What are you taking about? A 4E monk can spend 1 ki to deal 26.3 just the same as anyone else.
FotFS allows the 4E to spend the same amount of ki, plus 1 extra for reach, which is the same amount ki as any other monk would, except the 4E monk can do both on one turn.
And then fly. Self explanatory.
And fireball is 4 ki, yes. But when used correctly it’s 2, 3, 4, or even more times the output of a monk using just FoB for 4 turns.
I see. I believe I misunderstood your earlier statement. My bad
Correct. Swapping out ED is the name of the game. You don’t have access to the stronger ones early on, and you can swap out the weaker ones later in the game.
If the approach to this subclass is to use your special subclass options every single turn, which no subclass of any class does, ever, then you will 100% run out of gas quick. Just as if a full spellcaster spent every turn casting the most powerful spell one after the other. They would be completely spent after one or two combats.
A warlock with access to fireball will still utilize eldritch blast with hex and agonizing blast for the lion’s share of combat rounds. So to the 4E Monk needs to balance their expenditure of ki points. When the opportunities present themselves the 4E mark has options that are right for the job and are unattainable by any other monk subclass.
What are you taking about? A 4E monk can spend 1 ki to deal 26.3 just the same as anyone else.
FotFS allows the 4E to spend the same amount of ki, plus 1 extra for reach, which is the same amount ki as any other monk would, except the 4E monk can do both on one turn.
And then fly. Self explanatory.
And fireball is 4 ki, yes. But when used correctly it’s 2, 3, 4, or even more times the output of a monk using just FoB for 4 turns.
I see. I believe I misunderstood your earlier statement. My bad
Well, my statement was long and rambling. LOL! So you’re probably in the majority.
What are you taking about? A 4E monk can spend 1 ki to deal 26.3 just the same as anyone else.
FotFS allows the 4E to spend the same amount of ki, plus 1 extra for reach, which is the same amount ki as any other monk would, except the 4E monk can do both on one turn.
And then fly. Self explanatory.
And fireball is 4 ki, yes. But when used correctly it’s 2, 3, 4, or even more times the output of a monk using just FoB for 4 turns.
I see. I believe I misunderstood your earlier statement. My bad
Well, my statement was long and rambling. LOL! So you’re probably in the majority.
I will say, your arguments and others made in this thread have done alot to convince me that this subclass is not awful, but there are still things about it that I do not like.
For one thing, as it is right now, your subclass features amount to "you know 4 spells." I really like the monk-specific options, but outside of that having your only features be the ability to recreate spells feels lackluster. As you pointed out, there is alot of versatility that can be had using this monk, but that versatility is undercut greatly by the fact that your arsenal or elemental abilities is so limited.
I wish that either this monk had some sort of base subclass features (especially ones which allow your EDs to better synergize with the base kit)
OR
that you were at least allowed to learn more disciplines so you can really play into the versatility of this subclass. Being able to only learn 4 EDs and only being able to switch them out at four specific levels is not great for that. I think more EDs known or the ability to switch them out more frequently (once per level or even once per long rest) could do alot to play into the 4EM's strengths. Also Tasha's seemed like a missed opportunity to give the 4EM more ED options to choose from (like they did with maneuvers).
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I get that. All I can say is, monk’s subclasses don’t give you a wealth of stuff between levels 3 to 11, right?
Open hand gets a small selection of flurry of blows powered (meaning, ki reliant and only two per round) abilities at 3, a one time per day self heal at 6, and a passive ability once per day that prevents you from doing ANY damage in order to keep it active.
The shadow monk gets some stealth spells (basically all low level, non combat, non scaling spells that are available to many spellcasting classes and subclasses) and a non combat cantrip at 3, a teleport option that eats your bonus action (albeit free of ki) thereby keeping you from doing maximum potential damage with flurry of blows at 6, and an ability that, although fun for a sneaky character, also encourages you to not attack at 11.
What is considered one of the strongest monk subclasses? Let’s take a look at those.
I get that. All I can say is, monk’s subclasses don’t give you a wealth of stuff between levels 3 to 11, right?
Open hand gets a small selection of flurry of blows powered (meaning, ki reliant and only two per round) abilities at 3, a one time per day self heal at 6, and a passive ability once per day that prevents you from doing ANY damage in order to keep it active.
The shadow monk gets some stealth spells (basically all low level, non combat, non scaling spells that are available to many spellcasting classes and subclasses) and a non combat cantrip at 3, a teleport option that eats your bonus action (albeit free of ki) thereby keeping you from doing maximum potential damage with flurry of blows at 6, and an ability that, although fun for a sneaky character, also encourages you to not attack at 11.
