Any time someone says something like “A _______ class/subclass can do that better.” I instantly disregard what that person says moving forward. That kind of response can be made about most anything in this game. It’s dismissive with no real constructive intent or desire for conversation.
In no way shape or form does a subclass ability-set need or should build on base class abilities. Both doing so and not work and exist in this game. We are talking about doubling down and hyper focusing on an idea, or diversification and broadening of a character’s abilities.
That's.... Not what I said....I said the basic design behind the subclass is bad as it pulls you in too many directions and away from your core class.
I think this true in ANY subclass feature.
The best subclass features are ones that work with your class in interesting ways.
4E monk is not that.... It is like a bad MC that has no synergy
Fangs of the fire snake and the several 3d10 options are written in a way that allows you to dump the ki points into them only on a successful hit or a failed enemy saving throw (with no ki cap on the 3d10 ones). So in that way (like a divine smite or some battle master maneuvers) they are VERY ki efficient.
You can dump ki into stunning strike all day with no failed enemy saving throw, burning through all kinds of ki for nothing. But you only spend a couple of ki for a guaranteed small effect for an elemental ability, and can choose to crank up the hurt only when you know it’s going to work 100% for sure. I’m looking at you crit fishers.
Fangs of the fire snake and the several 3d10 options are written in a way that allows you to dump the ki points into them only on a successful hit or a failed enemy saving throw (with no ki cap on the 3d10 ones). So in that way (like a divine smite or some battle master maneuvers) they are VERY ki efficient.
You can dump ki into stunning strike all day with no failed enemy saving throw, burning through all kinds of ki for nothing. But you only spend a couple of ki for a guaranteed small effect for an elemental ability, and can choose to crank up the hurt only when you know it’s going to work 100% for sure. I’m looking at you crit fishers.
You add the d10s before they creature rolls the save and its a save not an attack so its nothing like a smite spell as it doesnt "crit" like a smite does.
1 ki for 1d10 damage is not very efficient IMO...Especially since this is in replacement of your normal attacks which are generally d8s or d10s if you have racial weapon prof. you can use.
So you are doing 3d10 damage (16.5) targeting a save and spending 2 ki vs. 1d8+5 (19.5) damage for your attacks and can get ADV and potentially crit and spend NO ki you are talking a more apples to apples comparison....the 2 ki cost is not super great at early levels as that represent half or more of your ki pool to move one creature 10ft and prone while doing LESS damage than just attacking.
Do not get me wrong they are still good abilities as the riders (10 ft move and prone) are very helpful in the right situations but they are not super powerful for what you are spending.
You can blow all your resources on a single fist and if the creature makes the save....well that was a horrible use of ki IMO.
The critical hit is of course for the fangs ability. Those d10s can be added on a successful hit. Just like divine smite. Making it very potent and efficient.
The 3d10 abilities can be pumped after the enemy saving throw fails. It says that in the rule. Making these very effective and ki use sensitive.
Please don’t compare the abilities only to level 17 monk martial arts die. That is silly. Because you also have 17 ki at that point. Please don’t only compare a 2 ki cost to level 3 monk’s ki pool. That is silly. They have very few ki for anything at that point.
The critical hit is of course for the fangs ability. Those d10s can be added on a successful hit. Just like divine smite. Making it very potent and efficient.
The 3d10 abilities can be pumped after the enemy saving throw fails. It says that in the rule. Making these very effective and ki use sensitive.
Please don’t compare the abilities only to level 17 monk martial arts die. That is silly. Because you also have 17 ki at that point. Please don’t only compare a 2 ki cost to level 3 monk’s ki pool. That is silly. They have very few ki for anything at that point.
Honestly…
I am not....you get a d8 at level 1 with quarterstaff or spear.....so its a fair comparison.
D10 if you have a racial weapon prof like longsword (elf) or warhammer (dwarf) which makes it even worse for 4E.
And no I do not agree a single target 3d10 for 2 ki is a good investment....you could use that to flurry and attempt 1 stun instead which will produce more damage and potentially a better incapacitation condition than prone.
4 attacks is Spear 2d8+10 and unarmed flurry 2d6+10= 36.5 damage for 1 ki
Fist = 3d10 action then d8+5 BA attack (Ki fueled) = 35.5 damage for 2 ki
So you are doing almost the same damage for 1 more ki point spent with the benefit being a proned enemy 10 ft away.....is that good? Sure its not bad...but its not amazing and its basically saying you are spending 1 ki to attempt to prone/move an enemy. Its fine but its not amazing by any means.
Vs. you spend an extra ki with your attacks to stun which is arguably better as it completely shuts their turn down, gives everyone ADV (prone targets are actually DIS for ranged attackers), and makes it so they cannot use reactions/legendary reactions at all.
If you are then spending 1 ki for more d10s....ooof thats a bad investment IMO....as you are only adding 5.5 damage per ki used and can easily burn through your resources on a single target damage.
Its not a smite at all as you do not crit on it so its not benefiting much from spending resources to add more die.
The critical hit is of course for the fangs ability. Those d10s can be added on a successful hit. Just like divine smite. Making it very potent and efficient.
The 3d10 abilities can be pumped after the enemy saving throw fails. It says that in the rule. Making these very effective and ki use sensitive.
Please don’t compare the abilities only to level 17 monk martial arts die. That is silly. Because you also have 17 ki at that point. Please don’t only compare a 2 ki cost to level 3 monk’s ki pool. That is silly. They have very few ki for anything at that point.
