I just think it's the worst subclass due to how underwhelming the best thing it can do is....
Mercy Monk is my pick for best monk because it's synergy with the the monk core is great and you get to do your monk stuff AND the subclass stuff because it's part of flurry of blows.
4E does this stuff that's ok but overall it's just like playing a 1/8 caster and it actually makes you do your monk stuff less due to costs.
You trade monk stuff for.... mediocre caster stuff.
I just think it's the worst subclass due to how underwhelming the best thing it can do is....
Mercy Monk is my pick for best monk because it's synergy with the the monk core is great and you get to do your monk stuff AND the subclass stuff because it's part of flurry of blows.
4E does this stuff that's ok but overall it's just like playing a 1/8 caster and it actually makes you do your monk stuff less due to costs.
You trade monk stuff for.... mediocre caster stuff.
Honestly, what is this obsession with 4E? Is it because the monk used a "ki focus" as an implement? Because "ki" wasn't a resource. Classes didn't operate on finite resources outside of which powers were at-will, encounter, or daily.
And, let's be perfectly clear, here, but the monk isn't trading anything away. The class's chassis is still there, and it's a mighty fine chassis. Having said that, there will be an opportunity cost with every possible action you take in the game. Options compete with one another all the bloody time. There are 10 different options for your character's basic Action in combat. And different features and spells can compete for your Action, Bonus Action, and Reaction. And a fighter's Action Surge is not just for using Attack a second time in the fight. If that fighter is also an Eldritch Knight, and they cast absorb elements or shield, they cannot also make an Opportunity Attack. If they're trying to hound a particular foe, now the foe can withdraw freely.
Following the Way of the Four Elements doesn't take anything away from the monk. Invoking an Elemental Discipline doesn't take anything away from the monk. If a player chooses to take and use these options, then it's safe to assume they have weighed the cost against the benefits. You don't have to agree with it, but it's not your character, either. If you don't like it, then fine. Walk away from this thread.
Because it's downright rude of you to be badmouthing this subclass for five pages now.
P.S.
Quick show of hands: how many people even noticed that the ki point cost for Elemental Disciplines is more or less the same as Sorcery Points? The odd duck out is Rush of the Gale Spirits because it's 2nd-level and only costs as much as a 1st-level spell. (Which probably means Eternal Mountain Defense should only cost 4 instead of 5, but then it's the cheapest of all the ones obtainable at that level.)
And, let's all be honest, the subclass needs to keep the cost more or less as-is. They can still effectively upcast to keep up with half-casters. Two short rests per long rest and they have just as many equivalent spell slots in ki points if they use their ki regularly. Actually, monks are marginally better off. They just have more flexibility in how to use their resource. Ki is, basically, metamagic for martials. Way of the Four Elements just also gets to use it for some real, scalable spellcasting.
Honestly, what is this obsession with 4E? Is it because the monk used a "ki focus" as an implement? Because "ki" wasn't a resource. Classes didn't operate on finite resources outside of which powers were at-will, encounter, or daily.
Pretty sure 4E is short for 4 elements, not 4th edition.
Following the Way of the Four Elements doesn't take anything away from the monk. Invoking an Elemental Discipline doesn't take anything away from the monk. If a player chooses to take and use these options, then it's safe to assume they have weighed the cost against the benefits. You don't have to agree with it, but it's not your character, either. If you don't like it, then fine. Walk away from this thread.
Because it's downright rude of you to be badmouthing this subclass for five pages now.
Why are you taking this so personally? Who exactly is the recipient of this apparent rudeness? Did you not read the OP? This thread was started by someone that thinks the 4 elements monk is the weakest monk subclass and wanted opinions. Jounichi, you know how you feel about people talking negatively about classes and subclasses. Why do you step into these things all the time? Just to rile yourself up?
Also, yeah, as Squiggit said, 4E stands for 4 elements monk. It's a confusing naming convention, gets me all the time.
Beyond that I'm genuinely confused how people could so adamantly fight against the idea that the 4E monk's Ki is overly taxed. It's quite obvious it is. Just look at how many monk subclasses get at least some new ability that doesn't cost ki. Simple as that.
Also, yes, I agree with the general sentiment of the OP. I don't feel like splitting the minutae between the bottom of the barrel monk subs, but it's definitely not an exciting subclass mechanically.
As I’ve read through this thread and keep reading stunning strike it reminds me of XP to level 3’s Fireball video just substitute Stunning Strike with Fireball.
Fireball is a bit crazy....its just a commonly resisted damage type so it somewhat balances out.
Stun is less resisted and is both a huge buff (advantage for everyone) and a huge debuff (No actions/movement for you!) so for me its easy to see why its the better choice most of the time.
There are very few effects in the game that produce this level of buff/debuff that also allow you do try up to 4 times a turn to get that effect to proc.
Its like having multiple chances to hit on a a save or suck spell while you still get to do damage...its such a powerful and unique ability that it in my opinion wholly defines the monk....likely to a problematic extent.
Now as I stated this is influenced heavily by my experience in play as both a monk player myself (Shadow , Kensei) and DM (Mercy , 4E , Open Hand , Sun Soul).
When I played a shadow monk I loved being able to have something to use my ki on that either complimented my party (Pass w/o Trace with Plate Pally) or could combo to good extent with the party (Silence as we fought spellcasters a lot as it was in Eberron). I did use ki on more than just Stunning Strike...but it was rare.
The monks I have DM'd for mostly used ki for flurry of blows/stun as well....while the other abilites saw some use it was firmly in the minority.
The common trend here was that majority of the time Stun was the better option unless there was a hard counter to it (immune enemy, flying enemy, etc....) Which in our experiences did not make up the majority of encounters.
Either one of us could set up scenarios that would heavily favor one playstyle or another (Dragon is a good way to heavily dis-favor stun as its a flying enemy with a high CON) but I am just being honest to my experiences and how I have seen monks run in my time playing.
