I understand you like the subclass and want it work...good!
I am glad you like it and find it entertaining and fun. Most people don't
That just the god's honest truth of it.
The people who don't like it are loud. That doesn't mean they're the majority.
I still have yet to see any evidence that they aren't... In fact I've only seen the opposite.
That doesn't mean they're right, either. And regardless of whether they're right or wrong, you're just siding with them because of confirmation bias.
It also means that the minority isn't correct either.
I guess we just have to agree to disagree.
Oh, the disagreement was never in doubt. What is in doubt is that you think you're in the majority. Because none of the several links you've given have shown any such indication.
I understand you like the subclass and want it work...good!
I am glad you like it and find it entertaining and fun. Most people don't
That just the god's honest truth of it.
The people who don't like it are loud. That doesn't mean they're the majority.
I still have yet to see any evidence that they aren't... In fact I've only seen the opposite.
That doesn't mean they're right, either. And regardless of whether they're right or wrong, you're just siding with them because of confirmation bias.
It also means that the minority isn't correct either.
I guess we just have to agree to disagree.
Oh, the disagreement was never in doubt. What is in doubt is that you think you're in the majority. Because none of the several links you've given have shown any such indication.
I understand you like the subclass and want it work...good!
I am glad you like it and find it entertaining and fun. Most people don't
That just the god's honest truth of it.
The people who don't like it are loud. That doesn't mean they're the majority.
I still have yet to see any evidence that they aren't... In fact I've only seen the opposite.
That doesn't mean they're right, either. And regardless of whether they're right or wrong, you're just siding with them because of confirmation bias.
It also means that the minority isn't correct either.
I guess we just have to agree to disagree.
Oh, the disagreement was never in doubt. What is in doubt is that you think you're in the majority. Because none of the several links you've given have shown any such indication.
I understand you like the subclass and want it work...good!
I am glad you like it and find it entertaining and fun. Most people don't
That just the god's honest truth of it.
The people who don't like it are loud. That doesn't mean they're the majority.
I still have yet to see any evidence that they aren't... In fact I've only seen the opposite.
That doesn't mean they're right, either. And regardless of whether they're right or wrong, you're just siding with them because of confirmation bias.
It also means that the minority isn't correct either.
I guess we just have to agree to disagree.
Oh, the disagreement was never in doubt. What is in doubt is that you think you're in the majority. Because none of the several links you've given have shown any such indication.
They do
Not if you can think critically.
I mean... You have 0 evidence that the majority like it or find it good.
I at least showed surveys from a representative sample of the DnD collective that likes to discuss and understand the game... They don't like it.
I understand you like the subclass and want it work...good!
I am glad you like it and find it entertaining and fun. Most people don't
That just the god's honest truth of it.
The people who don't like it are loud. That doesn't mean they're the majority.
I still have yet to see any evidence that they aren't... In fact I've only seen the opposite.
That doesn't mean they're right, either. And regardless of whether they're right or wrong, you're just siding with them because of confirmation bias.
It also means that the minority isn't correct either.
I guess we just have to agree to disagree.
Oh, the disagreement was never in doubt. What is in doubt is that you think you're in the majority. Because none of the several links you've given have shown any such indication.
They do
Not if you can think critically.
I mean... You have 0 evidence that the majority like it or find it good.
I at least showed surveys from a representative sample of the DnD collective that likes to discuss and understand the game... They don't like it.
Which one is more likely to be the majority?
You've shown surveys that can be skewed to say pretty much whatever you want them to say in actuality. But do not in any way prove actual good or bad about the subclass itself or even that the people saying such have in all actuality played the subclass in any way.
I understand you like the subclass and want it work...good!
I am glad you like it and find it entertaining and fun. Most people don't
That just the god's honest truth of it.
The people who don't like it are loud. That doesn't mean they're the majority.
I still have yet to see any evidence that they aren't... In fact I've only seen the opposite.
That doesn't mean they're right, either. And regardless of whether they're right or wrong, you're just siding with them because of confirmation bias.
It also means that the minority isn't correct either.
I guess we just have to agree to disagree.
Oh, the disagreement was never in doubt. What is in doubt is that you think you're in the majority. Because none of the several links you've given have shown any such indication.
They do
Not if you can think critically.
I mean... You have 0 evidence that the majority like it or find it good.
I at least showed surveys from a representative sample of the DnD collective that likes to discuss and understand the game... They don't like it.
Which one is more likely to be the majority?
You've shown surveys that can be skewed to say pretty much whatever you want them to say in actuality. But do not in any way prove actual good or bad about the subclass itself or even that the people saying such have in all actuality played the subclass in any way.