Honestly…
1) You are right, you can select to deal more damage on a hit
1a) but, you only ever deal an extra 1d10 fire damage. Unlike the EDs which mimic spell effects, you cannot "upcast" fangs of the fire snake to deal even more extra fire damage on a hit. The upcasting options you get to pour more ki into a ED only applies to ED spells. So, a single crit only gets you an extra 2d10 damage. Its not nothing, but it also isnt as scalable as a smite
2) When Optimus was talking about a d8/d10 for the attack action, they werent using the martial arts die. They were using the possibility that the monk is using a longsword/warhammer as a monk weapon for their attacks (per the new Tashas rule)
3) For Fist of Unbroken Air, it says you first spend ki point, then the creature makes a saving throw, then they take damage if they fail. You cant force the save and only choose to spend more ki point if they fail. The ki is an upfront cost.
3a) spending ki is part of the initial action. You cannot spend more ki afterwards, because the step in which you spend ki is at the start of the action. If this was the intent, they would explicitly state that you can spend extra ki afterwards like in the language of Fangs of the Fire Snake. I would agree with you if those abilities said something like "plus 1d10 bludgeoning damage per ki point if you spend additional ki when the creature fails its save"
3b) if nothing else, I do not believe there is any other ability in 5e for reference (which would set a precedent) that allows you to pump more resources after you know the result of the saving throw against a spell or class feature
Fist of Unbroken Air
You can create a blast of compressed air that strikes like a mighty fist. As an action, you can spend 2 ki points and choose a creature within 30 feet of you. That creature must make a Strength saving throw.On a failed save, the creature takes 3d10 bludgeoning damage, plus an extra 1d10 bludgeoning damage for each additional ki point you spend, and you can push the creature up to 20 feet away from you and knock it prone. On a successful save, the creature takes half as much damage, and you don't push it or knock it prone.
Water Whip
You can spend 2 ki points as an action to create a whip of water that shoves and pulls a creature to unbalance it. A creature that you can see that is within 30 feet of you must make a Dexterity saving throw. On a failed save, the creature takes 3d10 bludgeoning damage, plus an extra 1d10 bludgeoning damage for each additional ki point you spend, and you can either knock it prone or pull it up to 25 feet closer to you. On a successful save, the creature takes half as much damage, and you don't pull it or knock it prone.
Fangs of the Fire Snake
When you use the Attack action on your turn, you can spend 1 ki point to cause tendrils of flame to stretch out from your fists and feet. Your reach with your unarmed strikes increases by 10 feet for that action, as well as the rest of the turn. A hit with such an attack deals fire damage instead of bludgeoning damage, and if you spend 1 ki point when the attack hits, it also deals an extra 1d10 fire damage.
Neither of the sets of language for these 3d10 features allow you to pump it after a failed save. You have to commit the ki (plus extra) up front. Fangs of the Fire snake (by contrast) states two different times for spending ki : Initial and "when the attack hits."
1) and 1a) Right. On top of (for many opponents) getting a free disengage through your now 15' reach by spending 1 ki point (same as disengage, but now you get it and flurry of blows (if you want it for 1 ki) on the same turn), you are getting the option to get 1d10 for 1 ki up to 3 or 4 times (depending on if you flurry of blows also). It is scalable in the sense that you can do up to an extra 4d10 of additional damage (about the same as a 3rd or 4th level divine smite). That is really good! Remember, these are short rest resources. If you think ki are scarse then the poor battle master and paladin is screwed. The ED spells can be scaled but have limits. The other ED can be scaled but do NOT have limits.
2) Unless the discussion is specifically about an optional rules expansion book, I never include it in any of my posts, as I don't assume everyone in the world is using (and spent money on) every possible rule released ( and sold) by WotC.
3), 3a), and 3b) The way those abilities are worded you absolutely pump them on a failed enemy saving throw.
As an action, you can spend 2 ki points and choose a creature within 30 feet of you.
That creature must make a Strength saving throw.
On a failed save, the creature takes 3d10 bludgeoning damage, plus an extra 1d10 bludgeoning damage for each additional ki point you spend, and you can push the creature up to 20 feet away from you and knock it prone.
On a successful save, the creature takes half as much damage, and you don’t push it or knock it prone.
I even would go so far as to say you CAN'T pump it if the enemy succeeds their saving throw, even if you wanted to. It's 2 ki to activate the ability, make a saving throw, on a fail..., on a success..., that's how it's written.
1) and 1a) Right. On top of (for many opponents) getting a free disengage through your now 15' reach by spending 1 ki point (same as disengage, but now you get it and flurry of blows (if you want it for 1 ki) on the same turn), you are getting the option to get 1d10 for 1 ki up to 3 or 4 times (depending on if you flurry of blows also). It is scalable in the sense that you can do up to an extra 4d10 of additional damage (about the same as a 3rd or 4th level divine smite). That is really good! Remember, these are short rest resources. If you think ki are scarse then the poor battle master and paladin is screwed. The ED spells can be scaled but have limits. The other ED can be scaled but do NOT have limits.
2) Unless the discussion is specifically about an optional rules expansion book, I never include it in any of my posts, as I don't assume everyone in the world is using (and spent money on) every possible rule released ( and sold) by WotC.
3), 3a), and 3b) The way those abilities are worded you absolutely pump them on a failed enemy saving throw.
As an action, you can spend 2 ki points and choose a creature within 30 feet of you.
That creature must make a Strength saving throw.
On a failed save, the creature takes 3d10 bludgeoning damage, plus an extra 1d10 bludgeoning damage for each additional ki point you spend, and you can push the creature up to 20 feet away from you and knock it prone.
On a successful save, the creature takes half as much damage, and you don’t push it or knock it prone.
I even would go so far as to say you CAN'T pump it if the enemy succeeds their saving throw, even if you wanted to. It's 2 ki to activate the ability, make a saving throw, on a fail..., on a success..., that's how it's written.
I disagree that you can pump before but DMs might see it that way....generally you have to pick to upcast before so I would go with convention myself.
