I found the two levels with the weakest features (In my opinion). Namely, the wall/water running ability, and knowing all languages.
Running up walls and across water is really cool, and is really fun to use. It’s a little less effective than expected because you can’t use it to cross lakes or anything, though it’s still very useful. I picked it because all the other levels even close to low-level were either ASIs/Subclass features, or had two features at that level already. You could definitely pick 10th level for this instead, but I think wall running is slightly weaker than full poison immunity + 5 extra movement, and I was trying to give Step of the Wind as early as I reasonably could.
Tongue of the Sun and Moon letting you speak all languages isn’t super useful, especially with how late it comes and that monks don’t get any other social features except from some subclasses.
Step of the Wind is less powerful that Patient Defense (there’s a reason why Rogues and Goblin PCs can dash but not dodge), so I put that one first. Monks already have so many features, it was hard to find an empty level (especially factoring in the optional bonus class features).
I don’t think monks need a buff at all, but if I did, it would either be giving them a third skill or granting free step of the wind at level 13.
A 3rd skill would be huge. Most people forget that Monks are fairly skill starved. It's masked by the focus on Dexterity and Wisdom as their needed Attributes. But they have a hard time really excelling and sometimes even contributing skill wise to a party without really going out of your way to know what the party can do and choosing around that to the best of your ability, including what Backgrounds you take, and backgrounds in general are not the kindest to the monk when it comes to skills.
I think Step of the Wind should cost a Ki point but be better than it is. Astral Self monks are a step in the right direction, but since Step of the Wind is about spending Ki on mobility, and Monks are intended to be bad at strength, let the ki point expenditure help with that. Something like including in Step of the Wind, "Until the beginning of your next turn, you may roll Dexterity (Acrobatics) instead whenever you are called upon to roll Strength (Athletics)."
I found the two levels with the weakest features (In my opinion). Namely, the wall/water running ability, and knowing all languages.
Running up walls and across water is really cool, and is really fun to use. It’s a little less effective than expected because you can’t use it to cross lakes or anything, though it’s still very useful. I picked it because all the other levels even close to low-level were either ASIs/Subclass features, or had two features at that level already. You could definitely pick 10th level for this instead, but I think wall running is slightly weaker than full poison immunity + 5 extra movement, and I was trying to give Step of the Wind as early as I reasonably could.
Tongue of the Sun and Moon letting you speak all languages isn’t super useful, especially with how late it comes and that monks don’t get any other social features except from some subclasses.
Step of the Wind is less powerful that Patient Defense (there’s a reason why Rogues and Goblin PCs can dash but not dodge), so I put that one first. Monks already have so many features, it was hard to find an empty level (especially factoring in the optional bonus class features).
I don’t think monks need a buff at all, but if I did, it would either be giving them a third skill or granting free step of the wind at level 13.
A 3rd skill would be huge. Most people forget that Monks are fairly skill starved. It's masked by the focus on Dexterity and Wisdom as their needed Attributes. But they have a hard time really excelling and sometimes even contributing skill wise to a party without really going out of your way to know what the party can do and choosing around that to the best of your ability, including what Backgrounds you take, and backgrounds in general are not the kindest to the monk when it comes to skills.
This is a fair point. On the other hand, since Monks are so dependent on having good stats I think it's fair to say that it's not very common for people to play them if they don't roll well for stats which means that they are usually kind of good even without extra skills. But as you say, a third skill would be huge for monks and they really don't *need* it.
I think Step of the Wind should cost a Ki point but be better than it is. Astral Self monks are a step in the right direction, but since Step of the Wind is about spending Ki on mobility, and Monks are intended to be bad at strength, let the ki point expenditure help with that. Something like including in Step of the Wind, "Until the beginning of your next turn, you may roll Dexterity (Acrobatics) instead whenever you are called upon to roll Strength (Athletics)."
Monks aren't intended to be bad at strength. It's just that due to how 5E works strength is a common dump stat for many classes.
I think Step of the Wind should cost a Ki point but be better than it is. Astral Self monks are a step in the right direction, but since Step of the Wind is about spending Ki on mobility, and Monks are intended to be bad at strength, let the ki point expenditure help with that. Something like including in Step of the Wind, "Until the beginning of your next turn, you may roll Dexterity (Acrobatics) instead whenever you are called upon to roll Strength (Athletics)."
Monks aren't intended to be bad at strength. It's just that due to how 5E works strength is a common dump stat for many classes.
Like Lost Says. The dumping strength is pretty much entirely a Player choice. Even with point buy or STandard Array this does not actually have to be the case. But they are going to sacrifice somewhere. Also. Many Backgrounds actually give proficiency in Athletics which actually puts a fair skill in athletics even without much in strength but for those with even an ok strength end up doing pretty well in Athletics. It's one of the factors where backgrounds aren't necessarily the nicest to Monks but because of the way things line up they tend to have ok numbers that hides the fact that they aren't really great when it comes to skills. But this one happens be one of the rare ones that tends to be because of proficiency rather than abilities.
I found the two levels with the weakest features (In my opinion). Namely, the wall/water running ability, and knowing all languages.
Running up walls and across water is really cool, and is really fun to use. It’s a little less effective than expected because you can’t use it to cross lakes or anything, though it’s still very useful. I picked it because all the other levels even close to low-level were either ASIs/Subclass features, or had two features at that level already. You could definitely pick 10th level for this instead, but I think wall running is slightly weaker than full poison immunity + 5 extra movement, and I was trying to give Step of the Wind as early as I reasonably could.