I'm pretty sure thats just doubling down on ignoring any evidence that doesn't meet your own preconceived notions... At least I have evidence of my notions.
Also which is more logical:
People honestly don't like the subclass
OR
Literally every survey is skewed to (for some reason) hate on 4 elements.
Lets see if we can steer this thread back on topic and away from poll speculation.
Any topic ideas? Best/Worst Discipline perhaps? I feel like we touched on that a little within other comments but might be nice to explore as a focused topic. Seems to me like Fangs of the Fire Snake is a strong contender for best. Its been a while since I played a 4 elements so its hard for me to say.
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Lets see if we can steer this thread back on topic and away from poll speculation.
Any topic ideas? Best/Worst Discipline perhaps? I feel like we touched on that a little within other comments but might be nice to explore as a focused topic. Seems to me like Fangs of the Fire Snake is a strong contender for best. Its been a while since I played a 4 elements so its hard for me to say.
Best depends upon your build and the situation your in. If you've went ahead and built a 4 elements monk like any other monk with Dexterity Primary then for the most part for most if not all of your adventuring career with that character then Fangs of the Fire Snake is going to be far and away the best. That being said. don't let it fool you.
Fangs of the Fire Snake is just alright and another tool in the arsenal when your playing a Wisdom Based one. And what is the most useful is going to depend on positioning, the type of opponent your facing, perhaps the number of them, and potentially the party makeup your playing with in. This is true to an extent for all monks but 4 elements when it really gets going really builds upon this idea that you use different tools at different times. There are times something like Hold Person is really nice. Whether others your going to get high value out of Water Whip or Fist of the Unbroken Air. While there are going to be still others where you actually do get a lot out of stunning Strike. Don't get trapped in the idea of having a best move. Keep re-evaluating what is best for right now. Because it literally can change from turn to turn. This is part of what Makes Monk a more advanced class harder for new players to grasp to begin with. But then it is compounded upon with totally new options and approaches by 4 elements.
Edit: Also. Don't just assume because something is higher level or it costs more that it's automatically better. Walls may be better in some situations and are some of the highest cost. But plenty of times abilities that you get at low level and have base costs of just 2 or 3 can be just as strong in a given situation.
Rush of the Gale Spirits is the worst for the first tier for me.
The effect is too narrow and it's too situation specific.
Fire fang seems nice but it's easier then ever to get reach with monk now thanks to dedicated weapon.
1 ki for 1d10 fire damage is just ok and gets worse the later the game does
Fist of the unbroken air seems ok but proning something 20 ft away means the grid has to be right and your allies in the right position to capitalize.
You kind of screw your ranged allies and your melee buddies have to chase them then and they are less likely to be as quick as you.
Except that it's not easier than ever to get reach. Because none of the pole arm weapons and the like with reach can be used with dedicated weapon. Leaving only the whip and you still have to do something to get proficiency in the whip. And being able to do that existed before as well. It's not something that is magically new thanks to Dedicated weapon. It's just improved by it when it comes to basically the whip and maybe one other weapon that I'm forgetting about.
Water Whip and Fist of Unbroken Air are my picks for best. Ranged attack, proning a creature at range -- these are two things that are something Monks need (range), and something Monks can take advantage of (half movement via prone). The fact that you can readily prone a flying creature and deal extra fall damage is the icing on the cake. Fire Snake a step behind for the tier 1 stuff.
Shape the Flowing River and Rush of Gale Spirits are bad, unless you are in a maritime campaign. Sweeping Cinder Strike isn't exactly good either.
At tier 2, they are both fairly eh options. Clench of the North Wind/Hold Person is just another way to Stunning Strike for a higher ki cost (Fateless and I have had this discussion in depth elsewhere and I don't want to rehash it here). It is a viable option, yes, but nothing about it is "good" when a basic Monk can do essentially the same thing for less cost. Fist of Four Thunders/Shatter is meh. Neither is bad, neither is great. Generally at level six I'd almost advise getting all three of WW/FoUA/FFS rather than taking either of these.
At tier 3, Flames of the Phoenix is only OK. Fireball is awesome on a level 5 caster, not a level 11 martial. Mist Stance is awesome. Ride the Wind is pretty good as well, but again, hopefully you have had a caster that can do this for you several levels earlier than this, and you can run up walls anyways at this point.
At tier 4, they're just about all good options, except Eternal Mountain Defense/Stoneskin. Otherwise you're getting two great battlefield control options or arguably the best AOE option at that level spell.
Overall, my favorites are Water Whip, Fist of Unbroken Air, Mist Stance, River of Hungry Flame, and Wave of Rolling Earth. Mist Stance and Wave give the Monk some cool utility that they otherwise lack outside of combat.