What is considered one of the strongest monk subclasses? Let’s take a look at those.
None of those have power in their versatility, like 4EM does. They all focus one thing and do that one thing very well (most of the time) and their subclass abilities are meant to build into that. If you are going to have an option that is built on versatility, you need to have more options than your counterparts . Could you imagine if Battle Master Fighter only ever learned 4 maneuvers through their entire subclass?
Sure. I get that. Think of it this way though. When a battle master fighter is all out of dice, they have "hit with weapon" left over. Those dice are fun, but they get, what, 5 or 6 total, even at higher levels? I don't know. I think of the stuff the 4E monk more as "subclass features" more than them being a spellcaster.
I looked at the kensei and astral self monks. At 3, 6, and 11, I don't know... I don't hate any of them. Not by a long shot. But they each have things that eat up their bonus actions to do different things, but not necessarily more damage. And when they do end up doing more damage, they have sacrificed something elsewhere, again like with the disengage or a reaction.
Sure. I get that. Think of it this way though. When a battle master fighter is all out of dice, they have "hit with weapon" left over. Those dice are fun, but they get, what, 5 or 6 total, even at higher levels? I don't know. I think of the stuff the 4E monk more as "subclass features" more than them being a spellcaster.
I looked at the kensei and astral self monks. At 3, 6, and 11, I don't know... I don't hate any of them. Not by a long shot. But they each have things that eat up their bonus actions to do different things, but not necessarily more damage. And when they do end up doing more damage, they have sacrificed something elsewhere, again like with the disengage or a reaction.
Astral Self continually builds on its base subclass features rather than introducing completely new abilities that are not related. It can benefit from its full kit at the same time. Throughout its lifetime, using its features only costs 1->2->2->5 ki points to gain the full benefit for 10 minutes at a time. One of these improvements costs no ki to use and is just a free buff to the subclass
Kensei monk also gets a ton of abilities that build off of its base class concept of being able to use more weapons as a monk. None of their abilities are too costly either, maxing out at 3 ki. Several of the choices and options given as part of these features cost no ki and are just improvements/other ways to make use of your weapons. With all the subcategories this one's features has, it is basically getting like 8 things across its four features, most of which tie back to its primary mechanic modifying/improving its monk weapon.
Way of the Four Elements says pick whichever four "features" you want but you can only pick 4, every feature you choose costs at least 1-2 ki (except for EA). Except for Fangs of the Fire Snake, none of these options build off of the base monk kit or off of each other. They are separate and standalone features which are only tied together by their "elemental" theme, but not mechanically.
Also, I dont see why you say they "sacrifice" the ability to disengage or their reaction. They are given more options on how to use their bonus action and reaction, thus expanding on what the monk can do every turn. If versatility is important, its important to expand on bonus actions and reactions as well, not just what they can do with their action. A monk isnt going to want to Disengage every round and if its not looking to deal damage, it probably wont even want to Flurry of Blows every round. The same goes for reactions, the option to reduce elemental damage as a reaction is going to be more helpful than saving the reaction for an attack of opportunity (honestly I wish they had given this feature to the 4EM as well). If any of those new options are free, then that's even better because it expands on what the monk can do without drawing more on its primary resource.
At level 3 they actually loose a little damage on their first turn against one enemy when the activate the arms, but they do get a one time tittle save or suck AoE. Then they can use half dexterity and half wisdom for attack rolls and damage. This costs 1 ki. The 10 minute reach (with ONLY two of your attacks) is nice.
At level 6 they get a way to spend 1 more ki to get some powerful darkvision for 10 minutes and some out of combat buffs.
At level 11 they get an ability that rides on top of the other two combined abilities (both of the previous 2 abilities (2 ki points and a bonus action spent and lost to anything else) have to be active first) that give you a small reduction to elemental damage that uses your reaction and gives you an extra 1d10 per round (not turn).
So, these are nice. They don't offer any really huge abilities like major increased damage or anything. But they are straightforward and do build off of the monk hitting things with their fists. All in all, this costs 1 more ki in a fight than a monk just doing flurry of blows, which is good ki economy. But this gets them a little reach, a little defensive bump, and an extra 1d10 damage per round. Consistent and solid.
I get it. 4 ki on one turn is more than 2 for 10 minutes. But the astral self monk is doing this all of the time and on every turn, because of they don't do both they don't get the level 11 ability at all. So this is a potato potato situation. One person might see good ki economy while another person might see a pigeon holed combat tactic with zero options outside of that.
All in all, considering this monk may never even get through all of their ki at mid game, personally, I'd rather do almost the same damage doing almost the same thing AND have the option to fly or cast fireball.