Tongue of the Sun and Moon letting you speak all languages isn’t super useful, especially with how late it comes and that monks don’t get any other social features except from some subclasses.
Step of the Wind is less powerful that Patient Defense (there’s a reason why Rogues and Goblin PCs can dash but not dodge), so I put that one first. Monks already have so many features, it was hard to find an empty level (especially factoring in the optional bonus class features).
I don’t think monks need a buff at all, but if I did, it would either be giving them a third skill or granting free step of the wind at level 13.
A 3rd skill would be huge. Most people forget that Monks are fairly skill starved. It's masked by the focus on Dexterity and Wisdom as their needed Attributes. But they have a hard time really excelling and sometimes even contributing skill wise to a party without really going out of your way to know what the party can do and choosing around that to the best of your ability, including what Backgrounds you take, and backgrounds in general are not the kindest to the monk when it comes to skills.
This is a fair point. On the other hand, since Monks are so dependent on having good stats I think it's fair to say that it's not very common for people to play them if they don't roll well for stats which means that they are usually kind of good even without extra skills. But as you say, a third skill would be huge for monks and they really don't *need* it.
Yeah, and having an extra skill would help a lot for making Tongue of Sun and Moon more useful. Most monks want to have Stealth, Insight, Perception, and either Acrobatics or Slight of Hand, meaning there is no room for a social skill. By having the option to at least have proficiency without sacrificing a more important skill, monks can be a more Insight and understanding-focused social user, while allowing the subclasses like Astral Self and Ascendant Dragon to use their Charisma skill improvements with something more than a +1 bonus due to MADness not letting them invest in Cha very much.
I found the two levels with the weakest features (In my opinion). Namely, the wall/water running ability, and knowing all languages.
Running up walls and across water is really cool, and is really fun to use. It’s a little less effective than expected because you can’t use it to cross lakes or anything, though it’s still very useful. I picked it because all the other levels even close to low-level were either ASIs/Subclass features, or had two features at that level already. You could definitely pick 10th level for this instead, but I think wall running is slightly weaker than full poison immunity + 5 extra movement, and I was trying to give Step of the Wind as early as I reasonably could.
Tongue of the Sun and Moon letting you speak all languages isn’t super useful, especially with how late it comes and that monks don’t get any other social features except from some subclasses.
Step of the Wind is less powerful that Patient Defense (there’s a reason why Rogues and Goblin PCs can dash but not dodge), so I put that one first. Monks already have so many features, it was hard to find an empty level (especially factoring in the optional bonus class features).
I don’t think monks need a buff at all, but if I did, it would either be giving them a third skill or granting free step of the wind at level 13.
A 3rd skill would be huge. Most people forget that Monks are fairly skill starved. It's masked by the focus on Dexterity and Wisdom as their needed Attributes. But they have a hard time really excelling and sometimes even contributing skill wise to a party without really going out of your way to know what the party can do and choosing around that to the best of your ability, including what Backgrounds you take, and backgrounds in general are not the kindest to the monk when it comes to skills.
This is a fair point. On the other hand, since Monks are so dependent on having good stats I think it's fair to say that it's not very common for people to play them if they don't roll well for stats which means that they are usually kind of good even without extra skills. But as you say, a third skill would be huge for monks and they really don't *need* it.
Yeah, and having an extra skill would help a lot for making Tongue of Sun and Moon more useful. Most monks want to have Stealth, Insight, Perception, and either Acrobatics or Slight of Hand, meaning there is no room for a social skill. By having the option to at least have proficiency without sacrificing a more important skill, monks can be a more Insight and understanding-focused social user, while allowing the subclasses like Astral Self and Ascendant Dragon to use their Charisma skill improvements with something more than a +1 bonus due to MADness not letting them invest in Cha very much.
Insight is a social skill. It's just not used when your character does the talking. You're reading someone else; sizing them up. Any information gathered from it can always be, at a later time, relayed to someone else or acted upon.
One character doesn't have to do everything. Working together, relying on different people's strengths, is preferable. It helps cut down on the MADness people impose on themselves.
I found the two levels with the weakest features (In my opinion). Namely, the wall/water running ability, and knowing all languages.
Running up walls and across water is really cool, and is really fun to use. It’s a little less effective than expected because you can’t use it to cross lakes or anything, though it’s still very useful. I picked it because all the other levels even close to low-level were either ASIs/Subclass features, or had two features at that level already. You could definitely pick 10th level for this instead, but I think wall running is slightly weaker than full poison immunity + 5 extra movement, and I was trying to give Step of the Wind as early as I reasonably could.
Tongue of the Sun and Moon letting you speak all languages isn’t super useful, especially with how late it comes and that monks don’t get any other social features except from some subclasses.
Step of the Wind is less powerful that Patient Defense (there’s a reason why Rogues and Goblin PCs can dash but not dodge), so I put that one first. Monks already have so many features, it was hard to find an empty level (especially factoring in the optional bonus class features).
I don’t think monks need a buff at all, but if I did, it would either be giving them a third skill or granting free step of the wind at level 13.
