Too strong for RAW?! Isn't this the weakest monk subclass?! Numbers below...
15d10 is an average of 82.5, using all of the short rest reset resources it has available for a "nova round". A level 17 battle master fighter with just a longsword, the dueling fighting style, two action surges, and 6d10 of maneuver dice (used for damage here) would do an average of 136.5 damage, in one round, using all of their damage dealing short rest reset resources. A paladin with the same longsword and dueling fighting style using their highest two spell slots (one 4th and one 5th) would do an average of 81.5 damage. And that is with long rest reset resources!
No one would ever spend that kind of resources on one roll of a die for an enemy saving throw. But for a buy-in of only 2 ki you're sitting at the table with a chance and the ability to nova blast a baddy. Fun, thematic, not overpowered, and not unheard of with other martial characters (divine smite, maneuvers, colossus slayer, etc.) On top of how the maximum ki for upcasting words are written, we have how those abilities are each written. Add to that how everyone thinks the 4E is terrible, and how that amount of damage is not unheard of with other martial type classes, I stand firm that it is not even a stretch of the wording of the rules. It is clear as day to me.
Again, I still think its one of the weaker subclasses because despite how the language can be interpretted, I do not think any of what I outline in the bottom section of my comment is actually RAI for the subclass. I still think the intention was 1) for EDs to all have the same upper limit on ki expenditure, despite some not being spells and 2) for there not to be an option to pump extra damage when you already know the creature is taking all of the damage (as such a feature is unprecedented for saving throw effects). Only adding damage on a success removes any risk vs reward for saving throw. Its one thing for a paladin to apply divine smite to an attack. Its another for a paladin to upcast its spell slot AFTER they know an enemy would fail its saving throw against a Smite spell.
Its fun to think about, but I doubt it is the way it is meant to play out. That being said, it is such a weird rules interaction that it probably is worth looking into more.
I won't spend any more time stating my side of the conversation, but the fact that it is, in fact, an unprecedented idea means using spell slots as a comparison to how this ability works or doesn't work is just as valid/unvalid as using divine smite as a comparison.
In this game, when someone thinks something is bad, weak, terrible, or underpowered, I find that, 100% of the time, that person is either reading or using that thing incorrectly, reading or using it in the most harsh and restrictive way possible (typically for no good reason), or not playing the type of game that makes use of such a thing.
I find it difficult to hear people say something is terrible and then, at the same time, not be open to ways in which that thing might not be.
I mean, WotC has definitely published some duds over the years (see SCAG & subclasses that were either corrected in later books or effectively abandoned). Stating that its the player's fault 100% of the time for not understanding the true value or ruling things wrong is giving the publishers too much credit. Sometimes things just arent as good as they can be. Despite the revelations and changes in perception this thread as a whole has done for me for 4EM, I still feel that as a whole it is lacking in several areas.
You're right. That's fair. Not 100% of the time. WotC have made many erratas over the years. I apologize.
Optimus, divine smite does 6d8 for a 5th level spell slot and 5d8 for a 4th level spell slot. That's [(1d8+1d8+2+5)*2 + (11d8)]. That is, in fact, 81.5.
The paladin could continue to pump weaker and weaker divine smite into attacks on subsequent rounds. Not at 80%-90% capacity mind you. All the while using up long rest resources. A monk gets all of the ki back after a short rest. 11+ ki in fact. Wash, rinse, repeat for the monk. Just like fighters and warlocks.
The way I read it you are spending only 2 ki if it doesn't work. If it does work it is all of that damage plus the punch and prone condition so the rest of the party can pummel the enemy, or you can knock them over a cliff, or whatever the situation demanded tactically. What does a warlock get out of using all three spell slots? That is the same thing here for the monk. After all spell slots are gone at level 11 a warlock is blasting for 31.5 a round. A spent monk is punching for 28.5 a round. Plus all of their individual class abilities that cost nothing.
3 ki for a level 17 ability is great. But it doesn't kill someone. It takes to 0 hp or does a lot of damage. It is also 2 turns worth of action economy. A 4E monk, at level 17, can do 10d10 damage in one turn using 9 ki and still have plenty of key left to finish that fight. ALSO, fireball. Low DPR monk subclass?!?! Fireball?!?!
Fireball...at 11th level (Tier 3 of play).
Also, reducing a creature to 0 HP for 3 ki is huge. Sure, you need at least an extra turn to "finish them off", but chances are one of your allies can do that easy peasy lemon squeezy. OR Just use ki empowered strike since you spent ki as an action. Boom done.
15d10 seems nice, but it wont feel as nice if you spend all that on a creature with 200+ HP and then are left without ki for the rest of the fight. Whereas the open hand monk can spend 3 ki, if they fail deal 10d10 damage, and be set to rinse and repeat for the next several rounds.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews!Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
Too strong for RAW?! Isn't this the weakest monk subclass?! Numbers below...
15d10 is an average of 82.5, using all of the short rest reset resources it has available for a "nova round". A level 17 battle master fighter with just a longsword, the dueling fighting style, two action surges, and 6d10 of maneuver dice (used for damage here) would do an average of 136.5 damage, in one round, using all of their damage dealing short rest reset resources. A paladin with the same longsword and dueling fighting style using their highest two spell slots (one 4th and one 5th) would do an average of 81.5 damage. And that is with long rest reset resources!
No one would ever spend that kind of resources on one roll of a die for an enemy saving throw. But for a buy-in of only 2 ki you're sitting at the table with a chance and the ability to nova blast a baddy. Fun, thematic, not overpowered, and not unheard of with other martial characters (divine smite, maneuvers, colossus slayer, etc.) On top of how the maximum ki for upcasting words are written, we have how those abilities are each written. Add to that how everyone thinks the 4E is terrible, and how that amount of damage is not unheard of with other martial type classes, I stand firm that it is not even a stretch of the wording of the rules. It is clear as day to me.