Smite is different in the fact that it specifically calls out you can decide to smite AFTER you hit where this does not....so YMMV I guess.
I do think that the fire fang is the better bang for buck use of Ki....1 ki for reach is pretty legit and honestly is what I would use most of the time as a 4E if I chose to play one. The extra damage is weak tho as I would not spend 1 ki to do 1d10 damage most of the time and would rather spend it on flurry.
1) and 1a) Right. On top of (for many opponents) getting a free disengage through your now 15' reach by spending 1 ki point (same as disengage, but now you get it and flurry of blows (if you want it for 1 ki) on the same turn), you are getting the option to get 1d10 for 1 ki up to 3 or 4 times (depending on if you flurry of blows also). It is scalable in the sense that you can do up to an extra 4d10 of additional damage (about the same as a 3rd or 4th level divine smite). That is really good! Remember, these are short rest resources. If you think ki are scarse then the poor battle master and paladin is screwed. The ED spells can be scaled but have limits. The other ED can be scaled but do NOT have limits.
2) Unless the discussion is specifically about an optional rules expansion book, I never include it in any of my posts, as I don't assume everyone in the world is using (and spent money on) every possible rule released ( and sold) by WotC.
3), 3a), and 3b) The way those abilities are worded you absolutely pump them on a failed enemy saving throw.
As an action, you can spend 2 ki points and choose a creature within 30 feet of you.
That creature must make a Strength saving throw.
On a failed save, the creature takes 3d10 bludgeoning damage, plus an extra 1d10 bludgeoning damage for each additional ki point you spend, and you can push the creature up to 20 feet away from you and knock it prone.
On a successful save, the creature takes half as much damage, and you don’t push it or knock it prone.
I even would go so far as to say you CAN'T pump it if the enemy succeeds their saving throw, even if you wanted to. It's 2 ki to activate the ability, make a saving throw, on a fail..., on a success..., that's how it's written.
Although I can certainly see that interpretation based on how it is written, I still stand by that the "spend" in the second part of the ability is meant to refer to how much you spend up front. I do not think it is intended that you are able to choose to deal more damage AFTER you know the enemy fails. I think this is the case because while there are plenty of abilities that let you pump extra damage on a weapon attack, there are none that I am aware of that let you pump extra damage after you know the result of a saving throw.
Actually, the more I think about it the weirder it gets. So, the language for upcasting EDs is as follows.
Casting Elemental Spells. Some elemental disciplines allow you to cast spells. See chapter 10 for the general rules of spellcasting. To cast one of these spells, you use its casting time and other rules, but you don't need to provide material components for it.
Once you reach 5th level in this class, you can spend additional ki points to increase the level of an elemental discipline spell that you cast, provided that the spell has an enhanced effect at a higher level, as Burning Hands does. The spell's level increases by 1 for each additional ki point you spend. For example, if you are a 5th-level monk and use Sweeping Cinder Strike to cast Burning Hands, you can spend 3 ki points to cast it as a 2nd-level spell (the discipline's base cost of 2 ki points plus 1).
The maximum number of ki points you can spend to cast a spell in this way (including its base ki point cost and any additional ki points you spend to increase its level) is determined by your monk level, as shown in the Spells and Ki Points table.
The portion underline indicates that you cannot use the upcasting mechanic for non-spell EDs like Fangs of the Fire Snake or Fist of Unbroken Air. But that begs the question, in the case of Fist of Unbroken Air/Water Whip, how do you add extra ki points if you cant upcast upfront?
This seems to support your interpretation, which is that instead of upcasting a spell ED (which has a ki point limit based on level), you can simply introduce more as many extra ki points as you want after a failed save (a mechanic unique to those abilities). What this means is that at level 17, because they are not limited by the upcasting table like spells are, you could pump all 15 ki points into a failed save, causing a creature to take an extra 15d10 damage.
Personally, this seems way too strong to be RAI, and if thats how Fist of Unbroken Air/Water Whip actually worked I would see almost no value in taking any other ED. I feel like they meant for the upcasting limit to extend to other elemental disciplines as well. However, if we take RAW to the letter, it is possible to interpret it as allowing you to pump all of your remaining ki into a single effect on a saving throw you already know the creature failed, which is insane.
As for the question of "can you spend extra ki after a failed save" at this point the entirety of the language surrounding 4EM has me confused I dont know what to think anymore XD
Too strong for RAW?! Isn't this the weakest monk subclass?! Numbers below...
15d10 is an average of 82.5, using all of the short rest reset resources it has available for a "nova round". A level 17 battle master fighter with just a longsword, the dueling fighting style, two action surges, and 6d10 of maneuver dice (used for damage here) would do an average of 136.5 damage, in one round, using all of their damage dealing short rest reset resources. A paladin with the same longsword and dueling fighting style using their highest two spell slots (one 4th and one 5th) would do an average of 81.5 damage. And that is with long rest reset resources!
No one would ever spend that kind of resources on one roll of a die for an enemy saving throw. But for a buy-in of only 2 ki you're sitting at the table with a chance and the ability to nova blast a baddy. Fun, thematic, not overpowered, and not unheard of with other martial characters (divine smite, maneuvers, colossus slayer, etc.) On top of how the maximum ki for upcasting words are written, we have how those abilities are each written. Add to that how everyone thinks the 4E is terrible, and how that amount of damage is not unheard of with other martial type classes, I stand firm that it is not even a stretch of the wording of the rules. It is clear as day to me.
I read it like upcasting a spell for a spell caster. You chose the slot first then resolve the spell. You don’t cast, say, catapult as a 1st level spell then, if they fail their Dex save say you are upcasting using a higher level spell slot
Too strong for RAW?! Isn't this the weakest monk subclass?! Numbers below...