A 3rd skill would be huge. Most people forget that Monks are fairly skill starved. It's masked by the focus on Dexterity and Wisdom as their needed Attributes. But they have a hard time really excelling and sometimes even contributing skill wise to a party without really going out of your way to know what the party can do and choosing around that to the best of your ability, including what Backgrounds you take, and backgrounds in general are not the kindest to the monk when it comes to skills.
This is a fair point. On the other hand, since Monks are so dependent on having good stats I think it's fair to say that it's not very common for people to play them if they don't roll well for stats which means that they are usually kind of good even without extra skills. But as you say, a third skill would be huge for monks and they really don't *need* it.
Yeah, and having an extra skill would help a lot for making Tongue of Sun and Moon more useful. Most monks want to have Stealth, Insight, Perception, and either Acrobatics or Slight of Hand, meaning there is no room for a social skill. By having the option to at least have proficiency without sacrificing a more important skill, monks can be a more Insight and understanding-focused social user, while allowing the subclasses like Astral Self and Ascendant Dragon to use their Charisma skill improvements with something more than a +1 bonus due to MADness not letting them invest in Cha very much.
Insight is a social skill. It's just not used when your character does the talking. You're reading someone else; sizing them up. Any information gathered from it can always be, at a later time, relayed to someone else or acted upon.
One character doesn't have to do everything. Working together, relying on different people's strengths, is preferable. It helps cut down on the MADness people impose on themselves.
Yeah, Insight is a skill Monks are good at, and I mentioned it in my answer. When I said Social skill, I should have said Charisma skill. In my personal experience, you want to have both Insight and at least one of Persuasion/Deception/Intimidation, so that way you don’t need to verbally reveal to everyone that you’ve caught on to someone else’s lies in order to change your manipulation strategy. With some of the subclasses wanting the Monk themselves to be making the Cha check, it would be nice to have them have a skill open for it so that the ability doesn’t just sit unused, collecting dust.
I found the two levels with the weakest features (In my opinion). Namely, the wall/water running ability, and knowing all languages.
Running up walls and across water is really cool, and is really fun to use. It’s a little less effective than expected because you can’t use it to cross lakes or anything, though it’s still very useful. I picked it because all the other levels even close to low-level were either ASIs/Subclass features, or had two features at that level already. You could definitely pick 10th level for this instead, but I think wall running is slightly weaker than full poison immunity + 5 extra movement, and I was trying to give Step of the Wind as early as I reasonably could.
Tongue of the Sun and Moon letting you speak all languages isn’t super useful, especially with how late it comes and that monks don’t get any other social features except from some subclasses.
Step of the Wind is less powerful that Patient Defense (there’s a reason why Rogues and Goblin PCs can dash but not dodge), so I put that one first. Monks already have so many features, it was hard to find an empty level (especially factoring in the optional bonus class features).
I don’t think monks need a buff at all, but if I did, it would either be giving them a third skill or granting free step of the wind at level 13.
A 3rd skill would be huge. Most people forget that Monks are fairly skill starved. It's masked by the focus on Dexterity and Wisdom as their needed Attributes. But they have a hard time really excelling and sometimes even contributing skill wise to a party without really going out of your way to know what the party can do and choosing around that to the best of your ability, including what Backgrounds you take, and backgrounds in general are not the kindest to the monk when it comes to skills.
This is a fair point. On the other hand, since Monks are so dependent on having good stats I think it's fair to say that it's not very common for people to play them if they don't roll well for stats which means that they are usually kind of good even without extra skills. But as you say, a third skill would be huge for monks and they really don't *need* it.
Yeah, and having an extra skill would help a lot for making Tongue of Sun and Moon more useful. Most monks want to have Stealth, Insight, Perception, and either Acrobatics or Slight of Hand, meaning there is no room for a social skill. By having the option to at least have proficiency without sacrificing a more important skill, monks can be a more Insight and understanding-focused social user, while allowing the subclasses like Astral Self and Ascendant Dragon to use their Charisma skill improvements with something more than a +1 bonus due to MADness not letting them invest in Cha very much.
Insight is a social skill. It's just not used when your character does the talking. You're reading someone else; sizing them up. Any information gathered from it can always be, at a later time, relayed to someone else or acted upon.
One character doesn't have to do everything. Working together, relying on different people's strengths, is preferable. It helps cut down on the MADness people impose on themselves.
Yeah, Insight is a skill Monks are good at, and I mentioned it in my answer. When I said Social skill, I should have said Charisma skill. In my personal experience, you want to have both Insight and at least one of Persuasion/Deception/Intimidation, so that way you don’t need to verbally reveal to everyone that you’ve caught on to someone else’s lies in order to change your manipulation strategy. With some of the subclasses wanting the Monk themselves to be making the Cha check, it would be nice to have them have a skill open for it so that the ability doesn’t just sit unused, collecting dust.
Your making the assumption that People outright always have a manipulation strategy. A lot of conversations don't need a manipulation strategy and a lot of people that you use insight on don't necessarily need more than for you to know they are not being truthful to change how they handle the conversation. They are two seperate functions that can and often do work independent of each other just as much as they might work with each other. There are also many archetypes. Some of which are embodies by monks that actually avoid such tactics combinations.
I found the two levels with the weakest features (In my opinion). Namely, the wall/water running ability, and knowing all languages.
