One is that, like other monks, 4E monks can stunning strike and FoB as much as they have Ki for. And use the other ED’s as necessary. But in this case it seems they don’t feel like a elemental monk if they forego their ED’s for stun/FoB.
So...
What if Elemental Attunement was free to use AND did not count against their ED’s known. And Fangs of the Fire Snake became free to use with reach and you could do fire, bludgeoning, thunder, or cold damage (for the 4 elements) and only the extra 1d10 cost the Ki. Make FotFS the ED you get at 3rd level as one of your two ED’s instead of Elemental Attunement. This gives you reach, you can still FoB/SS with it, like you can now (with appropriate Ki cost) and an elemental attack. If the free use is too much, then keep the 1Ki cost but allow you to choose the damage type.
I’m hesitant to introduce another pool to pull from and giving the 4E monk an actual elemental attack they can use regularly would keep in the theme throughout their career, if they kept that ED, and save the Ki for other ED’s
Maybe this would be too much, but a thought.
Being able to have free reach and a variable damage type, even without spending ki definitely sounds like it could be a stand alone subclass feature, although both for free might be powerful. I agree that you should need to spend ki for the extra damage. But I am also not sure.
On a somewhat similar note, I once played around with the idea of tying different elemental abilities to your use of Flurry of Blows (similar to the options presented to Open Hand). Some cost 1 extra ki, others gave a base bonus and could be improved with ki. There were four options for each of the four elements. Water gave you extended reach, Earth allowed you to replace one of your unarmed strikes with a Grapple, Fire gave extra damage, and Air allowed you to replace one of your unarmed strikes with a Shove.
Both of these sound like cool solutions! Alternatively, I have thought about how to connect the three core Martial Arts features to the elements.
Some of the original thoughts I had: Fire: When you activate Flurry of Blows, your reach is increased by 5 feet until the end of the turn and the Unarmed Strikes deal fire damage. Air: When you activate Step of the Wind, you may use both the Disengage and Dash actions using the same bonus action. Earth: When you activate Patient Defense, you cannot be moved or knocked prone against your will. Water [the hardest of the four]: When you activate Flurry of Blows, you can replace any attacks as part of that bonus action with Grapple or Shove attacks.
My initial thought on how to activate these would read something like "As an action, you can spend 2 ki and take one of these four Elemental Stances for the next minute. On the turn you activate this ability, you can use Flurry of Blows as though you had taken the Attack action." Perhaps removing the ki cost of the related Martial Arts feature for that minute would also be justified for balance.
Wow that is awesome! I love this as a core 3rd level feature for an elemental monk!
One is that, like other monks, 4E monks can stunning strike and FoB as much as they have Ki for. And use the other ED’s as necessary. But in this case it seems they don’t feel like a elemental monk if they forego their ED’s for stun/FoB.
So...
What if Elemental Attunement was free to use AND did not count against their ED’s known. And Fangs of the Fire Snake became free to use with reach and you could do fire, bludgeoning, thunder, or cold damage (for the 4 elements) and only the extra 1d10 cost the Ki. Make FotFS the ED you get at 3rd level as one of your two ED’s instead of Elemental Attunement. This gives you reach, you can still FoB/SS with it, like you can now (with appropriate Ki cost) and an elemental attack. If the free use is too much, then keep the 1Ki cost but allow you to choose the damage type.
I’m hesitant to introduce another pool to pull from and giving the 4E monk an actual elemental attack they can use regularly would keep in the theme throughout their career, if they kept that ED, and save the Ki for other ED’s
Maybe this would be too much, but a thought.
Being able to have free reach and a variable damage type, even without spending ki definitely sounds like it could be a stand alone subclass feature, although both for free might be powerful. I agree that you should need to spend ki for the extra damage. But I am also not sure.
On a somewhat similar note, I once played around with the idea of tying different elemental abilities to your use of Flurry of Blows (similar to the options presented to Open Hand). Some cost 1 extra ki, others gave a base bonus and could be improved with ki. There were four options for each of the four elements. Water gave you extended reach, Earth allowed you to replace one of your unarmed strikes with a Grapple, Fire gave extra damage, and Air allowed you to replace one of your unarmed strikes with a Shove.
Both of these sound like cool solutions! Alternatively, I have thought about how to connect the three core Martial Arts features to the elements.
Some of the original thoughts I had: Fire: When you activate Flurry of Blows, your reach is increased by 5 feet until the end of the turn and the Unarmed Strikes deal fire damage. Air: When you activate Step of the Wind, you may use both the Disengage and Dash actions using the same bonus action. Earth: When you activate Patient Defense, you cannot be moved or knocked prone against your will. Water [the hardest of the four]: When you activate Flurry of Blows, you can replace any attacks as part of that bonus action with Grapple or Shove attacks.
My initial thought on how to activate these would read something like "As an action, you can spend 2 ki and take one of these four Elemental Stances for the next minute. On the turn you activate this ability, you can use Flurry of Blows as though you had taken the Attack action." Perhaps removing the ki cost of the related Martial Arts feature for that minute would also be justified for balance.
Wow that is awesome! I love this as a core 3rd level feature for an elemental monk!
Here is the subclass "revision" that I wrote up a while ago (that isnt the 1/3 caster version) if anyone is interested. This has some stuff that is close to what this group of comments have been suggesting.
Tl;dr 3rd level gives the Deflect Energy feature (like what AS monks get) as well as the ability to spend ki to add on additional elemental damage. 6th level gives the interaction with Flurry of Blows I mentioned before. 11th level gives interactions with Patient Defense. 17th level is a potential capstone idea I played with.
It is by no means perfect and i am sure the costs are not balanced, but I tried to draw some inspiration from the way the Open Hand monk and Hunter Ranger worked and tried to make it work with "elemental stances" rather than spellcasting abilities.
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One is that, like other monks, 4E monks can stunning strike and FoB as much as they have Ki for. And use the other ED’s as necessary. But in this case it seems they don’t feel like a elemental monk if they forego their ED’s for stun/FoB.
So...
What if Elemental Attunement was free to use AND did not count against their ED’s known. And Fangs of the Fire Snake became free to use with reach and you could do fire, bludgeoning, thunder, or cold damage (for the 4 elements) and only the extra 1d10 cost the Ki. Make FotFS the ED you get at 3rd level as one of your two ED’s instead of Elemental Attunement. This gives you reach, you can still FoB/SS with it, like you can now (with appropriate Ki cost) and an elemental attack. If the free use is too much, then keep the 1Ki cost but allow you to choose the damage type.
I’m hesitant to introduce another pool to pull from and giving the 4E monk an actual elemental attack they can use regularly would keep in the theme throughout their career, if they kept that ED, and save the Ki for other ED’s
Maybe this would be too much, but a thought.
Being able to have free reach and a variable damage type, even without spending ki definitely sounds like it could be a stand alone subclass feature, although both for free might be powerful. I agree that you should need to spend ki for the extra damage. But I am also not sure.
On a somewhat similar note, I once played around with the idea of tying different elemental abilities to your use of Flurry of Blows (similar to the options presented to Open Hand). Some cost 1 extra ki, others gave a base bonus and could be improved with ki. There were four options for each of the four elements. Water gave you extended reach, Earth allowed you to replace one of your unarmed strikes with a Grapple, Fire gave extra damage, and Air allowed you to replace one of your unarmed strikes with a Shove.
Both of these sound like cool solutions! Alternatively, I have thought about how to connect the three core Martial Arts features to the elements.
