I'm sure I'm not alone when it comes to the opinion: The Way of the Four Elements subclass is the weakest Monk subclass, if not one of the weakest in the game. Plenty of people have taken their own perspective on this subclass and tried to revise it into something better. I'm trying to do the same. Simply put, I believe the core problems with this subclass are the spell progression and the ki point cost. So here's my idea:
3rd level: Can cast spells by expending ki points equal to spell level. Can cast these spells without verbal or material components that lack a cost.
3rd/6th/11th/17th level: Learn any combination of 2 cantrips (from Shape Water, Control Flames, Mold Earth, Gust) or elemental disciplines that you qualify for and don’t already know.
I would also add a whole new set of elemental disciplines and spells. Each discipline would have a level prerequisite and a cantrip prerequisite. The primary purpose would be to allow for player customization. You could focus entirely on a single element and become an absolute master of it, or you could branch out and choose many different elements to learn, essentially exchanging power for versatility.
Monks already forgo any material costs to the way that they do it. It's all done through their ki. Which makes it one of the only ways to cast a couple of their spells on the list actually worth it. Granted at least one of them is gotten so late that it's still not really worth it.
So this is not actually a change.
Also. I would suggest really playing it and getting to know the way it works if you want to change things. Due to the fact that most Elemental Disciplines do things like work off of saving throws. Your best off prioritizing Wisdom and getting just enough Dex to keep your martial arts hitting fairly regularly until Wisdom is maxed out. This is a very different play style than what is taught in any Monk Guide. Many don't even acknowledge it exists, or for that matter acurately explain the pro's and con's to dex based monk play and when some things aren't as useful as they indicate (such as Stunning Strike).
If your looking to Alter the Class. There is always room for more Elemental Disciplines for Starters. They were designed for more to be added and even suggest doing such in the way it's written up using what is there as a guide. Now saying that I want to put two things out there to keep in mind.
Just lowering Cost of Elemental Disciplines has a danger to it. It's a dramatic upswing in power for 4 Elements Monks. Not only does it make anything cheaper but it makes things Immediately upcastable when you attain them. And most of them are not only fairly upcastable but also can be cast a lot more often than other similar 1/2 and 1/3 spell casters because of how Ki works in conjunction with short rest. Lowering Ki costs means higher level castings out of the gate and your suggestion actually turns this up to 11. Specially when combined to with the ki expenditure progression that is attached to Elemental Disciplines.
I'll use fireball as an example for what I mean about costs. Just because it's a spell everybody sees and drools over and wants to juts unleash on everything.
When you get it at 11th level. You can cast a level 3 spell without any changes for 4 ki the way the 4 elements monk casts it at this level. You can already cast this spell 2 times per short rest just out of the box. If you get just 2 short rests throughout the day and you focus towards casting fireballs in fights. You are now able to cast this spell 6 times a day where any other 1/2 or 1/3 caster is picking this spell level up at either 9th or 13th level respectively. 1/2 Casters are only able to cast 3 spells of this level total for the entire day at this same level and obviously 1/3 aren't casting them at all.
When you level up to 13th level, when you are casting nothing but Fireballs with your ki. Your now capable of casting 9 base level fireballs a day on 2 short rests or 6 level 4 fireballs. This is the point where 1/2 casters are Just getting a single 4th level spell for the entire day and other 1/3 casters are just getting their first 2 level 3 spells.
By level 17. Your actually casting 2 5th level fireballs per short rest for a total of 6 following the same situations of 2 short rests in a day where 1/2 caster are casting just 1 5th level spell from their spell slots and the other 1/3 casters will never be able to upcast any spells of this level purely with their spell casting slots.
What your suggesting is that they be able to cast 4th level spells fireballs at level 11. 5th level fireballs at level 13 and 6th level fireballs at 17 and to be able to do this many more times than any other hybrid caster in the game. This is a dramatic bump in power for the 4 elements monk. This is quite of bit of power jump in the martial caster hybrid that really needs to be considered and weight out fully. Because the Reality is that if they want to focus on spell casting Monks get overall more spell slots for their small handful of spells and the casting level more akin to half casters while representing more 1/3 casters in style. And they Do their casting in a style of a Sorcerer using their Sorcery points on spell slots but at a much more favorable exchange rate than the Sorcerer's get.
Now my suggestions for the Class and I've stated them in other threads before.
First 1 is that instead of lowering costs. Consider maybe an option for giving slightly more Ki to offset the weight of the costs a bit. My preffered suggestion is 1 more ki point than a normal monk at each level of play currently. So each time you pick up elemental disciplines you increase your max possible by +1. Putting you at a total of 24 to 25 total at level 20 depending on how you seperate the tiers. Now this is a boost in power and I'm not sure if it needs toned back when short rests are taken into account. Partly because I haven't gotten to do much testing. But it seems helpful and allows the 4 elements Monk to monk a little more along with casting. But it also means that if you really want to focus on Elemental Disciplines they are doing them just that little bit more in between each rest.
My second suggestion is Allow them to get 2 elemental disciplines at each of the levels after third that they pick up an elemental discipline. This will allow them to get a bit more variety to be able to use. Because it boosts you from 5 that you can use up to 8. if you want them to have even more choice maybe consider giving them 3 per each point they gain elemental disciplines for a total of 12. But the Cantrips are basically useless. People look at them and say they want them. And think they want the damage out of control flames or something like that. But Elemental Affinity already does most of what they do anyway. Breaking it down into the more traditional elemental mage ones just means that your wasting more slots on Cantrips and less slots on actual worthwhile powers. And with That being Said. A few more Elemental Disciplines in General is a good idea. There are a lot of them that just aren't the list that would be useful or even iconic. Or use Fangs of the fire Snake to make something that more matches a different element that you are preferring. Or one of the other non-spell disciplines into a different element with a slightly different style.
But i can tell you from understanding some of how to build them and playing a couple different 4 elements monks. The Tweaks do not need to be as nearly as big as most people make them. And to many are caught up not just with the idea of benders. But playing the Avatar himself. The one that is admitted to break the rules of even his own universe that they now want to break the rules of the D&D universe as well. And nothing needs to be carried out that far to make the 4 elements workable.
I had a new idea: make Elemental Monks 1/3 casters. Not only would it run off of a well tested system that works for Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters, it would provide an opportunity for the creation of new elemental spells (which are honestly quite scarce)
I had a new idea: make Elemental Monks 1/3 casters. Not only would it run off of a well tested system that works for Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters, it would provide an opportunity for the creation of new elemental spells (which are honestly quite scarce)
Giving them access to all evocation spells regardless of spell list might be interesting; not sure how that would stack up with the Eldritch Knight per se. Spell schools are often arbitrary, and you can find two spells that do functionally the same thing in two different schools. Evocation and Transmutation from one class might be a good way to give them dual school access like EKs and ATs, if the "all evocations everywhere" design is too underpowered.
I had a new idea: make Elemental Monks 1/3 casters. Not only would it run off of a well tested system that works for Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters, it would provide an opportunity for the creation of new elemental spells (which are honestly quite scarce)
Giving them access to all evocation spells regardless of spell list might be interesting; not sure how that would stack up with the Eldritch Knight per se. Spell schools are often arbitrary, and you can find two spells that do functionally the same thing in two different schools. Evocation and Transmutation from one class might be a good way to give them dual school access like EKs and ATs, if the "all evocations everywhere" design is too underpowered.
Agree...they should just get spells from any list and flavor as you will. They gave them both the best spell list at least (wizard) but there are some absolutely great spells on the paladin, ranger, and druid lists that would make a lot of sense for fighters.
Smite spells in particular is a glaring omission from the Eldritch Knight.
My alternative has been to give them the 1/3rd caster progression on Pact Slots (Like the Profane Soul Bloodhunter subclass) which to me is more interesting.
I actually tried writing up a 1/3 caster variant of the Four Elements Monk, which you can look at here if you are interested. One thing thats a bit limiting is the number of "elemental" spells for any singular spell list can be somewhat lacking, so although its a bit messier I instead limited the spells they can take to what I call "nature attributes" with a particular attribute being associated with certain types of damage or an effect the spell produces (working under the assumption that the player and DM will reflavor the spell's appearance to match one of the four elements).
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I actually tried writing up a 1/3 caster variant of the Four Elements Monk, which you can look at here if you are interested. One thing thats a bit limiting is the number of "elemental" spells for any singular spell list can be somewhat lacking, so although its a bit messier I instead limited the spells they can take to what I call "nature attributes" with a particular attribute being associated with certain types of damage or an effect the spell produces (working under the assumption that the player and DM will reflavor the spell's appearance to match one of the four elements).