Running up walls and across water is really cool, and is really fun to use. It’s a little less effective than expected because you can’t use it to cross lakes or anything, though it’s still very useful. I picked it because all the other levels even close to low-level were either ASIs/Subclass features, or had two features at that level already. You could definitely pick 10th level for this instead, but I think wall running is slightly weaker than full poison immunity + 5 extra movement, and I was trying to give Step of the Wind as early as I reasonably could.
Tongue of the Sun and Moon letting you speak all languages isn’t super useful, especially with how late it comes and that monks don’t get any other social features except from some subclasses.
Step of the Wind is less powerful that Patient Defense (there’s a reason why Rogues and Goblin PCs can dash but not dodge), so I put that one first. Monks already have so many features, it was hard to find an empty level (especially factoring in the optional bonus class features).
I don’t think monks need a buff at all, but if I did, it would either be giving them a third skill or granting free step of the wind at level 13.
A 3rd skill would be huge. Most people forget that Monks are fairly skill starved. It's masked by the focus on Dexterity and Wisdom as their needed Attributes. But they have a hard time really excelling and sometimes even contributing skill wise to a party without really going out of your way to know what the party can do and choosing around that to the best of your ability, including what Backgrounds you take, and backgrounds in general are not the kindest to the monk when it comes to skills.
This is a fair point. On the other hand, since Monks are so dependent on having good stats I think it's fair to say that it's not very common for people to play them if they don't roll well for stats which means that they are usually kind of good even without extra skills. But as you say, a third skill would be huge for monks and they really don't *need* it.
Yeah, and having an extra skill would help a lot for making Tongue of Sun and Moon more useful. Most monks want to have Stealth, Insight, Perception, and either Acrobatics or Slight of Hand, meaning there is no room for a social skill. By having the option to at least have proficiency without sacrificing a more important skill, monks can be a more Insight and understanding-focused social user, while allowing the subclasses like Astral Self and Ascendant Dragon to use their Charisma skill improvements with something more than a +1 bonus due to MADness not letting them invest in Cha very much.
Insight is a social skill. It's just not used when your character does the talking. You're reading someone else; sizing them up. Any information gathered from it can always be, at a later time, relayed to someone else or acted upon.
One character doesn't have to do everything. Working together, relying on different people's strengths, is preferable. It helps cut down on the MADness people impose on themselves.
Yeah, Insight is a skill Monks are good at, and I mentioned it in my answer. When I said Social skill, I should have said Charisma skill. In my personal experience, you want to have both Insight and at least one of Persuasion/Deception/Intimidation, so that way you don’t need to verbally reveal to everyone that you’ve caught on to someone else’s lies in order to change your manipulation strategy. With some of the subclasses wanting the Monk themselves to be making the Cha check, it would be nice to have them have a skill open for it so that the ability doesn’t just sit unused, collecting dust.
Your making the assumption that People outright always have a manipulation strategy. A lot of conversations don't need a manipulation strategy and a lot of people that you use insight on don't necessarily need more than for you to know they are not being truthful to change how they handle the conversation. They are two seperate functions that can and often do work independent of each other just as much as they might work with each other. There are also many archetypes. Some of which are embodies by monks that actually avoid such tactics combinations.
Yes, Insight is a means of gathering information. What you do with that information is up to you. When and how you act on that information is, likewise, up to you. Say you catch an NPC in a lie:
If you want to out the NPC right then and there, leaving the role of manipulation to someone else in the party, you can.
If you want to keep the knowledge to yourself, confer with the party, and decide on a course of action together, you can.
It's a team game. Play as a team. You don't have to do everything yourself.
You are both saying things that I agree with: you have options, and you have teammates. I’m just saying that having one Charisma skill would be pretty nice for most Monks, especially the archetypes like Shadow, Astral Self, and eventually Ascendant Dragon that have abilities/playstyles that either put you in an impromptu situation where YOU specifically need to make a sudden check, such as a caught Shadow Monk needing to convince people they are actually a guard, or have an ability that triggers off of the Monk being the one making the Charisma check.
You are both saying things that I agree with: you have options, and you have teammates. I’m just saying that having one Charisma skill would be pretty nice for most Monks, especially the archetypes like Shadow, Astral Self, and eventually Ascendant Dragon that have abilities/playstyles that either put you in an impromptu situation where YOU specifically need to make a sudden check, such as a caught Shadow Monk needing to convince people they are actually a guard, or have an ability that triggers off of the Monk being the one making the Charisma check.
A monk who wishes to convince someone they are a guard should probably be disguised as one. That's not something any monk can do on their own; they lack proficiency with both Deception and a disguise kit. But, fortunately, that's why everyone also gets a background and racial traits. These are used to flesh out your character and gain proficiencies you otherwise might not have.
Likewise, it's probably a good idea for an Arcane Trickster rogue or Eldtritch Knight fighter to be proficient with Arcana. But, just as with the monk example above, they can't do it with their class alone.
But it's also perfectly acceptable for your character to not be able to do everything. It's okay to have a monk or rogue without Charisma skills. It won't break anything. It won't make your character unplayable. And it shouldn't hold you back from trying something anyway just because of what might happen.
You are both saying things that I agree with: you have options, and you have teammates. I’m just saying that having one Charisma skill would be pretty nice for most Monks, especially the archetypes like Shadow, Astral Self, and eventually Ascendant Dragon that have abilities/playstyles that either put you in an impromptu situation where YOU specifically need to make a sudden check, such as a caught Shadow Monk needing to convince people they are actually a guard, or have an ability that triggers off of the Monk being the one making the Charisma check.