Again, I still think its one of the weaker subclasses because despite how the language can be interpretted, I do not think any of what I outline in the bottom section of my comment is actually RAI for the subclass. I still think the intention was 1) for EDs to all have the same upper limit on ki expenditure, despite some not being spells and 2) for there not to be an option to pump extra damage when you already know the creature is taking all of the damage (as such a feature is unprecedented for saving throw effects). Only adding damage on a success removes any risk vs reward for saving throw. Its one thing for a paladin to apply divine smite to an attack. Its another for a paladin to upcast its spell slot AFTER they know an enemy would fail its saving throw against a Smite spell.
Its fun to think about, but I doubt it is the way it is meant to play out. That being said, it is such a weird rules interaction that it probably is worth looking into more.
I won't spend any more time stating my side of the conversation, but the fact that it is, in fact, an unprecedented idea means using spell slots as a comparison to how this ability works or doesn't work is just as valid/unvalid as using divine smite as a comparison.
In this game, when someone thinks something is bad, weak, terrible, or underpowered, I find that, 100% of the time, that person is either reading or using that thing incorrectly, reading or using it in the most harsh and restrictive way possible (typically for no good reason), or not playing the type of game that makes use of such a thing.
I find it difficult to hear people say something is terrible and then, at the same time, not be open to ways in which that thing might not be.
I mean, WotC has definitely published some duds over the years (see SCAG & subclasses that were either corrected in later books or effectively abandoned). Stating that its the player's fault 100% of the time for not understanding the true value or ruling things wrong is giving the publishers too much credit. Sometimes things just arent as good as they can be. Despite the revelations and changes in perception this thread as a whole has done for me for 4EM, I still feel that as a whole it is lacking in several areas.
You're right. That's fair. Not 100% of the time. WotC have made many erratas over the years. I apologize.
As a whole, the 4EM monk has gone from "definitively bad" to "weird" for me after participating in this thread. When I say "weird" I dont mean bad, per say, but just like it would work a bit odd in practice and unfortunately still lacking in enough areas to make it not my first pick. Maybe something for a one-shot if I wanted to try and play into one aspect or another, but not something I would enjoy playing long term.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews!Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
Optimus, divine smite does 6d8 for a 5th level spell slot and 5d8 for a 4th level spell slot. That's [(1d8+1d8+2+5)*2 + (11d8)]. That is, in fact, 81.5.
The paladin could continue to pump weaker and weaker divine smite into attacks on subsequent rounds. Not at 80%-90% capacity mind you. All the while using up long rest resources. A monk gets all of the ki back after a short rest. 11+ ki in fact. Wash, rinse, repeat for the monk. Just like fighters and warlocks.
The way I read it you are spending only 2 ki if it doesn't work. If it does work it is all of that damage plus the punch and prone condition so the rest of the party can pummel the enemy, or you can knock them over a cliff, or whatever the situation demanded tactically. What does a warlock get out of using all three spell slots? That is the same thing here for the monk. After all spell slots are gone at level 11 a warlock is blasting for 31.5 a round. A spent monk is punching for 28.5 a round. Plus all of their individual class abilities that cost nothing.
3 ki for a level 17 ability is great. But it doesn't kill someone. It takes to 0 hp or does a lot of damage. It is also 2 turns worth of action economy. A 4E monk, at level 17, can do 10d10 damage in one turn using 9 ki and still have plenty of key left to finish that fight. ALSO, fireball. Low DPR monk subclass?!?! Fireball?!?!
Divine Smite
Starting at 2nd level, when you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack, you can expend one spell slot to deal radiant damage to the target, in addition to the weapon’s damage. The extra damage is 2d8 for a 1st-level spell slot, plus 1d8 for each spell level higher than 1st, to a maximum of 5d8. The damage increases by 1d8 if the target is an undead or a fiend, to a maximum of 6d8.
So no its not....
And yes its about 80% damage as you are only removing about 4.5 damage per slot lost....thats only 5% damage loss per slot level. You actually keep up pretty good from 5th to 3rd level.
Meaning you would lose about 20% dropping 4 levels of damage....or less depending on your weapon and what other spells you choose to use (Bless increases DPR nicely)
Last I checked taking 99% of creatures to 0 hp is killing it....so yeah lets just go ahead and say its dead.
Overall fireball is terrible at 17th level as the wizard has moved on to bigger and better things...****y doing ~25 damage is not going to drop much at that level and honestly stunning a creature at that level is a much better investment 99% of the time IMO as shutting something down for a full turn is MUCH better than plinking away at it for 25 damage if it manages to fail the save....
I don't get it when people compare magic that non-full casters get to the levels that full casters get the same thing. Fireball at levels 11+ for a PC that typically punches things is really good. EK, ranger, paladin, AT, barbarian, all of things take feats to try and keep up (poorly) with full casters in tiers 3 and 4, and the EK is getting fireball even later still!. A 4E monk can use fireball 3+ times every short rest at these tiers. That is not weak.
Yes. If you use 15 ki at the start of a fight and don't kill the dragon, it will feel bad. It should. That was a poor play. Using 12 ki to finish off a dragon?! Now that is different.
They haven't given it an errata yet. SO either it's coming, it's fine the way it is, or some third option.
I don't get it when people compare magic that non-full casters get to the levels that full casters get the same thing. Fireball at levels 11+ for a PC that typically punches things is really good. EK, ranger, paladin, AT, barbarian, all of things take feats to try and keep up (poorly) with full casters in tiers 3 and 4, and the EK is getting fireball even later still!. A 4E monk can use fireball 3+ times every short rest at these tiers. That is not weak.