At level 3 they get to expand their weapon options, remember that flurry of blows doesn't work with weapons as it has to be unarmed strikes. So this gives them an average of 1 or 2 more points of damage a turn depending on if they have extra attack yet. That's not bad at all. Monks do very competitive damage in tier 1 and early tier 2. Now the rest of level 3 is interesting to me. They can NOT use their weapon for damage (instead using a much smaller smaller martial arts die) and get a short defense buff. Trading offense for defense or vise versa is never bad as an option as far as I'm concerned. Very flexible. The second ability ends up costing you damage output. Meaning you loose damage based on what you could have with flurry of blows and your weapon. However you gain a little bit of that back and it adds an alright ranged option. You would need to think about if you are switching back and forth between weapon at this point, or what role you are playing in a combat. But! None of this costs any ki more than a baseline monk! So that's good. Ranged attacks and AC buff for less damage output than a baseline monk, but no additional ki cost.
Basically at level 6 you gain the ability to spend 1 ki point to deal an extra 1d6 ( or a higher die at later levels). Ok. Wasn't that one of the complaints of the four elements monk and FotFS, that 1 ki was too expensive for an extra 1d10 of damage? Magic weapon attacks is a solid buff!
At level 11 you can spend up to 3 ki (almost fireball amount) and your (non magical) weapon can gain a buff for 1 minute. That means you can spend the key and get this bonus added to 2 of your attacks for 1 battle. This also costs your bonus action, so you are losing optional flurry of blows and even martial arts damage that turn. Mathematically this is sound over several rounds, and I'm a big proponent for damage over time versus nova damage. This subclass also opens up the door for monks and the sharpshooter feat, which I'm sure the uber optimizers are drooling over. But you have spent 3 ki (let's be honest, at level 11, 3 ki really isn't that much for a potent effect) and used your bonus action to lose damage on your first turn for the benefit of a solid boost to two attacks per round for the rest of the combat.
I get it. Just like the astral self, this is very easy on the ki pool. Heck, you might not even get through all of your ki points with this subclass too. And this does add a little nice ranged option for a monk. Still no AoE or real explosive potential. That's ok. Monks aren't typically big single turn damage dealers.
If a player's concern is running out of ki points ( for some reason considering they are a short rest resource) than these two subclass would be a better fit for those players. If a player thinks that monks do more than fine in the damage and defense department, especially from levels 1 through 10, and want subclass options that offer more explosive effects, the ability to fight off large groups of enemies, bigger movement effects, or very thematic things (like flying), then I still think the four elements is the way to go.
At level 3 they actually loose a little damage on their first turn against one enemy when the activate the arms, but they do get a one time tittle save or suck AoE. Then they can use half dexterity and half wisdom for attack rolls and damage. This costs 1 ki. The 10 minute reach (with ONLY two of your attacks) is nice.
At level 6 they get a way to spend 1 more ki to get some powerful darkvision for 10 minutes and some out of combat buffs.
At level 11 they get an ability that rides on top of the other two combined abilities (both of the previous 2 abilities (2 ki points and a bonus action spent and lost to anything else) have to be active first) that give you a small reduction to elemental damage that uses your reaction and gives you an extra 1d10 per round (not turn).
So, these are nice. They don't offer any really huge abilities like major increased damage or anything. But they are straightforward and do build off of the monk hitting things with their fists. All in all, this costs 1 more ki in a fight than a monk just doing flurry of blows, which is good ki economy. But this gets them a little reach, a little defensive bump, and an extra 1d10 damage per round. Consistent and solid.
I get it. 4 ki on one turn is more than 2 for 10 minutes. But the astral self monk is doing this all of the time and on every turn, because of they don't do both they don't get the level 11 ability at all. So this is a potato potato situation. One person might see good ki economy while another person might see a pigeon holed combat tactic with zero options outside of that.
All in all, considering this monk may never even get through all of their ki at mid game, personally, I'd rather do almost the same damage doing almost the same thing AND have the option to fly or cast fireball.
????
Also, why do you think the Astral Self monk wont get through all of their ki at mid game? Because the cost is so low for their abilities?
Firstly, that might be true if there were only one encounter between short rests, but if the DM packs in 2 or 3 or more encounters between those rests (or prevents the party from short resting) then the Astral Self monk (or most other monk subclasses) will still be able to use their features in those later encounters whereas the 4EM may be tapped.