Some of the original thoughts I had: Fire: When you activate Flurry of Blows, your reach is increased by 5 feet until the end of the turn and the Unarmed Strikes deal fire damage. Air: When you activate Step of the Wind, you may use both the Disengage and Dash actions using the same bonus action. Earth: When you activate Patient Defense, you cannot be moved or knocked prone against your will. Water [the hardest of the four]: When you activate Flurry of Blows, you can replace any attacks as part of that bonus action with Grapple or Shove attacks.
My initial thought on how to activate these would read something like "As an action, you can spend 2 ki and take one of these four Elemental Stances for the next minute. On the turn you activate this ability, you can use Flurry of Blows as though you had taken the Attack action." Perhaps removing the ki cost of the related Martial Arts feature for that minute would also be justified for balance.
Wow that is awesome! I love this as a core 3rd level feature for an elemental monk!
Here is the subclass "revision" that I wrote up a while ago (that isnt the 1/3 caster version) if anyone is interested. This has some stuff that is close to what this group of comments have been suggesting.
Tl;dr 3rd level gives the Deflect Energy feature (like what AS monks get) as well as the ability to spend ki to add on additional elemental damage. 6th level gives the interaction with Flurry of Blows I mentioned before. 11th level gives interactions with Patient Defense. 17th level is a potential capstone idea I played with.
It is by no means perfect and i am sure the costs are not balanced, but I tried to draw some inspiration from the way the Open Hand monk and Hunter Ranger worked and tried to make it work with "elemental stances" rather than spellcasting abilities.
I like this one too...synergies really really well with monk play!
Water Whip pulling AND knocking prone would be borderline OP. Doing 3d10 damage AND taking a ranged character into reach of your melee fighters AND knocking them prone for said melee fighters would be tremendously powerful if the initiative sequences lines up right. It is much harder to set it up where you can Fist of Unbroken Air a character away from you but into a crowd of allies for them to take advantage of prone via melee attack advantage.
With things like very high natural ability to move around and a bonus action dash. It's actually fairly easy to set up scenario's where you knock an enemy into waiting melee fighters just like you can pull them into melee fighters. There may be other logistical issues in doing so for each individual battle but purely on it's own as your mentioning here it's usually fairly easily possible for the Monk to pull off if there aren't other factors to worry about. Pulling a target into the group of melee's can have it's own issues when you really take all the factors into account for a particular battle just like pushing them in does. Neither one is more borderline OP than the other. They both have their strengths and flaws. They also target different saves which can make them valuable in different ways at different times.
You guys have been busy in this thread while i've been dealing with RL matters. I'll try to just touch on a few things as i get to them and hopefully not overlap too much.
No one here is arguing that Four Elements is the best Monk subclass. No one is arguing that FoUA or WW are better than Stunning Strike. It feels like the detractors of Four Elements Monks are acting like we are all saying "This is the best subclass because it gets something better than Stunning Strike" when that is very distinctly not our argument. The argument is that they add a lot of the Monk kit, which is a really strong chassis as is. Is it all great? No. Is it the best a Monk can do? No. Are they severely underrated at this point because everyone claims they are the worst subclass in the game? Absolutely yes.
(That's either Banneret, Berzerker, or Sun Soul.)
Even I, Which can be accused of being one of the strongest Defenders of the Way of the 4 Elements does not say it's the best. Just that it is strong and Versatile and has way more than people give it credit for. It's a much maligned subclass all based on hearsay and personal bias rather than actual consideration and use.
Berserker is another one maligned in popular opinion anymore and for much of the same reasons. Self Regulated resource management and how to use it wisely instead of just using something a set number of times until the rules tell you to stop. It's actually very strong, What makes it even more Ironic that the Berserker is treated this way is that there has been actual heavily streamed proof that the Berserker is very strong when applied intelligently thanks to things like Critical Role. But people make a lot of excuses how something is better for doing something similar. How doing almost as much is just as good. And complaining that there aren't hard and fast rules about how often they can use Frenzied Rage or how bad Exhaustion is when it's something that can be worked with if you want to. And just as much effort can be put into mitigating it as is put into making PAM deal more damage for a BA attack.
I just think it's the worst subclass due to how underwhelming the best thing it can do is....
Mercy Monk is my pick for best monk because it's synergy with the the monk core is great and you get to do your monk stuff AND the subclass stuff because it's part of flurry of blows.
4E does this stuff that's ok but overall it's just like playing a 1/8 caster and it actually makes you do your monk stuff less due to costs.
You trade monk stuff for.... mediocre caster stuff.
I have to address something here.
Which best thing are you talking about? There are a wide array of things about the 4 elements monk that can be considered the best depending on your criteria or the situations your setting up.
And while we're at it. What tier of play are you meaning for this so called Best? Are we talking high level where the 4 elements can be throwing around multiple fireballs or cone of colds a day? Low level where all Monks are primarily relying on their monkness over their subclasses and it's possible to throw all your ki away in a single turn without ever doing a single subclass thing? Are we talking about somewhere in between? This argument of best is nebulous without a bunch of quaifiers to narrow it down.
Berserker is another one maligned in popular opinion anymore and for much of the same reasons. Self Regulated resource management and how to use it wisely instead of just using something a set number of times until the rules tell you to stop. It's actually very strong, What makes it even more Ironic that the Berserker is treated this way is that there has been actual heavily streamed proof that the Berserker is very strong when applied intelligently thanks to things like Critical Role. But people make a lot of excuses how something is better for doing something similar. How doing almost as much is just as good. And complaining that there aren't hard and fast rules about how often they can use Frenzied Rage or how bad Exhaustion is when it's something that can be worked with if you want to. And just as much effort can be put into mitigating it as is put into making PAM deal more damage for a BA attack.
I cannot get behind that. Berserker's level three benefits can be simulated with Dual Wielder, PAM, or Monk 1. Heck, GWM can give you the bonus action attack if you crit! At level five (and extra attack), it becomes less powerful comparatively. And you can use it, at most, once per day or else you will suffer severe consequences. But this isn't a Barbarian forum, so instead I'll just say that we generally agree with one another about Elemonks.
Barbarians can't afford to spend their rages all day. They start with only two, get a third once they acquire their subclass, and a fourth from 6th-level on. If you're in a dungeon with random and scripted encounters, you're not raging for every fight. Those subclass features that rely on your rage won't always be active. And that's okay.
And adjusting the cost of Elemental Disciplines doesn't work without reshuffling some things. As written, everything that can be scaled upward does in accordance with a half-caster. If you adjust the costs down, say to 1 ki point per level of the spell, then you have to (A) adjust the maximum ki point expenditure down by 1 and (B) move Rush of the Gale Spirits to 6th-level.
And, if that's really what you want to do then fine. But then you're also messing with the very same math that's used for Sorcery Points. You don't have to like it, but there is symmetry between them. You cannot have a conversation about one without a conversation about the other. So, are Sorcery Points in a good place?
And I don't think this is the place to be having that conversation.
Most people do not understand that this is a martial mixed with a Sorcerer. So they will not understand how it's messing with Sorcery points. The 4 elements monk also gets a better ratio of Ki points to "spell slots" when casting their spells than a Sorcerer does. But then most people don't understand sorcery points beyond "those things I spend to do meta-magic". I've seen a lot of players that never understand that there are conversions between sorcery points and spell slots mixed in. Or when they do they only really understand it to enable more metamagic usage.
Just like most people saying that the 4 elements monk is too costly and is bad and is weak have never really broken down and played a 4 elements monk, or necessarily done anything more than what guides tell them to do (dex primary. Dex only until it's 20 and then Wis after, and stunning strike everything even though in practicality that may be dumb and yada yada yada). Most have never tried to play a sorcerer off of Sorcery points or tried to truely understand how it works or it's strengths and weaknesses over the same old same old of set numbers of spell slots. I haven't even gotten to delve into it entirely though I understand it as a base concept. Partly because of 4 elements and their somewhat streamlined version of it.