Yes. If you use 15 ki at the start of a fight and don't kill the dragon, it will feel bad. It should. That was a poor play. Using 12 ki to finish off a dragon?! Now that is different.
They haven't given it an errata yet. SO either it's coming, it's fine the way it is, or some third option.
15 ki to do less damage than the other monk usinig 3 to do more is the problem....
Over the course of the fight that open hand monk is either outright killing the dragon or will do 50d10 damage with the same ki....
A long rest passive ability that incentives the monk to NOT attack.
At the same levels a 4E monk gets options, but more or less...
Area of effect damage, big push/pull/prone effects, and disengage+damage bump.
Ranged area of effect damage, big push/pull/prone effects, and disengage+damage bump.
The ability to fly, fireball, big push/pull/prone effects, and disengage+damage bump.
Each to their own.
Yeah but I mean you are the one who picked 17th level?
Open Hand gets their stuff every time they flurry tho so it's less powerful but you get it a lot more.
Plus you can focus more on actually being a monk and doing monk stuff....
I'm not completely opposed to 4e as I think it's good for a group with no casters and no feats.... But I've never had a game like that myself.
Otherwise I would just pick a caster if I wanted that stuff because I'm going to be better at it then the monk and if I wanted to do monk stuff I would pick shadow/open hand/mercy and actually do monk stuff.
I’d also like to point out that many of the four elements’ abilities, although costing a bit more ki, aren’t out of line with what you get in return. Damage via flurry of blows costs 1 ki and a bonus action. Disengage costs 1 ki and a bonus action. Even just martial arts costs a bonus action.
Thunderwave, burning hands, fangs of the fire snake, and fist of unbroken air all cost 2 ki (if you FoB along with FotFS), but they all effectively let you disengage while doing the same damage as using flurry of blows (when hitting multiple targets with the AoE spells, as they are intended).
So in this sense, a ki cost for result and action economy perspective, the four elements let’s you get more done on one turn for the SAME ki expense.
Yes. Thunderwave costs more ki than flurry of blows. But it costs the same ki as flurry of blows and disengage. And if you disengage with your bonus action you are doing terrible damage along with the cost of 1 ki. You can do one or the other on your turn. Something like thunderwave let’s you effectively accomplish both on the same turn for the same ki cost when dealing with multiple enemies.
I’d also like to point out that many of the four elements’ abilities, although costing a bit more ki, aren’t out of line with what you get in return. Damage via flurry of blows costs 1 ki and a bonus action. Disengage costs 1 ki and a bonus action. Even just martial arts costs a bonus action.
Thunderwave, burning hands, fangs of the fire snake, and fist of unbroken air all cost 2 ki (if you FoB along with FotFS), but they all effectively let you disengage while doing the same damage as using flurry of blows (when hitting multiple targets with the AoE spells, as they are intended).
So in this sense, a ki cost for result and action economy perspective, the four elements let’s you get more done on one turn for the SAME ki expense.
Yes. Thunderwave costs more ki than flurry of blows. But it costs the same ki as flurry of blows and disengage. And if you disengage with your bonus action you are doing terrible damage along with the cost of 1 ki. You can do one or the other on your turn. Something like thunderwave let’s you effectively accomplish both on the same turn for the same ki cost when dealing with multiple enemies.
I dont know if that is a fair comparison.
1) Gaining the benefit of the "free disengage" relies on the enemy failing its saving throw (FoUA or Thunderwave) or on you already being out of its range to begin with (Burning Hands or FotFS). In the latter case, one could argue any fighter using a weapon with the reach property gets a free disengage, which I think makes it sound stronger than it is.
2) Because Thunderwave and Burning Hands are both AoEs, you also cannot pick your targets like you can for Flurry of Blows. If any of your allies are fighting near those enemies, chances are these options will hit them unless you manage to get a specific geometry working for you.
3) You mention that flurry of blows, disengage, and martial arts cost a bonus action, but do not mention that any of the EDs cost a full action. With the exception of Fangs of the Fire snake, using any of the mentioned EDs means you are giving up your entire attack action as well as the potential to do more damage with flurry of blows. The most you can hope for is a single attack if you are using Tasha's optional rules, but even then it will not work if you are using an option where you are standing out of melee range to begin with.
I see the point you are making, and I think the benefits you mention can work in the right scenarios, but flurry of blows will probably be more widely useful to the monk since they can pick their targets without harming their allies, make the attacks on top of their Attack action, and can proc other effects which apply on a hit (namely Stunning Strike) thus making more use of the base monk kit
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews!Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
1. Flurry of blows is strong. Stunning strike is strong. But every monk has those. What the four elements gives us is options. More and varied tools for the jobs at hand. These abilities use an action, yes. But flurry of blows isn't any stronger, damage wise, than any of these used in the appropriate circumstances. If use your bonus action to disengage you are dealing WAY less damage than flurry of blows. These 4E abilities keep your damage up to FoB levels and provide the tactical advantage of moving without being hit. Yes it requires failed saving throws. You are still lessoning or eliminating the damage taken while keeping your damage up for that turn, on the same turn, at the same ki cost of both options done by a baseline monk over two turns. Your bonus action being free and unused is moot. Tasha's options only shoves the 4E monk to even better damage potential, tactical advantage, and action economy. Reach weapons, used as a free disengage action, is 100% part of the draw for those.
2. Yes. That is how AoE abilities and spells work. Again, the 4E monk can do everything else any other monk can do, like flurry of blows or stunning strike. They just have the option for AoE damage. I mean, arcane caster shouldn't take fireball because it's not as good as scorching ray because you might hit your allies? Not at all. Different uses.