Secondly, even if there were only one or two encounters between short rests, the other monk subclasses wouldn't just do their "special subclass thing" and then save the rest of their ki points. They have just as much ability to burn through their ki points, just not as quickly. But instead of a single turn 4 ki fly or fireball, they will get Flurry of Blows with a Stunning Strike on each blow plus Flurry of Blows the next turn. They will get Patient Defense on several turns to act as a dodge tank when the situation calls for it. They will get Step of the Wind to disengage and maneuver. They will use Focused Aim to more consistently turn misses into hits (just 1 ki point saved can be turned into a +2 to hit in a tight spot). When they use Deflect Missiles, they will be able to enhance their reaction by making the return attack. They will be turning failed saves into successes with Diamond Soul . They will be becoming invisible with Empty Body.
Heck, even if they are overly stingy in using their ki points, they wont necessarily go to waste. Before they start their short rest they can pour their remaining ki points into Quickened Healing to top off their health so they dont have to spend Hit Die to recover their HP.
Just because some of the other monk subclasses have lower cost subclass features does not mean they will be plagued by wasting their ki by not spending it. There are so many abilities the monk have that it can use its ki to use or enhance. Sure, some of them will be used more often than others because they are more often helpful, but theres no reason a monk should feel it has nothing to do with any extra ki points it finds its holding onto.
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At level 3 they get to expand their weapon options, remember that flurry of blows doesn't work with weapons as it has to be unarmed strikes. So this gives them an average of 1 or 2 more points of damage a turn depending on if they have extra attack yet. That's not bad at all. Monks do very competitive damage in tier 1 and early tier 2. Now the rest of level 3 is interesting to me. They can NOT use their weapon for damage (instead using a much smaller smaller martial arts die) and get a short defense buff. Trading offense for defense or vise versa is never bad as an option as far as I'm concerned. Very flexible. The second ability ends up costing you damage output. Meaning you loose damage based on what you could have with flurry of blows and your weapon. However you gain a little bit of that back and it adds an alright ranged option. You would need to think about if you are switching back and forth between weapon at this point, or what role you are playing in a combat. But! None of this costs any ki more than a baseline monk! So that's good. Ranged attacks and AC buff for less damage output than a baseline monk, but no additional ki cost.
Basically at level 6 you gain the ability to spend 1 ki point to deal an extra 1d6 ( or a higher die at later levels). Ok. Wasn't that one of the complaints of the four elements monk and FotFS, that 1 ki was too expensive for an extra 1d10 of damage? Magic weapon attacks is a solid buff!
I dont recall complaining that FotFS specifically was too expensive, maybe someone else.
I think the expected combats per day and combats between rests (both long and short) must be very different for many of you than anything I have ever experienced, in any edition of this game, especially in this edition. I find about 3 healthy and challenging combats between long rests to be extremely common. And when there is more combats those are typically more dungeon delving, skirmishing style, less challenging combats, so using all of a party’s best stuff is typically unnecessary. This might just be me though.
I also find that combat last either 3, 4, or 5 full rounds. Not like 6+ rounds each.
So my personal experience has been that short rest PCs typically get about as much use out of their abilities as long rest PCs.
Then why bring it up? I understand the question is meant to be rhetorical. I understand the point is to highlight and say "isnt it hypocritical to call this ability expensive and not the one from Kensei?" but the purpose of making that statement is kinda lost at this point in the conversation because the posters who made that argument probably arent even following the thread anymore.
I also want to reiterate that my main point in the previous comment was not about how many encounters occur per short rest (as that will vary on DM) but that any monk (Astral Self, Kensei, or otherwise) will be able to find use for all their ki points one way or another. The 4EM is just able to get through their ki points quicker (if they choose to commit to costlier EDs). Sometimes 3 ki for Shatter could be useful, other times thats 3 failed saves that could have been turned into successes or a +6 to hit on a crucial attack or potentially 3 enemies stunned for over a round, so in the end you gotta weigh what you want your ki to do; however, there isnt a single monk subclass that is only ever going to get stuck in a rut of doing one thing with their ki in combat. And thanks to the Quickened Healing optional rule, a monk has a useful way to dump any remaining ki points before a short rest (unless they survived the encounters with all of their health).
I brought up the ki for extra damage as I’ve seen that mentioned across several threads multiple times. I wasn’t trying to jam it into our discord.
Yes. All monks, all short rest based characters, can run out of their resources quickly. That strikes me as kind of the mechanical play style built into those classes. For me, the biggest takeaway is that all monk subclasses can all spend 1 ki per round and be ok in the damage department and ok in the resource management department. No subclass choice changes that. It is up to the player to use the options well. The four elements monk does not look to be designed to use a subclass option as often as humanly possible. It just isn’t. Thea are big effects and should, will, can only be used sparingly and tactically. That’s not a fault of the subclass. That’s the nature of the subclass.