Yeah I had a similar mock up but for the Pact Slot progression. I had it so when they cast a spell with elemental damage they could swap to any other element for a ki cost.
I gave them 2 pact slots per short rest so they could feel more free to spend ki to augment spells like that. At 11th level I believe I let them use a BA to attack if they cast a spell as an action....Tasha's lets them do this now if they spend ki during their action so it would be roughly the same.
Overall I think monks need another resource pool as their main issue is Ki hungry subclass abilities that stack with class abilities.
You guys do realize that 4 elements monks already do 1/3 casting, But actually better, the way they are right? The Fact that they don't use a traditional spell slot system doesn't actually change that. And turning them to a spell slot system doesn't actually help. The Truth is that one of the Strengths of the 4 elements Monk is that it doesn't play by the cookie cutter system that all the others do.
Things like EK's and AT's have a ridiculously small number of spells that they can have as well and actually have less casting than the 4 elements monk. The 4 elements monk gets somewhat fewer. Which can be mitigated through simply giving them more Elemental disciplines but they actually get far more castings. On top of that they have no spell level limits to what they can know. If they really wish They can basically turn all of the Elemental Disciplines either into non-leveled non-spell-mimic abilities or high level abilities. Something no other 1/3 caster can do either. Every other requires a mix of low and high level spells that cannot be escaped and limited ability to shift the breakdown of the spell levels of them around.
Making them look more like every other 1/3 caster just gets in their way and actually ruins a lot of their flavor because the more you try to force traditional casting into them then the more that you actually disconnect the subclass from the Parent class. With spell slots things like ki Fueled strikes doesn't work. The 4 Elements monk, thanks in part to optional abilities in Tasha's, already basically does what things like Blade Singer and EK have to go out of their way spending features of various class levels to be able to do. which is to mix their core class with the second class they have been hybridized into. EK itself for example doesn't actually mostly solve this issue until high level in fact While Arcane Trickster and Blade Singer never really fix it at all. Rogues and AT's for example max out at a possible 13 spells total that they can know at maximum level.
Of the Half casters Paladin's max out at having just 15 spells on hand but gain the benefit that it's easier to switch out their known spells, but the Ranger only has 11 total spells and works exactly like the EK and AT, except that they have more unique spells suited specifically to them in their spell list.
You get the Same Fix just by Upping the number of Elemental Disciplines there are and by giving the 4 elements monk More of them that they have access to at level up. Raising it up to 2 each point you recieve elemental Disciplines gets you up to 8, while you still have better potential spell slots and better potential for upcasting them, and more of them can be higher level spells/abilities if you wish. And if you go so far to give 3 at each of those increase points you end up with 12 Disciplines at your disposal which is basically the equivalent of the known spells of the half and third casters, while still having all of the increased Benefits that 4 elements monks enjoy.
The ultimate Problem with 4 elements Monks is not the power level of the class. Most people don't really understand it, don't take the time to learn it, rely on the incorrect information that is spread by others before them and then seek to fix it without understanding what they are trying to fix. The Truth is that the 4 elements monk is fairly powerful as far as monks are concerned and with that power they can actually do things that other monks cannot really do. Which is bring a different style of combat and control to play that other monks just simply do not get. But all that power comes at a cost that has to be kept in mind and balanced as well.
If you really want to Tweak the subclass. Get a lot of play in with it. Try a lot of different things and try them under a number of just scenario's and be willing to have things not work sometimes while your testing. Figure out what they do well and what they do poorly. Then smooth out a few of the glaring issues without going overboard or fill in a few of the gaps. What the 4 Elements monk could use more than anything is not actually more spells. But what it could really use is more Elemental Disciplines that do not just mimic-spells. It needs more things like Water Whip, and Unbroken Air, and Fangs of the Fire Snake that are Elemental and supernatural but aren't necessarily just outright copies of spells that don't use material components, but such disciplines also need carefully designed since they are things that can't just be blocked by Dispel magic like all of the fireballs you can cast with Flames of the Phoenix.
You guys do realize that 4 elements monks already do 1/3 casting, But actually better, the way they are right? The Fact that they don't use a traditional spell slot system doesn't actually change that. And turning them to a spell slot system doesn't actually help. The Truth is that one of the Strengths of the 4 elements Monk is that it doesn't play by the cookie cutter system that all the others do.
Things like EK's and AT's have a ridiculously small number of spells that they can have as well and actually have less casting than the 4 elements monk. The 4 elements monk gets somewhat fewer. Which can be mitigated through simply giving them more Elemental disciplines but they actually get far more castings. On top of that they have no spell level limits to what they can know. If they really wish They can basically turn all of the Elemental Disciplines either into non-leveled non-spell-mimic abilities or high level abilities. Something no other 1/3 caster can do either. Every other requires a mix of low and high level spells that cannot be escaped and limited ability to shift the breakdown of the spell levels of them around.
Making them look more like every other 1/3 caster just gets in their way and actually ruins a lot of their flavor because the more you try to force traditional casting into them then the more that you actually disconnect the subclass from the Parent class. With spell slots things like ki Fueled strikes doesn't work. The 4 Elements monk, thanks in part to optional abilities in Tasha's, already basically does what things like Blade Singer and EK have to go out of their way spending features of various class levels to be able to do. which is to mix their core class with the second class they have been hybridized into. EK itself for example doesn't actually mostly solve this issue until high level in fact While Arcane Trickster and Blade Singer never really fix it at all. Rogues and AT's for example max out at a possible 13 spells total that they can know at maximum level.
Of the Half casters Paladin's max out at having just 15 spells on hand but gain the benefit that it's easier to switch out their known spells, but the Ranger only has 11 total spells and works exactly like the EK and AT, except that they have more unique spells suited specifically to them in their spell list.
You get the Same Fix just by Upping the number of Elemental Disciplines there are and by giving the 4 elements monk More of them that they have access to at level up. Raising it up to 2 each point you recieve elemental Disciplines gets you up to 8, while you still have better potential spell slots and better potential for upcasting them, and more of them can be higher level spells/abilities if you wish. And if you go so far to give 3 at each of those increase points you end up with 12 Disciplines at your disposal which is basically the equivalent of the known spells of the half and third casters, while still having all of the increased Benefits that 4 elements monks enjoy.
The ultimate Problem with 4 elements Monks is not the power level of the class. Most people don't really understand it, don't take the time to learn it, rely on the incorrect information that is spread by others before them and then seek to fix it without understanding what they are trying to fix. The Truth is that the 4 elements monk is fairly powerful as far as monks are concerned and with that power they can actually do things that other monks cannot really do. Which is bring a different style of combat and control to play that other monks just simply do not get. But all that power comes at a cost that has to be kept in mind and balanced as well.
If you really want to Tweak the subclass. Get a lot of play in with it. Try a lot of different things and try them under a number of just scenario's and be willing to have things not work sometimes while your testing. Figure out what they do well and what they do poorly. Then smooth out a few of the glaring issues without going overboard or fill in a few of the gaps. What the 4 Elements monk could use more than anything is not actually more spells. But what it could really use is more Elemental Disciplines that do not just mimic-spells. It needs more things like Water Whip, and Unbroken Air, and Fangs of the Fire Snake that are Elemental and supernatural but aren't necessarily just outright copies of spells that don't use material components, but such disciplines also need carefully designed since they are things that can't just be blocked by Dispel magic like all of the fireballs you can cast with Flames of the Phoenix.
The main issue that many people complain about with Four Elements that is still not addressed here is that because it uses their ki points to cast (and the cost is so high) the monks lose out on being able to use other monk class abilities because of it. Flurry of Blows, Patient Defense, Step of the Wind, Stunning Strike and more all rely on monks using their ki points. While yes, four element monks can cast their spells fairly often, thats only if they make the choice to basically forgo using any of the main class' abilities to only use ki points for their spell. The subclass takes away from the main class.
On top of that, as you mention, the number of spells they get is far fewer than other casters. What is worse, is that their only subclass abilities are to get more spells. Arcane Tricksters and Eldritch Knights both get actual subclass features ON TOP of also getting access to more spells. I agree that the four elements monk could use more "non spell mimic" abilities, but that still doesn't fix the underlying issue of only getting one new spell at every subclass level and having to use less of the main class' abilities.
For four elements monk to be fixed without giving it spell slots, it needs to have a lower ki cost to use the spells and/or needs unique and flavorful subclass features which work in tandem with its unique spellcasting. The ki fueled attack feature from Tashas is a nice quick-fix, but it still doesn't make the class much better.