3. These options used in their correct situation do the same damage as flurry of blows with the added benefit of the disengage effect and some with the move/prone effect. And in the situations where you have many enemies you can deal MORE damage to more creatures more quickly, before fireball at level 11.
I see people talking about how bad this subclass is. But all of the reasons given seem to come down to incorrect expectations or improper use of the abilities. As a paladin you don't 4th level divine smite a goblin. As a wizard you don't fireball a single target or an area where your allies are. At early levels you have the same resource limitations as fighters and warlocks, and a better situation than EK and AT (they are long rest abilities). By the time we get into higher levels you have lots of ki and your high level baseline monk abilities show that with their cost. All monks can FoB and stunning strike each turn, just as a warlock can EB+hex+AB each turn. The 4E monk has some other things it can do on their turn to broaden the scope of their effect on a situation or combat.
1. Flurry of blows is strong. Stunning strike is strong. But every monk has those. What the four elements gives us is options. More and varied tools for the jobs at hand. These abilities use an action, yes. But flurry of blows isn't any stronger, damage wise, than any of these used in the appropriate circumstances. If use your bonus action to disengage you are dealing WAY less damage than flurry of blows. These 4E abilities keep your damage up to FoB levels and provide the tactical advantage of moving without being hit. Yes it requires failed saving throws. You are still lessoning or eliminating the damage taken while keeping your damage up for that turn, on the same turn, at the same ki cost of both options done by a baseline monk over two turns. Your bonus action being free and unused is moot. Tasha's options only shoves the 4E monk to even better damage potential, tactical advantage, and action economy. Reach weapons, used as a free disengage action, is 100% part of the draw for those.
2. Yes. That is how AoE abilities and spells work. Again, the 4E monk can do everything else any other monk can do, like flurry of blows or stunning strike. They just have the option for AoE damage. I mean, arcane caster shouldn't take fireball because it's not as good as scorching ray because you might hit your allies? Not at all. Different uses.
3. These options used in their correct situation do the same damage as flurry of blows with the added benefit of the disengage effect and some with the move/prone effect. And in the situations where you have many enemies you can deal MORE damage to more creatures more quickly, before fireball at level 11.
I see people talking about how bad this subclass is. But all of the reasons given seem to come down to incorrect expectations or improper use of the abilities. As a paladin you don't 4th level divine smite a goblin. As a wizard you don't fireball a single target or an area where your allies are. At early levels you have the same resource limitations as fighters and warlocks, and a better situation than EK and AT (they are long rest abilities). By the time we get into higher levels you have lots of ki and your high level baseline monk abilities show that with their cost. All monks can FoB and stunning strike each turn, just as a warlock can EB+hex+AB each turn. The 4E monk has some other things it can do on their turn to broaden the scope of their effect on a situation or combat.
The problem is your damage comparison seems a little off. You are saying they deal the same damage as flurry of blows, but the fact that it requires an action makes a big difference. Why? Because flurry of blows can only be used after you take the Attack action. That is to say, if you are comparing total damage, you have to compare the potential damage from the two attacks from flurry of blows PLUS the damage from the Attack action (1-2 more attacks).
If Flurry of Blows is comparable in damage to your EDs, then that means that from levels 3&4, you have about equal damage if you are using the Tasha's optional rule (either 3 unarmed strikes on a turn vs 1 ED + 1 unarmed strike on a turn).
Once you get to level 5, then you are comparing 4 unarmed strikes for a total cost of 1 ki vs 1 ED + 1 unarmed strike for a cost of 2 ki.
Finally, if the major benefit is that you can stay out of your enemies reach and easily escape after taking your turn, then there are other options available to the Monk. The mobile feat is one of the most popular feats for monks in the game because it is effectively a free disengage. The Way of the Drunken Master allows a free disengage when you flurry of blows. Way of the Astral Self gives you the ability to make unarmed strikes at a 10ft reach, so that also solves the disengaging issue. With Tasha's Optional rule, you can take a whip as a monk weapon and stay out of your enemies reach in the first place (granted, you could not flurry of blows in this case but could then save your ki for other features). None of these options risk catching your ally in a harmful AoE, so it is useful every turn rather than just the turns where the battlefield layout is to your advantage.
And all of these other abilities are still just flurry of blows.
At level 4 (using that Treantmonk 60% math) a monk with a +4 to dexterity is doing an average of 13.38 damage with flurry of blows (1 ki and bonus action) OR 5.33 damage if they disengage (1 ki and a bonus action). A four elements monk using thunderwave hitting 2 targets is dealing an average of 13.95 damage (2 ki and no bonus action).
At level 4 (using that Treantmonk 60% math) a monk with a +4 to dexterity is doing an average of 20 damage with flurry of blows (1 ki and bonus action) OR 10.65 damage if they disengage (1 ki and a bonus action). A four elements monk using thunderwave hitting 2 targets is dealing an average 13.96 damage (2 ki and no bonus action) or hitting 3 targets 20.93 damage (2 ki and no bonus action) or upcasting and hitting 2 targets 20.93 damage (3 ki and no bonus action).
The ki costs, action economy, and speed of effect all check out. It's just a matter of what the situation is, and what the particular monk has as options to deal with it.
There's no reason why a 4E monk wouldn't FoB in the situations you listed. But in other situations the 4E monk has options of dealing with them that other monks just don't have. And those options don't seem to me to be out of line with other baseline or subclass options that cost any ki.
And all of these other abilities are still just flurry of blows.
At level 4 (using that Treantmonk 60% math) a monk with a +4 to dexterity is doing an average of 13.38 damage with flurry of blows (1 ki and bonus action) OR 5.33 damage if they disengage (1 ki and a bonus action). A four elements monk using thunderwave hitting 2 targets is dealing an average of 13.95 damage (2 ki and no bonus action).