Theoretically anything is possible and you could make it a point to use STUN as little as possible if you wan to focus on other things. To me that is a fair strategy as it is all to easy to just rely on Stun Spam as it is so effective. I would like to one day challenge myself to try to play a monk who does not use it very often as it might open up my experiences a bit more.
The problem is I need to be able to play as a player....stuck too much DMing here lately!
"its such a powerful and unique ability that it in my opinion wholly defines the monk....likely to a problematic extent."
It's always this sentiment that gets me. It seems to say "Monks are boring because all they do is this one thing", but the player is the one limiting themselves to only that one thing. Monks can do a lot of really cool things, but yeah if you always only pick one of them it is going to get old.
Play it for fun rather than what is always the most powerful. Monks can do so many cool things other martials can't -- don't get into the same cul-de-sac where pulling the biggest lever is the only thing you ever try.
This thread is five pages of people giving examples of good times to use Elemental Disciplines instead of Stunning Strike, and as one of the subclass's defenders it very much feels like the response is universally "yeah but Stunning Strike" anyways.
Monks don't always have to Stunning Strike. Barbarians don't always have to Rage. Wizards don't always have to Fireball.
"its such a powerful and unique ability that it in my opinion wholly defines the monk....likely to a problematic extent."
It's always this sentiment that gets me. It seems to say "Monks are boring because all they do is this one thing", but the player is the one limiting themselves to only that one thing. Monks can do a lot of really cool things, but yeah if you always only pick one of them it is going to get old.
Play it for fun rather than what is always the most powerful. Monks can do so many cool things other martials can't -- don't get into the same cul-de-sac where pulling the biggest lever is the only thing you ever try.
This thread is five pages of people giving examples of good times to use Elemental Disciplines instead of Stunning Strike, and as one of the subclass's defenders it very much feels like the response is universally "yeah but Stunning Strike" anyways.
Monks don't always have to Stunning Strike. Barbarians don't always have to Rage. Wizards don't always have to Fireball.
Actually barbs do need to rage as all of their subclass abilities generally relay on it....it is a core feature that procs almost ALL of their features. Without rage they have....reckless attack and additional movement.
The wizard one is not a fair comparison as its pure damage with little control/debuff/buff potential. Stun is literally all three....you do damage on the stike all while you are buffing your allies, debuffing the enemy, and locking them down to one position.
Its just hard to beat that kind of utility all in one....fireball is a poor comparison as it does not provide the other aspects like Stun does.
Monk is in a better state as it has a wide variety of uses it can do with Ki and they are all generally good....just stun is generally a lot better in most cases.
Not all cases and not all the time but a good majority it is the best thing to do.
I appreciate these cases when the disciplines are useful and helpful...but the bottom line is that it takes your precious ki to use them which fuels all of your core abilities.
I really do think if you simply gave the 4 elements a second resource pool like pact slots you would make it one of the best monk subclasses....or even if you let them use the disciplines a number of times per day equal to proficiency bonus before spending ki they would be hugely benefited. It would pull away the opportunity cost and let you feel better about using them.
They are already moving in this direction with the Dragonmonk UA and I think its a great direction to go. I would love to see 4 elements errata'd as part of a release to incorporate this change!
I think everyone agrees that "more of their core abilities" is something the Elemonk could stand to gain. It generally feels like the difference of opinions here is based on whether what they get is enough -- the proponents say yes, the opponents say no. Looking at it this way, they can easily use their base skills in tier 1 and 2 at least once a day (more like once a rest) and still have ki left over to Stunning Strike multiple times. That's not unusual among other subclasses, to have 2-3 uses of base skills per day. It may come at a separate resource cost, but that also gives flexibility -- one day they can choose not to use Elemental Disciplines and have more ki for FOB and SS. The next day it could be the opposite.
There are several easy fixes for the resource dependence to make them have more of the Elemental feel. At least half a dozen have been described in this thread: - Lower ki cost of EDs - Add a handful more ki when you choose this subclass - Add pact slots or a similar spellcasting trait - Offer more EDs at each level - Allow free usage of EDs a certain number of times per day - Give cantrips so they have unlimited use elemental abilities - Give alternate subclass abilities that are unique to the Elemonk
Again, it feels very much like proponents say "They are a viable if not great subclass, and it only takes a minor tweak -- accomplishable in many different ways -- to make them feel more powerful at the table". Full reworks aren't necessary the way they are for, say, the Berzerker IMO. If you have a player who wants to be an Elemonk, offer some kind of help to balance them out and it is an easy problem to solve.
That's my 2 cents: Elemonks are fine, not great, as is. They get a worse rap than they deserve, and with a single tweak they are probably a slightly-above-average class. With several minor tweaks they can feel very strong and thematic at the table.
Barbarians can't afford to spend their rages all day. They start with only two, get a third once they acquire their subclass, and a fourth from 6th-level on. If you're in a dungeon with random and scripted encounters, you're not raging for every fight. Those subclass features that rely on your rage won't always be active. And that's okay.
And adjusting the cost of Elemental Disciplines doesn't work without reshuffling some things. As written, everything that can be scaled upward does in accordance with a half-caster. If you adjust the costs down, say to 1 ki point per level of the spell, then you have to (A) adjust the maximum ki point expenditure down by 1 and (B) move Rush of the Gale Spirits to 6th-level.
And, if that's really what you want to do then fine. But then you're also messing with the very same math that's used for Sorcery Points. You don't have to like it, but there is symmetry between them. You cannot have a conversation about one without a conversation about the other. So, are Sorcery Points in a good place?
And I don't think this is the place to be having that conversation.
Barbarians can't afford to spend their rages all day. They start with only two, get a third once they acquire their subclass, and a fourth from 6th-level on. If you're in a dungeon with random and scripted encounters, you're not raging for every fight. Those subclass features that rely on your rage won't always be active. And that's okay.
And adjusting the cost of Elemental Disciplines doesn't work without reshuffling some things. As written, everything that can be scaled upward does in accordance with a half-caster. If you adjust the costs down, say to 1 ki point per level of the spell, then you have to (A) adjust the maximum ki point expenditure down by 1 and (B) move Rush of the Gale Spirits to 6th-level.