The main issue that many people complain about with Four Elements that is still not addressed here is that because it uses their ki points to cast (and the cost is so high) the monks lose out on being able to use other monk class abilities because of it. Flurry of Blows, Patient Defense, Step of the Wind, Stunning Strike and more all rely on monks using their ki points. While yes, four element monks can cast their spells fairly often, thats only if they make the choice to basically forgo using any of the main class' abilities to only use ki points for their spell. The subclass takes away from the main class.
On top of that, as you mention, the number of spells they get is far fewer than other casters. What is worse, is that their only subclass abilities are to get more spells. Arcane Tricksters and Eldritch Knights both get actual subclass features ON TOP of also getting access to more spells. I agree that the four elements monk could use more "non spell mimic" abilities, but that still doesn't fix the underlying issue of only getting one new spell at every subclass level and having to use less of the main class' abilities.
For four elements monk to be fixed without giving it spell slots, it needs to have a lower ki cost to use the spells and/or needs unique and flavorful subclass features which work in tandem with its unique spellcasting. The ki fueled attack feature from Tashas is a nice quick-fix, but it still doesn't make the class much better.
Hold up.
Do Not make the mistake of comparing 1/3 casters to full casters. It's dubious to even compare half casters like the Paladin and the Ranger to full Casters. They just do not compare. But When you are comparing. The 4 elements monk actually comes closer to the spell casting of a Full Caster than just about any other one does. They may not be able to cast as high of level spells but they cast so many more of the spells that they have that they come the closest if your just talking about damage. This is partly because of the limited numbers of spell slots. Which the 4 elements monk gets closest too when your getting regular short rests amongst combats. It's just spread out a bit more than with a traditional caster. But the truth is that throughout a long day and with things like Arcane Recovery stopping at 5th level if your going to make use of it. They are still using plenty of 3rd or even 4th level spells in their castings that are actually doing similar damage to the 4 elements version of the spells.
Your claim that the EK and the AT are getting class features instead of just spells on top of it is also a bit of a smoke screen. Because ALL of those features. They are all to do what the 4 elements monk is already doing. They are all designed to try to mix the spell casting in, or in the case of the blade singer to mix in a bit of martial ability. But they all do it with somewhat limited success. Limited Success that is seen as just fine because it's familiar enough and people basically multi-class to similar effect enough that people have gotten blind to many of the failings of it. Those Features to blend them together, some of which are fairly lackluster and sometimes given more power than they actually have by players and DM's are required to make the the mixes actually work. Those class features have to be there to do what the 4 element monk is already doing. Blending spell caster and core class. Without them people would almost certainly in general and many would call them the worst subclasses in the game and point out all the ways that multiclassing would be better. And even with these mostly built in. For the most part these 1/2 casters and 1/3 casters are still entirely forgoing either their martial side or their magical side when they want to use the other. So they are often making a choice about what kind of character they want to be from round to round and working within the frame work of restrictions based upon that. Casting has issues that Martial doesn't and vice versa. The only one that even gets close to getting away from the issue of choosing are the EK and the Ranger but with the EK that's only at high level. Otherwise your just mixing in Cantrips for the most part but you can really only do that with certain cantrips otherwise your doing it at disadvantage, meaning that it has to be one of the 3 or 4 melee based cantrips (Half of the over hyping of GFB for example is that there are so few others that it really competes against) or you have to cast ones that are saving throw based, Or you have to somehow disengage from the enemy to be able to cast the spell. All things the 4 Elements monk can do much more easily. They also have another problem. Those spell slots can only be used for spells and nothing else. They can't be turned into some kind of combat maneuver for the EK. They can't be turned into some kind of skill bonus or extra sneak attack dice for the AT or anything like that. If you don't give up being a fighter or a Rogue for a turn to cast those spells then you they just don't do anything at all. They might as well not be there. You need to go out of your way and set one of your classes aside to use them up.
And let's look at the whole Eating up all the Ki Argument a bit more to address this next point in the argument.
First of all. Using up all of your Ki quickly and then not being able to do any monk things. This is not a 4 elements problem as your proclaiming it. This is a monk Problem in general. We've all seen the posts where people don't like monks because they used all of their ki up on stunning strikes and flurry of blows in a single round just to get a stun off or complained that they focused on patient defense and then weren't doing any damage and the enemies didn't attack them so it was a waste and you shouldn't do it, or they spent all their ki on FoB but got obliterated in fights when they took damage so monks of any kind just suck and have to be fixed because they decided to play their monk like a face tank, and usually mixed into those complaints that by round 3 they were entirely out of Ki and couldn't do any of the special monk stuff at all because they can't help burning through it like water because they don't want to waste it or guides told them it's vital to get stunning strike to work, which is the exact same argument being made against 4 elements monk but 4 elements is getting any of the thinking through by more experienced monk players that they would give and respond to the new players problems with.
So let's take this same problem and look at it a little differently. Let's Take that same 4 elements monk at level 11 and has just learned fireball. What happens when they cast their spells more in line with Paladin and the Ranger's spell slots for 3rd level spells instead? With just the couple of rests we have been working with, we can now reduce them to casting 3 fireballs. That ends up being just 12 Ki out of their 33 Total for the day (11 x 3 for each period between rests). This means that you have 21 Ki points to do other things with throughout the day. Any kind of monk things that you want out of it. You could keep casting spells to fall more in line with with the other spell levels if you want, but you don't have to. The Real Advantage here is the versatility. This allows us a number of turns of FoB if that's what we want to do, Or let's you use patient defense or disengage from enemies, They let you step of the wind to get to place on the battlefield that your enemies can't reach, and Because your a 4 elements monk and the best build for that is Wisdom Primary you can stunning blows and do it more effectively than many other monks of other subclasses. You can spend a couple of those ki points to do something like Water Whip and yank that lumbering BBEG with not the best Dex right to your tank for just 2 of those Ki, Or yank it back to your tank if it got away from it and then use another ki to disengage to not be there to be punished for it. Or you can use 2 ki to use unbroken air and your speed to move in and knock an enemy skirmisher away from your ranged characters if they are doing something like threatening your mage or your healer in the party. You can do all or some or combinations of these kinds of things with 4 elements monk. And your "spell slots" aren't restricted to only being spell slots. They can be used to fuel anything that you want to do.
Now... let's change it up again Just to cover more basis while we're at it and deepen our understanding further.
What if you have only a couple of enemies and Fireball just isn't worth casting? Or alternately, You've made a 4 elements monk but you've gone the only route guides tell you about which is Dex until maxed and then Wisdom secondary. This is where Fangs of the Fire Snake Shines most. This is an ability that is immune to counterspelling, dispelling, and doesn't trigger mageslayer for starters, but there is a lot more. For starters with those same 4 Ki points at level 11 you've now augmented your martial hits to be reach and deal fire (which only costs 1 of those ki), So you can make your normal 3 hits that are d8's at this point and potentially +5 from attribute bonus, but you've also made each one do an additional D10 of damage. This means that each individual attack that you do for those ki are going to do an average of 14 damage and a maximum of 23, so if all 3 of those attacks hit your enemy you've now done an average damage of 42 and a max damage of 69. We don't really have to stop here with this one power either. On any or all of those three hits you can ki dump like any monk and stunning Strike still on top of it, And this combines with something like Eldritch Claw tattoo for even more damage (average of 9 and max of 18 more if all 3 hit). This is damage that falls roughly in line with the Kensei using a long bow making 3 shots of their own through something like Tasha's, except that their average damage is a little bit higher and more consistant, their range is longer, and they can do the same trick a bit more sustainably but with an increased chance to miss to deal with. The Kensei can remove the greater miss chance issue if they spend roughly 6 ki in that same turn when discounting variables and just talking about numerical modifiers (Kensei can manage an average damage per shot of 19 with a max damage of 23 for a total of 57 average damage and 69 max damage). This can all be done on an out of the box 4 elements monk with no changes, and not even a feat like the Kensei despite being considered so bad and weak. if you did want to throw a feat in just for fairness of character building resources, just put in the choice of Elemental Adept-Fire and suddenly mere resistance isn't an issue for either Fangs of the Fire Snake or Fireball.
This often overlooked power right in plain sight with 4 elements monk that is often missed is part of the reason 4 elements monk does not need more Elemental Disciplines that don't just cast the same old spells. There is a lot of potential in having more things that basically function like these non-spell based disciplines to choose from. Just really look at them. I'll even compare them at level 11 and 4 ki points just for ease of comparison.