Following the Way of the Four Elements doesn't take anything away from the monk. Invoking an Elemental Discipline doesn't take anything away from the monk. If a player chooses to take and use these options, then it's safe to assume they have weighed the cost against the benefits. You don't have to agree with it, but it's not your character, either. If you don't like it, then fine. Walk away from this thread.
Because it's downright rude of you to be badmouthing this subclass for five pages now.
Why are you taking this so personally? Who exactly is the recipient of this apparent rudeness? Did you not read the OP? This thread was started by someone that thinks the 4 elements monk is the weakest monk subclass and wanted opinions. Jounichi, you know how you feel about people talking negatively about classes and subclasses. Why do you step into these things all the time? Just to rile yourself up?
Also, yeah, as Squiggit said, 4E stands for 4 elements monk. It's a confusing naming convention, gets me all the time.
Beyond that I'm genuinely confused how people could so adamantly fight against the idea that the 4E monk's Ki is overly taxed. It's quite obvious it is. Just look at how many monk subclasses get at least some new ability that doesn't cost ki. Simple as that.
Also, yes, I agree with the general sentiment of the OP. I don't feel like splitting the minutae between the bottom of the barrel monk subs, but it's definitely not an exciting subclass mechanically.
First off, calm down. No need to be hostile. But the reason why many people feel that 4E deserves a rewrite simply boils down to the fact that it can and often is less fun to play a character that is constantly being outclassed by others. By revising this subclass, it would prevent novice players from aiming for an AtLA-style monk and end up being the LVP of the party. Remember, in the end, having fun is what counts.
Being outclassed is usually because of a misunderstanding of the player... bad instruction by most of the guides... and overall player perception and attitude before they even go into it. The truth is that the 4 elements monk is not always overshadowed. It requires a shift in thinking of what people know and understand of monk to an extent to play fully which many players aren't even aware exists let alone actually use. And it doesn't help that many old timers that help set the perception keep carrying it on endlessly. you want to help novice players. help them understand that there is more to monk than just "I must build up dex and then worry about anything else" And that when it comes to things like Save DC's that Dexterity is not going to help with that and they may get more mileage out of their abilities if they think differently about some things.
Way of Shadow doesn't really care about Wisdom. Way of the Open Hand does at 17th-level, sort of. It's a little weird in that a successful save against Quivering Palm could invoke Instant Death when a failed saving throw cannot. And it does take two turns to trigger, so it's not exactly quick.
Way of the Four Elements is the only subclass in the PHB that actually gives the monk a reason to seriously invest in Wisdom from the start. That alone fills a necessary niche. We can quibble all we want about whether or not we think it lives up to the fantasy, but we also all probably have different ideas as to what that fantasy is. I prefer to meet it on its own terms. And having seen it in action, I wasn't disappointed. And neither was the player.
Quivering Palms DC issues are hidden because it's so high level. By that time most Monks have shored up their Wisdom to increase their DC's back up (though it still doesn't kill technically, only knocks unconcious through hp loss). Which many people forget. Many people are also willing to throw away multiple ki on Stunning Strikes but refuse to correlate it to similar to spending multiple ki on another ability. They tend to insist on seeing it as a bunch of tiny expenditures regardless of the fact that it's basically all towards one end goal affect.
There is almost nothing in most monks besides 4 Elements, with the exception of stunning strike, that focuses on DC's. The only other subclass that might that I can think of might be matt Mercer's. But I don't remember.
many want to judge 4 elements monks by the same exact conditions as other monks either without acknowledging where things are often the same, Or by failing to understand that most other monks would fail if they actually had the conditions that the 4 element monks has (relying largely on things like DC over just a to hit modifier and hoping for the best) but that the 4 elements monk can actually do what they do as well. And they keep trying to separate them out as some how mutually exclusive when they don't have to be.
Now that we have Astral Monk I think they can safely move on from a WIS focused role and shift to a Gish build they were meant to be.
I full on agree that more disciplines would be nice....I too am surprised they haven't done more subclass additions over the books.... If they had a few more that acted as full on debuffs/buffs with less damage I think that might be a GREAT addition.
I think giving them Pact Slots is the fix I prefer overall as it makes them unique amongst official 1/3rd casters and would allow for natural progression of damage without having to worry about ki involvement.
What? Because Being sorcerer Mixes doesn't make them unique? 4 elements monks work on the Alternate Sorcerer rules of using Sorcery Points for everythign to make them less like Wizards and more like their own thing. So why do we have to switch them up to using Pact Slots and yet another Resource to manage to make them unique casters? That's Like Taking an Orange and to say for it to be less like an Apple you need to make it a Lemon, or a Kiwi, or something instead.
Berserker is another one maligned in popular opinion anymore and for much of the same reasons. Self Regulated resource management and how to use it wisely instead of just using something a set number of times until the rules tell you to stop. It's actually very strong, What makes it even more Ironic that the Berserker is treated this way is that there has been actual heavily streamed proof that the Berserker is very strong when applied intelligently thanks to things like Critical Role. But people make a lot of excuses how something is better for doing something similar. How doing almost as much is just as good. And complaining that there aren't hard and fast rules about how often they can use Frenzied Rage or how bad Exhaustion is when it's something that can be worked with if you want to. And just as much effort can be put into mitigating it as is put into making PAM deal more damage for a BA attack.
I cannot get behind that. Berserker's level three benefits can be simulated with Dual Wielder, PAM, or Monk 1. Heck, GWM can give you the bonus action attack if you crit! At level five (and extra attack), it becomes less powerful comparatively. And you can use it, at most, once per day or else you will suffer severe consequences. But this isn't a Barbarian forum, so instead I'll just say that we generally agree with one another about Elemonks.
And yet most of those cannot and will not do the raw damage output on demand off the bat without a bunch of other things to equal that of the Berserker. The closest is the one that Crits and that requires you to crit. It's another matter that peopel are looking at the Cost and going "that's too much" without looking at the circumstances or ways that you can self regulate it and actually change that to your benefit in various different ways. It's also just one power in the entire package that is offered.
Just like Many do with 4 elements monk. They just look at the surface. Say that's too much without understanding the details or the potential benefits that can come of it and such and then write it off as horrible. where as if they try to understand it and the differences in it that makes it unique and the details that can make things beneficial in various ways if they choose to use them. They end up in a completely different place about it.
Berserker is another one maligned in popular opinion anymore and for much of the same reasons. Self Regulated resource management and how to use it wisely instead of just using something a set number of times until the rules tell you to stop. It's actually very strong, What makes it even more Ironic that the Berserker is treated this way is that there has been actual heavily streamed proof that the Berserker is very strong when applied intelligently thanks to things like Critical Role. But people make a lot of excuses how something is better for doing something similar. How doing almost as much is just as good. And complaining that there aren't hard and fast rules about how often they can use Frenzied Rage or how bad Exhaustion is when it's something that can be worked with if you want to. And just as much effort can be put into mitigating it as is put into making PAM deal more damage for a BA attack.
I cannot get behind that. Berserker's level three benefits can be simulated with Dual Wielder, PAM, or Monk 1. Heck, GWM can give you the bonus action attack if you crit! At level five (and extra attack), it becomes less powerful comparatively. And you can use it, at most, once per day or else you will suffer severe consequences. But this isn't a Barbarian forum, so instead I'll just say that we generally agree with one another about Elemonks.