And, if that's really what you want to do then fine. But then you're also messing with the very same math that's used for Sorcery Points. You don't have to like it, but there is symmetry between them. You cannot have a conversation about one without a conversation about the other. So, are Sorcery Points in a good place?
And I don't think this is the place to be having that conversation.
I agree this probably is not the thread for comparing the two. My quick 2 cents is that I don't think you can directly compare Sorcery Points to ki points for the following reasons: 1) Sorcery Points are regained on a long rest, whereas ki points are regained on a short or long rest. 2) Although Sorcery points can be used to create spell slots, which is synonymous to how the four elements monk is casting spells, it is not the sole resource sorcerers have for casting their spells. They also have spell slots that can be used, so they can still use their spellcasting fully while reserving their points for their class and subclass features.
Both of these things ,along with the fact that a sorcerer is a full caster whereas the four elements monk is not, makes a direct cost comparison difficult. Is there similarity between them? Most definitely, but using the balance of one to say the other is balanced as well is something I do not thing can be done in a 1:1 fashion.
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I think everyone agrees that "more of their core abilities" is something the Elemonk could stand to gain. It generally feels like the difference of opinions here is based on whether what they get is enough -- the proponents say yes, the opponents say no. Looking at it this way, they can easily use their base skills in tier 1 and 2 at least once a day (more like once a rest) and still have ki left over to Stunning Strike multiple times. That's not unusual among other subclasses, to have 2-3 uses of base skills per day. It may come at a separate resource cost, but that also gives flexibility -- one day they can choose not to use Elemental Disciplines and have more ki for FOB and SS. The next day it could be the opposite.
There are several easy fixes for the resource dependence to make them have more of the Elemental feel. At least half a dozen have been described in this thread: - Lower ki cost of EDs - Add a handful more ki when you choose this subclass - Add pact slots or a similar spellcasting trait - Offer more EDs at each level - Allow free usage of EDs a certain number of times per day - Give cantrips so they have unlimited use elemental abilities - Give alternate subclass abilities that are unique to the Elemonk
Again, it feels very much like proponents say "They are a viable if not great subclass, and it only takes a minor tweak -- accomplishable in many different ways -- to make them feel more powerful at the table". Full reworks aren't necessary the way they are for, say, the Berzerker IMO. If you have a player who wants to be an Elemonk, offer some kind of help to balance them out and it is an easy problem to solve.
That's my 2 cents: Elemonks are fine, not great, as is. They get a worse rap than they deserve, and with a single tweak they are probably a slightly-above-average class. With several minor tweaks they can feel very strong and thematic at the table.
I agree with fine but not great....I think that is a fair overall assessment of the subclass. You make good points and likely those who have lower number of encoutners per day will see less value as they are typically getting less short rests but its pretty dependent on overall playstyle. I could see some campaigns with 4E monks as written doing better than their counterparts for sure.
Barbarians can't afford to spend their rages all day. They start with only two, get a third once they acquire their subclass, and a fourth from 6th-level on. If you're in a dungeon with random and scripted encounters, you're not raging for every fight. Those subclass features that rely on your rage won't always be active. And that's okay.
And adjusting the cost of Elemental Disciplines doesn't work without reshuffling some things. As written, everything that can be scaled upward does in accordance with a half-caster. If you adjust the costs down, say to 1 ki point per level of the spell, then you have to (A) adjust the maximum ki point expenditure down by 1 and (B) move Rush of the Gale Spirits to 6th-level.
And, if that's really what you want to do then fine. But then you're also messing with the very same math that's used for Sorcery Points. You don't have to like it, but there is symmetry between them. You cannot have a conversation about one without a conversation about the other. So, are Sorcery Points in a good place?
And I don't think this is the place to be having that conversation.
I agree this probably is not the thread for comparing the two. My quick 2 cents is that I don't think you can directly compare Sorcery Points to ki points for the following reasons: 1) Sorcery Points are regained on a long rest, whereas ki points are regained on a short or long rest. 2) Although Sorcery points can be used to create spell slots, which is synonymous to how the four elements monk is casting spells, it is not the sole resource sorcerers have for casting their spells. They also have spell slots that can be used, so they can still use their spellcasting fully while reserving their points for their class and subclass features.
Both of these things ,along with the fact that a sorcerer is a full caster whereas the four elements monk is not, makes a direct cost comparison difficult. Is there similarity between them? Most definitely, but using the balance of one to say the other is balanced as well is something I do not thing can be done in a 1:1 fashion.
Agreed....comparing SP to Ki is not a fair comparison....LR vs SR and you can make more as a BA by sacrificing a separate resource pool (Spell Slots) so its not comparable at all.
In fact if anything it does make the case that sorcerers are in a better place as they have two separate resources that power their core class (Slots and Sorcery Points).
4E monk would benefit from free castings of the abilities even if it was limited to a LR resource (Proficiency Bonus uses per day) and would still need to use ki to "Upcast" which is the spot that would make it a lot sweeter I think.
Following the Way of the Four Elements doesn't take anything away from the monk. Invoking an Elemental Discipline doesn't take anything away from the monk. If a player chooses to take and use these options, then it's safe to assume they have weighed the cost against the benefits. You don't have to agree with it, but it's not your character, either. If you don't like it, then fine. Walk away from this thread.
Because it's downright rude of you to be badmouthing this subclass for five pages now.
Why are you taking this so personally? Who exactly is the recipient of this apparent rudeness? Did you not read the OP? This thread was started by someone that thinks the 4 elements monk is the weakest monk subclass and wanted opinions. Jounichi, you know how you feel about people talking negatively about classes and subclasses. Why do you step into these things all the time? Just to rile yourself up?
Also, yeah, as Squiggit said, 4E stands for 4 elements monk. It's a confusing naming convention, gets me all the time.