At level 4 (using that Treantmonk 60% math) a monk with a +4 to dexterity is doing an average of 20 damage with flurry of blows (1 ki and bonus action) OR 10.65 damage if they disengage (1 ki and a bonus action). A four elements monk using thunderwave hitting 2 targets is dealing an average 13.96 damage (2 ki and no bonus action) or hitting 3 targets 20.93 damage (2 ki and no bonus action) or upcasting and hitting 2 targets 20.93 damage (3 ki and no bonus action).
The ki costs, action economy, and speed of effect all check out. It's just a matter of what the situation is, and what the particular monk has as options to deal with it.
There's no reason why a 4E monk wouldn't FoB in the situations you listed. But in other situations the 4E monk has options of dealing with them that other monks just don't have. And those options don't seem to me to be out of line with other baseline or subclass options that cost any ki.
I can see your point that with regular monk choices you have to choose between good damage and disengaging whereas with an ED you could potentially get both.
That being said, with Attack action + flurry of blows or Attack action +disengage your damage drops if you miss with an attack; however with ED + no bonus action, if creatures succeed on their saves not only does your damage drop but you also lose your effective disengage.
I can agree with you that there are situations where it could be useful. It ultimately comes down to do you want more damage with a risky disengage or are you willing to deal less damage for a guaranteed disengage at a lower cost. Assuming thunderwave succeeds in giving you your disengage, the 1 extra ki point spend effectively earns you 4 more damage that turn (unless you upcast).
You could take it a step further by giving your 4EM a whip as a dedicated weapon, that way even after you push them you might still be able to get your bonus action attack in using Ki Empowered Strike. This could raise the damage difference even further and I could see it working well.
How does it scale with continued leveling? The monks attack action and flurry of blows will get more powerful as they level up since their martial arts die increases to 1d8 and 1d10 (so the value they get out of the 1 ki improves); however, the same 2 ki points will still get the same damage from Thunderwave at level 15 as it does at level 3. I wouldnt mind seeing the numbers, but it seems like at some point in order to keep a significant improvement in damage youd have to spend more ki (either to upcast or use a different ED of higher level)
How does it scale with continued leveling? The monks attack action and flurry of blows will get more powerful as they level up since their martial arts die increases to 1d8 and 1d10 (so the value they get out of the 1 ki improves); however, the same 2 ki points will still get the same damage from Thunderwave at level 15 as it does at level 3. I wouldnt mind seeing the numbers, but it seems like at some point in order to keep a significant improvement in damage youd have to spend more ki (either to upcast or use a different ED of higher level)
I agree. Thunderwave is not a great choice pretty much all of the time at level 11+. I would come up with this...
A level 11 monk using flurry of blows does an average of 26.3 damage using 1 ki and a bonus action. That is only 1 ki, but that is it. I have seen many people talk about howe the damage output of monks are "terrible" at higher levels, and it would seem so given they are using their action and bonus action to do that set damage, granted for only 1 ki. (A 4E monk can do the same thing.) At level 11 a 4E monk learns a new ED and can swap out an old ED for a new one, giving them access to two of the ones they get only at level 11+ if they want. They can choose from flying, taking on a gaseous form, or casting fireball. Fair enough. These all cost more ki than flurry of blows. 4 ki each. But fireball, ONLY hitting 2 enemies, is dealing an average of 42 total damage on one turn. Fangs of the Fire Snake, which is a strong contender to be kept at this level along with the push/prone options, is doing an average of 30.45 damage spending the same 4 ki (using martial arts) or the same 26.3 damage for 2 ki, but these damages is to a single target. I look at that and see 1 ki for the effects of a disengage, and an optional 2 ki for an additional 4.15 damage (terrible). So at level 11+ FotFS is should not be used for damage a damage bump, but is still a good use of ki for not provoking AoO. Fist of Unbroken Air is doing 20.63 to one target with the push/prone effects for 4 ki, or 12.38 or 2 ki. FoUA is still strong as it is ranged, push, and prone. This brings down flying creatures, pushes creatures off of cliffs, into area of effects, or whatever.
So the 4E monk can be just as careful with their ki as any other monk doing the same damage. They also have options at this level to do a number of things that other monks can't. A warlock gets 3 spell slots at this level, and an eldritch knight gets three 2nd level spell slots. To me, at this level, a 4E monk using 1/3 of their short rest subclass abilities to be able to fly or deal deal massive amounts of damage to a group of enemies at a huge range seems very reasonable. These are big effects that demand big costs. And/or they can do what every other monk is doing like FoB and stunning strike. They have options.
How does it scale with continued leveling? The monks attack action and flurry of blows will get more powerful as they level up since their martial arts die increases to 1d8 and 1d10 (so the value they get out of the 1 ki improves); however, the same 2 ki points will still get the same damage from Thunderwave at level 15 as it does at level 3. I wouldnt mind seeing the numbers, but it seems like at some point in order to keep a significant improvement in damage youd have to spend more ki (either to upcast or use a different ED of higher level)
I agree. Thunderwave is not a great choice pretty much all of the time at level 11+. I would come up with this...