15d10 is an average of 82.5, using all of the short rest reset resources it has available for a "nova round". A level 17 battle master fighter with just a longsword, the dueling fighting style, two action surges, and 6d10 of maneuver dice (used for damage here) would do an average of 136.5 damage, in one round, using all of their damage dealing short rest reset resources. A paladin with the same longsword and dueling fighting style using their highest two spell slots (one 4th and one 5th) would do an average of 81.5 damage. And that is with long rest reset resources!
No one would ever spend that kind of resources on one roll of a die for an enemy saving throw. But for a buy-in of only 2 ki you're sitting at the table with a chance and the ability to nova blast a baddy. Fun, thematic, not overpowered, and not unheard of with other martial characters (divine smite, maneuvers, colossus slayer, etc.) On top of how the maximum ki for upcasting words are written, we have how those abilities are each written. Add to that how everyone thinks the 4E is terrible, and how that amount of damage is not unheard of with other martial type classes, I stand firm that it is not even a stretch of the wording of the rules. It is clear as day to me.
Again, I still think its one of the weaker subclasses because despite how the language can be interpretted, I do not think any of what I outline in the bottom section of my comment is actually RAI for the subclass. I still think the intention was 1) for EDs to all have the same upper limit on ki expenditure, despite some not being spells and 2) for there not to be an option to pump extra damage when you already know the creature is taking all of the damage (as such a feature is unprecedented for saving throw effects). Only adding damage on a success removes any risk vs reward for saving throw. Its one thing for a paladin to apply divine smite to an attack. Its another for a paladin to upcast its spell slot AFTER they know an enemy would fail its saving throw against a Smite spell.
Its fun to think about, but I doubt it is the way it is meant to play out. That being said, it is such a weird rules interaction that it probably is worth looking into more.
Too strong for RAW?! Isn't this the weakest monk subclass?! Numbers below...
15d10 is an average of 82.5, using all of the short rest reset resources it has available for a "nova round". A level 17 battle master fighter with just a longsword, the dueling fighting style, two action surges, and 6d10 of maneuver dice (used for damage here) would do an average of 136.5 damage, in one round, using all of their damage dealing short rest reset resources. A paladin with the same longsword and dueling fighting style using their highest two spell slots (one 4th and one 5th) would do an average of 81.5 damage. And that is with long rest reset resources!
No one would ever spend that kind of resources on one roll of a die for an enemy saving throw. But for a buy-in of only 2 ki you're sitting at the table with a chance and the ability to nova blast a baddy. Fun, thematic, not overpowered, and not unheard of with other martial characters (divine smite, maneuvers, colossus slayer, etc.) On top of how the maximum ki for upcasting words are written, we have how those abilities are each written. Add to that how everyone thinks the 4E is terrible, and how that amount of damage is not unheard of with other martial type classes, I stand firm that it is not even a stretch of the wording of the rules. It is clear as day to me.
I mean yeah if you pick the style that does the lowest DPR and use no feats then yeah its closer....
That would only be 72.5 damage not 81.5....unless you are assuming undead I guess?
But that paladin could do about 80-90% of that damage for several more rounds while the monk is tapped....its not terrible but its not like its amazing either.
The fact you pump that much Ki into something you would expect a much bigger pay off but its not really worth it IMO....if they make that save they are only taking 41 points of damage which is pretty lame...
Heck the Open Hand monk is outright killing things for 3 ki lol....or doing 10d10 on a success! I mean thats def more damage on a success than 4e for 18% of the cost.....
Too strong for RAW?! Isn't this the weakest monk subclass?! Numbers below...
15d10 is an average of 82.5, using all of the short rest reset resources it has available for a "nova round". A level 17 battle master fighter with just a longsword, the dueling fighting style, two action surges, and 6d10 of maneuver dice (used for damage here) would do an average of 136.5 damage, in one round, using all of their damage dealing short rest reset resources. A paladin with the same longsword and dueling fighting style using their highest two spell slots (one 4th and one 5th) would do an average of 81.5 damage. And that is with long rest reset resources!
No one would ever spend that kind of resources on one roll of a die for an enemy saving throw. But for a buy-in of only 2 ki you're sitting at the table with a chance and the ability to nova blast a baddy. Fun, thematic, not overpowered, and not unheard of with other martial characters (divine smite, maneuvers, colossus slayer, etc.) On top of how the maximum ki for upcasting words are written, we have how those abilities are each written. Add to that how everyone thinks the 4E is terrible, and how that amount of damage is not unheard of with other martial type classes, I stand firm that it is not even a stretch of the wording of the rules. It is clear as day to me.
Again, I still think its one of the weaker subclasses because despite how the language can be interpretted, I do not think any of what I outline in the bottom section of my comment is actually RAI for the subclass. I still think the intention was 1) for EDs to all have the same upper limit on ki expenditure, despite some not being spells and 2) for there not to be an option to pump extra damage when you already know the creature is taking all of the damage (as such a feature is unprecedented for saving throw effects). Only adding damage on a success removes any risk vs reward for saving throw. Its one thing for a paladin to apply divine smite to an attack. Its another for a paladin to upcast its spell slot AFTER they know an enemy would fail its saving throw against a Smite spell.
Its fun to think about, but I doubt it is the way it is meant to play out. That being said, it is such a weird rules interaction that it probably is worth looking into more.
I won't spend any more time stating my side of the conversation, but the fact that it is, in fact, an unprecedented idea means using spell slots as a comparison to how this ability works or doesn't work is just as valid/unvalid as using divine smite as a comparison.
In this game, when someone thinks something is bad, weak, terrible, or underpowered, I find that, 100% of the time, that person is either reading or using that thing incorrectly, reading or using it in the most harsh and restrictive way possible (typically for no good reason), or not playing the type of game that makes use of such a thing.