Beyond that I'm genuinely confused how people could so adamantly fight against the idea that the 4E monk's Ki is overly taxed. It's quite obvious it is. Just look at how many monk subclasses get at least some new ability that doesn't cost ki. Simple as that.
Also, yes, I agree with the general sentiment of the OP. I don't feel like splitting the minutae between the bottom of the barrel monk subs, but it's definitely not an exciting subclass mechanically.
First off, calm down. No need to be hostile. But the reason why many people feel that 4E deserves a rewrite simply boils down to the fact that it can and often is less fun to play a character that is constantly being outclassed by others. By revising this subclass, it would prevent novice players from aiming for an AtLA-style monk and end up being the LVP of the party. Remember, in the end, having fun is what counts.
One is that, like other monks, 4E monks can stunning strike and FoB as much as they have Ki for. And use the other ED’s as necessary. But in this case it seems they don’t feel like a elemental monk if they forego their ED’s for stun/FoB.
So...
What if Elemental Attunement was free to use AND did not count against their ED’s known. And Fangs of the Fire Snake became free to use with reach and you could do fire, bludgeoning, thunder, or cold damage (for the 4 elements) and only the extra 1d10 cost the Ki. Make FotFS the ED you get at 3rd level as one of your two ED’s instead of Elemental Attunement. This gives you reach, you can still FoB/SS with it, like you can now (with appropriate Ki cost) and an elemental attack. If the free use is too much, then keep the 1Ki cost but allow you to choose the damage type.
I’m hesitant to introduce another pool to pull from and giving the 4E monk an actual elemental attack they can use regularly would keep in the theme throughout their career, if they kept that ED, and save the Ki for other ED’s
One is that, like other monks, 4E monks can stunning strike and FoB as much as they have Ki for. And use the other ED’s as necessary. But in this case it seems they don’t feel like a elemental monk if they forego their ED’s for stun/FoB.
So...
What if Elemental Attunement was free to use AND did not count against their ED’s known. And Fangs of the Fire Snake became free to use with reach and you could do fire, bludgeoning, thunder, or cold damage (for the 4 elements) and only the extra 1d10 cost the Ki. Make FotFS the ED you get at 3rd level as one of your two ED’s instead of Elemental Attunement. This gives you reach, you can still FoB/SS with it, like you can now (with appropriate Ki cost) and an elemental attack. If the free use is too much, then keep the 1Ki cost but allow you to choose the damage type.
I’m hesitant to introduce another pool to pull from and giving the 4E monk an actual elemental attack they can use regularly would keep in the theme throughout their career, if they kept that ED, and save the Ki for other ED’s
Maybe this would be too much, but a thought.
Being able to have free reach and a variable damage type, even without spending ki definitely sounds like it could be a stand alone subclass feature, although both for free might be powerful. I agree that you should need to spend ki for the extra damage. But I am also not sure.
On a somewhat similar note, I once played around with the idea of tying different elemental abilities to your use of Flurry of Blows (similar to the options presented to Open Hand). Some cost 1 extra ki, others gave a base bonus and could be improved with ki. There were four options for each of the four elements. Water gave you extended reach, Earth allowed you to replace one of your unarmed strikes with a Grapple, Fire gave extra damage, and Air allowed you to replace one of your unarmed strikes with a Shove.
One is that, like other monks, 4E monks can stunning strike and FoB as much as they have Ki for. And use the other ED’s as necessary. But in this case it seems they don’t feel like a elemental monk if they forego their ED’s for stun/FoB.
So...
What if Elemental Attunement was free to use AND did not count against their ED’s known. And Fangs of the Fire Snake became free to use with reach and you could do fire, bludgeoning, thunder, or cold damage (for the 4 elements) and only the extra 1d10 cost the Ki. Make FotFS the ED you get at 3rd level as one of your two ED’s instead of Elemental Attunement. This gives you reach, you can still FoB/SS with it, like you can now (with appropriate Ki cost) and an elemental attack. If the free use is too much, then keep the 1Ki cost but allow you to choose the damage type.
I’m hesitant to introduce another pool to pull from and giving the 4E monk an actual elemental attack they can use regularly would keep in the theme throughout their career, if they kept that ED, and save the Ki for other ED’s
Maybe this would be too much, but a thought.
I like this because it synergies better with their abilities and lets them be more "Masters of Elements" as they can hot swap elements. This mirrors the Dragon Monk features to an extent but I like it!
Barbarians can't afford to spend their rages all day. They start with only two, get a third once they acquire their subclass, and a fourth from 6th-level on. If you're in a dungeon with random and scripted encounters, you're not raging for every fight. Those subclass features that rely on your rage won't always be active. And that's okay.
And adjusting the cost of Elemental Disciplines doesn't work without reshuffling some things. As written, everything that can be scaled upward does in accordance with a half-caster. If you adjust the costs down, say to 1 ki point per level of the spell, then you have to (A) adjust the maximum ki point expenditure down by 1 and (B) move Rush of the Gale Spirits to 6th-level.
And, if that's really what you want to do then fine. But then you're also messing with the very same math that's used for Sorcery Points. You don't have to like it, but there is symmetry between them. You cannot have a conversation about one without a conversation about the other. So, are Sorcery Points in a good place?
And I don't think this is the place to be having that conversation.
I agree this probably is not the thread for comparing the two. My quick 2 cents is that I don't think you can directly compare Sorcery Points to ki points for the following reasons: 1) Sorcery Points are regained on a long rest, whereas ki points are regained on a short or long rest. 2) Although Sorcery points can be used to create spell slots, which is synonymous to how the four elements monk is casting spells, it is not the sole resource sorcerers have for casting their spells. They also have spell slots that can be used, so they can still use their spellcasting fully while reserving their points for their class and subclass features.
Both of these things ,along with the fact that a sorcerer is a full caster whereas the four elements monk is not, makes a direct cost comparison difficult. Is there similarity between them? Most definitely, but using the balance of one to say the other is balanced as well is something I do not thing can be done in a 1:1 fashion.
Agreed....comparing SP to Ki is not a fair comparison....LR vs SR and you can make more as a BA by sacrificing a separate resource pool (Spell Slots) so its not comparable at all.