And yet most of those cannot and will not do the raw damage output on demand off the bat without a bunch of other things to equal that of the Berserker. The closest is the one that Crits and that requires you to crit. It's another matter that peopel are looking at the Cost and going "that's too much" without looking at the circumstances or ways that you can self regulate it and actually change that to your benefit in various different ways. It's also just one power in the entire package that is offered.
Just like Many do with 4 elements monk. They just look at the surface. Say that's too much without understanding the details or the potential benefits that can come of it and such and then write it off as horrible. where as if they try to understand it and the differences in it that makes it unique and the details that can make things beneficial in various ways if they choose to use them. They end up in a completely different place about it.
PAM will give you like 90% of the damage and if you use a subclass like Zealot you are coming out ahead thanks to the subclass based damage bonus. Also PAM will likely let you proc Reactions to get another attack so overall its better than Berserker unfortunately.
The exhaustion mechanic is not good as the only way to get rid of it is a long rest at the time you get it....if you follow the suggested convention of 6-8 encounters over a day with 2 short rests you are looking at 2-3 levels of exhaustion by the end of the day...which is not including any other sources of exhaustion you could get during the day.
All while the PAM barb gets 0 levels of exhaustion for 90% of your damage.
This means DIS on all your attacks, saving throws, ability checks and your speed is halved. Its just not worth it.
The simple way I generally fix this is letting the berserker ignore exhaustion while they are raging...it at least makes them playable.
It does not take much to look at it and see how flawed the approach was for this subclass...its much more egregious than 4 elements for sure. 4 elements at least doesn't penalize you for using your subclass.
Berserker is another one maligned in popular opinion anymore and for much of the same reasons. Self Regulated resource management and how to use it wisely instead of just using something a set number of times until the rules tell you to stop. It's actually very strong, What makes it even more Ironic that the Berserker is treated this way is that there has been actual heavily streamed proof that the Berserker is very strong when applied intelligently thanks to things like Critical Role. But people make a lot of excuses how something is better for doing something similar. How doing almost as much is just as good. And complaining that there aren't hard and fast rules about how often they can use Frenzied Rage or how bad Exhaustion is when it's something that can be worked with if you want to. And just as much effort can be put into mitigating it as is put into making PAM deal more damage for a BA attack.
I cannot get behind that. Berserker's level three benefits can be simulated with Dual Wielder, PAM, or Monk 1. Heck, GWM can give you the bonus action attack if you crit! At level five (and extra attack), it becomes less powerful comparatively. And you can use it, at most, once per day or else you will suffer severe consequences. But this isn't a Barbarian forum, so instead I'll just say that we generally agree with one another about Elemonks.
And yet most of those cannot and will not do the raw damage output on demand off the bat without a bunch of other things to equal that of the Berserker. The closest is the one that Crits and that requires you to crit. It's another matter that peopel are looking at the Cost and going "that's too much" without looking at the circumstances or ways that you can self regulate it and actually change that to your benefit in various different ways. It's also just one power in the entire package that is offered.
Just like Many do with 4 elements monk. They just look at the surface. Say that's too much without understanding the details or the potential benefits that can come of it and such and then write it off as horrible. where as if they try to understand it and the differences in it that makes it unique and the details that can make things beneficial in various ways if they choose to use them. They end up in a completely different place about it.
PAM will give you like 90% of the damage and if you use a subclass like Zealot you are coming out ahead thanks to the subclass based damage bonus. Also PAM will likely let you proc Reactions to get another attack so overall its better than Berserker unfortunately.
The exhaustion mechanic is not good as the only way to get rid of it is a long rest at the time you get it....if you follow the suggested convention of 6-8 encounters over a day with 2 short rests you are looking at 2-3 levels of exhaustion by the end of the day...which is not including any other sources of exhaustion you could get during the day.
All while the PAM barb gets 0 levels of exhaustion for 90% of your damage.
This means DIS on all your attacks, saving throws, ability checks and your speed is halved. Its just not worth it.
The simple way I generally fix this is letting the berserker ignore exhaustion while they are raging...it at least makes them playable.
It does not take much to look at it and see how flawed the approach was for this subclass...its much more egregious than 4 elements for sure. 4 elements at least doesn't penalize you for using your subclass.
Pam? 90% of the damage on it's own? a starting dice of a d4 is the same as something doing a d12 or 2d6 that is most often wielded by Barbarians.
It's not 90% of the damage. Going by just the dice alone it's 1/3 of the damage. Even after adding on things like stat bonuses and rage. It's still more equivalent to 1/2 since your talking about something between +7 and +9 assuming Max strength and dependant on level.
Zealot overcomes this damage difference , but only if your considering overall damage over all attacks and not just the bonus action attack because it's extra damage doesn't actually apply to the bonus action attack. A detail that's often not stated though it is a detail that needs to be taken into account depending on what your comparing. Zealot might overcome it with the right combination based upon a combination of level and/or number of targets that the aura can affect.
Many of the others having trouble closing the gap any further.
On top of that. Long rest is not actually the only way to get rid of exhaustion. It's just the easiest. Greater Restoration is one of the next easiest but slightly costly. Though there are other affects that will do it too if you really want to go digging. this is just another example of how people don't really think things through. they just go by what they are told and everybody gets hung up on the exhaustion bit. The other reality is that you do not need to be using it constantly which means if you control yourself for the most part 1 level of Exhaustion is not necessarily that much worse than other once a day abilities. it's a trade off compared to something like Action Surge which is also once a day for most levels of play. Except that it's affects can last potentially much longer rather than being relegated to a single turn.
Just another example of people not thinking it through. Not showing self control over the usage of their abilities in arguments against it. or cherry picking examples that play best into their favor to compare it against without admitting either limitations or requirements to their examples to make them work.
Berserker is another one maligned in popular opinion anymore and for much of the same reasons. Self Regulated resource management and how to use it wisely instead of just using something a set number of times until the rules tell you to stop. It's actually very strong, What makes it even more Ironic that the Berserker is treated this way is that there has been actual heavily streamed proof that the Berserker is very strong when applied intelligently thanks to things like Critical Role. But people make a lot of excuses how something is better for doing something similar. How doing almost as much is just as good. And complaining that there aren't hard and fast rules about how often they can use Frenzied Rage or how bad Exhaustion is when it's something that can be worked with if you want to. And just as much effort can be put into mitigating it as is put into making PAM deal more damage for a BA attack.
I cannot get behind that. Berserker's level three benefits can be simulated with Dual Wielder, PAM, or Monk 1. Heck, GWM can give you the bonus action attack if you crit! At level five (and extra attack), it becomes less powerful comparatively. And you can use it, at most, once per day or else you will suffer severe consequences. But this isn't a Barbarian forum, so instead I'll just say that we generally agree with one another about Elemonks.
And yet most of those cannot and will not do the raw damage output on demand off the bat without a bunch of other things to equal that of the Berserker. The closest is the one that Crits and that requires you to crit. It's another matter that peopel are looking at the Cost and going "that's too much" without looking at the circumstances or ways that you can self regulate it and actually change that to your benefit in various different ways. It's also just one power in the entire package that is offered.
Just like Many do with 4 elements monk. They just look at the surface. Say that's too much without understanding the details or the potential benefits that can come of it and such and then write it off as horrible. where as if they try to understand it and the differences in it that makes it unique and the details that can make things beneficial in various ways if they choose to use them. They end up in a completely different place about it.
PAM will give you like 90% of the damage and if you use a subclass like Zealot you are coming out ahead thanks to the subclass based damage bonus. Also PAM will likely let you proc Reactions to get another attack so overall its better than Berserker unfortunately.