A level 11 monk using flurry of blows does an average of 26.3 damage using 1 ki and a bonus action. That is only 1 ki, but that is it. I have seen many people talk about howe the damage output of monks are "terrible" at higher levels, and it would seem so given they are using their action and bonus action to do that set damage, granted for only 1 ki. (A 4E monk can do the same thing.) At level 11 a 4E monk learns a new ED and can swap out an old ED for a new one, giving them access to two of the ones they get only at level 11+ if they want. They can choose from flying, taking on a gaseous form, or casting fireball. Fair enough. These all cost more ki than flurry of blows. 4 ki each. But fireball, ONLY hitting 2 enemies, is dealing an average of 42 total damage on one turn. Fangs of the Fire Snake, which is a strong contender to be kept at this level along with the push/prone options, is doing an average of 30.45 damage spending the same 4 ki (using martial arts) or the same 26.3 damage for 2 ki, but these damages is to a single target. I look at that and see 1 ki for the effects of a disengage, and an optional 2 ki for an additional 4.15 damage (terrible). So at level 11+ FotFS is should not be used for damage a damage bump, but is still a good use of ki for not provoking AoO. Fist of Unbroken Air is doing 20.63 to one target with the push/prone effects for 4 ki, or 12.38 or 2 ki. FoUA is still strong as it is ranged, push, and prone. This brings down flying creatures, pushes creatures off of cliffs, into area of effects, or whatever.
So the 4E monk can be just as careful with their ki as any other monk doing the same damage. They also have options at this level to do a number of things that other monks can't. A warlock gets 3 spell slots at this level, and an eldritch knight gets three 2nd level spell slots. To me, at this level, a 4E monk using 1/3 of their short rest subclass abilities to be able to fly or deal deal massive amounts of damage to a group of enemies at a huge range seems very reasonable. These are big effects that demand big costs. And/or they can do what every other monk is doing like FoB and stunning strike. They have options.
I agree with everything but this last statement.
As you have shown, the damage for Flurry of Blows for a single ki cost is 26.3 damage. In order to match that damage, the 4EM monk needs to be spending at least twice as much ki (in the case of FotFS) or more than likely 4 times as much ki for using Fireball or FoUA to keep or exceed "the same damage." If the goal is to do the same damage as Flurry of Blows, the 4EM is spending more ki and is therefor less careful. For Flurry of Blows, its worse NOVA damage for sure but those same 4 ki could translate to 105.2 pts of damage over 4 turns.
That is not to discount the usefulness of the riding effects or of a situational use of Fly or Gaseous Form. Again, I would say I agree with everything you are saying except for the part about the 4EM being able to match damage at higher levels while being just as careful with their ki. The clearly have to spend more to match damage.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews!Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
What are you taking about? A 4E monk can spend 1 ki to deal 26.3 just the same as anyone else.
FotFS allows the 4E to spend the same amount of ki, plus 1 extra for reach, which is the same amount ki as any other monk would, except the 4E monk can do both on one turn.
And then fly. Self explanatory.
And fireball is 4 ki, yes. But when used correctly it’s 2, 3, 4, or even more times the output of a monk using just FoB for 4 turns.
The same 11th level monk is rolling 4d8 with flurry of blows for the martial arts dice. That's an average of 18 damage, so to only get 26.3 damage they have a fairly low Dexterity score. this is going to impact their ability to land a hit. Thunderwave, on the other hand, is guaranteed damage and excellent at clearing out smaller mobs with lower Constitution scores. In terms of damage, it falls off at higher levels. There's no real arguing otherwise. The reason to keep it around, and this goes for Eldritch Knights as well, is to serve as crowd control. It can knock enemies back. But it can also be traded out for stronger disciplines later on. I'd likely swap it out for Shatter at 6th level; provided I seriously invest in Wisdom.
Honestly, by this point they can have four total Elemental Discplines. Two of them can even be 11th level elemental spells. There's no reason to keep talking about Thunderwave as if it were still a serious factor.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
You're right. That's fair. Not 100% of the time. WotC have made many erratas over the years. I apologize.
Fireball...at 11th level (Tier 3 of play).
Also, reducing a creature to 0 HP for 3 ki is huge. Sure, you need at least an extra turn to "finish them off", but chances are one of your allies can do that easy peasy lemon squeezy. OR Just use ki empowered strike since you spent ki as an action. Boom done.
15d10 seems nice, but it wont feel as nice if you spend all that on a creature with 200+ HP and then are left without ki for the rest of the fight. Whereas the open hand monk can spend 3 ki, if they fail deal 10d10 damage, and be set to rinse and repeat for the next several rounds.
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews! Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
As a whole, the 4EM monk has gone from "definitively bad" to "weird" for me after participating in this thread. When I say "weird" I dont mean bad, per say, but just like it would work a bit odd in practice and unfortunately still lacking in enough areas to make it not my first pick. Maybe something for a one-shot if I wanted to try and play into one aspect or another, but not something I would enjoy playing long term.
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews! Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
Divine Smite
Starting at 2nd level, when you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack, you can expend one spell slot to deal radiant damage to the target, in addition to the weapon’s damage. The extra damage is 2d8 for a 1st-level spell slot, plus 1d8 for each spell level higher than 1st, to a maximum of 5d8. The damage increases by 1d8 if the target is an undead or a fiend, to a maximum of 6d8.
So no its not....
And yes its about 80% damage as you are only removing about 4.5 damage per slot lost....thats only 5% damage loss per slot level. You actually keep up pretty good from 5th to 3rd level.
Meaning you would lose about 20% dropping 4 levels of damage....or less depending on your weapon and what other spells you choose to use (Bless increases DPR nicely)
Last I checked taking 99% of creatures to 0 hp is killing it....so yeah lets just go ahead and say its dead.
Overall fireball is terrible at 17th level as the wizard has moved on to bigger and better things...****y doing ~25 damage is not going to drop much at that level and honestly stunning a creature at that level is a much better investment 99% of the time IMO as shutting something down for a full turn is MUCH better than plinking away at it for 25 damage if it manages to fail the save....
I don't get it when people compare magic that non-full casters get to the levels that full casters get the same thing. Fireball at levels 11+ for a PC that typically punches things is really good. EK, ranger, paladin, AT, barbarian, all of things take feats to try and keep up (poorly) with full casters in tiers 3 and 4, and the EK is getting fireball even later still!. A 4E monk can use fireball 3+ times every short rest at these tiers. That is not weak.