In fact if anything it does make the case that sorcerers are in a better place as they have two separate resources that power their core class (Slots and Sorcery Points).
4E monk would benefit from free castings of the abilities even if it was limited to a LR resource (Proficiency Bonus uses per day) and would still need to use ki to "Upcast" which is the spot that would make it a lot sweeter I think.
Well, the cost is nearly identical for all of them. As I said before, most elemental spells are priced "correctly". Ride the Wind and Rush of the Gale Spirits should probably be 3 ki points each, and Eternal Mountain Stance should probably be 4 ki points. Is it a little disjointed? Sure. Is it more efficient to upcast the abilities when possible? Heck yes.
They could probably deal with more Elemental Disciplines. I am a little disappointed that subsequent books didn't add more as new spells were added to the game. But then they should also be learning more with each level. Or else learn distinct features at higher levels aside from their numerous Elemental Disciplines.
But here's the rub: they're not like anyone else and shouldn't be treated as such. I mean, do you really want a third 1/3-caster in the PHB? Way of the Shadow grants "wide power" in the form of a lot of utility; a not-insignificant amount of which is environment-dependent. Way of the Open Hand just makes the base monk a little more monkish. You get to do cool tactical stuff with Flurry of Blows, so you want to do it often. But when you don't, you can heal yourself for a not-insignificant amount. If you don't want to fight at all, then you're protected by sanctuary for a time. Then you get one really powerful attack for a small amount of ki. It's kind of all over the place.
I'm not going to say that the Way of the Four Elements couldn't use some fine-tuning. Nothing is perfect, and we shouldn't pretend anything is. But, much like Way of the Shadow, it grants "wide power" that opens up so many more options to a monk. Fangs of the Fire Snake is the only effective way for a monk to get [wprop]Reach[wprop] with their melee attacks, and it changes the damage type, to boot. Mist Stance gives them a scouting option no one else might have thought of. If they want to cast Ride the Wind and yank enemies into the air with Water Whip only to drop them for additional damage, I say go for it. That might take two turns to start paying off and consume most or all of their ki points, but it's sure sounds cool. And if they emphasize Wisdom over Dexterity, to bolster their saving throw DC, then Stunning Strike is more likely to work when they do land a melee attack.
Way of Shadow doesn't really care about Wisdom. Way of the Open Hand does at 17th-level, sort of. It's a little weird in that a successful save against Quivering Palm could invoke Instant Death when a failed saving throw cannot. And it does take two turns to trigger, so it's not exactly quick.
Way of the Four Elements is the only subclass in the PHB that actually gives the monk a reason to seriously invest in Wisdom from the start. That alone fills a necessary niche. We can quibble all we want about whether or not we think it lives up to the fantasy, but we also all probably have different ideas as to what that fantasy is. I prefer to meet it on its own terms. And having seen it in action, I wasn't disappointed. And neither was the player.
One is that, like other monks, 4E monks can stunning strike and FoB as much as they have Ki for. And use the other ED’s as necessary. But in this case it seems they don’t feel like a elemental monk if they forego their ED’s for stun/FoB.
So...
What if Elemental Attunement was free to use AND did not count against their ED’s known. And Fangs of the Fire Snake became free to use with reach and you could do fire, bludgeoning, thunder, or cold damage (for the 4 elements) and only the extra 1d10 cost the Ki. Make FotFS the ED you get at 3rd level as one of your two ED’s instead of Elemental Attunement. This gives you reach, you can still FoB/SS with it, like you can now (with appropriate Ki cost) and an elemental attack. If the free use is too much, then keep the 1Ki cost but allow you to choose the damage type.
I’m hesitant to introduce another pool to pull from and giving the 4E monk an actual elemental attack they can use regularly would keep in the theme throughout their career, if they kept that ED, and save the Ki for other ED’s
Maybe this would be too much, but a thought.
Being able to have free reach and a variable damage type, even without spending ki definitely sounds like it could be a stand alone subclass feature, although both for free might be powerful. I agree that you should need to spend ki for the extra damage. But I am also not sure.
On a somewhat similar note, I once played around with the idea of tying different elemental abilities to your use of Flurry of Blows (similar to the options presented to Open Hand). Some cost 1 extra ki, others gave a base bonus and could be improved with ki. There were four options for each of the four elements. Water gave you extended reach, Earth allowed you to replace one of your unarmed strikes with a Grapple, Fire gave extra damage, and Air allowed you to replace one of your unarmed strikes with a Shove.
Both of these sound like cool solutions! Alternatively, I have thought about how to connect the three core Martial Arts features to the elements.
Some of the original thoughts I had: Fire: When you activate Flurry of Blows, your reach is increased by 5 feet until the end of the turn and the Unarmed Strikes deal fire damage. Air: When you activate Step of the Wind, you may use both the Disengage and Dash actions using the same bonus action. Earth: When you activate Patient Defense, you cannot be moved or knocked prone against your will. Water [the hardest of the four]: When you activate Flurry of Blows, you can replace any attacks as part of that bonus action with Grapple or Shove attacks.
My initial thought on how to activate these would read something like "As an action, you can spend 2 ki and take one of these four Elemental Stances for the next minute. On the turn you activate this ability, you can use Flurry of Blows as though you had taken the Attack action." Perhaps removing the ki cost of the related Martial Arts feature for that minute would also be justified for balance.
Now that we have Astral Monk I think they can safely move on from a WIS focused role and shift to a Gish build they were meant to be.
I full on agree that more disciplines would be nice....I too am surprised they haven't done more subclass additions over the books.... If they had a few more that acted as full on debuffs/buffs with less damage I think that might be a GREAT addition.
I think giving them Pact Slots is the fix I prefer overall as it makes them unique amongst official 1/3rd casters and would allow for natural progression of damage without having to worry about ki involvement.