The exhaustion mechanic is not good as the only way to get rid of it is a long rest at the time you get it....if you follow the suggested convention of 6-8 encounters over a day with 2 short rests you are looking at 2-3 levels of exhaustion by the end of the day...which is not including any other sources of exhaustion you could get during the day.
All while the PAM barb gets 0 levels of exhaustion for 90% of your damage.
This means DIS on all your attacks, saving throws, ability checks and your speed is halved. Its just not worth it.
The simple way I generally fix this is letting the berserker ignore exhaustion while they are raging...it at least makes them playable.
It does not take much to look at it and see how flawed the approach was for this subclass...its much more egregious than 4 elements for sure. 4 elements at least doesn't penalize you for using your subclass.
Pam? 90% of the damage on it's own? a starting dice of a d4 is the same as something doing a d12 or 2d6 that is most often wielded by Barbarians.
It's not 90% of the damage. Going by just the dice alone it's 1/3 of the damage. Even after adding on things like stat bonuses and rage. It's still more equivalent to 1/2 since your talking about something between +7 and +9 assuming Max strength and dependant on level.
Zealot overcomes this damage difference , but only if your considering overall damage over all attacks and not just the bonus action attack because it's extra damage doesn't actually apply to the bonus action attack. A detail that's often not stated though it is a detail that needs to be taken into account depending on what your comparing. Zealot might overcome it with the right combination based upon a combination of level and/or number of targets that the aura can affect.
Many of the others having trouble closing the gap any further.
On top of that. Long rest is not actually the only way to get rid of exhaustion. It's just the easiest. Greater Restoration is one of the next easiest but slightly costly. Though there are other affects that will do it too if you really want to go digging. this is just another example of how people don't really think things through. they just go by what they are told and everybody gets hung up on the exhaustion bit. The other reality is that you do not need to be using it constantly which means if you control yourself for the most part 1 level of Exhaustion is not necessarily that much worse than other once a day abilities. it's a trade off compared to something like Action Surge which is also once a day for most levels of play. Except that it's affects can last potentially much longer rather than being relegated to a single turn.
Just another example of people not thinking it through. Not showing self control over the usage of their abilities in arguments against it. or cherry picking examples that play best into their favor to compare it against without admitting either limitations or requirements to their examples to make them work.
Doing the Math:
At level 3:
Zerk: 2d6+5 attack then 2d6+5 BA attack = 24 dmg average
PAM V. Human: 1d10+5 attack then 1d4+5 BA attack = 18 damage
so 75% of the damage with just PAM so less than the 90% but still only 6 points difference with no subclass benefits for the PAM even taken into account.
....if you include Zealot: 1d6+1 = 23.5 or almost exactly the same as Zerk...except you do not have to take a level of exhaustion to get there.
So you get the only real benefit zerk gets at that level (damage) and you get to be raised from the dead for free.
This is also ignoring the fact that you can proc a AoO by something simply coming into your reach.....if you get one AoO that is 1d10+5 which is another 10.5 damage that easily puts you ahead of the Zerk barb.
Berserker is another one maligned in popular opinion anymore and for much of the same reasons. Self Regulated resource management and how to use it wisely instead of just using something a set number of times until the rules tell you to stop. It's actually very strong, What makes it even more Ironic that the Berserker is treated this way is that there has been actual heavily streamed proof that the Berserker is very strong when applied intelligently thanks to things like Critical Role. But people make a lot of excuses how something is better for doing something similar. How doing almost as much is just as good. And complaining that there aren't hard and fast rules about how often they can use Frenzied Rage or how bad Exhaustion is when it's something that can be worked with if you want to. And just as much effort can be put into mitigating it as is put into making PAM deal more damage for a BA attack.
I cannot get behind that. Berserker's level three benefits can be simulated with Dual Wielder, PAM, or Monk 1. Heck, GWM can give you the bonus action attack if you crit! At level five (and extra attack), it becomes less powerful comparatively. And you can use it, at most, once per day or else you will suffer severe consequences. But this isn't a Barbarian forum, so instead I'll just say that we generally agree with one another about Elemonks.
And yet most of those cannot and will not do the raw damage output on demand off the bat without a bunch of other things to equal that of the Berserker. The closest is the one that Crits and that requires you to crit. It's another matter that peopel are looking at the Cost and going "that's too much" without looking at the circumstances or ways that you can self regulate it and actually change that to your benefit in various different ways. It's also just one power in the entire package that is offered.
Just like Many do with 4 elements monk. They just look at the surface. Say that's too much without understanding the details or the potential benefits that can come of it and such and then write it off as horrible. where as if they try to understand it and the differences in it that makes it unique and the details that can make things beneficial in various ways if they choose to use them. They end up in a completely different place about it.
PAM will give you like 90% of the damage and if you use a subclass like Zealot you are coming out ahead thanks to the subclass based damage bonus. Also PAM will likely let you proc Reactions to get another attack so overall its better than Berserker unfortunately.
The exhaustion mechanic is not good as the only way to get rid of it is a long rest at the time you get it....if you follow the suggested convention of 6-8 encounters over a day with 2 short rests you are looking at 2-3 levels of exhaustion by the end of the day...which is not including any other sources of exhaustion you could get during the day.
All while the PAM barb gets 0 levels of exhaustion for 90% of your damage.
This means DIS on all your attacks, saving throws, ability checks and your speed is halved. Its just not worth it.
The simple way I generally fix this is letting the berserker ignore exhaustion while they are raging...it at least makes them playable.
It does not take much to look at it and see how flawed the approach was for this subclass...its much more egregious than 4 elements for sure. 4 elements at least doesn't penalize you for using your subclass.
Take a feat at 4th-level or else play as a variant human or someone with a custom lineage; thus limiting your choice of race or ASI.
And you're still saying someone should pick a different subclass. You don't like a lot of things others do. That's fine, everyone is entitled to their own taste. But don't ever confuse your judgment for being best. Everything you tear down works. They work well. They just don't work the way you want them to.
Berserker is another one maligned in popular opinion anymore and for much of the same reasons. Self Regulated resource management and how to use it wisely instead of just using something a set number of times until the rules tell you to stop. It's actually very strong, What makes it even more Ironic that the Berserker is treated this way is that there has been actual heavily streamed proof that the Berserker is very strong when applied intelligently thanks to things like Critical Role. But people make a lot of excuses how something is better for doing something similar. How doing almost as much is just as good. And complaining that there aren't hard and fast rules about how often they can use Frenzied Rage or how bad Exhaustion is when it's something that can be worked with if you want to. And just as much effort can be put into mitigating it as is put into making PAM deal more damage for a BA attack.
I cannot get behind that. Berserker's level three benefits can be simulated with Dual Wielder, PAM, or Monk 1. Heck, GWM can give you the bonus action attack if you crit! At level five (and extra attack), it becomes less powerful comparatively. And you can use it, at most, once per day or else you will suffer severe consequences. But this isn't a Barbarian forum, so instead I'll just say that we generally agree with one another about Elemonks.
And yet most of those cannot and will not do the raw damage output on demand off the bat without a bunch of other things to equal that of the Berserker. The closest is the one that Crits and that requires you to crit. It's another matter that peopel are looking at the Cost and going "that's too much" without looking at the circumstances or ways that you can self regulate it and actually change that to your benefit in various different ways. It's also just one power in the entire package that is offered.
Just like Many do with 4 elements monk. They just look at the surface. Say that's too much without understanding the details or the potential benefits that can come of it and such and then write it off as horrible. where as if they try to understand it and the differences in it that makes it unique and the details that can make things beneficial in various ways if they choose to use them. They end up in a completely different place about it.