I find it difficult to hear people say something is terrible and then, at the same time, not be open to ways in which that thing might not be.
Too strong for RAW?! Isn't this the weakest monk subclass?! Numbers below...
15d10 is an average of 82.5, using all of the short rest reset resources it has available for a "nova round". A level 17 battle master fighter with just a longsword, the dueling fighting style, two action surges, and 6d10 of maneuver dice (used for damage here) would do an average of 136.5 damage, in one round, using all of their damage dealing short rest reset resources. A paladin with the same longsword and dueling fighting style using their highest two spell slots (one 4th and one 5th) would do an average of 81.5 damage. And that is with long rest reset resources!
No one would ever spend that kind of resources on one roll of a die for an enemy saving throw. But for a buy-in of only 2 ki you're sitting at the table with a chance and the ability to nova blast a baddy. Fun, thematic, not overpowered, and not unheard of with other martial characters (divine smite, maneuvers, colossus slayer, etc.) On top of how the maximum ki for upcasting words are written, we have how those abilities are each written. Add to that how everyone thinks the 4E is terrible, and how that amount of damage is not unheard of with other martial type classes, I stand firm that it is not even a stretch of the wording of the rules. It is clear as day to me.
Again, I still think its one of the weaker subclasses because despite how the language can be interpretted, I do not think any of what I outline in the bottom section of my comment is actually RAI for the subclass. I still think the intention was 1) for EDs to all have the same upper limit on ki expenditure, despite some not being spells and 2) for there not to be an option to pump extra damage when you already know the creature is taking all of the damage (as such a feature is unprecedented for saving throw effects). Only adding damage on a success removes any risk vs reward for saving throw. Its one thing for a paladin to apply divine smite to an attack. Its another for a paladin to upcast its spell slot AFTER they know an enemy would fail its saving throw against a Smite spell.
Its fun to think about, but I doubt it is the way it is meant to play out. That being said, it is such a weird rules interaction that it probably is worth looking into more.
I won't spend any more time stating my side of the conversation, but the fact that it is, in fact, an unprecedented idea means using spell slots as a comparison to how this ability works or doesn't work is just as valid/unvalid as using divine smite as a comparison.
In this game, when someone thinks something is bad, weak, terrible, or underpowered, I find that, 100% of the time, that person is either reading or using that thing incorrectly, reading or using it in the most harsh and restrictive way possible (typically for no good reason), or not playing the type of game that makes use of such a thing.
I find it difficult to hear people say something is terrible and then, at the same time, not be open to ways in which that thing might not be.
I mean I think we are being clear its not terrible...in fact I think I have said that about 4 times now.
Too strong for RAW?! Isn't this the weakest monk subclass?! Numbers below...
15d10 is an average of 82.5, using all of the short rest reset resources it has available for a "nova round". A level 17 battle master fighter with just a longsword, the dueling fighting style, two action surges, and 6d10 of maneuver dice (used for damage here) would do an average of 136.5 damage, in one round, using all of their damage dealing short rest reset resources. A paladin with the same longsword and dueling fighting style using their highest two spell slots (one 4th and one 5th) would do an average of 81.5 damage. And that is with long rest reset resources!
No one would ever spend that kind of resources on one roll of a die for an enemy saving throw. But for a buy-in of only 2 ki you're sitting at the table with a chance and the ability to nova blast a baddy. Fun, thematic, not overpowered, and not unheard of with other martial characters (divine smite, maneuvers, colossus slayer, etc.) On top of how the maximum ki for upcasting words are written, we have how those abilities are each written. Add to that how everyone thinks the 4E is terrible, and how that amount of damage is not unheard of with other martial type classes, I stand firm that it is not even a stretch of the wording of the rules. It is clear as day to me.
Again, I still think its one of the weaker subclasses because despite how the language can be interpretted, I do not think any of what I outline in the bottom section of my comment is actually RAI for the subclass. I still think the intention was 1) for EDs to all have the same upper limit on ki expenditure, despite some not being spells and 2) for there not to be an option to pump extra damage when you already know the creature is taking all of the damage (as such a feature is unprecedented for saving throw effects). Only adding damage on a success removes any risk vs reward for saving throw. Its one thing for a paladin to apply divine smite to an attack. Its another for a paladin to upcast its spell slot AFTER they know an enemy would fail its saving throw against a Smite spell.
Its fun to think about, but I doubt it is the way it is meant to play out. That being said, it is such a weird rules interaction that it probably is worth looking into more.
I won't spend any more time stating my side of the conversation, but the fact that it is, in fact, an unprecedented idea means using spell slots as a comparison to how this ability works or doesn't work is just as valid/unvalid as using divine smite as a comparison.
In this game, when someone thinks something is bad, weak, terrible, or underpowered, I find that, 100% of the time, that person is either reading or using that thing incorrectly, reading or using it in the most harsh and restrictive way possible (typically for no good reason), or not playing the type of game that makes use of such a thing.
I find it difficult to hear people say something is terrible and then, at the same time, not be open to ways in which that thing might not be.
I mean, WotC has definitely published some duds over the years (see SCAG & subclasses that were either corrected in later books or effectively abandoned). Stating that its the player's fault 100% of the time for not understanding the true value or ruling things wrong is giving the publishers too much credit. Sometimes things just arent as good as they can be. Despite the revelations and changes in perception this thread as a whole has done for me for 4EM, I still feel that as a whole it is lacking in several areas.
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Optimus, divine smite does 6d8 for a 5th level spell slot and 5d8 for a 4th level spell slot. That's [(1d8+1d8+2+5)*2 + (11d8)]. That is, in fact, 81.5.
The paladin could continue to pump weaker and weaker divine smite into attacks on subsequent rounds. Not at 80%-90% capacity mind you. All the while using up long rest resources. A monk gets all of the ki back after a short rest. 11+ ki in fact. Wash, rinse, repeat for the monk. Just like fighters and warlocks.