Monk Level
CANTRIPS
SPELLS
SPELL
SLOT
KNOWN
KNOWN
SLOTS
LEVEL
3rd
2
2
1
1st
4th
2
2
1
1st
5th
2
3
1
1st
6th
2
3
2
1st
7th
2
4
2
2nd
8th
2
4
2
2nd
9th
2
5
2
2nd
10th
3
5
2
2nd
11th
3
6
2
2nd
12th
3
6
2
2nd
13th
3
7
2
3rd
14th
3
7
2
3rd
15th
3
8
2
3rd
16th
3
8
2
3rd
17th
3
9
2
3rd
18th
3
9
2
3rd
19th
3
10
2
4th
20th
3
11
2
4th
It would be fairly simple and lowering the spell power level helps with the fact they reset on a short rest.
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I just think it's the worst subclass due to how underwhelming the best thing it can do is....
Mercy Monk is my pick for best monk because it's synergy with the the monk core is great and you get to do your monk stuff AND the subclass stuff because it's part of flurry of blows.
4E does this stuff that's ok but overall it's just like playing a 1/8 caster and it actually makes you do your monk stuff less due to costs.
You trade monk stuff for.... mediocre caster stuff.
Honestly, what is this obsession with 4E? Is it because the monk used a "ki focus" as an implement? Because "ki" wasn't a resource. Classes didn't operate on finite resources outside of which powers were at-will, encounter, or daily.
And, let's be perfectly clear, here, but the monk isn't trading anything away. The class's chassis is still there, and it's a mighty fine chassis. Having said that, there will be an opportunity cost with every possible action you take in the game. Options compete with one another all the bloody time. There are 10 different options for your character's basic Action in combat. And different features and spells can compete for your Action, Bonus Action, and Reaction. And a fighter's Action Surge is not just for using Attack a second time in the fight. If that fighter is also an Eldritch Knight, and they cast absorb elements or shield, they cannot also make an Opportunity Attack. If they're trying to hound a particular foe, now the foe can withdraw freely.
Following the Way of the Four Elements doesn't take anything away from the monk. Invoking an Elemental Discipline doesn't take anything away from the monk. If a player chooses to take and use these options, then it's safe to assume they have weighed the cost against the benefits. You don't have to agree with it, but it's not your character, either. If you don't like it, then fine. Walk away from this thread.
Because it's downright rude of you to be badmouthing this subclass for five pages now.
P.S.
Quick show of hands: how many people even noticed that the ki point cost for Elemental Disciplines is more or less the same as Sorcery Points? The odd duck out is Rush of the Gale Spirits because it's 2nd-level and only costs as much as a 1st-level spell. (Which probably means Eternal Mountain Defense should only cost 4 instead of 5, but then it's the cheapest of all the ones obtainable at that level.)
And, let's all be honest, the subclass needs to keep the cost more or less as-is. They can still effectively upcast to keep up with half-casters. Two short rests per long rest and they have just as many equivalent spell slots in ki points if they use their ki regularly. Actually, monks are marginally better off. They just have more flexibility in how to use their resource. Ki is, basically, metamagic for martials. Way of the Four Elements just also gets to use it for some real, scalable spellcasting.
Pretty sure 4E is short for 4 elements, not 4th edition.
Why are you taking this so personally? Who exactly is the recipient of this apparent rudeness? Did you not read the OP? This thread was started by someone that thinks the 4 elements monk is the weakest monk subclass and wanted opinions. Jounichi, you know how you feel about people talking negatively about classes and subclasses. Why do you step into these things all the time? Just to rile yourself up?
Also, yeah, as Squiggit said, 4E stands for 4 elements monk. It's a confusing naming convention, gets me all the time.
Beyond that I'm genuinely confused how people could so adamantly fight against the idea that the 4E monk's Ki is overly taxed. It's quite obvious it is. Just look at how many monk subclasses get at least some new ability that doesn't cost ki. Simple as that.
Also, yes, I agree with the general sentiment of the OP. I don't feel like splitting the minutae between the bottom of the barrel monk subs, but it's definitely not an exciting subclass mechanically.
As I’ve read through this thread and keep reading stunning strike it reminds me of XP to level 3’s Fireball video just substitute Stunning Strike with Fireball.
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Fireball is a bit crazy....its just a commonly resisted damage type so it somewhat balances out.
Stun is less resisted and is both a huge buff (advantage for everyone) and a huge debuff (No actions/movement for you!) so for me its easy to see why its the better choice most of the time.
There are very few effects in the game that produce this level of buff/debuff that also allow you do try up to 4 times a turn to get that effect to proc.
Its like having multiple chances to hit on a a save or suck spell while you still get to do damage...its such a powerful and unique ability that it in my opinion wholly defines the monk....likely to a problematic extent.
Now as I stated this is influenced heavily by my experience in play as both a monk player myself (Shadow , Kensei) and DM (Mercy , 4E , Open Hand , Sun Soul).
When I played a shadow monk I loved being able to have something to use my ki on that either complimented my party (Pass w/o Trace with Plate Pally) or could combo to good extent with the party (Silence as we fought spellcasters a lot as it was in Eberron). I did use ki on more than just Stunning Strike...but it was rare.
The monks I have DM'd for mostly used ki for flurry of blows/stun as well....while the other abilites saw some use it was firmly in the minority.
The common trend here was that majority of the time Stun was the better option unless there was a hard counter to it (immune enemy, flying enemy, etc....) Which in our experiences did not make up the majority of encounters.
Either one of us could set up scenarios that would heavily favor one playstyle or another (Dragon is a good way to heavily dis-favor stun as its a flying enemy with a high CON) but I am just being honest to my experiences and how I have seen monks run in my time playing.
Theoretically anything is possible and you could make it a point to use STUN as little as possible if you wan to focus on other things. To me that is a fair strategy as it is all to easy to just rely on Stun Spam as it is so effective. I would like to one day challenge myself to try to play a monk who does not use it very often as it might open up my experiences a bit more.
The problem is I need to be able to play as a player....stuck too much DMing here lately!
"its such a powerful and unique ability that it in my opinion wholly defines the monk....likely to a problematic extent."
