralyzed condition. It's just as easy that the rogue is a melee rogue using something like a rapier and takes great advantage of the automatic Crit which is a great boost to their damage on their attack. Or that you have a cleric in that party that choose to get in close while they have the chance to apply their affects and an increase to their melee damage. Or a Paladin, Or certain kinds of Melee druids. Your over specificity has a lot of holes to create the situations that your describing.
Your Ability to find usefulness in the ability is not a problem with the ability. Just because you can only find limited usefulness of it does not mean that it does not have use.
Also. Constitution Bonuses tend to be a bit higher. Specially on many kinds of targets that you might want to use them on such as BBEG melee types getting into and beating on your party. Which the 4 elements monk that is built for Wisdom is still going to have a better chance playing smart and landing their Stunning strike instead when they hit through the armor. where as the Dex focused monk is going to likely have a much lower DC and have to get multiple hits through and potentially spend multiple ki to have the same chance of effectively stunning the target. And they both can target those pesky mages with stunning strike but again the 4 elements monk with wisdom in mind is going to spend less Ki doing it. But makes their 3 Ki not the wasted expenditure your white rooming it to be in practice by a smart player giving actual tactics and the situation of the battlefield their full thought.
Humanoid enemies are surprisingly common in a lot of campaigns. Your going to run into various versions of them in all levels of play assuming your not in a campaign aimed mostly at another creature type in particular such as dragons, demons, or undead...Some of which are naturally immune to being stunned anyway.
I choose 9-12 because you have has 2 ASIs at that point and it is debatable whether a 4 elements monk should prioritise dex or wis, higher DC is nice but (I think) every use of ki that does not also involve an attack uses at least 2 ki so you will need to do a lot more attacks than using elemental disciplines.
I was thinking 2 melee attackers and two ranged attackers was reasonably balanced, the party might have been without a healer but that doesn't really matter here, I also didn't include an archer fighter or a cleric that casts spells from ranged (which is how I have played all my clerics).
I take your point about readies actions but they are not without disadvantage, you only ready your action or movement, not both and not a bonus action,. In the example I gave the rogue can either ready a ranged attack or move into melee range and ready a melee attack (and hope the bad guy doesn't make his save).
I agree humanoids are common in many campaigns but even I would be surprised if any campaigns have more than say half the enemies as humanoid. Actually until you get to very high CRs very little is immune to stun. No Dragons are, only 2 demons both of which have a CR over 20, there are a few (not many) undead but the only ones with CR less than 15 are Revenant and Knight of the Order from CoS. There a few others of a CR you are likely to get tiers 1-3 mostly Swarms of beasts. The Duergar despot in MTF is immune to paralyzed but not to stun so that is another (very) minor advantage of stunning strike.
I accept Con bonus' ted to be a bit higher which is way I put it as the 3rd advange of CotNW
Unless your Specifically going just for Fangs of the Fire Snake and little other than support powers from 4e. Your best off going Wis as much as possible. this is because Except for Fangs of the Fire Snake all other attack Elemental Disciplines are Save Based. Everything from the basic ones like Water Whip and unbroken Air all the way up to Cone of Cold. Even at least one of the walls has Saves involved as well. So you actually do very well by your subclass to keep your DC as high as possible without sacrificing too much on your attacks. But your ability to attack physically is much more easily enhanced than your Save DC's are.
Even with some of them costing at least 2ki. We need to keep in mind that On top of Stunning Strike potentially costing just as much ki to use successfully in some circumstances for various reasons, if not more, there is also The fact that Ki returns on a short rest and several of the important basics or "go to" abilities people might focus on as a 4 elements monk actually deal damage as well as extra effects. For those not copying spells the Damage is only slightly lower but more variable than just hitting things with your fists but they have some of the greatest distances for moving opponents around the battlefield as an enhancement to the monks natural battlefield control ability to go with that sacrifice (as well as doing half damage even on a successful save). Being 20' to 30' in length when it comes to forced movement. it's still short range but when most forced movement abilities are more like 5' to 10' with a couple that are 15'. That is something to keep in mind as a good trade off. And they are something you can potentially do at least a few times a day depending on the short rests compared to other classes. Not quite as often as open Palm with their FoB effects. But Open Palm is a bit low on the cost anyway realistically but that's not something most are ever going to complain about.