The way I read it you are spending only 2 ki if it doesn't work. If it does work it is all of that damage plus the punch and prone condition so the rest of the party can pummel the enemy, or you can knock them over a cliff, or whatever the situation demanded tactically. What does a warlock get out of using all three spell slots? That is the same thing here for the monk. After all spell slots are gone at level 11 a warlock is blasting for 31.5 a round. A spent monk is punching for 28.5 a round. Plus all of their individual class abilities that cost nothing.
3 ki for a level 17 ability is great. But it doesn't kill someone. It takes to 0 hp or does a lot of damage. It is also 2 turns worth of action economy. A 4E monk, at level 17, can do 10d10 damage in one turn using 9 ki and still have plenty of key left to finish that fight. ALSO, fireball. Low DPR monk subclass?!?! Fireball?!?!
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That's.... Not what I said....I said the basic design behind the subclass is bad as it pulls you in too many directions and away from your core class.
I think this true in ANY subclass feature.
The best subclass features are ones that work with your class in interesting ways.
4E monk is not that.... It is like a bad MC that has no synergy
Moving on to more constructive and less opinionated posts…
I change my answer on bumping wisdom before dexterity for the four elements monk. I would bump dexterity first.
I think you have to do both is the unfortunate answer... And much more so than regular monks.
WIS is so important for your DCs as you need every spell you cast to be more efficient since you get so few during short rests.
Dex fuels the rest of your kit so you are tied to that as well as you need it for AC and hitting on your attacks.
It's a complaint I have about monks in general as they have to spend all ASI on improvement of those two skills or they fall behind.
Monks can't really afford to take feats.
Fangs of the fire snake and the several 3d10 options are written in a way that allows you to dump the ki points into them only on a successful hit or a failed enemy saving throw (with no ki cap on the 3d10 ones). So in that way (like a divine smite or some battle master maneuvers) they are VERY ki efficient.
You can dump ki into stunning strike all day with no failed enemy saving throw, burning through all kinds of ki for nothing. But you only spend a couple of ki for a guaranteed small effect for an elemental ability, and can choose to crank up the hurt only when you know it’s going to work 100% for sure. I’m looking at you crit fishers.
You add the d10s before they creature rolls the save and its a save not an attack so its nothing like a smite spell as it doesnt "crit" like a smite does.
1 ki for 1d10 damage is not very efficient IMO...Especially since this is in replacement of your normal attacks which are generally d8s or d10s if you have racial weapon prof. you can use.
So you are doing 3d10 damage (16.5) targeting a save and spending 2 ki vs. 1d8+5 (19.5) damage for your attacks and can get ADV and potentially crit and spend NO ki you are talking a more apples to apples comparison....the 2 ki cost is not super great at early levels as that represent half or more of your ki pool to move one creature 10ft and prone while doing LESS damage than just attacking.
Do not get me wrong they are still good abilities as the riders (10 ft move and prone) are very helpful in the right situations but they are not super powerful for what you are spending.
You can blow all your resources on a single fist and if the creature makes the save....well that was a horrible use of ki IMO.
The critical hit is of course for the fangs ability. Those d10s can be added on a successful hit. Just like divine smite. Making it very potent and efficient.
The 3d10 abilities can be pumped after the enemy saving throw fails. It says that in the rule. Making these very effective and ki use sensitive.
Please don’t compare the abilities only to level 17 monk martial arts die. That is silly. Because you also have 17 ki at that point. Please don’t only compare a 2 ki cost to level 3 monk’s ki pool. That is silly. They have very few ki for anything at that point.
Honestly…
I am not....you get a d8 at level 1 with quarterstaff or spear.....so its a fair comparison.
D10 if you have a racial weapon prof like longsword (elf) or warhammer (dwarf) which makes it even worse for 4E.
And no I do not agree a single target 3d10 for 2 ki is a good investment....you could use that to flurry and attempt 1 stun instead which will produce more damage and potentially a better incapacitation condition than prone.
4 attacks is Spear 2d8+10 and unarmed flurry 2d6+10= 36.5 damage for 1 ki
Fist = 3d10 action then d8+5 BA attack (Ki fueled) = 35.5 damage for 2 ki
So you are doing almost the same damage for 1 more ki point spent with the benefit being a proned enemy 10 ft away.....is that good? Sure its not bad...but its not amazing and its basically saying you are spending 1 ki to attempt to prone/move an enemy. Its fine but its not amazing by any means.
Vs. you spend an extra ki with your attacks to stun which is arguably better as it completely shuts their turn down, gives everyone ADV (prone targets are actually DIS for ranged attackers), and makes it so they cannot use reactions/legendary reactions at all.
If you are then spending 1 ki for more d10s....ooof thats a bad investment IMO....as you are only adding 5.5 damage per ki used and can easily burn through your resources on a single target damage.
Its not a smite at all as you do not crit on it so its not benefiting much from spending resources to add more die.
1) You are right, you can select to deal more damage on a hit
1a) but, you only ever deal an extra 1d10 fire damage. Unlike the EDs which mimic spell effects, you cannot "upcast" fangs of the fire snake to deal even more extra fire damage on a hit. The upcasting options you get to pour more ki into a ED only applies to ED spells. So, a single crit only gets you an extra 2d10 damage. Its not nothing, but it also isnt as scalable as a smite
2) When Optimus was talking about a d8/d10 for the attack action, they werent using the martial arts die. They were using the possibility that the monk is using a longsword/warhammer as a monk weapon for their attacks (per the new Tashas rule)
3) For Fist of Unbroken Air, it says you first spend ki point, then the creature makes a saving throw, then they take damage if they fail. You cant force the save and only choose to spend more ki point if they fail. The ki is an upfront cost.