1) Four Elements is an unpopular subclass and has a bad reputation among the general DND community.
2) Four Elements is mechanically okay, and gets a bad rap that it does not deserve.
It's silly that there's an argument about it at this point. Using evidence from point #1 does not disprove point #2, and vice versa.
Fair enough!
I think all your points make sense as evidence that the class is disliked in popular opinion. That's kinda incontrovertible at this point! I do think that a few of the polls you shared were either hard to interpret (that massive Google Sheet one was a beast, and I say that as someone who likes spreadsheets), but again, the preponderance of evidence outweighs the fact that some of it might not be the cleanest evidence, if that makes sense.
My point was more directed at people who are somehow trying to argue that no, Four Elements is actually popular and loved. It ain't.
At tier 2, they are both fairly eh options. Clench of the North Wind/Hold Person is just another way to Stunning Strike for a higher ki cost (Fateless and I have had this discussion in depth elsewhere and I don't want to rehash it here). It is a viable option, yes, but nothing about it is "good" when a basic Monk can do essentially the same thing for less cost. Fist of Four Thunders/Shatter is meh. Neither is bad, neither is great. Generally at level six I'd almost advise getting all three of WW/FoUA/FFS rather than taking either of these.
Less cost is still a bit disengenuous. Because for starters it may not be less for a variety of reasons. Your letting your biases leak into that one. They are just two abilities that do the same thing in different ways with their own individual advantages and disadvantages.
Hold person one is weird... You give up an action and more ki to maybe paralyze them.... Or nothing happens.
Casters are generally better suited for this one as their DC is higher on average I would think.
Stunning seems better as you get two shots at it with an action and costs 2 ki to try. You also do damage so it's not a total loss if they save on both.
At least with Tashas now you can try hold person then do aBA attack and try a stun
Hold person one is weird... You give up an action and more ki to maybe paralyze them.... Or nothing happens.
Casters are generally better suited for this one as their DC is higher on average I would think.
Stunning seems better as you get two shots at it with an action and costs 2 ki to try. You also do damage so it's not a total loss if they save on both.
At least with Tashas now you can try hold person then do aBA attack and try a stun
Except that if your Wisdom Based and have focused on raising wisdom. Your DC's are as good as any other Caster.
Ironically building that way also makes Stunning Strike far more likely to land if you can land a blow as well. But you do need to be able to hit reasonably well. which a monk can usually reliably do.
And Hold Person has the potential to last multiple rounds. Though it has a bit narrower scope on everything that it works on. Which can quicky balance out costs and even differences in damage when played smartly. Which is something NVC and I have gone over at length in other threads.
Hold person one is weird... You give up an action and more ki to maybe paralyze them.... Or nothing happens.
Casters are generally better suited for this one as their DC is higher on average I would think.
Stunning seems better as you get two shots at it with an action and costs 2 ki to try. You also do damage so it's not a total loss if they save on both.
At least with Tashas now you can try hold person then do aBA attack and try a stun
Fateless and I had a huge back-and-forth about this elsewhere. My advice: Don't get too into the weeds about it. We both brought out all kinds of odds for passing saves and whatnot and it all boiled down to an unresolved disagreement.
Long story short: They and I generally disagree. Hold Person could possibly be a better option, odds-wise, than Stunning Strike three times for the same three ki, but a lot is going to depend on CON and WIS saves. And generally speaking, the fact that it is limited to humanoids mostly makes me prefer Stunning Strike over it.
The biggest detriment against it as one of your very limited Elemental Discipline options, to me, is that it already replicates a core Monk ability. Shatter, Water Whip, Fangs of the Fire Snake ... heck even Burning Hands, all of those are things that help a Monk with its weaknesses (ranged combat and AOE) rather than give a moderate-if-any boost to creature control.
Rush of the Gale Spirits is the worst for the first tier for me.
The effect is too narrow and it's too situation specific.
Fire fang seems nice but it's easier then ever to get reach with monk now thanks to dedicated weapon.
1 ki for 1d10 fire damage is just ok and gets worse the later the game does
Fist of the unbroken air seems ok but proning something 20 ft away means the grid has to be right and your allies in the right position to capitalize.
You kind of screw your ranged allies and your melee buddies have to chase them then and they are less likely to be as quick as you.
Earlier in this thread I brought this up and as it is worded, FoUA doesn’t require you to push the target, you CAN, but don’t have to. Also, FoUA pushes UP TO 20’ (so 0-20’) AND knocks prone so if your target is in melee with your party, it seems that, as worded, you can just knock them prone on the spot. Same for Water Whip except it’s a pull OR knock prone. So again you don’t have to send your melee friends chasing after them.