PAM will give you like 90% of the damage and if you use a subclass like Zealot you are coming out ahead thanks to the subclass based damage bonus. Also PAM will likely let you proc Reactions to get another attack so overall its better than Berserker unfortunately.
The exhaustion mechanic is not good as the only way to get rid of it is a long rest at the time you get it....if you follow the suggested convention of 6-8 encounters over a day with 2 short rests you are looking at 2-3 levels of exhaustion by the end of the day...which is not including any other sources of exhaustion you could get during the day.
All while the PAM barb gets 0 levels of exhaustion for 90% of your damage.
This means DIS on all your attacks, saving throws, ability checks and your speed is halved. Its just not worth it.
The simple way I generally fix this is letting the berserker ignore exhaustion while they are raging...it at least makes them playable.
It does not take much to look at it and see how flawed the approach was for this subclass...its much more egregious than 4 elements for sure. 4 elements at least doesn't penalize you for using your subclass.
Pam? 90% of the damage on it's own? a starting dice of a d4 is the same as something doing a d12 or 2d6 that is most often wielded by Barbarians.
It's not 90% of the damage. Going by just the dice alone it's 1/3 of the damage. Even after adding on things like stat bonuses and rage. It's still more equivalent to 1/2 since your talking about something between +7 and +9 assuming Max strength and dependant on level.
Zealot overcomes this damage difference , but only if your considering overall damage over all attacks and not just the bonus action attack because it's extra damage doesn't actually apply to the bonus action attack. A detail that's often not stated though it is a detail that needs to be taken into account depending on what your comparing. Zealot might overcome it with the right combination based upon a combination of level and/or number of targets that the aura can affect.
Many of the others having trouble closing the gap any further.
On top of that. Long rest is not actually the only way to get rid of exhaustion. It's just the easiest. Greater Restoration is one of the next easiest but slightly costly. Though there are other affects that will do it too if you really want to go digging. this is just another example of how people don't really think things through. they just go by what they are told and everybody gets hung up on the exhaustion bit. The other reality is that you do not need to be using it constantly which means if you control yourself for the most part 1 level of Exhaustion is not necessarily that much worse than other once a day abilities. it's a trade off compared to something like Action Surge which is also once a day for most levels of play. Except that it's affects can last potentially much longer rather than being relegated to a single turn.
Just another example of people not thinking it through. Not showing self control over the usage of their abilities in arguments against it. or cherry picking examples that play best into their favor to compare it against without admitting either limitations or requirements to their examples to make them work.
Doing the Math:
At level 3:
Zerk: 2d6+5 attack then 2d6+5 BA attack = 24 dmg average
PAM V. Human: 1d10+5 attack then 1d4+5 BA attack = 18 damage
so 75% of the damage with just PAM so less than the 90% but still only 6 points difference with no subclass benefits for the PAM even taken into account.
....if you include Zealot: 1d6+1 = 23.5 or almost exactly the same as Zerk...except you do not have to take a level of exhaustion to get there.
So you get the only real benefit zerk gets at that level (damage) and you get to be raised from the dead for free.
This is also ignoring the fact that you can proc a AoO by something simply coming into your reach.....if you get one AoO that is 1d10+5 which is another 10.5 damage that easily puts you ahead of the Zerk barb.
75% of the damage relying on overall damage for the entire turn. It's a shifting of the goal post to make it seem like it's better. But much of that damage difference is coming from the first hit. Not from PAM as your claiming.
PAM's BA attack on it's own. Which is what your saying is just as good is doing 1d4+5 by your own modifiers. This means an average damage of 7 and a max damage of 9. The BA attack from the Berserker however is doing 11 average damage and a maximum of 17. at best your getting 66% of the damage out of it when comparing these two attacks when considering averages but it's about 55% of the damage when considering maximums. And this is at one of it's best comparisons.
Your actually setting up a smoke screen and argueing different goals when your argueing Differences in the BA attack damage but do all the argueing from a point of overall damage of the turn because that is something different than just comparing the single attack. The same goes for all the numbers you want to give for Path of the Zealot damage on top of it.
The only valid stance that you can really make between the two is over length of time of usage. But your not making that argument. Perhaps because that argument doesn't occur to you. Or perhaps because you don't realize the shifted standards your argueing from to make your stance that the BA damage is the same when it is clearly not if you'd actually look.
Note I did not say that that the Zealot was incapable of doing the same Damage as the Berserker. What i said is the BA attack damage is not the same. Which it is not. My argument was not disengenuous or argueing from a different goal point to reach the end point of what I said.
Nor did I ignore the fact of things like AoO's. But the issue was never about AoO's. There is a lot of assumptions made in most arguments about them. Many of them involve in people triggering them or that you have them available at the time a triggering event occurs or that a similar triggering event cannot work for the other party. Otherwise I would have mentioned all of these things.
This same way of doing things is the way that many approach the 4 elements monk. They argue one thing but then change the goal of the argument to turn it into things like pure base cost of each individual actions rather than admitting that the actions add up to the whole. Or argue for the whole without being up front and clear about when and where the pieces might actually fit together. This thread is full of such examples. Many of which I've actually been able to refute for various reasons. With Details as to when and why they are not what popular perception demands them to be. Or that popular Perception is actually being deceptive about other things such as the typical costs involved in stunning Stunning Strike or it's own weaknesses.
Its a better comparison to look at average damage. Also percentages are misleading as 66% sounds impressive....but if you asked a player if they would want to do 6 more points of a damage a turn in exchange for a level of exhaustion then it puts that in different light.
It is unfair from your perspective to allow subclass abilities from Berzerker and not from the PAM Barbarian who chose another subclass. If you want an apples to apples comparison you could give the Berzerker GWM as a v.human and that would even things out more and be a fair comparison. In that case I do think the Berzerker would come out ahead but likely fall behind later to other subclasses that get PAM+GWM at level 4....especially considering they can get a AoO more frequently as I mentioned.
The bottom line is a feat approximates 75% of your damage without having the huge penalty of a level of exhaustion. It does not take a lot of reasoning to see this is a horrible trade off and that the feat will not only provide the majority of the damage BEFORE you even include your alternative subclass choice....but you also get the benefits of said subclass that are not damage related in addition.
The benefits you get from PAM not only approximate the vast majority of the benefits from the Berserker subclass it adds a feature that is arguably even better than its 14th level ability that allows you to use a reaction to attack a creature.
Overall its not hard to see why Berzerker is a terribly designed subclass and is rightfully panned as one of the worst.
I like a nice debate, but this is a thread about 4 Elements Monk, on the Monk class Forum. Could we continue in that line, if there is anything else to say about it?
Frenzied Rage isn't designed for every combat. Hell, Rage isn't designed for every combat. There are no less than six (I'm working from memory here, not bothering to look up the actual number) potential combat encounters just in Cragmaw Castle. A 3rd-level barbarian isn't going to waste their uses of Rage per long rest on the first half of the dungeon. And the party isn't going to stop and give them a long rest just because the "big guy" is running on empty. They're on the clock.
But when you absolutely have to kill something, not much else compares. Fighters and Way of the Zealot barbarians can get close, but none of them can truly match it. And that's not bothering with feats. You want to give PAM to the zelaot? Fine, but the berserker gets GWM. And they get to add +30 on their turn with a bigger weapon.
###
But, as fun as this has been, we've gone horribly off-topic. This is about the Way of the Four Elements. Some of the arguments are similar. And while I don't want to say, "You just don't get it, man," I'm starting to think it might be true. Some of us just refuse to recognize the subclass and the design behind it for what it is; rather than what we wish it would be.