As for the Readied action. Yes you can only ready 1 type of action. But you don't need the entire turn to take advantage of it. Specially if it's something that isn't going to wear off before your next turn. The cost is your reaction but your reaction isn't going to be guaranteed to be valuable that turn anyway. And when you ready that action You can still take your other actions in preparation of using that readied action. So you can move on your action. Potentially Patient Defense if your worried about being attacked though Hold Person has a long enough range that shouldn't be too much of an issue and they'd have to try to get away without knowing what your actually going to do with that readied action which is a bit meta even for smart enemies. So the reality is that you don't actually need your whole action to be moved in the turn order to take advantage of it. And this is something many people forget when it comes to Readied actions.
On the topic of Immunities. I purposely didn't bring them up. They are outside cases. Either because They do not apply for some reason (such as being a creature you cannot use the ability or spell on anyway) or They are too rare to consider as part of general play when it comes to the monk. The Deurgar Despot is actually a fine example in both directions really. It's interestingly immune to Paralyze while still being Humanoid. But at the same time it's con is +4. So it's not exactly a good target for stunning strike either. It also has a high Strength Save DC on two of it's 4 attacks and it's other two attacks in it's multiattack take advantage of being prone. So it's also not the best to stay to near such a creature for a Monk. Patient Defense or step of the wind to disengage to try to stay out of it's way are going to be far more valuable against such a threat. Though i know many will look at such a creature as "If I can just stun this one enemy then it's worth all of the Ki." But the problem with that is that it's the type of creature that your either not going to be facing alone but may also not be the only one on it's kind that is one the battlefield for you to have to deal with. It in some ways is the perfect example on how being adaptable is going to be important in how you treat each battle because if you meet one of these with other Deurgar or two of these things in the same combat group. It's going to heavily affect how you deal with that battle. You may be best served going after other targets to neutralize or try to beat down or to partner up with your casters with various aoe effects and trying to manipulate the Despots into particular locations to suffer effects and/or damage from what the casters do instead. Their rediculously low dex is a good thing to target water whip to move them around for the 4 elements monk and then use another ki to disengage and get out of their reach depending on how far you pulled them towards you, or to knock them down to make it harder for them to get out of a lasting AoE, or even target with your own fireballs since they are likely to fail the save and take full damage. Other monks like the Kensei or Astral Self might be best suited to pelt them from range or for the Drunken Master to rely on his ability to freely disengage or redirect attacks or other abilities as suitable.
I only spoke to Campaign focuses to entire kinds of monsters that might be valid. There are certain campaigns that do focus primarily on one kind of monster such as Draconic, Elemental, Undead, or Demonic/Fiendish creatures. But many are actually very open and you meet lots of kinds of many levels And your villains are as likely to be sinister nobles as they are to be an Undead Liche. So this comparison can be sometimes relevant to mention so that people can know if they are stepping into a blanket exception where one ability just might not be useful most of the time.
Good breakdown - I'm certainly not saying it's better than Stunning Strike, just different. Different saves, and different effects from your allies. Also, you can upcast it and hit multiple targets.
This is true, but you're looking at 4 ki to upcast to two targets ... and with Stunning Strike you could potentially stun four targets with the same ki cost.
I am sorry if I used stun in my last sentence. I meant to say Paralyzed in that statement. More in meaning that even if it worked that it still wouldn't work for various reasons. Immunity being one of them but not the only or the biggest one. Just as a general example of lots of reasons that it wouldn't work and not some kind of major factor to decide between the two. I must have swapped things around in my head as I was posting things and didnt' catch it.