But you are correct that if you prone them it does screw over your ranges players.
My top picks would be Fangs of the Fire Snake, Water Whip, and Fists of Unbroken Air as they are unique and not just casting spells (wish all the disciplines were like this). Hold person is nice but as Humanoid only it can be very situational depending on campaign. I have Hold Person currently on my Druid and I don’t use it very often because we’ve been dealing with undead recently. But the times I have used it, it’s had great effect.
Fireball is also a contender but at 11th level it’s lost some of its shine. If you can catch a group though you could probably out damage your martial arts attacks so not useless.
It also means that the minority isn't correct either.
I guess we just have to agree to disagree.
Oh, the disagreement was never in doubt. What is in doubt is that you think you're in the majority. Because none of the several links you've given have shown any such indication.
They do
Not if you can think critically.
I mean... You have 0 evidence that the majority like it or find it good.
I at least showed surveys from a representative sample of the DnD collective that likes to discuss and understand the game... They don't like it.
Which one is more likely to be the majority?
You've shown surveys that can be skewed to say pretty much whatever you want them to say in actuality. But do not in any way prove actual good or bad about the subclass itself or even that the people saying such have in all actuality played the subclass in any way.
I'm pretty sure thats just doubling down on ignoring any evidence that doesn't meet your own preconceived notions... At least I have evidence of my notions.
Also which is more logical:
People honestly don't like the subclass
OR
Literally every survey is skewed to (for some reason) hate on 4 elements.
Lets see if we can steer this thread back on topic and away from poll speculation.
Any topic ideas? Best/Worst Discipline perhaps? I feel like we touched on that a little within other comments but might be nice to explore as a focused topic. Seems to me like Fangs of the Fire Snake is a strong contender for best. Its been a while since I played a 4 elements so its hard for me to say.
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews! Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
Rush of the Gale Spirits is the worst for the first tier for me.
The effect is too narrow and it's too situation specific.
Fire fang seems nice but it's easier then ever to get reach with monk now thanks to dedicated weapon.
1 ki for 1d10 fire damage is just ok and gets worse the later the game does
Fist of the unbroken air seems ok but proning something 20 ft away means the grid has to be right and your allies in the right position to capitalize.
You kind of screw your ranged allies and your melee buddies have to chase them then and they are less likely to be as quick as you.
Best depends upon your build and the situation your in. If you've went ahead and built a 4 elements monk like any other monk with Dexterity Primary then for the most part for most if not all of your adventuring career with that character then Fangs of the Fire Snake is going to be far and away the best. That being said. don't let it fool you.
Fangs of the Fire Snake is just alright and another tool in the arsenal when your playing a Wisdom Based one. And what is the most useful is going to depend on positioning, the type of opponent your facing, perhaps the number of them, and potentially the party makeup your playing with in. This is true to an extent for all monks but 4 elements when it really gets going really builds upon this idea that you use different tools at different times. There are times something like Hold Person is really nice. Whether others your going to get high value out of Water Whip or Fist of the Unbroken Air. While there are going to be still others where you actually do get a lot out of stunning Strike. Don't get trapped in the idea of having a best move. Keep re-evaluating what is best for right now. Because it literally can change from turn to turn. This is part of what Makes Monk a more advanced class harder for new players to grasp to begin with. But then it is compounded upon with totally new options and approaches by 4 elements.
Edit: Also. Don't just assume because something is higher level or it costs more that it's automatically better. Walls may be better in some situations and are some of the highest cost. But plenty of times abilities that you get at low level and have base costs of just 2 or 3 can be just as strong in a given situation.
Two things can be true:
1) Four Elements is an unpopular subclass and has a bad reputation among the general DND community.
2) Four Elements is mechanically okay, and gets a bad rap that it does not deserve.
It's silly that there's an argument about it at this point. Using evidence from point #1 does not disprove point #2, and vice versa.
Fair enough!
Except that it's not easier than ever to get reach. Because none of the pole arm weapons and the like with reach can be used with dedicated weapon. Leaving only the whip and you still have to do something to get proficiency in the whip. And being able to do that existed before as well. It's not something that is magically new thanks to Dedicated weapon. It's just improved by it when it comes to basically the whip and maybe one other weapon that I'm forgetting about.
Regarding best/worst disciplines:
Water Whip and Fist of Unbroken Air are my picks for best. Ranged attack, proning a creature at range -- these are two things that are something Monks need (range), and something Monks can take advantage of (half movement via prone). The fact that you can readily prone a flying creature and deal extra fall damage is the icing on the cake. Fire Snake a step behind for the tier 1 stuff.