Water Whip is going to do 5d10 at this point and be a Dex save. This is an average damage of 25 and a max damage of 50 with half damage if the save is succeeded. The same is true for Fist of the Unbroken Air but with a strength saving throw. Both of which come with potential to reposition foes by a decently large amount or Unbroken Air can knock them prone. This damage is actually comparable to fireball which has an average damage of 24 and a max damage of 28 on a single target but instead of repositioning it is AoE which is fireballs real strength. Not bad for a couple moves that you can pick up at level 3 and now thanks to Tasha's you can actually make an additional attack on top of the damage they already do which is not bad for a couple of moves you can pick up at level 3 and just scaled up a little.
Other Monk Subclasses would give up quite a few features and be level 11 to be able to get All 3 of these abilities at their disposal, Sometimes even at the same costs and with little chance of them scaling and possibly limitations on how they could be used or with hard limits per day on the number of times they can be used, but 4 elements Monk actually can have all 3 of these by level 6 if they really want to, and their only limiting factor and drawback is that they don't have a lot of ki to make use of them a bunch of times. If the 4 elements monk had just a few more disciplines like these the 4 elements monk would not be considered weak. The complaint would be "why weren't the other disciplines like these ones?" instead and griping about how 4 elements is supposed to be about having choices and ways you can build your character but it doesn't feel that way and things like that.
Fateless is mostly right here, y'all. (I only say "mostly" because they're written a couple novels and I have only perused them.)
It's as simple as this: View Lvl3 ED's as first level spells. View Lvl6 ED's as second level spells. So on and so forth.
So let's look at this from an actual third-caster's perspective of when they get those spells (third, seventh, thirteenth, and nineteenth levels)...
Level 3: EKs and ATs get two first level slots per long rest. They know three spells and a few cantrips. Four Elements Monks get, effectively, a cantrip and one spell, but they can cast that spell as many as three times per long rest (due to ki recharge on 2 short rests). That would still allow them to use a few Martial Arts abilities as well -- or, alternatively, more ways to use your spells slots so your resources aren't wasted. Honestly, probably a draw between the two -- you exchange some spells known for more casting ability over the course of a day.
Level 7: EKs and ATs get four first level slots and two second level slots per long rest. They know five spells and a few cantrips. Four Elements Monks (optimized) get three spells known and no cantrips, assuming you dropped Elemental Attunement at level six. Assuming two short rests per long rest, they have 21 ki to be spread across those spells, which cost 2-3 ki each. You can cast a second level spell six times during a day, or three second level spells and six first level spells. We're seeing a pattern -- the Four Elements Monks get 50% more casting ability than other third-casters if you assume two short rests per day as recommended. And, again, if you don't need those spells, you can use your ki for other things. EKs and ATs don't get that option.
Level 13: Now the split for slots is 4/3/2 for EK and AT. They know ... plenty of spells. Our caster Monks know four spells. They get 39 ki, if you short rest twice in a day. That means nine castings of Fireball, or six Fireballs, three Shatters, and six Water Whips. The 50% increase in casting has fallen off, but we are still outdoing EKs and ATs.
Level 19: It gets complicated here, but long story short ... Monks get a few fifth level options. EKs and ATs never do. They still have more casting available to them due to full short rest recharge. They gain these things at the cost of more spells known.
Long story short: Four Elements Monks don't need as much "fixing" as general consensus would have you believe. Seriously, play one before you try to fix it.
Do you want my recommendations for making it slightly more fun to play (though mechanically, they are about as good as EKs, IMO)? Give them more spell options. Remove Elemental Attunement and replace it with cantrip options. Give them one cantrip with each new subclass ability, and allow them to gain two Disciplines at each subclass level. It's still less than EKs and ATs, but it's more than the paltry numbers they have now.
If you really think it is still lacking, give them some boilerplate options at each level, like EKs and ATs do. Small things like "once per short rest, change your Unarmed Strikes to fire/cold/lightning/thunder/acid damage for the rest of the turn", and "once per short rest, use your bonus action to gain resistance to fire/cold/lightning/thunder/acid damage until the end of your next turn". Thematic and simple.
What I'm picking up from all of you is that the class doesn't need to be rewritten. Rather, a few small tweaks such as lowering the ki-cost and giving them more spell/cantrip/discipline options would be a better way to go. Correct?
I did notice the length but it's hard to help it without arguing endlessly, and it's made even longer once you get into supporting details and examples to things unfortunately. Monk is in a lot of ways an advanced class when it comes to talking about how it works and mastering details of it.
The resisting elemental damage could already be done. Technically Protection from Energy is a perfectly thematic elemental based spell to be able to cast with ki, It's 3rd level so going by the book abilities as a template it would be gained at level 11 and cost 4 ki to cast but it would last an hour. Though I understand that your going for kind of a more generic non-spell version of something like this which is why you stated it the way that you did.
For the Elements and unarmed strikes. I also believe they deserve something more than the all to easy, and what is feel is a lousy solution of "Oh your hits just do this damage for the turn." They've got so much more flavor and they really deserve something like more versions of Fangs of the Fire Snake. 1 ki changes the damage type and maybe provides an additional effect. then each melee attack you make can be modified if you wish to do the 1d10 damage. It would take some work to find something that isn't too overwhelming. Splash Damage is common for acid but that might be a bit much when combined with 4 melee attacks so maybe instead it has some potential to entangle them or slow their speed. Perhaps Lightning (commonly seen as air) could do something like illuminate them similar to fairy fire so that they can't hide. Things like that.
Instead of editing because online is fighting with me right now. One other thing came to mind. When it comes to the Discipline Elemental Attunement. There is something to keep in mind. Elemental Attunement is basically like an Element based Prestidigitation or Thaumaturgy Cantrip. It in fact does a lot of the same things that these spells do in part. Missing just a few things like flavoring food or making an outright booming voice. But it's a Cantrip that like these other two can really be stretched much farther than it should be if your DM will allow you to like they do with either of these other two Cantrips. The only thing that is lacking is a combat mechanic which is the main reason why everybody calls it bad. They think martial character and just think Cantrip that is combat viable.
One of my 4 Elements monks without overstepping the bounds of the cantrip too much based upon it's wording was actually able to deal with the heat very near a volcano when we had to fight fire elementals and the DM let me forgo making environmental checks from the heat which had potential for dehydration/exhaustion effects for example. But a lot of it is purely Role Playing Flavor just like that's all Prestidigitation and Thaumaturgy are actually good for.
What I'm picking up from all of you is that the class doesn't need to be rewritten. Rather, a few small tweaks such as lowering the ki-cost and giving them more spell/cantrip/discipline options would be a better way to go. Correct?
As I said in my first post. I'd be careful about lowering the costs... It comes with a lot of risks of upping things too much on something that is already pretty strong when actually used right. That's why my current suggestion is to actually give just a little bit more ki. It's easier to potentially scale and the risks are smaller with similar rewards.
What I'm picking up from all of you is that the class doesn't need to be rewritten. Rather, a few small tweaks such as lowering the ki-cost and giving them more spell/cantrip/discipline options would be a better way to go. Correct?
As I said in my first post. I'd be careful about lowering the costs... It comes with a lot of risks of upping things too much on something that is already pretty strong when actually used right. That's why my current suggestion is to actually give just a little bit more ki. It's easier to potentially scale and the risks are smaller with similar rewards.
What is functionally different about lowering ki cost vs giving a few more ki? The only thing that stands out to me is giving more viability to FOB and Stunning Strike since now they have a lower relative cost (FOB at level 3 for 1/3 of your ki is much different from FOB at level 3 for 1/5 of your ki).
I personally found that lowering cost by 1 ki for all EDs is a good compromise. I'd recommend doing that or offering more EDs at each level.
I do concede that 4 elements monk can cast what few spells they know more often then the 1/3 casters, but there are still some issues I have with it.
1) I dislike that the only "cantrip-like" ability 4 elements gets is effectively prestidigitation. Its useful sure, but not something you can fall back on to feel like a master of the elements when you run out of ki between short rests. I would like some sort of damaging elemental ability that doesn't cost ki (even if it is only as powerful or less powerful than a cantrip)
2) The number of spells they know is lacking. Sure, they can cast the ones they do know super often, but without a wide array to choose from it makes you less versatile compared to the 1/3 casters.
3) The spells they get should not be the only subclass features this subclass gets.
For eldritch knight, even if we ignore the abilities that allow it to attack as a bonus action after casting a cantrip or spell (something 4 elements can now do as well thanks to Tashas), they still get all of the following things in addition to spells to cast: the ability to summon their weapon from anywhere on the same plane of existence, the ability to impose disadvantage on saving throws against your spells by hitting an enemy (very good for a Gish), and the ability to teleport when they action surge.