If the day is known or turns out to be 8 combats of 4 rounds each with only 1 short rest (like one popular YouTube optimizer claims to use for number crunching) between long rests, than everyone is in danger of running out of gas eventually, if not quickly. If that type of adventuring day is happening then one of two possible things is happening. 1. The DM has used an appropriate amount of total daily CR to put this adventuring day together, so each of these battles are going to come in at about the medium range of difficulty. 2. The DM doesn’t give a hoot about balance and every fight is hard, deadly, or deadly+. Option 1, the game is already built around that (plus 1 additional short rest). Option 2 is just a deadly campaign and it’s going to be tough for all of the players.
I just looked at the mercy monk. It also has ways to deal less damage on a turn. Yes, to be able to heal. But ki is being spent for even less damage than a baseline monk only using flurry of blows.
Note that even this subclass requires to spend ki to get any use out of their level 3, 6, and 11 abilities.
The four elements monk checks out for me in the math department. I hear the criticisms. But I don’t think those are flaws of the subclass, simply the style of the subclass.
Yeah, I’ve always been a proponent of 4E Monk versatility being extremely undervalued. I also think the one complaint of 4E Monk being too resource-dependent is also the weakness of every Monk - the Ki points just seem too linear. At level 2, 2 Ki points barely does anything. At level 20, 20 Ki points means you can Flurry and Stunning Strike on every hit for more than 6 rounds straight…
I’ve been contemplating a “3 X Prof Bonus” option as of late, as a modification. That starts with 6 and ends with 18, so maybe a little healthier for early game Monks in general to do more stuff?
Has anyone thought of using a Dedicated Weapon short bow alongside the 4E abilities? Instead of spending say 9 Ki on Water Whip or Fist of Unbroken Air, perhaps spend 8 and then use Ki-Fueled Attacks with the short bow and Sharpshooter feat, using that leftover Ki on Focused Aim to boost the hit if needed. Wouldn't that result in higher damage overall?
Yeah, I’ve always been a proponent of 4E Monk versatility being extremely undervalued. I also think the one complaint of 4E Monk being too resource-dependent is also the weakness of every Monk - the Ki points just seem too linear. At level 2, 2 Ki points barely does anything. At level 20, 20 Ki points means you can Flurry and Stunning Strike on every hit for more than 6 rounds straight…
I’ve been contemplating a “3 X Prof Bonus” option as of late, as a modification. That starts with 6 and ends with 18, so maybe a little healthier for early game Monks in general to do more stuff?
This is more the issue I agree....4E just compounds it
Has anyone thought of using a Dedicated Weapon short bow alongside the 4E abilities? Instead of spending say 9 Ki on Water Whip or Fist of Unbroken Air, perhaps spend 8 and then use Ki-Fueled Attacks with the short bow and Sharpshooter feat, using that leftover Ki on Focused Aim to boost the hit if needed. Wouldn't that result in higher damage overall?
Overall dedicated weapon is an awesome feature and I'm glad it exists. However this scenerio suggests you take the Sharpshooter feat instead of increasing Dex/Wis which would likely reduce your damage per day enough that it's not worth it.
You would miss with attacks more often or have a lower ki DC and thus a lower save.
I think that 4E needs some features that either don't rely on ki or at least synergies with the basic monk stuff
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I see. I believe I misunderstood your earlier statement. My bad
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Correct. Swapping out ED is the name of the game. You don’t have access to the stronger ones early on, and you can swap out the weaker ones later in the game.
If the approach to this subclass is to use your special subclass options every single turn, which no subclass of any class does, ever, then you will 100% run out of gas quick. Just as if a full spellcaster spent every turn casting the most powerful spell one after the other. They would be completely spent after one or two combats.
A warlock with access to fireball will still utilize eldritch blast with hex and agonizing blast for the lion’s share of combat rounds. So to the 4E Monk needs to balance their expenditure of ki points. When the opportunities present themselves the 4E mark has options that are right for the job and are unattainable by any other monk subclass.
Well, my statement was long and rambling. LOL! So you’re probably in the majority.
I will say, your arguments and others made in this thread have done alot to convince me that this subclass is not awful, but there are still things about it that I do not like.
For one thing, as it is right now, your subclass features amount to "you know 4 spells." I really like the monk-specific options, but outside of that having your only features be the ability to recreate spells feels lackluster. As you pointed out, there is alot of versatility that can be had using this monk, but that versatility is undercut greatly by the fact that your arsenal or elemental abilities is so limited.
I wish that either this monk had some sort of base subclass features (especially ones which allow your EDs to better synergize with the base kit)
OR
that you were at least allowed to learn more disciplines so you can really play into the versatility of this subclass. Being able to only learn 4 EDs and only being able to switch them out at four specific levels is not great for that. I think more EDs known or the ability to switch them out more frequently (once per level or even once per long rest) could do alot to play into the 4EM's strengths. Also Tasha's seemed like a missed opportunity to give the 4EM more ED options to choose from (like they did with maneuvers).