A monk who wishes to convince someone they are a guard should probably be disguised as one. That's not something any monk can do on their own; they lack proficiency with both [skill]Deception[/skill and a disguise kit. But, fortunately, that's why everyone also gets a background and racial traits. These are used to flesh out your character and gain proficiencies you otherwise might not have.
Likewise, it's probably a good idea for an Arcane Trickster rogue or Eldtritch Knight fighter to be proficient with Arcana. But, just as with the monk example above, they can't do it with their class alone.
But it's also perfectly acceptable for your character to not be able to do everything. It's okay to have a monk or rogue without Charisma skills. It won't break anything. It won't make your character unplayable. And it shouldn't hold you back from trying something anyway just because of what might happen.
Not only is it acceptable to have a monk or rogue, or a number of other classes that aren't good at Charisma skills. It's is also acceptable to put a little more into those skills and actually make use of such things.
Athletics, Deception, Perception, and Stealth are the 4 most commonly given skills by backgrounds. Sometimes even giving you two things on this list, and with a decent handful switching in persuasion.
It is possible to build a decently sociable character without needing good numbers in all 3 of what are conidered the primary social skills. Often one is useful based upon the individual character and the background that they take.
It's also not going to hurt in most games if you sacrifice an ASI into something like Charisma or even start with Charisma as one of your highest two stats or be bumped up by your racial bonuses if you really want to since most games don't go into high enough levels where it's truly a problem (and it's only a problem there because the balance starts to fall apart at the highest tier and even min-maxed builds can be crushed). Most people just work under the illusion it's a problem at all tiers and that min-maxing is still required on some level like it was in 3.x/PF. And many that present themselves as authorities making builds and presenting guides help to continue and even exacerbate that incorrect perception and way of thinking.
The Help for that decently Social style Monk. It's already in place in the game. It just gets ignored by a fair number of the players. And not just on monks but on all classes that don't have Charisma as a Primary or Strong Secondary stat. But the reality is that Proficiency gives as good of a boost as having a high stat modifier. And there are many ways to make that go higher for the monk player that chooses to do so.
Though I do want to point out that Shadow Monks are not actually in any way more gifted or more prone to some kind of social build than any other. They do not have something that even mildly stands out particular to them in that regard. Arguably their nature actually tends to flow against the social type because they are ones that stick to the shadows instead by the flavor of them. Though any particular one can run counter to that flavor. As for Astral Monk it leans into the most situational of the "big three" social skills in intimidation. Ascendant Dragon we can't trust to stay anything like it's current form, But if it does. it actually can benefit from less standard builds to some extent. Not only because It relies heavily on DC's which means most of it's powers would be much better served with Wisdom Being Primary, but also because it does have various little things that lean slightly into other stats besides just Dexterity and Wisdom even if they are sometimes limited in useful application.
You are both saying things that I agree with: you have options, and you have teammates. I’m just saying that having one Charisma skill would be pretty nice for most Monks, especially the archetypes like Shadow, Astral Self, and eventually Ascendant Dragon that have abilities/playstyles that either put you in an impromptu situation where YOU specifically need to make a sudden check, such as a caught Shadow Monk needing to convince people they are actually a guard, or have an ability that triggers off of the Monk being the one making the Charisma check.
By building your own background you can easily get deception/and or persuasion. Many races also gives you at least one of those skills. And as mentioned, if you are trying to convince people you are a guard you should probably be dressed as one. Which should, depending on the situation, give some kind of advantage or bonus to the appropriate roll. You don't need proficiency in disguise kit to dress up in a guard's uniform. :)
You are both saying things that I agree with: you have options, and you have teammates. I’m just saying that having one Charisma skill would be pretty nice for most Monks, especially the archetypes like Shadow, Astral Self, and eventually Ascendant Dragon that have abilities/playstyles that either put you in an impromptu situation where YOU specifically need to make a sudden check, such as a caught Shadow Monk needing to convince people they are actually a guard, or have an ability that triggers off of the Monk being the one making the Charisma check.
By building your own background you can easily get deception/and or persuasion. Many races also gives you at least one of those skills. And as mentioned, if you are trying to convince people you are a guard you should probably be dressed as one. Which should, depending on the situation, give some kind of advantage or bonus to the appropriate roll. You don't need proficiency in disguise kit to dress up in a guard's uniform. :)
You technically don't, you're right, but if you want to take advantage of the Skills and Tools Together from Xanathar's, you need proficiency in the tool you're using.
You are both saying things that I agree with: you have options, and you have teammates. I’m just saying that having one Charisma skill would be pretty nice for most Monks, especially the archetypes like Shadow, Astral Self, and eventually Ascendant Dragon that have abilities/playstyles that either put you in an impromptu situation where YOU specifically need to make a sudden check, such as a caught Shadow Monk needing to convince people they are actually a guard, or have an ability that triggers off of the Monk being the one making the Charisma check.
By building your own background you can easily get deception/and or persuasion. Many races also gives you at least one of those skills. And as mentioned, if you are trying to convince people you are a guard you should probably be dressed as one. Which should, depending on the situation, give some kind of advantage or bonus to the appropriate roll. You don't need proficiency in disguise kit to dress up in a guard's uniform. :)
You technically don't, you're right, but if you want to take advantage of the Skills and Tools Together from Xanathar's, you need proficiency in the tool you're using.