Yes. If you use 15 ki at the start of a fight and don't kill the dragon, it will feel bad. It should. That was a poor play. Using 12 ki to finish off a dragon?! Now that is different.
They haven't given it an errata yet. SO either it's coming, it's fine the way it is, or some third option.
15 ki to do less damage than the other monk usinig 3 to do more is the problem....
Over the course of the fight that open hand monk is either outright killing the dragon or will do 50d10 damage with the same ki....
Optimus, you are correct on the smite damage. I apologize. Thanks for the correction.
No worries that one gets muddled a lot....I have to constantly look it up as I forget all the time.
Ok. At level 17 an open hand monk is great.
Before that they get...
At the same levels a 4E monk gets options, but more or less...
Each to their own.
Yeah but I mean you are the one who picked 17th level?
Open Hand gets their stuff every time they flurry tho so it's less powerful but you get it a lot more.
Plus you can focus more on actually being a monk and doing monk stuff....
I'm not completely opposed to 4e as I think it's good for a group with no casters and no feats.... But I've never had a game like that myself.
Otherwise I would just pick a caster if I wanted that stuff because I'm going to be better at it then the monk and if I wanted to do monk stuff I would pick shadow/open hand/mercy and actually do monk stuff.
I’d also like to point out that many of the four elements’ abilities, although costing a bit more ki, aren’t out of line with what you get in return. Damage via flurry of blows costs 1 ki and a bonus action. Disengage costs 1 ki and a bonus action. Even just martial arts costs a bonus action.
Thunderwave, burning hands, fangs of the fire snake, and fist of unbroken air all cost 2 ki (if you FoB along with FotFS), but they all effectively let you disengage while doing the same damage as using flurry of blows (when hitting multiple targets with the AoE spells, as they are intended).
So in this sense, a ki cost for result and action economy perspective, the four elements let’s you get more done on one turn for the SAME ki expense.
Yes. Thunderwave costs more ki than flurry of blows. But it costs the same ki as flurry of blows and disengage. And if you disengage with your bonus action you are doing terrible damage along with the cost of 1 ki. You can do one or the other on your turn. Something like thunderwave let’s you effectively accomplish both on the same turn for the same ki cost when dealing with multiple enemies.
I dont know if that is a fair comparison.
1) Gaining the benefit of the "free disengage" relies on the enemy failing its saving throw (FoUA or Thunderwave) or on you already being out of its range to begin with (Burning Hands or FotFS). In the latter case, one could argue any fighter using a weapon with the reach property gets a free disengage, which I think makes it sound stronger than it is.
2) Because Thunderwave and Burning Hands are both AoEs, you also cannot pick your targets like you can for Flurry of Blows. If any of your allies are fighting near those enemies, chances are these options will hit them unless you manage to get a specific geometry working for you.
3) You mention that flurry of blows, disengage, and martial arts cost a bonus action, but do not mention that any of the EDs cost a full action. With the exception of Fangs of the Fire snake, using any of the mentioned EDs means you are giving up your entire attack action as well as the potential to do more damage with flurry of blows. The most you can hope for is a single attack if you are using Tasha's optional rules, but even then it will not work if you are using an option where you are standing out of melee range to begin with.
I see the point you are making, and I think the benefits you mention can work in the right scenarios, but flurry of blows will probably be more widely useful to the monk since they can pick their targets without harming their allies, make the attacks on top of their Attack action, and can proc other effects which apply on a hit (namely Stunning Strike) thus making more use of the base monk kit
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews! Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
1. Flurry of blows is strong. Stunning strike is strong. But every monk has those. What the four elements gives us is options. More and varied tools for the jobs at hand. These abilities use an action, yes. But flurry of blows isn't any stronger, damage wise, than any of these used in the appropriate circumstances. If use your bonus action to disengage you are dealing WAY less damage than flurry of blows. These 4E abilities keep your damage up to FoB levels and provide the tactical advantage of moving without being hit. Yes it requires failed saving throws. You are still lessoning or eliminating the damage taken while keeping your damage up for that turn, on the same turn, at the same ki cost of both options done by a baseline monk over two turns. Your bonus action being free and unused is moot. Tasha's options only shoves the 4E monk to even better damage potential, tactical advantage, and action economy. Reach weapons, used as a free disengage action, is 100% part of the draw for those.
2. Yes. That is how AoE abilities and spells work. Again, the 4E monk can do everything else any other monk can do, like flurry of blows or stunning strike. They just have the option for AoE damage. I mean, arcane caster shouldn't take fireball because it's not as good as scorching ray because you might hit your allies? Not at all. Different uses.
3. These options used in their correct situation do the same damage as flurry of blows with the added benefit of the disengage effect and some with the move/prone effect. And in the situations where you have many enemies you can deal MORE damage to more creatures more quickly, before fireball at level 11.
I see people talking about how bad this subclass is. But all of the reasons given seem to come down to incorrect expectations or improper use of the abilities. As a paladin you don't 4th level divine smite a goblin. As a wizard you don't fireball a single target or an area where your allies are. At early levels you have the same resource limitations as fighters and warlocks, and a better situation than EK and AT (they are long rest abilities). By the time we get into higher levels you have lots of ki and your high level baseline monk abilities show that with their cost. All monks can FoB and stunning strike each turn, just as a warlock can EB+hex+AB each turn. The 4E monk has some other things it can do on their turn to broaden the scope of their effect on a situation or combat.
The problem is your damage comparison seems a little off. You are saying they deal the same damage as flurry of blows, but the fact that it requires an action makes a big difference. Why? Because flurry of blows can only be used after you take the Attack action. That is to say, if you are comparing total damage, you have to compare the potential damage from the two attacks from flurry of blows PLUS the damage from the Attack action (1-2 more attacks).