It's always this sentiment that gets me. It seems to say "Monks are boring because all they do is this one thing", but the player is the one limiting themselves to only that one thing. Monks can do a lot of really cool things, but yeah if you always only pick one of them it is going to get old.
Play it for fun rather than what is always the most powerful. Monks can do so many cool things other martials can't -- don't get into the same cul-de-sac where pulling the biggest lever is the only thing you ever try.
This thread is five pages of people giving examples of good times to use Elemental Disciplines instead of Stunning Strike, and as one of the subclass's defenders it very much feels like the response is universally "yeah but Stunning Strike" anyways.
Monks don't always have to Stunning Strike. Barbarians don't always have to Rage. Wizards don't always have to Fireball.
Actually barbs do need to rage as all of their subclass abilities generally relay on it....it is a core feature that procs almost ALL of their features. Without rage they have....reckless attack and additional movement.
The wizard one is not a fair comparison as its pure damage with little control/debuff/buff potential. Stun is literally all three....you do damage on the stike all while you are buffing your allies, debuffing the enemy, and locking them down to one position.
Its just hard to beat that kind of utility all in one....fireball is a poor comparison as it does not provide the other aspects like Stun does.
Monk is in a better state as it has a wide variety of uses it can do with Ki and they are all generally good....just stun is generally a lot better in most cases.
Not all cases and not all the time but a good majority it is the best thing to do.
I appreciate these cases when the disciplines are useful and helpful...but the bottom line is that it takes your precious ki to use them which fuels all of your core abilities.
I really do think if you simply gave the 4 elements a second resource pool like pact slots you would make it one of the best monk subclasses....or even if you let them use the disciplines a number of times per day equal to proficiency bonus before spending ki they would be hugely benefited. It would pull away the opportunity cost and let you feel better about using them.
They are already moving in this direction with the Dragonmonk UA and I think its a great direction to go. I would love to see 4 elements errata'd as part of a release to incorporate this change!
I think everyone agrees that "more of their core abilities" is something the Elemonk could stand to gain. It generally feels like the difference of opinions here is based on whether what they get is enough -- the proponents say yes, the opponents say no. Looking at it this way, they can easily use their base skills in tier 1 and 2 at least once a day (more like once a rest) and still have ki left over to Stunning Strike multiple times. That's not unusual among other subclasses, to have 2-3 uses of base skills per day. It may come at a separate resource cost, but that also gives flexibility -- one day they can choose not to use Elemental Disciplines and have more ki for FOB and SS. The next day it could be the opposite.
There are several easy fixes for the resource dependence to make them have more of the Elemental feel. At least half a dozen have been described in this thread:
- Lower ki cost of EDs
- Add a handful more ki when you choose this subclass
- Add pact slots or a similar spellcasting trait
- Offer more EDs at each level
- Allow free usage of EDs a certain number of times per day
- Give cantrips so they have unlimited use elemental abilities
- Give alternate subclass abilities that are unique to the Elemonk
Again, it feels very much like proponents say "They are a viable if not great subclass, and it only takes a minor tweak -- accomplishable in many different ways -- to make them feel more powerful at the table". Full reworks aren't necessary the way they are for, say, the Berzerker IMO. If you have a player who wants to be an Elemonk, offer some kind of help to balance them out and it is an easy problem to solve.
That's my 2 cents: Elemonks are fine, not great, as is. They get a worse rap than they deserve, and with a single tweak they are probably a slightly-above-average class. With several minor tweaks they can feel very strong and thematic at the table.
Barbarians can't afford to spend their rages all day. They start with only two, get a third once they acquire their subclass, and a fourth from 6th-level on. If you're in a dungeon with random and scripted encounters, you're not raging for every fight. Those subclass features that rely on your rage won't always be active. And that's okay.
And adjusting the cost of Elemental Disciplines doesn't work without reshuffling some things. As written, everything that can be scaled upward does in accordance with a half-caster. If you adjust the costs down, say to 1 ki point per level of the spell, then you have to (A) adjust the maximum ki point expenditure down by 1 and (B) move Rush of the Gale Spirits to 6th-level.
And, if that's really what you want to do then fine. But then you're also messing with the very same math that's used for Sorcery Points. You don't have to like it, but there is symmetry between them. You cannot have a conversation about one without a conversation about the other. So, are Sorcery Points in a good place?
And I don't think this is the place to be having that conversation.
I agree this probably is not the thread for comparing the two. My quick 2 cents is that I don't think you can directly compare Sorcery Points to ki points for the following reasons: 1) Sorcery Points are regained on a long rest, whereas ki points are regained on a short or long rest. 2) Although Sorcery points can be used to create spell slots, which is synonymous to how the four elements monk is casting spells, it is not the sole resource sorcerers have for casting their spells. They also have spell slots that can be used, so they can still use their spellcasting fully while reserving their points for their class and subclass features.
Both of these things ,along with the fact that a sorcerer is a full caster whereas the four elements monk is not, makes a direct cost comparison difficult. Is there similarity between them? Most definitely, but using the balance of one to say the other is balanced as well is something I do not thing can be done in a 1:1 fashion.
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I agree with fine but not great....I think that is a fair overall assessment of the subclass. You make good points and likely those who have lower number of encoutners per day will see less value as they are typically getting less short rests but its pretty dependent on overall playstyle. I could see some campaigns with 4E monks as written doing better than their counterparts for sure.
Agreed....comparing SP to Ki is not a fair comparison....LR vs SR and you can make more as a BA by sacrificing a separate resource pool (Spell Slots) so its not comparable at all.
In fact if anything it does make the case that sorcerers are in a better place as they have two separate resources that power their core class (Slots and Sorcery Points).
4E monk would benefit from free castings of the abilities even if it was limited to a LR resource (Proficiency Bonus uses per day) and would still need to use ki to "Upcast" which is the spot that would make it a lot sweeter I think.