A uniform isn't a tool and doesn't require proficiency. Using a disguise kit is more about altering the appearance of the person rather than say, dressing up. So you can't use a uniform as a disguise kit and vice versa. You can still try to fool someone that you are a guard but you wouldn't get any help a disguise kit if you also used one of those unless you had proficiency in DG, no.
But in this case the uniform isn't a tool but something that just facilitates the deception. Depending on the situation I might allow it to convey some sort of bonus (anything from a lower DC to advantage on the roll) but on the other hand it might also be a hindrance if you don't know how to act like a guard or if you come across the guard captain who knows all their personel.
You are both saying things that I agree with: you have options, and you have teammates. I’m just saying that having one Charisma skill would be pretty nice for most Monks, especially the archetypes like Shadow, Astral Self, and eventually Ascendant Dragon that have abilities/playstyles that either put you in an impromptu situation where YOU specifically need to make a sudden check, such as a caught Shadow Monk needing to convince people they are actually a guard, or have an ability that triggers off of the Monk being the one making the Charisma check.
By building your own background you can easily get deception/and or persuasion. Many races also gives you at least one of those skills. And as mentioned, if you are trying to convince people you are a guard you should probably be dressed as one. Which should, depending on the situation, give some kind of advantage or bonus to the appropriate roll. You don't need proficiency in disguise kit to dress up in a guard's uniform. :)
You technically don't, you're right, but if you want to take advantage of the Skills and Tools Together from Xanathar's, you need proficiency in the tool you're using.
A uniform isn't a tool and doesn't require proficiency. Using a disguise kit is more about altering the appearance of the person rather than say, dressing up. So you can't use a uniform as a disguise kit and vice versa. You can still try to fool someone that you are a guard but you wouldn't get any help a disguise kit if you also used one of those unless you had proficiency in DG, no.
But in this case the uniform isn't a tool but something that just facilitates the deception. Depending on the situation I might allow it to convey some sort of bonus (anything from a lower DC to advantage on the roll) but on the other hand it might also be a hindrance if you don't know how to act like a guard or if you come across the guard captain who knows all their personel.
No. What wearing a Guard Uniform, and acting something like a guard does. What that does is actually lower the DC. Not add advantage onto it. If your looking and acting completely unlike a guard while trying to convince somebody you are one then you have a much harder difficulty. That's the point of difficulty to begin with. How hard it is to pull off what your trying to do.
What the disguise kit can do is to actually add further details to make you look like a guard other than just a uniform. Because Guards often aren't just a uniform. They may have various other details, even down to particular race, in common or you may need to make yourself look as best like somebody else as you can to help pull t off. Which is where the Disguise Kit may come into play to help you pull off the disguise through the tool proficiency and skill combination.
You are both saying things that I agree with: you have options, and you have teammates. I’m just saying that having one Charisma skill would be pretty nice for most Monks, especially the archetypes like Shadow, Astral Self, and eventually Ascendant Dragon that have abilities/playstyles that either put you in an impromptu situation where YOU specifically need to make a sudden check, such as a caught Shadow Monk needing to convince people they are actually a guard, or have an ability that triggers off of the Monk being the one making the Charisma check.
By building your own background you can easily get deception/and or persuasion. Many races also gives you at least one of those skills. And as mentioned, if you are trying to convince people you are a guard you should probably be dressed as one. Which should, depending on the situation, give some kind of advantage or bonus to the appropriate roll. You don't need proficiency in disguise kit to dress up in a guard's uniform. :)
You technically don't, you're right, but if you want to take advantage of the Skills and Tools Together from Xanathar's, you need proficiency in the tool you're using.
A uniform isn't a tool and doesn't require proficiency. Using a disguise kit is more about altering the appearance of the person rather than say, dressing up. So you can't use a uniform as a disguise kit and vice versa. You can still try to fool someone that you are a guard but you wouldn't get any help a disguise kit if you also used one of those unless you had proficiency in DG, no.
But in this case the uniform isn't a tool but something that just facilitates the deception. Depending on the situation I might allow it to convey some sort of bonus (anything from a lower DC to advantage on the roll) but on the other hand it might also be a hindrance if you don't know how to act like a guard or if you come across the guard captain who knows all their personel.
No. What wearing a Guard Uniform, and acting something like a guard does. What that does is actually lower the DC. Not add advantage onto it. If your looking and acting completely unlike a guard while trying to convince somebody you are one then you have a much harder difficulty. That's the point of difficulty to begin with. How hard it is to pull off what your trying to do.
Well, that's completely up to the DM. Which is my example is me. :)
What the disguise kit can do is to actually add further details to make you look like a guard other than just a uniform. Because Guards often aren't just a uniform. They may have various other details, even down to particular race, in common or you may need to make yourself look as best like somebody else as you can to help pull t off. Which is where the Disguise Kit may come into play to help you pull off the disguise through the tool proficiency and skill combination.
Yeah, no-one ever said it didn't. I just pointed out the difference between wearing a uniform as a disguise and using a disguise kit.
You are both saying things that I agree with: you have options, and you have teammates. I’m just saying that having one Charisma skill would be pretty nice for most Monks, especially the archetypes like Shadow, Astral Self, and eventually Ascendant Dragon that have abilities/playstyles that either put you in an impromptu situation where YOU specifically need to make a sudden check, such as a caught Shadow Monk needing to convince people they are actually a guard, or have an ability that triggers off of the Monk being the one making the Charisma check.