For arcane trickster, along with all the spells they learn and spell slots they get they can do the following: use mage hand in new and interesting ways to interact with the environment, the ability to impose disadvantage on saving throws against your spells for creatures you are hidden from, the ability to use mage hand to effectively give yourself the Help action on an attack (plays well with the rogue's base features), the ability to counterspell a creature and temporarily learn that spell for yourself.
Giving the monk spells to cast and slowly increasing how often they can cast them is great, but the subclass feels lackluster when the only thing you get at your key subclass levels is one new spell known. Learning more spells and getting more slots to cast them are just things the 1/3 caster classes get passively along with all that other stuff. The four elements subclass should give the player more features that either play into their base monk class or play off of their unique elemental casting.
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Yes, Way of the Four Elements Monks would be a lot better with access to things like elemental cantrips (looking at you, Shape Water). Their core design is ass-backwards such that as new spells come out, there's no way for the Monk to pick them up, unlike with 1/3 casters.
I agree with what you've said, which essentially boils down to " they need some more versatility".
First recommendation: At level three, give them an option of one cantrip from Control Flames, Gust, Mold Earth, and Shape Water. Additionally, one cantrip from Produce Flame, Frostbite, Thunderclap, and Ray of Frost. Each of those cover Fire, Air, Earth, and Water, respectively (though you might be able to find some others that fit as well, in which case go for it). Maybe add one more at each subclass level.
Second recommendation: Give them two Elemental Disciplines at each subclass level. They'll still only end up with eight total, but combine that with 2-5 cantrips in addition to it and you get more of the elemental caster feel.
Finally, and this goes more for WOTC than anyone else ... expand their spell options. It's silly that Earth Tremor isn't on their list. Or Warding Wind. Update it for the new sourcebooks. It'd be hard to run a blanket statement for what spells they can learn, but I would start with a description something like this:
Any spell that can deal acid, cold, fire, lightning, or thunder damage can be learned by a Monk of the Four Elements. Additionally, any spell that includes the words "Fire", "Flame", "Stone", "Earth", "Wind", "Air", "Ice", or "Water" in its name can be learned by a Monk of the Four Elements. Additional spells may be added to this spell list at the discretion of the DM.
As for non-spell subclass abilities, sure. There are blanket options I've suggested upthread, such as the option to turn your Unarmed Strikes into elemental damage once per rest, or short-term resistance to elemental damage. I don't think they are necessary (Monks in general get more toys to play with than base Fighters or Rogues, IMO), but it shouldn't be difficult to come up with simple solutions.
Thank you, Fateless. I haven’t had a chance to play a monk, let alone 4 elements monk, and never would have understood their value if you hadn’t broken it down so well. I would have been like many others, presumably, that just read all the complaints and skipped right over it.
I’ve had my own thoughts on 4 elements monks in other threads and still wish they would have spent more time with elemental disciplines that weren’t just casting spells, but more unique abilities like Fangs of the fire snake and Water whip.
the new draconic UA seems to have more elemental spells, if you want to go that route.
In the end I would be happy if there were more elemental disciplines and you learn more of them, for versatility.
Edit: this might be a dumb question but with ED’s like Water Whip, it says it does 3d10 + 1d10 for each additional Ki point you spend. I assume you state how many points you are spending up front? Is there a limit like there is for up casting ED spells? Or can you just dump all your Ki to try and take out the BBEG quickly?
I'm sure I'm not alone when it comes to the opinion: The Way of the Four Elements subclass is the weakest Monk subclass, if not one of the weakest in the game. Plenty of people have taken their own perspective on this subclass and tried to revise it into something better. I'm trying to do the same. Simply put, I believe the core problems with this subclass are the spell progression and the ki point cost. So here's my idea:
I would also add a whole new set of elemental disciplines and spells. Each discipline would have a level prerequisite and a cantrip prerequisite. The primary purpose would be to allow for player customization. You could focus entirely on a single element and become an absolute master of it, or you could branch out and choose many different elements to learn, essentially exchanging power for versatility.
What do you think?
Monks already forgo any material costs to the way that they do it. It's all done through their ki. Which makes it one of the only ways to cast a couple of their spells on the list actually worth it. Granted at least one of them is gotten so late that it's still not really worth it.
So this is not actually a change.
Also. I would suggest really playing it and getting to know the way it works if you want to change things. Due to the fact that most Elemental Disciplines do things like work off of saving throws. Your best off prioritizing Wisdom and getting just enough Dex to keep your martial arts hitting fairly regularly until Wisdom is maxed out. This is a very different play style than what is taught in any Monk Guide. Many don't even acknowledge it exists, or for that matter acurately explain the pro's and con's to dex based monk play and when some things aren't as useful as they indicate (such as Stunning Strike).
If your looking to Alter the Class. There is always room for more Elemental Disciplines for Starters. They were designed for more to be added and even suggest doing such in the way it's written up using what is there as a guide. Now saying that I want to put two things out there to keep in mind.
Just lowering Cost of Elemental Disciplines has a danger to it. It's a dramatic upswing in power for 4 Elements Monks. Not only does it make anything cheaper but it makes things Immediately upcastable when you attain them. And most of them are not only fairly upcastable but also can be cast a lot more often than other similar 1/2 and 1/3 spell casters because of how Ki works in conjunction with short rest. Lowering Ki costs means higher level castings out of the gate and your suggestion actually turns this up to 11. Specially when combined to with the ki expenditure progression that is attached to Elemental Disciplines.
I'll use fireball as an example for what I mean about costs. Just because it's a spell everybody sees and drools over and wants to juts unleash on everything.
When you get it at 11th level. You can cast a level 3 spell without any changes for 4 ki the way the 4 elements monk casts it at this level. You can already cast this spell 2 times per short rest just out of the box. If you get just 2 short rests throughout the day and you focus towards casting fireballs in fights. You are now able to cast this spell 6 times a day where any other 1/2 or 1/3 caster is picking this spell level up at either 9th or 13th level respectively. 1/2 Casters are only able to cast 3 spells of this level total for the entire day at this same level and obviously 1/3 aren't casting them at all.
When you level up to 13th level, when you are casting nothing but Fireballs with your ki. Your now capable of casting 9 base level fireballs a day on 2 short rests or 6 level 4 fireballs. This is the point where 1/2 casters are Just getting a single 4th level spell for the entire day and other 1/3 casters are just getting their first 2 level 3 spells.
By level 17. Your actually casting 2 5th level fireballs per short rest for a total of 6 following the same situations of 2 short rests in a day where 1/2 caster are casting just 1 5th level spell from their spell slots and the other 1/3 casters will never be able to upcast any spells of this level purely with their spell casting slots.
What your suggesting is that they be able to cast 4th level spells fireballs at level 11. 5th level fireballs at level 13 and 6th level fireballs at 17 and to be able to do this many more times than any other hybrid caster in the game. This is a dramatic bump in power for the 4 elements monk. This is quite of bit of power jump in the martial caster hybrid that really needs to be considered and weight out fully. Because the Reality is that if they want to focus on spell casting Monks get overall more spell slots for their small handful of spells and the casting level more akin to half casters while representing more 1/3 casters in style. And they Do their casting in a style of a Sorcerer using their Sorcery points on spell slots but at a much more favorable exchange rate than the Sorcerer's get.
Now my suggestions for the Class and I've stated them in other threads before.
First 1 is that instead of lowering costs. Consider maybe an option for giving slightly more Ki to offset the weight of the costs a bit. My preffered suggestion is 1 more ki point than a normal monk at each level of play currently. So each time you pick up elemental disciplines you increase your max possible by +1. Putting you at a total of 24 to 25 total at level 20 depending on how you seperate the tiers. Now this is a boost in power and I'm not sure if it needs toned back when short rests are taken into account. Partly because I haven't gotten to do much testing. But it seems helpful and allows the 4 elements Monk to monk a little more along with casting. But it also means that if you really want to focus on Elemental Disciplines they are doing them just that little bit more in between each rest.