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I get that. All I can say is, monk’s subclasses don’t give you a wealth of stuff between levels 3 to 11, right?
Open hand gets a small selection of flurry of blows powered (meaning, ki reliant and only two per round) abilities at 3, a one time per day self heal at 6, and a passive ability once per day that prevents you from doing ANY damage in order to keep it active.
The shadow monk gets some stealth spells (basically all low level, non combat, non scaling spells that are available to many spellcasting classes and subclasses) and a non combat cantrip at 3, a teleport option that eats your bonus action (albeit free of ki) thereby keeping you from doing maximum potential damage with flurry of blows at 6, and an ability that, although fun for a sneaky character, also encourages you to not attack at 11.
What is considered one of the strongest monk subclasses? Let’s take a look at those.
None of those have power in their versatility, like 4EM does. They all focus one thing and do that one thing very well (most of the time) and their subclass abilities are meant to build into that. If you are going to have an option that is built on versatility, you need to have more options than your counterparts . Could you imagine if Battle Master Fighter only ever learned 4 maneuvers through their entire subclass?
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Sure. I get that. Think of it this way though. When a battle master fighter is all out of dice, they have "hit with weapon" left over. Those dice are fun, but they get, what, 5 or 6 total, even at higher levels? I don't know. I think of the stuff the 4E monk more as "subclass features" more than them being a spellcaster.
I looked at the kensei and astral self monks. At 3, 6, and 11, I don't know... I don't hate any of them. Not by a long shot. But they each have things that eat up their bonus actions to do different things, but not necessarily more damage. And when they do end up doing more damage, they have sacrificed something elsewhere, again like with the disengage or a reaction.
Astral Self continually builds on its base subclass features rather than introducing completely new abilities that are not related. It can benefit from its full kit at the same time. Throughout its lifetime, using its features only costs 1->2->2->5 ki points to gain the full benefit for 10 minutes at a time. One of these improvements costs no ki to use and is just a free buff to the subclass
Kensei monk also gets a ton of abilities that build off of its base class concept of being able to use more weapons as a monk. None of their abilities are too costly either, maxing out at 3 ki. Several of the choices and options given as part of these features cost no ki and are just improvements/other ways to make use of your weapons. With all the subcategories this one's features has, it is basically getting like 8 things across its four features, most of which tie back to its primary mechanic modifying/improving its monk weapon.
Way of the Four Elements says pick whichever four "features" you want but you can only pick 4, every feature you choose costs at least 1-2 ki (except for EA). Except for Fangs of the Fire Snake, none of these options build off of the base monk kit or off of each other. They are separate and standalone features which are only tied together by their "elemental" theme, but not mechanically.
Also, I dont see why you say they "sacrifice" the ability to disengage or their reaction. They are given more options on how to use their bonus action and reaction, thus expanding on what the monk can do every turn. If versatility is important, its important to expand on bonus actions and reactions as well, not just what they can do with their action. A monk isnt going to want to Disengage every round and if its not looking to deal damage, it probably wont even want to Flurry of Blows every round. The same goes for reactions, the option to reduce elemental damage as a reaction is going to be more helpful than saving the reaction for an attack of opportunity (honestly I wish they had given this feature to the 4EM as well). If any of those new options are free, then that's even better because it expands on what the monk can do without drawing more on its primary resource.
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Astral Self:
At level 3 they actually loose a little damage on their first turn against one enemy when the activate the arms, but they do get a one time tittle save or suck AoE. Then they can use half dexterity and half wisdom for attack rolls and damage. This costs 1 ki. The 10 minute reach (with ONLY two of your attacks) is nice.
At level 6 they get a way to spend 1 more ki to get some powerful darkvision for 10 minutes and some out of combat buffs.
At level 11 they get an ability that rides on top of the other two combined abilities (both of the previous 2 abilities (2 ki points and a bonus action spent and lost to anything else) have to be active first) that give you a small reduction to elemental damage that uses your reaction and gives you an extra 1d10 per round (not turn).
So, these are nice. They don't offer any really huge abilities like major increased damage or anything. But they are straightforward and do build off of the monk hitting things with their fists. All in all, this costs 1 more ki in a fight than a monk just doing flurry of blows, which is good ki economy. But this gets them a little reach, a little defensive bump, and an extra 1d10 damage per round. Consistent and solid.