As for the Issue of Ki you bring up. It's just as easy for monks to blow all their ki in a few rounds anyway. If your going to bring up this criticism you have to level it equally. Many monk players have the problem that they seem to think that just because they have ki they need to spend it on all the rounds they can, and/or that they need to use it only on certain kinds of moves. This is never true. But Monks also build up Ki faster than almost any other resource and it becomes much easier to spend in larger and larger groups. It may be gone in 2 or 3 turns at low levels but the same issue of it being gone in 2 or 3 turns is just as true with a weak Save DC and having to attempt multiple times to stun a creature.
Just because that Chromatic dragon can be stunned. Or that Lich. It doesn't mean it's an effective use for it. This is falling into the same sunken cost fallacy that is used against the 4 elements monk but calling it acceptable. Yes they can be stunned but when it's taking 3 and 4 and 5 ki a turn to stun it. Your going to be out in just 3 or 4 turns without ever using a "high cost" move anyway but just quickly plinking your pool to death quickly in a lot of small cost moves (including potentially FoB to keep getting chances to Stun) that could be just as inneffective. yes Stun potentially works against more things but at the same time. It doesn't necessarily work enough on such things to actually be useful on more things. If the cost per turn is to high on one move then it should be equally considered too high for another move. if you are willing to accept such costs and play aruond them then you should be willing to do so in either case.
As for being out of Ki quickly. This is also not always the problem that it is made out to be. yes it does stop some of the flashier moves and potentially 1 extra attack a turn or certain defenses. But you weren't necessarily doing those things every turn anyway. And with the lowered need and easier access to attack bonus increases. You aren't penalized as much for having lowered Attack as you are lowered Save DC. People like to use high AC's to represent need for things like high attack stats. But the typical armor classes actually being faced are usually much lower than the numbers they pick, the numbers they pick often being arbitrary or being based entirely on PC's in the way they build them or guides they read build them most despite this not being a pvp centric game and the average enemy from the average statblock not following quite those same rules in their makeups. So it only becomes an issue with DM's that do a lot of alterations to their monsters for one reason or another or enjoy making full PC's for short time uses as NPC's. So when you put this all together. Not only is it easier to turn a +5 attack into a +6 or +7 attack. But the demands to Have it at +7 or better are a fair bit lower in comparison to Save DC's which are almost impossible to increase for Monks in other ways and Save DC's might be important to the style of play that they use to be reliably effective (and Reliable does not mean always despite many efforts to make it so). These are important distinctions to make when looking at them objectively.
So what we end up with is Stunning Strike costs a bit less ki for a single usage but often a decent bit of potential to take more than one use and in a turn to take effect when use practically. Uses a Save stat That makes a decently large portion of seemingly viable targets basically non-viable from an efficiency standpoint and affects a target only for a set amount of time in a turn without any recovery saves. But also comes with the issue that it is both attack and save dependant to work ultimately.
vs
Hold Person which costs a bit more Ki and is a bit less directly useful against certain types of monsters but still has potential use against what is the most common enemy type over the length of the average campaign with a different but actually much smaller group of seemingly non-viable targets due to other factors such as saves that attacks ki's off of a different Save from Stunning Strike. That has a potential for a greater condition effect and potentially much longer duration (though against properly chosen targets the truth is your probably looking about an average of 3 turns of actual effectiveness).
When you balance all of this out what you end up with is two companion moves that are useful in different situations and through various different reasons actually have somewhat similar flaws and and strengths while having some unique mechanics to each of their own situations. But many of the similarities are actually masked in the details sounding very different on the surface.
The thing that is often looked over in all of this and I've said more than once in these kinds of threads is that Just because monk has an ability and it's part of their class or subclass. That doesn't mean that you always need to be using it. There are a couple of Subclasses that lean heavily into the idea that you should. But the abilities and the combinations of abilities that you use should be based upon each combat you are in. Not based just upon the feature on your sheet. The idea that because you have it that you need make use of it all the time is the reason why a lot of people complain that their monks suck without ever considering things like the combinations of the abilities they were trying to use, the subclasses they are, and the conditions of the combats that they are in. The monk is an advanced class in many respects to get full use out of.