My second suggestion is Allow them to get 2 elemental disciplines at each of the levels after third that they pick up an elemental discipline. This will allow them to get a bit more variety to be able to use. Because it boosts you from 5 that you can use up to 8. if you want them to have even more choice maybe consider giving them 3 per each point they gain elemental disciplines for a total of 12. But the Cantrips are basically useless. People look at them and say they want them. And think they want the damage out of control flames or something like that. But Elemental Affinity already does most of what they do anyway. Breaking it down into the more traditional elemental mage ones just means that your wasting more slots on Cantrips and less slots on actual worthwhile powers. And with That being Said. A few more Elemental Disciplines in General is a good idea. There are a lot of them that just aren't the list that would be useful or even iconic. Or use Fangs of the fire Snake to make something that more matches a different element that you are preferring. Or one of the other non-spell disciplines into a different element with a slightly different style.
But i can tell you from understanding some of how to build them and playing a couple different 4 elements monks. The Tweaks do not need to be as nearly as big as most people make them. And to many are caught up not just with the idea of benders. But playing the Avatar himself. The one that is admitted to break the rules of even his own universe that they now want to break the rules of the D&D universe as well. And nothing needs to be carried out that far to make the 4 elements workable.
I had a new idea: make Elemental Monks 1/3 casters. Not only would it run off of a well tested system that works for Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters, it would provide an opportunity for the creation of new elemental spells (which are honestly quite scarce)
Giving them access to all evocation spells regardless of spell list might be interesting; not sure how that would stack up with the Eldritch Knight per se. Spell schools are often arbitrary, and you can find two spells that do functionally the same thing in two different schools. Evocation and Transmutation from one class might be a good way to give them dual school access like EKs and ATs, if the "all evocations everywhere" design is too underpowered.
Agree...they should just get spells from any list and flavor as you will. They gave them both the best spell list at least (wizard) but there are some absolutely great spells on the paladin, ranger, and druid lists that would make a lot of sense for fighters.
Smite spells in particular is a glaring omission from the Eldritch Knight.
My alternative has been to give them the 1/3rd caster progression on Pact Slots (Like the Profane Soul Bloodhunter subclass) which to me is more interesting.
I actually tried writing up a 1/3 caster variant of the Four Elements Monk, which you can look at here if you are interested. One thing thats a bit limiting is the number of "elemental" spells for any singular spell list can be somewhat lacking, so although its a bit messier I instead limited the spells they can take to what I call "nature attributes" with a particular attribute being associated with certain types of damage or an effect the spell produces (working under the assumption that the player and DM will reflavor the spell's appearance to match one of the four elements).
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Yeah I had a similar mock up but for the Pact Slot progression. I had it so when they cast a spell with elemental damage they could swap to any other element for a ki cost.
I gave them 2 pact slots per short rest so they could feel more free to spend ki to augment spells like that. At 11th level I believe I let them use a BA to attack if they cast a spell as an action....Tasha's lets them do this now if they spend ki during their action so it would be roughly the same.
Overall I think monks need another resource pool as their main issue is Ki hungry subclass abilities that stack with class abilities.
You guys do realize that 4 elements monks already do 1/3 casting, But actually better, the way they are right? The Fact that they don't use a traditional spell slot system doesn't actually change that. And turning them to a spell slot system doesn't actually help. The Truth is that one of the Strengths of the 4 elements Monk is that it doesn't play by the cookie cutter system that all the others do.
Things like EK's and AT's have a ridiculously small number of spells that they can have as well and actually have less casting than the 4 elements monk. The 4 elements monk gets somewhat fewer. Which can be mitigated through simply giving them more Elemental disciplines but they actually get far more castings. On top of that they have no spell level limits to what they can know. If they really wish They can basically turn all of the Elemental Disciplines either into non-leveled non-spell-mimic abilities or high level abilities. Something no other 1/3 caster can do either. Every other requires a mix of low and high level spells that cannot be escaped and limited ability to shift the breakdown of the spell levels of them around.
Making them look more like every other 1/3 caster just gets in their way and actually ruins a lot of their flavor because the more you try to force traditional casting into them then the more that you actually disconnect the subclass from the Parent class. With spell slots things like ki Fueled strikes doesn't work. The 4 Elements monk, thanks in part to optional abilities in Tasha's, already basically does what things like Blade Singer and EK have to go out of their way spending features of various class levels to be able to do. which is to mix their core class with the second class they have been hybridized into. EK itself for example doesn't actually mostly solve this issue until high level in fact While Arcane Trickster and Blade Singer never really fix it at all. Rogues and AT's for example max out at a possible 13 spells total that they can know at maximum level.
Of the Half casters Paladin's max out at having just 15 spells on hand but gain the benefit that it's easier to switch out their known spells, but the Ranger only has 11 total spells and works exactly like the EK and AT, except that they have more unique spells suited specifically to them in their spell list.
You get the Same Fix just by Upping the number of Elemental Disciplines there are and by giving the 4 elements monk More of them that they have access to at level up. Raising it up to 2 each point you recieve elemental Disciplines gets you up to 8, while you still have better potential spell slots and better potential for upcasting them, and more of them can be higher level spells/abilities if you wish. And if you go so far to give 3 at each of those increase points you end up with 12 Disciplines at your disposal which is basically the equivalent of the known spells of the half and third casters, while still having all of the increased Benefits that 4 elements monks enjoy.
The ultimate Problem with 4 elements Monks is not the power level of the class. Most people don't really understand it, don't take the time to learn it, rely on the incorrect information that is spread by others before them and then seek to fix it without understanding what they are trying to fix. The Truth is that the 4 elements monk is fairly powerful as far as monks are concerned and with that power they can actually do things that other monks cannot really do. Which is bring a different style of combat and control to play that other monks just simply do not get. But all that power comes at a cost that has to be kept in mind and balanced as well.
If you really want to Tweak the subclass. Get a lot of play in with it. Try a lot of different things and try them under a number of just scenario's and be willing to have things not work sometimes while your testing. Figure out what they do well and what they do poorly. Then smooth out a few of the glaring issues without going overboard or fill in a few of the gaps. What the 4 Elements monk could use more than anything is not actually more spells. But what it could really use is more Elemental Disciplines that do not just mimic-spells. It needs more things like Water Whip, and Unbroken Air, and Fangs of the Fire Snake that are Elemental and supernatural but aren't necessarily just outright copies of spells that don't use material components, but such disciplines also need carefully designed since they are things that can't just be blocked by Dispel magic like all of the fireballs you can cast with Flames of the Phoenix.
The main issue that many people complain about with Four Elements that is still not addressed here is that because it uses their ki points to cast (and the cost is so high) the monks lose out on being able to use other monk class abilities because of it. Flurry of Blows, Patient Defense, Step of the Wind, Stunning Strike and more all rely on monks using their ki points. While yes, four element monks can cast their spells fairly often, thats only if they make the choice to basically forgo using any of the main class' abilities to only use ki points for their spell. The subclass takes away from the main class.
On top of that, as you mention, the number of spells they get is far fewer than other casters. What is worse, is that their only subclass abilities are to get more spells. Arcane Tricksters and Eldritch Knights both get actual subclass features ON TOP of also getting access to more spells. I agree that the four elements monk could use more "non spell mimic" abilities, but that still doesn't fix the underlying issue of only getting one new spell at every subclass level and having to use less of the main class' abilities.
For four elements monk to be fixed without giving it spell slots, it needs to have a lower ki cost to use the spells and/or needs unique and flavorful subclass features which work in tandem with its unique spellcasting. The ki fueled attack feature from Tashas is a nice quick-fix, but it still doesn't make the class much better.
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Hold up.
Do Not make the mistake of comparing 1/3 casters to full casters. It's dubious to even compare half casters like the Paladin and the Ranger to full Casters. They just do not compare. But When you are comparing. The 4 elements monk actually comes closer to the spell casting of a Full Caster than just about any other one does. They may not be able to cast as high of level spells but they cast so many more of the spells that they have that they come the closest if your just talking about damage. This is partly because of the limited numbers of spell slots. Which the 4 elements monk gets closest too when your getting regular short rests amongst combats. It's just spread out a bit more than with a traditional caster. But the truth is that throughout a long day and with things like Arcane Recovery stopping at 5th level if your going to make use of it. They are still using plenty of 3rd or even 4th level spells in their castings that are actually doing similar damage to the 4 elements version of the spells.