And if you want to change it for your game, then fine. But changing something you don't understand isn't going to make it work better because you lack the understanding to know what it lacks. And any such discussion probably belongs in a homebrew forum and not here.
Wow that is awesome! I love this as a core 3rd level feature for an elemental monk!
Here is the subclass "revision" that I wrote up a while ago (that isnt the 1/3 caster version) if anyone is interested. This has some stuff that is close to what this group of comments have been suggesting.
Tl;dr 3rd level gives the Deflect Energy feature (like what AS monks get) as well as the ability to spend ki to add on additional elemental damage. 6th level gives the interaction with Flurry of Blows I mentioned before. 11th level gives interactions with Patient Defense. 17th level is a potential capstone idea I played with.
It is by no means perfect and i am sure the costs are not balanced, but I tried to draw some inspiration from the way the Open Hand monk and Hunter Ranger worked and tried to make it work with "elemental stances" rather than spellcasting abilities.
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I like this one too...synergies really really well with monk play!
With things like very high natural ability to move around and a bonus action dash. It's actually fairly easy to set up scenario's where you knock an enemy into waiting melee fighters just like you can pull them into melee fighters. There may be other logistical issues in doing so for each individual battle but purely on it's own as your mentioning here it's usually fairly easily possible for the Monk to pull off if there aren't other factors to worry about. Pulling a target into the group of melee's can have it's own issues when you really take all the factors into account for a particular battle just like pushing them in does. Neither one is more borderline OP than the other. They both have their strengths and flaws. They also target different saves which can make them valuable in different ways at different times.
Even I, Which can be accused of being one of the strongest Defenders of the Way of the 4 Elements does not say it's the best. Just that it is strong and Versatile and has way more than people give it credit for. It's a much maligned subclass all based on hearsay and personal bias rather than actual consideration and use.
Berserker is another one maligned in popular opinion anymore and for much of the same reasons. Self Regulated resource management and how to use it wisely instead of just using something a set number of times until the rules tell you to stop. It's actually very strong, What makes it even more Ironic that the Berserker is treated this way is that there has been actual heavily streamed proof that the Berserker is very strong when applied intelligently thanks to things like Critical Role. But people make a lot of excuses how something is better for doing something similar. How doing almost as much is just as good. And complaining that there aren't hard and fast rules about how often they can use Frenzied Rage or how bad Exhaustion is when it's something that can be worked with if you want to. And just as much effort can be put into mitigating it as is put into making PAM deal more damage for a BA attack.
I have to address something here.
Which best thing are you talking about? There are a wide array of things about the 4 elements monk that can be considered the best depending on your criteria or the situations your setting up.
And while we're at it. What tier of play are you meaning for this so called Best? Are we talking high level where the 4 elements can be throwing around multiple fireballs or cone of colds a day? Low level where all Monks are primarily relying on their monkness over their subclasses and it's possible to throw all your ki away in a single turn without ever doing a single subclass thing? Are we talking about somewhere in between? This argument of best is nebulous without a bunch of quaifiers to narrow it down.
I cannot get behind that. Berserker's level three benefits can be simulated with Dual Wielder, PAM, or Monk 1. Heck, GWM can give you the bonus action attack if you crit! At level five (and extra attack), it becomes less powerful comparatively. And you can use it, at most, once per day or else you will suffer severe consequences. But this isn't a Barbarian forum, so instead I'll just say that we generally agree with one another about Elemonks.
Most people do not understand that this is a martial mixed with a Sorcerer. So they will not understand how it's messing with Sorcery points. The 4 elements monk also gets a better ratio of Ki points to "spell slots" when casting their spells than a Sorcerer does. But then most people don't understand sorcery points beyond "those things I spend to do meta-magic". I've seen a lot of players that never understand that there are conversions between sorcery points and spell slots mixed in. Or when they do they only really understand it to enable more metamagic usage.
Just like most people saying that the 4 elements monk is too costly and is bad and is weak have never really broken down and played a 4 elements monk, or necessarily done anything more than what guides tell them to do (dex primary. Dex only until it's 20 and then Wis after, and stunning strike everything even though in practicality that may be dumb and yada yada yada). Most have never tried to play a sorcerer off of Sorcery points or tried to truely understand how it works or it's strengths and weaknesses over the same old same old of set numbers of spell slots. I haven't even gotten to delve into it entirely though I understand it as a base concept. Partly because of 4 elements and their somewhat streamlined version of it.
Being outclassed is usually because of a misunderstanding of the player... bad instruction by most of the guides... and overall player perception and attitude before they even go into it. The truth is that the 4 elements monk is not always overshadowed. It requires a shift in thinking of what people know and understand of monk to an extent to play fully which many players aren't even aware exists let alone actually use. And it doesn't help that many old timers that help set the perception keep carrying it on endlessly. you want to help novice players. help them understand that there is more to monk than just "I must build up dex and then worry about anything else" And that when it comes to things like Save DC's that Dexterity is not going to help with that and they may get more mileage out of their abilities if they think differently about some things.
Quivering Palms DC issues are hidden because it's so high level. By that time most Monks have shored up their Wisdom to increase their DC's back up (though it still doesn't kill technically, only knocks unconcious through hp loss). Which many people forget. Many people are also willing to throw away multiple ki on Stunning Strikes but refuse to correlate it to similar to spending multiple ki on another ability. They tend to insist on seeing it as a bunch of tiny expenditures regardless of the fact that it's basically all towards one end goal affect.
There is almost nothing in most monks besides 4 Elements, with the exception of stunning strike, that focuses on DC's. The only other subclass that might that I can think of might be matt Mercer's. But I don't remember.
many want to judge 4 elements monks by the same exact conditions as other monks either without acknowledging where things are often the same, Or by failing to understand that most other monks would fail if they actually had the conditions that the 4 element monks has (relying largely on things like DC over just a to hit modifier and hoping for the best) but that the 4 elements monk can actually do what they do as well. And they keep trying to separate them out as some how mutually exclusive when they don't have to be.
What? Because Being sorcerer Mixes doesn't make them unique? 4 elements monks work on the Alternate Sorcerer rules of using Sorcery Points for everythign to make them less like Wizards and more like their own thing. So why do we have to switch them up to using Pact Slots and yet another Resource to manage to make them unique casters? That's Like Taking an Orange and to say for it to be less like an Apple you need to make it a Lemon, or a Kiwi, or something instead.
And yet most of those cannot and will not do the raw damage output on demand off the bat without a bunch of other things to equal that of the Berserker. The closest is the one that Crits and that requires you to crit. It's another matter that peopel are looking at the Cost and going "that's too much" without looking at the circumstances or ways that you can self regulate it and actually change that to your benefit in various different ways. It's also just one power in the entire package that is offered.
Just like Many do with 4 elements monk. They just look at the surface. Say that's too much without understanding the details or the potential benefits that can come of it and such and then write it off as horrible. where as if they try to understand it and the differences in it that makes it unique and the details that can make things beneficial in various ways if they choose to use them. They end up in a completely different place about it.
PAM will give you like 90% of the damage and if you use a subclass like Zealot you are coming out ahead thanks to the subclass based damage bonus. Also PAM will likely let you proc Reactions to get another attack so overall its better than Berserker unfortunately.
The exhaustion mechanic is not good as the only way to get rid of it is a long rest at the time you get it....if you follow the suggested convention of 6-8 encounters over a day with 2 short rests you are looking at 2-3 levels of exhaustion by the end of the day...which is not including any other sources of exhaustion you could get during the day.