By building your own background you can easily get deception/and or persuasion. Many races also gives you at least one of those skills. And as mentioned, if you are trying to convince people you are a guard you should probably be dressed as one. Which should, depending on the situation, give some kind of advantage or bonus to the appropriate roll. You don't need proficiency in disguise kit to dress up in a guard's uniform. :)
You technically don't, you're right, but if you want to take advantage of the Skills and Tools Together from Xanathar's, you need proficiency in the tool you're using.
A uniform isn't a tool and doesn't require proficiency. Using a disguise kit is more about altering the appearance of the person rather than say, dressing up. So you can't use a uniform as a disguise kit and vice versa. You can still try to fool someone that you are a guard but you wouldn't get any help a disguise kit if you also used one of those unless you had proficiency in DG, no.
But in this case the uniform isn't a tool but something that just facilitates the deception. Depending on the situation I might allow it to convey some sort of bonus (anything from a lower DC to advantage on the roll) but on the other hand it might also be a hindrance if you don't know how to act like a guard or if you come across the guard captain who knows all their personel.
No. What wearing a Guard Uniform, and acting something like a guard does. What that does is actually lower the DC. Not add advantage onto it. If your looking and acting completely unlike a guard while trying to convince somebody you are one then you have a much harder difficulty. That's the point of difficulty to begin with. How hard it is to pull off what your trying to do.
Well, that's completely up to the DM. Which is my example is me. :)
What the disguise kit can do is to actually add further details to make you look like a guard other than just a uniform. Because Guards often aren't just a uniform. They may have various other details, even down to particular race, in common or you may need to make yourself look as best like somebody else as you can to help pull t off. Which is where the Disguise Kit may come into play to help you pull off the disguise through the tool proficiency and skill combination.
Yeah, no-one ever said it didn't. I just pointed out the difference between wearing a uniform as a disguise and using a disguise kit.
Adding Advantage to the role would be purely by you. But lowering the DC because somebody is looking and Acting Gardlike isn't entirely you even as the DM. You do get to determine the starting DC and what it might lower to or raise to. But the lowering or raising the DC is actually a function of the rules that your helping to Arbitrate as the DM.
You are both saying things that I agree with: you have options, and you have teammates. I’m just saying that having one Charisma skill would be pretty nice for most Monks, especially the archetypes like Shadow, Astral Self, and eventually Ascendant Dragon that have abilities/playstyles that either put you in an impromptu situation where YOU specifically need to make a sudden check, such as a caught Shadow Monk needing to convince people they are actually a guard, or have an ability that triggers off of the Monk being the one making the Charisma check.
By building your own background you can easily get deception/and or persuasion. Many races also gives you at least one of those skills. And as mentioned, if you are trying to convince people you are a guard you should probably be dressed as one. Which should, depending on the situation, give some kind of advantage or bonus to the appropriate roll. You don't need proficiency in disguise kit to dress up in a guard's uniform. :)
You technically don't, you're right, but if you want to take advantage of the Skills and Tools Together from Xanathar's, you need proficiency in the tool you're using.
A uniform isn't a tool and doesn't require proficiency. Using a disguise kit is more about altering the appearance of the person rather than say, dressing up. So you can't use a uniform as a disguise kit and vice versa. You can still try to fool someone that you are a guard but you wouldn't get any help a disguise kit if you also used one of those unless you had proficiency in DG, no.
But in this case the uniform isn't a tool but something that just facilitates the deception. Depending on the situation I might allow it to convey some sort of bonus (anything from a lower DC to advantage on the roll) but on the other hand it might also be a hindrance if you don't know how to act like a guard or if you come across the guard captain who knows all their personel.
No. What wearing a Guard Uniform, and acting something like a guard does. What that does is actually lower the DC. Not add advantage onto it. If your looking and acting completely unlike a guard while trying to convince somebody you are one then you have a much harder difficulty. That's the point of difficulty to begin with. How hard it is to pull off what your trying to do.
Well, that's completely up to the DM. Which is my example is me. :)
What the disguise kit can do is to actually add further details to make you look like a guard other than just a uniform. Because Guards often aren't just a uniform. They may have various other details, even down to particular race, in common or you may need to make yourself look as best like somebody else as you can to help pull t off. Which is where the Disguise Kit may come into play to help you pull off the disguise through the tool proficiency and skill combination.
Yeah, no-one ever said it didn't. I just pointed out the difference between wearing a uniform as a disguise and using a disguise kit.
Adding Advantage to the role would be purely by you. But lowering the DC because somebody is looking and Acting Gardlike isn't entirely you even as the DM. You do get to determine the starting DC and what it might lower to or raise to. But the lowering or raising the DC is actually a function of the rules that your helping to Arbitrate as the DM.
How nice of you to tell us what we already know.
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A 3rd skill would be huge. Most people forget that Monks are fairly skill starved. It's masked by the focus on Dexterity and Wisdom as their needed Attributes. But they have a hard time really excelling and sometimes even contributing skill wise to a party without really going out of your way to know what the party can do and choosing around that to the best of your ability, including what Backgrounds you take, and backgrounds in general are not the kindest to the monk when it comes to skills.