If Flurry of Blows is comparable in damage to your EDs, then that means that from levels 3&4, you have about equal damage if you are using the Tasha's optional rule (either 3 unarmed strikes on a turn vs 1 ED + 1 unarmed strike on a turn).
Once you get to level 5, then you are comparing 4 unarmed strikes for a total cost of 1 ki vs 1 ED + 1 unarmed strike for a cost of 2 ki.
Finally, if the major benefit is that you can stay out of your enemies reach and easily escape after taking your turn, then there are other options available to the Monk. The mobile feat is one of the most popular feats for monks in the game because it is effectively a free disengage. The Way of the Drunken Master allows a free disengage when you flurry of blows. Way of the Astral Self gives you the ability to make unarmed strikes at a 10ft reach, so that also solves the disengaging issue. With Tasha's Optional rule, you can take a whip as a monk weapon and stay out of your enemies reach in the first place (granted, you could not flurry of blows in this case but could then save your ki for other features). None of these options risk catching your ally in a harmful AoE, so it is useful every turn rather than just the turns where the battlefield layout is to your advantage.
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews! Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
And all of these other abilities are still just flurry of blows.
At level 4 (using that Treantmonk 60% math) a monk with a +4 to dexterity is doing an average of 13.38 damage with flurry of blows (1 ki and bonus action) OR 5.33 damage if they disengage (1 ki and a bonus action). A four elements monk using thunderwave hitting 2 targets is dealing an average of 13.95 damage (2 ki and no bonus action).
At level 4 (using that Treantmonk 60% math) a monk with a +4 to dexterity is doing an average of 20 damage with flurry of blows (1 ki and bonus action) OR 10.65 damage if they disengage (1 ki and a bonus action). A four elements monk using thunderwave hitting 2 targets is dealing an average 13.96 damage (2 ki and no bonus action) or hitting 3 targets 20.93 damage (2 ki and no bonus action) or upcasting and hitting 2 targets 20.93 damage (3 ki and no bonus action).
The ki costs, action economy, and speed of effect all check out. It's just a matter of what the situation is, and what the particular monk has as options to deal with it.
There's no reason why a 4E monk wouldn't FoB in the situations you listed. But in other situations the 4E monk has options of dealing with them that other monks just don't have. And those options don't seem to me to be out of line with other baseline or subclass options that cost any ki.
I can see your point that with regular monk choices you have to choose between good damage and disengaging whereas with an ED you could potentially get both.
That being said, with Attack action + flurry of blows or Attack action +disengage your damage drops if you miss with an attack; however with ED + no bonus action, if creatures succeed on their saves not only does your damage drop but you also lose your effective disengage.
I can agree with you that there are situations where it could be useful. It ultimately comes down to do you want more damage with a risky disengage or are you willing to deal less damage for a guaranteed disengage at a lower cost. Assuming thunderwave succeeds in giving you your disengage, the 1 extra ki point spend effectively earns you 4 more damage that turn (unless you upcast).
You could take it a step further by giving your 4EM a whip as a dedicated weapon, that way even after you push them you might still be able to get your bonus action attack in using Ki Empowered Strike. This could raise the damage difference even further and I could see it working well.
How does it scale with continued leveling? The monks attack action and flurry of blows will get more powerful as they level up since their martial arts die increases to 1d8 and 1d10 (so the value they get out of the 1 ki improves); however, the same 2 ki points will still get the same damage from Thunderwave at level 15 as it does at level 3. I wouldnt mind seeing the numbers, but it seems like at some point in order to keep a significant improvement in damage youd have to spend more ki (either to upcast or use a different ED of higher level)
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews! Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
I agree with everything but this last statement.
As you have shown, the damage for Flurry of Blows for a single ki cost is 26.3 damage. In order to match that damage, the 4EM monk needs to be spending at least twice as much ki (in the case of FotFS) or more than likely 4 times as much ki for using Fireball or FoUA to keep or exceed "the same damage." If the goal is to do the same damage as Flurry of Blows, the 4EM is spending more ki and is therefor less careful. For Flurry of Blows, its worse NOVA damage for sure but those same 4 ki could translate to 105.2 pts of damage over 4 turns.
That is not to discount the usefulness of the riding effects or of a situational use of Fly or Gaseous Form. Again, I would say I agree with everything you are saying except for the part about the 4EM being able to match damage at higher levels while being just as careful with their ki. The clearly have to spend more to match damage.
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews! Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
What are you taking about? A 4E monk can spend 1 ki to deal 26.3 just the same as anyone else.
FotFS allows the 4E to spend the same amount of ki, plus 1 extra for reach, which is the same amount ki as any other monk would, except the 4E monk can do both on one turn.
And then fly. Self explanatory.
And fireball is 4 ki, yes. But when used correctly it’s 2, 3, 4, or even more times the output of a monk using just FoB for 4 turns.
There are other considerations.
The same 11th level monk is rolling 4d8 with flurry of blows for the martial arts dice. That's an average of 18 damage, so to only get 26.3 damage they have a fairly low Dexterity score. this is going to impact their ability to land a hit. Thunderwave, on the other hand, is guaranteed damage and excellent at clearing out smaller mobs with lower Constitution scores. In terms of damage, it falls off at higher levels. There's no real arguing otherwise. The reason to keep it around, and this goes for Eldritch Knights as well, is to serve as crowd control. It can knock enemies back. But it can also be traded out for stronger disciplines later on. I'd likely swap it out for Shatter at 6th level; provided I seriously invest in Wisdom.
Honestly, by this point they can have four total Elemental Discplines. Two of them can even be 11th level elemental spells. There's no reason to keep talking about Thunderwave as if it were still a serious factor.