3a) spending ki is part of the initial action. You cannot spend more ki afterwards, because the step in which you spend ki is at the start of the action. If this was the intent, they would explicitly state that you can spend extra ki afterwards like in the language of Fangs of the Fire Snake. I would agree with you if those abilities said something like "plus 1d10 bludgeoning damage per ki point if you spend additional ki when the creature fails its save"
3b) if nothing else, I do not believe there is any other ability in 5e for reference (which would set a precedent) that allows you to pump more resources after you know the result of the saving throw against a spell or class feature
Fist of Unbroken Air
You can create a blast of compressed air that strikes like a mighty fist. As an action, you can spend 2 ki points and choose a creature within 30 feet of you. That creature must make a Strength saving throw.On a failed save, the creature takes 3d10 bludgeoning damage, plus an extra 1d10 bludgeoning damage for each additional ki point you spend, and you can push the creature up to 20 feet away from you and knock it prone. On a successful save, the creature takes half as much damage, and you don't push it or knock it prone.
Water Whip
You can spend 2 ki points as an action to create a whip of water that shoves and pulls a creature to unbalance it. A creature that you can see that is within 30 feet of you must make a Dexterity saving throw. On a failed save, the creature takes 3d10 bludgeoning damage, plus an extra 1d10 bludgeoning damage for each additional ki point you spend, and you can either knock it prone or pull it up to 25 feet closer to you. On a successful save, the creature takes half as much damage, and you don't pull it or knock it prone.
Fangs of the Fire Snake
When you use the Attack action on your turn, you can spend 1 ki point to cause tendrils of flame to stretch out from your fists and feet. Your reach with your unarmed strikes increases by 10 feet for that action, as well as the rest of the turn. A hit with such an attack deals fire damage instead of bludgeoning damage, and if you spend 1 ki point when the attack hits, it also deals an extra 1d10 fire damage.
Neither of the sets of language for these 3d10 features allow you to pump it after a failed save. You have to commit the ki (plus extra) up front. Fangs of the Fire snake (by contrast) states two different times for spending ki : Initial and "when the attack hits."
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1) and 1a) Right. On top of (for many opponents) getting a free disengage through your now 15' reach by spending 1 ki point (same as disengage, but now you get it and flurry of blows (if you want it for 1 ki) on the same turn), you are getting the option to get 1d10 for 1 ki up to 3 or 4 times (depending on if you flurry of blows also). It is scalable in the sense that you can do up to an extra 4d10 of additional damage (about the same as a 3rd or 4th level divine smite). That is really good! Remember, these are short rest resources. If you think ki are scarse then the poor battle master and paladin is screwed. The ED spells can be scaled but have limits. The other ED can be scaled but do NOT have limits.
2) Unless the discussion is specifically about an optional rules expansion book, I never include it in any of my posts, as I don't assume everyone in the world is using (and spent money on) every possible rule released ( and sold) by WotC.
3), 3a), and 3b) The way those abilities are worded you absolutely pump them on a failed enemy saving throw.
I even would go so far as to say you CAN'T pump it if the enemy succeeds their saving throw, even if you wanted to. It's 2 ki to activate the ability, make a saving throw, on a fail..., on a success..., that's how it's written.
I disagree that you can pump before but DMs might see it that way....generally you have to pick to upcast before so I would go with convention myself.
Smite is different in the fact that it specifically calls out you can decide to smite AFTER you hit where this does not....so YMMV I guess.
I do think that the fire fang is the better bang for buck use of Ki....1 ki for reach is pretty legit and honestly is what I would use most of the time as a 4E if I chose to play one. The extra damage is weak tho as I would not spend 1 ki to do 1d10 damage most of the time and would rather spend it on flurry.
Although I can certainly see that interpretation based on how it is written, I still stand by that the "spend" in the second part of the ability is meant to refer to how much you spend up front. I do not think it is intended that you are able to choose to deal more damage AFTER you know the enemy fails. I think this is the case because while there are plenty of abilities that let you pump extra damage on a weapon attack, there are none that I am aware of that let you pump extra damage after you know the result of a saving throw.
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Actually, the more I think about it the weirder it gets. So, the language for upcasting EDs is as follows.
Casting Elemental Spells. Some elemental disciplines allow you to cast spells. See chapter 10 for the general rules of spellcasting. To cast one of these spells, you use its casting time and other rules, but you don't need to provide material components for it.
Once you reach 5th level in this class, you can spend additional ki points to increase the level of an elemental discipline spell that you cast, provided that the spell has an enhanced effect at a higher level, as Burning Hands does. The spell's level increases by 1 for each additional ki point you spend. For example, if you are a 5th-level monk and use Sweeping Cinder Strike to cast Burning Hands, you can spend 3 ki points to cast it as a 2nd-level spell (the discipline's base cost of 2 ki points plus 1).
The maximum number of ki points you can spend to cast a spell in this way (including its base ki point cost and any additional ki points you spend to increase its level) is determined by your monk level, as shown in the Spells and Ki Points table.
The portion underline indicates that you cannot use the upcasting mechanic for non-spell EDs like Fangs of the Fire Snake or Fist of Unbroken Air. But that begs the question, in the case of Fist of Unbroken Air/Water Whip, how do you add extra ki points if you cant upcast upfront?
This seems to support your interpretation, which is that instead of upcasting a spell ED (which has a ki point limit based on level), you can simply introduce more as many extra ki points as you want after a failed save (a mechanic unique to those abilities). What this means is that at level 17, because they are not limited by the upcasting table like spells are, you could pump all 15 ki points into a failed save, causing a creature to take an extra 15d10 damage.