I get it. 4 ki on one turn is more than 2 for 10 minutes. But the astral self monk is doing this all of the time and on every turn, because of they don't do both they don't get the level 11 ability at all. So this is a potato potato situation. One person might see good ki economy while another person might see a pigeon holed combat tactic with zero options outside of that.
All in all, considering this monk may never even get through all of their ki at mid game, personally, I'd rather do almost the same damage doing almost the same thing AND have the option to fly or cast fireball.
Kensei Monk.
At level 3 they get to expand their weapon options, remember that flurry of blows doesn't work with weapons as it has to be unarmed strikes. So this gives them an average of 1 or 2 more points of damage a turn depending on if they have extra attack yet. That's not bad at all. Monks do very competitive damage in tier 1 and early tier 2. Now the rest of level 3 is interesting to me. They can NOT use their weapon for damage (instead using a much smaller smaller martial arts die) and get a short defense buff. Trading offense for defense or vise versa is never bad as an option as far as I'm concerned. Very flexible. The second ability ends up costing you damage output. Meaning you loose damage based on what you could have with flurry of blows and your weapon. However you gain a little bit of that back and it adds an alright ranged option. You would need to think about if you are switching back and forth between weapon at this point, or what role you are playing in a combat. But! None of this costs any ki more than a baseline monk! So that's good. Ranged attacks and AC buff for less damage output than a baseline monk, but no additional ki cost.
Basically at level 6 you gain the ability to spend 1 ki point to deal an extra 1d6 ( or a higher die at later levels). Ok. Wasn't that one of the complaints of the four elements monk and FotFS, that 1 ki was too expensive for an extra 1d10 of damage? Magic weapon attacks is a solid buff!
At level 11 you can spend up to 3 ki (almost fireball amount) and your (non magical) weapon can gain a buff for 1 minute. That means you can spend the key and get this bonus added to 2 of your attacks for 1 battle. This also costs your bonus action, so you are losing optional flurry of blows and even martial arts damage that turn. Mathematically this is sound over several rounds, and I'm a big proponent for damage over time versus nova damage. This subclass also opens up the door for monks and the sharpshooter feat, which I'm sure the uber optimizers are drooling over. But you have spent 3 ki (let's be honest, at level 11, 3 ki really isn't that much for a potent effect) and used your bonus action to lose damage on your first turn for the benefit of a solid boost to two attacks per round for the rest of the combat.
I get it. Just like the astral self, this is very easy on the ki pool. Heck, you might not even get through all of your ki points with this subclass too. And this does add a little nice ranged option for a monk. Still no AoE or real explosive potential. That's ok. Monks aren't typically big single turn damage dealers.
If a player's concern is running out of ki points ( for some reason considering they are a short rest resource) than these two subclass would be a better fit for those players. If a player thinks that monks do more than fine in the damage and defense department, especially from levels 1 through 10, and want subclass options that offer more explosive effects, the ability to fight off large groups of enemies, bigger movement effects, or very thematic things (like flying), then I still think the four elements is the way to go.
????
Also, why do you think the Astral Self monk wont get through all of their ki at mid game? Because the cost is so low for their abilities?
Firstly, that might be true if there were only one encounter between short rests, but if the DM packs in 2 or 3 or more encounters between those rests (or prevents the party from short resting) then the Astral Self monk (or most other monk subclasses) will still be able to use their features in those later encounters whereas the 4EM may be tapped.
Secondly, even if there were only one or two encounters between short rests, the other monk subclasses wouldn't just do their "special subclass thing" and then save the rest of their ki points. They have just as much ability to burn through their ki points, just not as quickly. But instead of a single turn 4 ki fly or fireball, they will get Flurry of Blows with a Stunning Strike on each blow plus Flurry of Blows the next turn. They will get Patient Defense on several turns to act as a dodge tank when the situation calls for it. They will get Step of the Wind to disengage and maneuver. They will use Focused Aim to more consistently turn misses into hits (just 1 ki point saved can be turned into a +2 to hit in a tight spot). When they use Deflect Missiles, they will be able to enhance their reaction by making the return attack. They will be turning failed saves into successes with Diamond Soul . They will be becoming invisible with Empty Body.
Heck, even if they are overly stingy in using their ki points, they wont necessarily go to waste. Before they start their short rest they can pour their remaining ki points into Quickened Healing to top off their health so they dont have to spend Hit Die to recover their HP.
Just because some of the other monk subclasses have lower cost subclass features does not mean they will be plagued by wasting their ki by not spending it. There are so many abilities the monk have that it can use its ki to use or enhance. Sure, some of them will be used more often than others because they are more often helpful, but theres no reason a monk should feel it has nothing to do with any extra ki points it finds its holding onto.
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I dont recall complaining that FotFS specifically was too expensive, maybe someone else.