First off, calm down. No need to be hostile. But the reason why many people feel that 4E deserves a rewrite simply boils down to the fact that it can and often is less fun to play a character that is constantly being outclassed by others. By revising this subclass, it would prevent novice players from aiming for an AtLA-style monk and end up being the LVP of the party. Remember, in the end, having fun is what counts.
Couple things I’ve been thinking.
One is that, like other monks, 4E monks can stunning strike and FoB as much as they have Ki for. And use the other ED’s as necessary. But in this case it seems they don’t feel like a elemental monk if they forego their ED’s for stun/FoB.
So...
What if Elemental Attunement was free to use AND did not count against their ED’s known. And Fangs of the Fire Snake became free to use with reach and you could do fire, bludgeoning, thunder, or cold damage (for the 4 elements) and only the extra 1d10 cost the Ki. Make FotFS the ED you get at 3rd level as one of your two ED’s instead of Elemental Attunement. This gives you reach, you can still FoB/SS with it, like you can now (with appropriate Ki cost) and an elemental attack. If the free use is too much, then keep the 1Ki cost but allow you to choose the damage type.
I’m hesitant to introduce another pool to pull from and giving the 4E monk an actual elemental attack they can use regularly would keep in the theme throughout their career, if they kept that ED, and save the Ki for other ED’s
Maybe this would be too much, but a thought.
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Being able to have free reach and a variable damage type, even without spending ki definitely sounds like it could be a stand alone subclass feature, although both for free might be powerful. I agree that you should need to spend ki for the extra damage. But I am also not sure.
On a somewhat similar note, I once played around with the idea of tying different elemental abilities to your use of Flurry of Blows (similar to the options presented to Open Hand). Some cost 1 extra ki, others gave a base bonus and could be improved with ki. There were four options for each of the four elements. Water gave you extended reach, Earth allowed you to replace one of your unarmed strikes with a Grapple, Fire gave extra damage, and Air allowed you to replace one of your unarmed strikes with a Shove.
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I like this because it synergies better with their abilities and lets them be more "Masters of Elements" as they can hot swap elements. This mirrors the Dragon Monk features to an extent but I like it!
Well, the cost is nearly identical for all of them. As I said before, most elemental spells are priced "correctly". Ride the Wind and Rush of the Gale Spirits should probably be 3 ki points each, and Eternal Mountain Stance should probably be 4 ki points. Is it a little disjointed? Sure. Is it more efficient to upcast the abilities when possible? Heck yes.
They could probably deal with more Elemental Disciplines. I am a little disappointed that subsequent books didn't add more as new spells were added to the game. But then they should also be learning more with each level. Or else learn distinct features at higher levels aside from their numerous Elemental Disciplines.
But here's the rub: they're not like anyone else and shouldn't be treated as such. I mean, do you really want a third 1/3-caster in the PHB? Way of the Shadow grants "wide power" in the form of a lot of utility; a not-insignificant amount of which is environment-dependent. Way of the Open Hand just makes the base monk a little more monkish. You get to do cool tactical stuff with Flurry of Blows, so you want to do it often. But when you don't, you can heal yourself for a not-insignificant amount. If you don't want to fight at all, then you're protected by sanctuary for a time. Then you get one really powerful attack for a small amount of ki. It's kind of all over the place.
I'm not going to say that the Way of the Four Elements couldn't use some fine-tuning. Nothing is perfect, and we shouldn't pretend anything is. But, much like Way of the Shadow, it grants "wide power" that opens up so many more options to a monk. Fangs of the Fire Snake is the only effective way for a monk to get [wprop]Reach[wprop] with their melee attacks, and it changes the damage type, to boot. Mist Stance gives them a scouting option no one else might have thought of. If they want to cast Ride the Wind and yank enemies into the air with Water Whip only to drop them for additional damage, I say go for it. That might take two turns to start paying off and consume most or all of their ki points, but it's sure sounds cool. And if they emphasize Wisdom over Dexterity, to bolster their saving throw DC, then Stunning Strike is more likely to work when they do land a melee attack.
Way of Shadow doesn't really care about Wisdom. Way of the Open Hand does at 17th-level, sort of. It's a little weird in that a successful save against Quivering Palm could invoke Instant Death when a failed saving throw cannot. And it does take two turns to trigger, so it's not exactly quick.
Way of the Four Elements is the only subclass in the PHB that actually gives the monk a reason to seriously invest in Wisdom from the start. That alone fills a necessary niche. We can quibble all we want about whether or not we think it lives up to the fantasy, but we also all probably have different ideas as to what that fantasy is. I prefer to meet it on its own terms. And having seen it in action, I wasn't disappointed. And neither was the player.
Both of these sound like cool solutions! Alternatively, I have thought about how to connect the three core Martial Arts features to the elements.
Some of the original thoughts I had:
Fire: When you activate Flurry of Blows, your reach is increased by 5 feet until the end of the turn and the Unarmed Strikes deal fire damage.
Air: When you activate Step of the Wind, you may use both the Disengage and Dash actions using the same bonus action.
Earth: When you activate Patient Defense, you cannot be moved or knocked prone against your will.
Water [the hardest of the four]: When you activate Flurry of Blows, you can replace any attacks as part of that bonus action with Grapple or Shove attacks.
My initial thought on how to activate these would read something like "As an action, you can spend 2 ki and take one of these four Elemental Stances for the next minute. On the turn you activate this ability, you can use Flurry of Blows as though you had taken the Attack action." Perhaps removing the ki cost of the related Martial Arts feature for that minute would also be justified for balance.
Now that we have Astral Monk I think they can safely move on from a WIS focused role and shift to a Gish build they were meant to be.
I full on agree that more disciplines would be nice....I too am surprised they haven't done more subclass additions over the books.... If they had a few more that acted as full on debuffs/buffs with less damage I think that might be a GREAT addition.
I think giving them Pact Slots is the fix I prefer overall as it makes them unique amongst official 1/3rd casters and would allow for natural progression of damage without having to worry about ki involvement.
It would be fairly simple and lowering the spell power level helps with the fact they reset on a short rest.