All while the PAM barb gets 0 levels of exhaustion for 90% of your damage.
This means DIS on all your attacks, saving throws, ability checks and your speed is halved. Its just not worth it.
The simple way I generally fix this is letting the berserker ignore exhaustion while they are raging...it at least makes them playable.
It does not take much to look at it and see how flawed the approach was for this subclass...its much more egregious than 4 elements for sure. 4 elements at least doesn't penalize you for using your subclass.
Pam? 90% of the damage on it's own? a starting dice of a d4 is the same as something doing a d12 or 2d6 that is most often wielded by Barbarians.
It's not 90% of the damage. Going by just the dice alone it's 1/3 of the damage. Even after adding on things like stat bonuses and rage. It's still more equivalent to 1/2 since your talking about something between +7 and +9 assuming Max strength and dependant on level.
Zealot overcomes this damage difference , but only if your considering overall damage over all attacks and not just the bonus action attack because it's extra damage doesn't actually apply to the bonus action attack. A detail that's often not stated though it is a detail that needs to be taken into account depending on what your comparing. Zealot might overcome it with the right combination based upon a combination of level and/or number of targets that the aura can affect.
Many of the others having trouble closing the gap any further.
On top of that. Long rest is not actually the only way to get rid of exhaustion. It's just the easiest. Greater Restoration is one of the next easiest but slightly costly. Though there are other affects that will do it too if you really want to go digging. this is just another example of how people don't really think things through. they just go by what they are told and everybody gets hung up on the exhaustion bit. The other reality is that you do not need to be using it constantly which means if you control yourself for the most part 1 level of Exhaustion is not necessarily that much worse than other once a day abilities. it's a trade off compared to something like Action Surge which is also once a day for most levels of play. Except that it's affects can last potentially much longer rather than being relegated to a single turn.
Just another example of people not thinking it through. Not showing self control over the usage of their abilities in arguments against it. or cherry picking examples that play best into their favor to compare it against without admitting either limitations or requirements to their examples to make them work.
Doing the Math:
At level 3:
Zerk: 2d6+5 attack then 2d6+5 BA attack = 24 dmg average
PAM V. Human: 1d10+5 attack then 1d4+5 BA attack = 18 damage
so 75% of the damage with just PAM so less than the 90% but still only 6 points difference with no subclass benefits for the PAM even taken into account.
....if you include Zealot: 1d6+1 = 23.5 or almost exactly the same as Zerk...except you do not have to take a level of exhaustion to get there.
So you get the only real benefit zerk gets at that level (damage) and you get to be raised from the dead for free.
This is also ignoring the fact that you can proc a AoO by something simply coming into your reach.....if you get one AoO that is 1d10+5 which is another 10.5 damage that easily puts you ahead of the Zerk barb.
And in order to get that to work, you have to:
And you're still saying someone should pick a different subclass. You don't like a lot of things others do. That's fine, everyone is entitled to their own taste. But don't ever confuse your judgment for being best. Everything you tear down works. They work well. They just don't work the way you want them to.
75% of the damage relying on overall damage for the entire turn. It's a shifting of the goal post to make it seem like it's better. But much of that damage difference is coming from the first hit. Not from PAM as your claiming.
PAM's BA attack on it's own. Which is what your saying is just as good is doing 1d4+5 by your own modifiers. This means an average damage of 7 and a max damage of 9. The BA attack from the Berserker however is doing 11 average damage and a maximum of 17. at best your getting 66% of the damage out of it when comparing these two attacks when considering averages but it's about 55% of the damage when considering maximums. And this is at one of it's best comparisons.
Your actually setting up a smoke screen and argueing different goals when your argueing Differences in the BA attack damage but do all the argueing from a point of overall damage of the turn because that is something different than just comparing the single attack. The same goes for all the numbers you want to give for Path of the Zealot damage on top of it.
The only valid stance that you can really make between the two is over length of time of usage. But your not making that argument. Perhaps because that argument doesn't occur to you. Or perhaps because you don't realize the shifted standards your argueing from to make your stance that the BA damage is the same when it is clearly not if you'd actually look.
Note I did not say that that the Zealot was incapable of doing the same Damage as the Berserker. What i said is the BA attack damage is not the same. Which it is not. My argument was not disengenuous or argueing from a different goal point to reach the end point of what I said.
Nor did I ignore the fact of things like AoO's. But the issue was never about AoO's. There is a lot of assumptions made in most arguments about them. Many of them involve in people triggering them or that you have them available at the time a triggering event occurs or that a similar triggering event cannot work for the other party. Otherwise I would have mentioned all of these things.
This same way of doing things is the way that many approach the 4 elements monk. They argue one thing but then change the goal of the argument to turn it into things like pure base cost of each individual actions rather than admitting that the actions add up to the whole. Or argue for the whole without being up front and clear about when and where the pieces might actually fit together. This thread is full of such examples. Many of which I've actually been able to refute for various reasons. With Details as to when and why they are not what popular perception demands them to be. Or that popular Perception is actually being deceptive about other things such as the typical costs involved in stunning Stunning Strike or it's own weaknesses.
Its a better comparison to look at average damage. Also percentages are misleading as 66% sounds impressive....but if you asked a player if they would want to do 6 more points of a damage a turn in exchange for a level of exhaustion then it puts that in different light.
It is unfair from your perspective to allow subclass abilities from Berzerker and not from the PAM Barbarian who chose another subclass. If you want an apples to apples comparison you could give the Berzerker GWM as a v.human and that would even things out more and be a fair comparison. In that case I do think the Berzerker would come out ahead but likely fall behind later to other subclasses that get PAM+GWM at level 4....especially considering they can get a AoO more frequently as I mentioned.
The bottom line is a feat approximates 75% of your damage without having the huge penalty of a level of exhaustion. It does not take a lot of reasoning to see this is a horrible trade off and that the feat will not only provide the majority of the damage BEFORE you even include your alternative subclass choice....but you also get the benefits of said subclass that are not damage related in addition.
The benefits you get from PAM not only approximate the vast majority of the benefits from the Berserker subclass it adds a feature that is arguably even better than its 14th level ability that allows you to use a reaction to attack a creature.
Overall its not hard to see why Berzerker is a terribly designed subclass and is rightfully panned as one of the worst.
I like a nice debate, but this is a thread about 4 Elements Monk, on the Monk class Forum. Could we continue in that line, if there is anything else to say about it?
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Frenzied Rage isn't designed for every combat. Hell, Rage isn't designed for every combat. There are no less than six (I'm working from memory here, not bothering to look up the actual number) potential combat encounters just in Cragmaw Castle. A 3rd-level barbarian isn't going to waste their uses of Rage per long rest on the first half of the dungeon. And the party isn't going to stop and give them a long rest just because the "big guy" is running on empty. They're on the clock.
But when you absolutely have to kill something, not much else compares. Fighters and Way of the Zealot barbarians can get close, but none of them can truly match it. And that's not bothering with feats. You want to give PAM to the zelaot? Fine, but the berserker gets GWM. And they get to add +30 on their turn with a bigger weapon.
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But, as fun as this has been, we've gone horribly off-topic. This is about the Way of the Four Elements. Some of the arguments are similar. And while I don't want to say, "You just don't get it, man," I'm starting to think it might be true. Some of us just refuse to recognize the subclass and the design behind it for what it is; rather than what we wish it would be.
And if you want to change it for your game, then fine. But changing something you don't understand isn't going to make it work better because you lack the understanding to know what it lacks. And any such discussion probably belongs in a homebrew forum and not here.