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It wasn’t you that said that, Certainly.
I think the expected combats per day and combats between rests (both long and short) must be very different for many of you than anything I have ever experienced, in any edition of this game, especially in this edition. I find about 3 healthy and challenging combats between long rests to be extremely common. And when there is more combats those are typically more dungeon delving, skirmishing style, less challenging combats, so using all of a party’s best stuff is typically unnecessary. This might just be me though.
I also find that combat last either 3, 4, or 5 full rounds. Not like 6+ rounds each.
So my personal experience has been that short rest PCs typically get about as much use out of their abilities as long rest PCs.
Then why bring it up? I understand the question is meant to be rhetorical. I understand the point is to highlight and say "isnt it hypocritical to call this ability expensive and not the one from Kensei?" but the purpose of making that statement is kinda lost at this point in the conversation because the posters who made that argument probably arent even following the thread anymore.
I also want to reiterate that my main point in the previous comment was not about how many encounters occur per short rest (as that will vary on DM) but that any monk (Astral Self, Kensei, or otherwise) will be able to find use for all their ki points one way or another. The 4EM is just able to get through their ki points quicker (if they choose to commit to costlier EDs). Sometimes 3 ki for Shatter could be useful, other times thats 3 failed saves that could have been turned into successes or a +6 to hit on a crucial attack or potentially 3 enemies stunned for over a round, so in the end you gotta weigh what you want your ki to do; however, there isnt a single monk subclass that is only ever going to get stuck in a rut of doing one thing with their ki in combat. And thanks to the Quickened Healing optional rule, a monk has a useful way to dump any remaining ki points before a short rest (unless they survived the encounters with all of their health).
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I brought up the ki for extra damage as I’ve seen that mentioned across several threads multiple times. I wasn’t trying to jam it into our discord.
Yes. All monks, all short rest based characters, can run out of their resources quickly. That strikes me as kind of the mechanical play style built into those classes. For me, the biggest takeaway is that all monk subclasses can all spend 1 ki per round and be ok in the damage department and ok in the resource management department. No subclass choice changes that. It is up to the player to use the options well. The four elements monk does not look to be designed to use a subclass option as often as humanly possible. It just isn’t. Thea are big effects and should, will, can only be used sparingly and tactically. That’s not a fault of the subclass. That’s the nature of the subclass.
If the day is known or turns out to be 8 combats of 4 rounds each with only 1 short rest (like one popular YouTube optimizer claims to use for number crunching) between long rests, than everyone is in danger of running out of gas eventually, if not quickly. If that type of adventuring day is happening then one of two possible things is happening. 1. The DM has used an appropriate amount of total daily CR to put this adventuring day together, so each of these battles are going to come in at about the medium range of difficulty. 2. The DM doesn’t give a hoot about balance and every fight is hard, deadly, or deadly+. Option 1, the game is already built around that (plus 1 additional short rest). Option 2 is just a deadly campaign and it’s going to be tough for all of the players.
I just looked at the mercy monk. It also has ways to deal less damage on a turn. Yes, to be able to heal. But ki is being spent for even less damage than a baseline monk only using flurry of blows.
Note that even this subclass requires to spend ki to get any use out of their level 3, 6, and 11 abilities.
The four elements monk checks out for me in the math department. I hear the criticisms. But I don’t think those are flaws of the subclass, simply the style of the subclass.
Yeah, I’ve always been a proponent of 4E Monk versatility being extremely undervalued. I also think the one complaint of 4E Monk being too resource-dependent is also the weakness of every Monk - the Ki points just seem too linear. At level 2, 2 Ki points barely does anything. At level 20, 20 Ki points means you can Flurry and Stunning Strike on every hit for more than 6 rounds straight…
I’ve been contemplating a “3 X Prof Bonus” option as of late, as a modification. That starts with 6 and ends with 18, so maybe a little healthier for early game Monks in general to do more stuff?
Has anyone thought of using a Dedicated Weapon short bow alongside the 4E abilities? Instead of spending say 9 Ki on Water Whip or Fist of Unbroken Air, perhaps spend 8 and then use Ki-Fueled Attacks with the short bow and Sharpshooter feat, using that leftover Ki on Focused Aim to boost the hit if needed. Wouldn't that result in higher damage overall?
This is more the issue I agree....4E just compounds it
Overall dedicated weapon is an awesome feature and I'm glad it exists. However this scenerio suggests you take the Sharpshooter feat instead of increasing Dex/Wis which would likely reduce your damage per day enough that it's not worth it.
You would miss with attacks more often or have a lower ki DC and thus a lower save.
I think that 4E needs some features that either don't rely on ki or at least synergies with the basic monk stuff