Shape the Flowing River and Rush of Gale Spirits are bad, unless you are in a maritime campaign. Sweeping Cinder Strike isn't exactly good either.
At tier 2, they are both fairly eh options. Clench of the North Wind/Hold Person is just another way to Stunning Strike for a higher ki cost (Fateless and I have had this discussion in depth elsewhere and I don't want to rehash it here). It is a viable option, yes, but nothing about it is "good" when a basic Monk can do essentially the same thing for less cost. Fist of Four Thunders/Shatter is meh. Neither is bad, neither is great. Generally at level six I'd almost advise getting all three of WW/FoUA/FFS rather than taking either of these.
At tier 3, Flames of the Phoenix is only OK. Fireball is awesome on a level 5 caster, not a level 11 martial. Mist Stance is awesome. Ride the Wind is pretty good as well, but again, hopefully you have had a caster that can do this for you several levels earlier than this, and you can run up walls anyways at this point.
At tier 4, they're just about all good options, except Eternal Mountain Defense/Stoneskin. Otherwise you're getting two great battlefield control options or arguably the best AOE option at that level spell.
Overall, my favorites are Water Whip, Fist of Unbroken Air, Mist Stance, River of Hungry Flame, and Wave of Rolling Earth. Mist Stance and Wave give the Monk some cool utility that they otherwise lack outside of combat.
I think all your points make sense as evidence that the class is disliked in popular opinion. That's kinda incontrovertible at this point! I do think that a few of the polls you shared were either hard to interpret (that massive Google Sheet one was a beast, and I say that as someone who likes spreadsheets), but again, the preponderance of evidence outweighs the fact that some of it might not be the cleanest evidence, if that makes sense.
My point was more directed at people who are somehow trying to argue that no, Four Elements is actually popular and loved. It ain't.
Less cost is still a bit disengenuous. Because for starters it may not be less for a variety of reasons. Your letting your biases leak into that one. They are just two abilities that do the same thing in different ways with their own individual advantages and disadvantages.
Hold person one is weird... You give up an action and more ki to maybe paralyze them.... Or nothing happens.
Casters are generally better suited for this one as their DC is higher on average I would think.
Stunning seems better as you get two shots at it with an action and costs 2 ki to try. You also do damage so it's not a total loss if they save on both.
At least with Tashas now you can try hold person then do aBA attack and try a stun
Except that if your Wisdom Based and have focused on raising wisdom. Your DC's are as good as any other Caster.
Ironically building that way also makes Stunning Strike far more likely to land if you can land a blow as well. But you do need to be able to hit reasonably well. which a monk can usually reliably do.
And Hold Person has the potential to last multiple rounds. Though it has a bit narrower scope on everything that it works on. Which can quicky balance out costs and even differences in damage when played smartly. Which is something NVC and I have gone over at length in other threads.
Fateless and I had a huge back-and-forth about this elsewhere. My advice: Don't get too into the weeds about it. We both brought out all kinds of odds for passing saves and whatnot and it all boiled down to an unresolved disagreement.
Long story short: They and I generally disagree. Hold Person could possibly be a better option, odds-wise, than Stunning Strike three times for the same three ki, but a lot is going to depend on CON and WIS saves. And generally speaking, the fact that it is limited to humanoids mostly makes me prefer Stunning Strike over it.
The biggest detriment against it as one of your very limited Elemental Discipline options, to me, is that it already replicates a core Monk ability. Shatter, Water Whip, Fangs of the Fire Snake ... heck even Burning Hands, all of those are things that help a Monk with its weaknesses (ranged combat and AOE) rather than give a moderate-if-any boost to creature control.
Earlier in this thread I brought this up and as it is worded, FoUA doesn’t require you to push the target, you CAN, but don’t have to. Also, FoUA pushes UP TO 20’ (so 0-20’) AND knocks prone so if your target is in melee with your party, it seems that, as worded, you can just knock them prone on the spot. Same for Water Whip except it’s a pull OR knock prone. So again you don’t have to send your melee friends chasing after them.
But you are correct that if you prone them it does screw over your ranges players.
My top picks would be Fangs of the Fire Snake, Water Whip, and Fists of Unbroken Air as they are unique and not just casting spells (wish all the disciplines were like this). Hold person is nice but as Humanoid only it can be very situational depending on campaign. I have Hold Person currently on my Druid and I don’t use it very often because we’ve been dealing with undead recently. But the times I have used it, it’s had great effect.
Fireball is also a contender but at 11th level it’s lost some of its shine. If you can catch a group though you could probably out damage your martial arts attacks so not useless.
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