Your claim that the EK and the AT are getting class features instead of just spells on top of it is also a bit of a smoke screen. Because ALL of those features. They are all to do what the 4 elements monk is already doing. They are all designed to try to mix the spell casting in, or in the case of the blade singer to mix in a bit of martial ability. But they all do it with somewhat limited success. Limited Success that is seen as just fine because it's familiar enough and people basically multi-class to similar effect enough that people have gotten blind to many of the failings of it. Those Features to blend them together, some of which are fairly lackluster and sometimes given more power than they actually have by players and DM's are required to make the the mixes actually work. Those class features have to be there to do what the 4 element monk is already doing. Blending spell caster and core class. Without them people would almost certainly in general and many would call them the worst subclasses in the game and point out all the ways that multiclassing would be better. And even with these mostly built in. For the most part these 1/2 casters and 1/3 casters are still entirely forgoing either their martial side or their magical side when they want to use the other. So they are often making a choice about what kind of character they want to be from round to round and working within the frame work of restrictions based upon that. Casting has issues that Martial doesn't and vice versa. The only one that even gets close to getting away from the issue of choosing are the EK and the Ranger but with the EK that's only at high level. Otherwise your just mixing in Cantrips for the most part but you can really only do that with certain cantrips otherwise your doing it at disadvantage, meaning that it has to be one of the 3 or 4 melee based cantrips (Half of the over hyping of GFB for example is that there are so few others that it really competes against) or you have to cast ones that are saving throw based, Or you have to somehow disengage from the enemy to be able to cast the spell. All things the 4 Elements monk can do much more easily. They also have another problem. Those spell slots can only be used for spells and nothing else. They can't be turned into some kind of combat maneuver for the EK. They can't be turned into some kind of skill bonus or extra sneak attack dice for the AT or anything like that. If you don't give up being a fighter or a Rogue for a turn to cast those spells then you they just don't do anything at all. They might as well not be there. You need to go out of your way and set one of your classes aside to use them up.
And let's look at the whole Eating up all the Ki Argument a bit more to address this next point in the argument.
First of all. Using up all of your Ki quickly and then not being able to do any monk things. This is not a 4 elements problem as your proclaiming it. This is a monk Problem in general. We've all seen the posts where people don't like monks because they used all of their ki up on stunning strikes and flurry of blows in a single round just to get a stun off or complained that they focused on patient defense and then weren't doing any damage and the enemies didn't attack them so it was a waste and you shouldn't do it, or they spent all their ki on FoB but got obliterated in fights when they took damage so monks of any kind just suck and have to be fixed because they decided to play their monk like a face tank, and usually mixed into those complaints that by round 3 they were entirely out of Ki and couldn't do any of the special monk stuff at all because they can't help burning through it like water because they don't want to waste it or guides told them it's vital to get stunning strike to work, which is the exact same argument being made against 4 elements monk but 4 elements is getting any of the thinking through by more experienced monk players that they would give and respond to the new players problems with.
So let's take this same problem and look at it a little differently. Let's Take that same 4 elements monk at level 11 and has just learned fireball. What happens when they cast their spells more in line with Paladin and the Ranger's spell slots for 3rd level spells instead? With just the couple of rests we have been working with, we can now reduce them to casting 3 fireballs. That ends up being just 12 Ki out of their 33 Total for the day (11 x 3 for each period between rests). This means that you have 21 Ki points to do other things with throughout the day. Any kind of monk things that you want out of it. You could keep casting spells to fall more in line with with the other spell levels if you want, but you don't have to. The Real Advantage here is the versatility. This allows us a number of turns of FoB if that's what we want to do, Or let's you use patient defense or disengage from enemies, They let you step of the wind to get to place on the battlefield that your enemies can't reach, and Because your a 4 elements monk and the best build for that is Wisdom Primary you can stunning blows and do it more effectively than many other monks of other subclasses. You can spend a couple of those ki points to do something like Water Whip and yank that lumbering BBEG with not the best Dex right to your tank for just 2 of those Ki, Or yank it back to your tank if it got away from it and then use another ki to disengage to not be there to be punished for it. Or you can use 2 ki to use unbroken air and your speed to move in and knock an enemy skirmisher away from your ranged characters if they are doing something like threatening your mage or your healer in the party. You can do all or some or combinations of these kinds of things with 4 elements monk. And your "spell slots" aren't restricted to only being spell slots. They can be used to fuel anything that you want to do.
Now... let's change it up again Just to cover more basis while we're at it and deepen our understanding further.
What if you have only a couple of enemies and Fireball just isn't worth casting? Or alternately, You've made a 4 elements monk but you've gone the only route guides tell you about which is Dex until maxed and then Wisdom secondary. This is where Fangs of the Fire Snake Shines most. This is an ability that is immune to counterspelling, dispelling, and doesn't trigger mageslayer for starters, but there is a lot more. For starters with those same 4 Ki points at level 11 you've now augmented your martial hits to be reach and deal fire (which only costs 1 of those ki), So you can make your normal 3 hits that are d8's at this point and potentially +5 from attribute bonus, but you've also made each one do an additional D10 of damage. This means that each individual attack that you do for those ki are going to do an average of 14 damage and a maximum of 23, so if all 3 of those attacks hit your enemy you've now done an average damage of 42 and a max damage of 69. We don't really have to stop here with this one power either. On any or all of those three hits you can ki dump like any monk and stunning Strike still on top of it, And this combines with something like Eldritch Claw tattoo for even more damage (average of 9 and max of 18 more if all 3 hit). This is damage that falls roughly in line with the Kensei using a long bow making 3 shots of their own through something like Tasha's, except that their average damage is a little bit higher and more consistant, their range is longer, and they can do the same trick a bit more sustainably but with an increased chance to miss to deal with. The Kensei can remove the greater miss chance issue if they spend roughly 6 ki in that same turn when discounting variables and just talking about numerical modifiers (Kensei can manage an average damage per shot of 19 with a max damage of 23 for a total of 57 average damage and 69 max damage). This can all be done on an out of the box 4 elements monk with no changes, and not even a feat like the Kensei despite being considered so bad and weak. if you did want to throw a feat in just for fairness of character building resources, just put in the choice of Elemental Adept-Fire and suddenly mere resistance isn't an issue for either Fangs of the Fire Snake or Fireball.
This often overlooked power right in plain sight with 4 elements monk that is often missed is part of the reason 4 elements monk does not need more Elemental Disciplines that don't just cast the same old spells. There is a lot of potential in having more things that basically function like these non-spell based disciplines to choose from. Just really look at them. I'll even compare them at level 11 and 4 ki points just for ease of comparison.
Water Whip is going to do 5d10 at this point and be a Dex save. This is an average damage of 25 and a max damage of 50 with half damage if the save is succeeded. The same is true for Fist of the Unbroken Air but with a strength saving throw. Both of which come with potential to reposition foes by a decently large amount or Unbroken Air can knock them prone. This damage is actually comparable to fireball which has an average damage of 24 and a max damage of 28 on a single target but instead of repositioning it is AoE which is fireballs real strength. Not bad for a couple moves that you can pick up at level 3 and now thanks to Tasha's you can actually make an additional attack on top of the damage they already do which is not bad for a couple of moves you can pick up at level 3 and just scaled up a little.
Other Monk Subclasses would give up quite a few features and be level 11 to be able to get All 3 of these abilities at their disposal, Sometimes even at the same costs and with little chance of them scaling and possibly limitations on how they could be used or with hard limits per day on the number of times they can be used, but 4 elements Monk actually can have all 3 of these by level 6 if they really want to, and their only limiting factor and drawback is that they don't have a lot of ki to make use of them a bunch of times. If the 4 elements monk had just a few more disciplines like these the 4 elements monk would not be considered weak. The complaint would be "why weren't the other disciplines like these ones?" instead and griping about how 4 elements is supposed to be about having choices and ways you can build your character but it doesn't feel that way and things like that.
Fateless is mostly right here, y'all. (I only say "mostly" because they're written a couple novels and I have only perused them.)
It's as simple as this: View Lvl3 ED's as first level spells. View Lvl6 ED's as second level spells. So on and so forth.
So let's look at this from an actual third-caster's perspective of when they get those spells (third, seventh, thirteenth, and nineteenth levels)...
Level 3: EKs and ATs get two first level slots per long rest. They know three spells and a few cantrips. Four Elements Monks get, effectively, a cantrip and one spell, but they can cast that spell as many as three times per long rest (due to ki recharge on 2 short rests). That would still allow them to use a few Martial Arts abilities as well -- or, alternatively, more ways to use your spells slots so your resources aren't wasted. Honestly, probably a draw between the two -- you exchange some spells known for more casting ability over the course of a day.
Level 7: EKs and ATs get four first level slots and two second level slots per long rest. They know five spells and a few cantrips. Four Elements Monks (optimized) get three spells known and no cantrips, assuming you dropped Elemental Attunement at level six. Assuming two short rests per long rest, they have 21 ki to be spread across those spells, which cost 2-3 ki each. You can cast a second level spell six times during a day, or three second level spells and six first level spells. We're seeing a pattern -- the Four Elements Monks get 50% more casting ability than other third-casters if you assume two short rests per day as recommended. And, again, if you don't need those spells, you can use your ki for other things. EKs and ATs don't get that option.