Personally, this seems way too strong to be RAI, and if thats how Fist of Unbroken Air/Water Whip actually worked I would see almost no value in taking any other ED. I feel like they meant for the upcasting limit to extend to other elemental disciplines as well. However, if we take RAW to the letter, it is possible to interpret it as allowing you to pump all of your remaining ki into a single effect on a saving throw you already know the creature failed, which is insane.
As for the question of "can you spend extra ki after a failed save" at this point the entirety of the language surrounding 4EM has me confused I dont know what to think anymore XD
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Too strong for RAW?! Isn't this the weakest monk subclass?! Numbers below...
15d10 is an average of 82.5, using all of the short rest reset resources it has available for a "nova round". A level 17 battle master fighter with just a longsword, the dueling fighting style, two action surges, and 6d10 of maneuver dice (used for damage here) would do an average of 136.5 damage, in one round, using all of their damage dealing short rest reset resources. A paladin with the same longsword and dueling fighting style using their highest two spell slots (one 4th and one 5th) would do an average of 81.5 damage. And that is with long rest reset resources!
No one would ever spend that kind of resources on one roll of a die for an enemy saving throw. But for a buy-in of only 2 ki you're sitting at the table with a chance and the ability to nova blast a baddy. Fun, thematic, not overpowered, and not unheard of with other martial characters (divine smite, maneuvers, colossus slayer, etc.) On top of how the maximum ki for upcasting words are written, we have how those abilities are each written. Add to that how everyone thinks the 4E is terrible, and how that amount of damage is not unheard of with other martial type classes, I stand firm that it is not even a stretch of the wording of the rules. It is clear as day to me.
I read it like upcasting a spell for a spell caster. You chose the slot first then resolve the spell. You don’t cast, say, catapult as a 1st level spell then, if they fail their Dex save say you are upcasting using a higher level spell slot
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Again, I still think its one of the weaker subclasses because despite how the language can be interpretted, I do not think any of what I outline in the bottom section of my comment is actually RAI for the subclass. I still think the intention was 1) for EDs to all have the same upper limit on ki expenditure, despite some not being spells and 2) for there not to be an option to pump extra damage when you already know the creature is taking all of the damage (as such a feature is unprecedented for saving throw effects). Only adding damage on a success removes any risk vs reward for saving throw. Its one thing for a paladin to apply divine smite to an attack. Its another for a paladin to upcast its spell slot AFTER they know an enemy would fail its saving throw against a Smite spell.
Its fun to think about, but I doubt it is the way it is meant to play out. That being said, it is such a weird rules interaction that it probably is worth looking into more.
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I mean yeah if you pick the style that does the lowest DPR and use no feats then yeah its closer....
And you are off for pally BTW....
1st Attack: 2d8+7 (Improved Divine Smite+ Duel FS) + 5d8 smite = 38.5
2nd Attack: = 2d8+7 +4d8 = 34
That would only be 72.5 damage not 81.5....unless you are assuming undead I guess?
But that paladin could do about 80-90% of that damage for several more rounds while the monk is tapped....its not terrible but its not like its amazing either.
The fact you pump that much Ki into something you would expect a much bigger pay off but its not really worth it IMO....if they make that save they are only taking 41 points of damage which is pretty lame...
Heck the Open Hand monk is outright killing things for 3 ki lol....or doing 10d10 on a success! I mean thats def more damage on a success than 4e for 18% of the cost.....
I won't spend any more time stating my side of the conversation, but the fact that it is, in fact, an unprecedented idea means using spell slots as a comparison to how this ability works or doesn't work is just as valid/unvalid as using divine smite as a comparison.
In this game, when someone thinks something is bad, weak, terrible, or underpowered, I find that, 100% of the time, that person is either reading or using that thing incorrectly, reading or using it in the most harsh and restrictive way possible (typically for no good reason), or not playing the type of game that makes use of such a thing.
I find it difficult to hear people say something is terrible and then, at the same time, not be open to ways in which that thing might not be.
Why when it is not written in the same way would it be the same as a spell caster, it's a monk.
I mean I think we are being clear its not terrible...in fact I think I have said that about 4 times now.
Its just not great either...its fine.
I mean, WotC has definitely published some duds over the years (see SCAG & subclasses that were either corrected in later books or effectively abandoned). Stating that its the player's fault 100% of the time for not understanding the true value or ruling things wrong is giving the publishers too much credit. Sometimes things just arent as good as they can be. Despite the revelations and changes in perception this thread as a whole has done for me for 4EM, I still feel that as a whole it is lacking in several areas.
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Optimus, divine smite does 6d8 for a 5th level spell slot and 5d8 for a 4th level spell slot. That's [(1d8+1d8+2+5)*2 + (11d8)]. That is, in fact, 81.5.
The paladin could continue to pump weaker and weaker divine smite into attacks on subsequent rounds. Not at 80%-90% capacity mind you. All the while using up long rest resources. A monk gets all of the ki back after a short rest. 11+ ki in fact. Wash, rinse, repeat for the monk. Just like fighters and warlocks.
The way I read it you are spending only 2 ki if it doesn't work. If it does work it is all of that damage plus the punch and prone condition so the rest of the party can pummel the enemy, or you can knock them over a cliff, or whatever the situation demanded tactically. What does a warlock get out of using all three spell slots? That is the same thing here for the monk. After all spell slots are gone at level 11 a warlock is blasting for 31.5 a round. A spent monk is punching for 28.5 a round. Plus all of their individual class abilities that cost nothing.
3 ki for a level 17 ability is great. But it doesn't kill someone. It takes to 0 hp or does a lot of damage. It is also 2 turns worth of action economy. A 4E monk, at level 17, can do 10d10 damage in one turn using 9 ki and still have plenty of key left to finish that fight. ALSO, fireball. Low DPR monk subclass?!?! Fireball?!?!