Level 13: Now the split for slots is 4/3/2 for EK and AT. They know ... plenty of spells. Our caster Monks know four spells. They get 39 ki, if you short rest twice in a day. That means nine castings of Fireball, or six Fireballs, three Shatters, and six Water Whips. The 50% increase in casting has fallen off, but we are still outdoing EKs and ATs.
Level 19: It gets complicated here, but long story short ... Monks get a few fifth level options. EKs and ATs never do. They still have more casting available to them due to full short rest recharge. They gain these things at the cost of more spells known.
Long story short: Four Elements Monks don't need as much "fixing" as general consensus would have you believe. Seriously, play one before you try to fix it.
Do you want my recommendations for making it slightly more fun to play (though mechanically, they are about as good as EKs, IMO)? Give them more spell options. Remove Elemental Attunement and replace it with cantrip options. Give them one cantrip with each new subclass ability, and allow them to gain two Disciplines at each subclass level. It's still less than EKs and ATs, but it's more than the paltry numbers they have now.
If you really think it is still lacking, give them some boilerplate options at each level, like EKs and ATs do. Small things like "once per short rest, change your Unarmed Strikes to fire/cold/lightning/thunder/acid damage for the rest of the turn", and "once per short rest, use your bonus action to gain resistance to fire/cold/lightning/thunder/acid damage until the end of your next turn". Thematic and simple.
What I'm picking up from all of you is that the class doesn't need to be rewritten. Rather, a few small tweaks such as lowering the ki-cost and giving them more spell/cantrip/discipline options would be a better way to go. Correct?
I did notice the length but it's hard to help it without arguing endlessly, and it's made even longer once you get into supporting details and examples to things unfortunately. Monk is in a lot of ways an advanced class when it comes to talking about how it works and mastering details of it.
The resisting elemental damage could already be done. Technically Protection from Energy is a perfectly thematic elemental based spell to be able to cast with ki, It's 3rd level so going by the book abilities as a template it would be gained at level 11 and cost 4 ki to cast but it would last an hour. Though I understand that your going for kind of a more generic non-spell version of something like this which is why you stated it the way that you did.
For the Elements and unarmed strikes. I also believe they deserve something more than the all to easy, and what is feel is a lousy solution of "Oh your hits just do this damage for the turn." They've got so much more flavor and they really deserve something like more versions of Fangs of the Fire Snake. 1 ki changes the damage type and maybe provides an additional effect. then each melee attack you make can be modified if you wish to do the 1d10 damage. It would take some work to find something that isn't too overwhelming. Splash Damage is common for acid but that might be a bit much when combined with 4 melee attacks so maybe instead it has some potential to entangle them or slow their speed. Perhaps Lightning (commonly seen as air) could do something like illuminate them similar to fairy fire so that they can't hide. Things like that.
Instead of editing because online is fighting with me right now. One other thing came to mind. When it comes to the Discipline Elemental Attunement. There is something to keep in mind. Elemental Attunement is basically like an Element based Prestidigitation or Thaumaturgy Cantrip. It in fact does a lot of the same things that these spells do in part. Missing just a few things like flavoring food or making an outright booming voice. But it's a Cantrip that like these other two can really be stretched much farther than it should be if your DM will allow you to like they do with either of these other two Cantrips. The only thing that is lacking is a combat mechanic which is the main reason why everybody calls it bad. They think martial character and just think Cantrip that is combat viable.
One of my 4 Elements monks without overstepping the bounds of the cantrip too much based upon it's wording was actually able to deal with the heat very near a volcano when we had to fight fire elementals and the DM let me forgo making environmental checks from the heat which had potential for dehydration/exhaustion effects for example. But a lot of it is purely Role Playing Flavor just like that's all Prestidigitation and Thaumaturgy are actually good for.
As I said in my first post. I'd be careful about lowering the costs... It comes with a lot of risks of upping things too much on something that is already pretty strong when actually used right. That's why my current suggestion is to actually give just a little bit more ki. It's easier to potentially scale and the risks are smaller with similar rewards.
What is functionally different about lowering ki cost vs giving a few more ki? The only thing that stands out to me is giving more viability to FOB and Stunning Strike since now they have a lower relative cost (FOB at level 3 for 1/3 of your ki is much different from FOB at level 3 for 1/5 of your ki).
I personally found that lowering cost by 1 ki for all EDs is a good compromise. I'd recommend doing that or offering more EDs at each level.
I do concede that 4 elements monk can cast what few spells they know more often then the 1/3 casters, but there are still some issues I have with it.
1) I dislike that the only "cantrip-like" ability 4 elements gets is effectively prestidigitation. Its useful sure, but not something you can fall back on to feel like a master of the elements when you run out of ki between short rests. I would like some sort of damaging elemental ability that doesn't cost ki (even if it is only as powerful or less powerful than a cantrip)
2) The number of spells they know is lacking. Sure, they can cast the ones they do know super often, but without a wide array to choose from it makes you less versatile compared to the 1/3 casters.
3) The spells they get should not be the only subclass features this subclass gets.
For eldritch knight, even if we ignore the abilities that allow it to attack as a bonus action after casting a cantrip or spell (something 4 elements can now do as well thanks to Tashas), they still get all of the following things in addition to spells to cast: the ability to summon their weapon from anywhere on the same plane of existence, the ability to impose disadvantage on saving throws against your spells by hitting an enemy (very good for a Gish), and the ability to teleport when they action surge.
For arcane trickster, along with all the spells they learn and spell slots they get they can do the following: use mage hand in new and interesting ways to interact with the environment, the ability to impose disadvantage on saving throws against your spells for creatures you are hidden from, the ability to use mage hand to effectively give yourself the Help action on an attack (plays well with the rogue's base features), the ability to counterspell a creature and temporarily learn that spell for yourself.
Giving the monk spells to cast and slowly increasing how often they can cast them is great, but the subclass feels lackluster when the only thing you get at your key subclass levels is one new spell known. Learning more spells and getting more slots to cast them are just things the 1/3 caster classes get passively along with all that other stuff. The four elements subclass should give the player more features that either play into their base monk class or play off of their unique elemental casting.
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Yes, Way of the Four Elements Monks would be a lot better with access to things like elemental cantrips (looking at you, Shape Water). Their core design is ass-backwards such that as new spells come out, there's no way for the Monk to pick them up, unlike with 1/3 casters.
I agree with what you've said, which essentially boils down to " they need some more versatility".
First recommendation: At level three, give them an option of one cantrip from Control Flames, Gust, Mold Earth, and Shape Water. Additionally, one cantrip from Produce Flame, Frostbite, Thunderclap, and Ray of Frost. Each of those cover Fire, Air, Earth, and Water, respectively (though you might be able to find some others that fit as well, in which case go for it). Maybe add one more at each subclass level.
Second recommendation: Give them two Elemental Disciplines at each subclass level. They'll still only end up with eight total, but combine that with 2-5 cantrips in addition to it and you get more of the elemental caster feel.
Finally, and this goes more for WOTC than anyone else ... expand their spell options. It's silly that Earth Tremor isn't on their list. Or Warding Wind. Update it for the new sourcebooks. It'd be hard to run a blanket statement for what spells they can learn, but I would start with a description something like this:
As for non-spell subclass abilities, sure. There are blanket options I've suggested upthread, such as the option to turn your Unarmed Strikes into elemental damage once per rest, or short-term resistance to elemental damage. I don't think they are necessary (Monks in general get more toys to play with than base Fighters or Rogues, IMO), but it shouldn't be difficult to come up with simple solutions.
Thank you, Fateless. I haven’t had a chance to play a monk, let alone 4 elements monk, and never would have understood their value if you hadn’t broken it down so well. I would have been like many others, presumably, that just read all the complaints and skipped right over it.
I’ve had my own thoughts on 4 elements monks in other threads and still wish they would have spent more time with elemental disciplines that weren’t just casting spells, but more unique abilities like Fangs of the fire snake and Water whip.
the new draconic UA seems to have more elemental spells, if you want to go that route.
In the end I would be happy if there were more elemental disciplines and you learn more of them, for versatility.
Edit: this might be a dumb question but with ED’s like Water Whip, it says it does 3d10 + 1d10 for each additional Ki point you spend. I assume you state how many points you are spending up front? Is there a limit like there is for up casting ED spells? Or can you just dump all your Ki to try and take out the BBEG quickly?
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