I think Step of the Wind should cost a Ki point but be better than it is. Astral Self monks are a step in the right direction, but since Step of the Wind is about spending Ki on mobility, and Monks are intended to be bad at strength, let the ki point expenditure help with that. Something like including in Step of the Wind, "Until the beginning of your next turn, you may roll Dexterity (Acrobatics) instead whenever you are called upon to roll Strength (Athletics)."
This is a fair point. On the other hand, since Monks are so dependent on having good stats I think it's fair to say that it's not very common for people to play them if they don't roll well for stats which means that they are usually kind of good even without extra skills. But as you say, a third skill would be huge for monks and they really don't *need* it.
Monks aren't intended to be bad at strength. It's just that due to how 5E works strength is a common dump stat for many classes.
Like Lost Says. The dumping strength is pretty much entirely a Player choice. Even with point buy or STandard Array this does not actually have to be the case. But they are going to sacrifice somewhere. Also. Many Backgrounds actually give proficiency in Athletics which actually puts a fair skill in athletics even without much in strength but for those with even an ok strength end up doing pretty well in Athletics. It's one of the factors where backgrounds aren't necessarily the nicest to Monks but because of the way things line up they tend to have ok numbers that hides the fact that they aren't really great when it comes to skills. But this one happens be one of the rare ones that tends to be because of proficiency rather than abilities.
Yeah, and having an extra skill would help a lot for making Tongue of Sun and Moon more useful. Most monks want to have Stealth, Insight, Perception, and either Acrobatics or Slight of Hand, meaning there is no room for a social skill. By having the option to at least have proficiency without sacrificing a more important skill, monks can be a more Insight and understanding-focused social user, while allowing the subclasses like Astral Self and Ascendant Dragon to use their Charisma skill improvements with something more than a +1 bonus due to MADness not letting them invest in Cha very much.
Insight is a social skill. It's just not used when your character does the talking. You're reading someone else; sizing them up. Any information gathered from it can always be, at a later time, relayed to someone else or acted upon.
One character doesn't have to do everything. Working together, relying on different people's strengths, is preferable. It helps cut down on the MADness people impose on themselves.
Yeah, Insight is a skill Monks are good at, and I mentioned it in my answer. When I said Social skill, I should have said Charisma skill. In my personal experience, you want to have both Insight and at least one of Persuasion/Deception/Intimidation, so that way you don’t need to verbally reveal to everyone that you’ve caught on to someone else’s lies in order to change your manipulation strategy. With some of the subclasses wanting the Monk themselves to be making the Cha check, it would be nice to have them have a skill open for it so that the ability doesn’t just sit unused, collecting dust.
Your making the assumption that People outright always have a manipulation strategy. A lot of conversations don't need a manipulation strategy and a lot of people that you use insight on don't necessarily need more than for you to know they are not being truthful to change how they handle the conversation. They are two seperate functions that can and often do work independent of each other just as much as they might work with each other. There are also many archetypes. Some of which are embodies by monks that actually avoid such tactics combinations.
Yes, Insight is a means of gathering information. What you do with that information is up to you. When and how you act on that information is, likewise, up to you. Say you catch an NPC in a lie:
It's a team game. Play as a team. You don't have to do everything yourself.
You are both saying things that I agree with: you have options, and you have teammates.
I’m just saying that having one Charisma skill would be pretty nice for most Monks, especially the archetypes like Shadow, Astral Self, and eventually Ascendant Dragon that have abilities/playstyles that either put you in an impromptu situation where YOU specifically need to make a sudden check, such as a caught Shadow Monk needing to convince people they are actually a guard, or have an ability that triggers off of the Monk being the one making the Charisma check.
A monk who wishes to convince someone they are a guard should probably be disguised as one. That's not something any monk can do on their own; they lack proficiency with both Deception and a disguise kit. But, fortunately, that's why everyone also gets a background and racial traits. These are used to flesh out your character and gain proficiencies you otherwise might not have.
Likewise, it's probably a good idea for an Arcane Trickster rogue or Eldtritch Knight fighter to be proficient with Arcana. But, just as with the monk example above, they can't do it with their class alone.
But it's also perfectly acceptable for your character to not be able to do everything. It's okay to have a monk or rogue without Charisma skills. It won't break anything. It won't make your character unplayable. And it shouldn't hold you back from trying something anyway just because of what might happen.
Not only is it acceptable to have a monk or rogue, or a number of other classes that aren't good at Charisma skills. It's is also acceptable to put a little more into those skills and actually make use of such things.
Athletics, Deception, Perception, and Stealth are the 4 most commonly given skills by backgrounds. Sometimes even giving you two things on this list, and with a decent handful switching in persuasion.
It is possible to build a decently sociable character without needing good numbers in all 3 of what are conidered the primary social skills. Often one is useful based upon the individual character and the background that they take.
It's also not going to hurt in most games if you sacrifice an ASI into something like Charisma or even start with Charisma as one of your highest two stats or be bumped up by your racial bonuses if you really want to since most games don't go into high enough levels where it's truly a problem (and it's only a problem there because the balance starts to fall apart at the highest tier and even min-maxed builds can be crushed). Most people just work under the illusion it's a problem at all tiers and that min-maxing is still required on some level like it was in 3.x/PF. And many that present themselves as authorities making builds and presenting guides help to continue and even exacerbate that incorrect perception and way of thinking.
The Help for that decently Social style Monk. It's already in place in the game. It just gets ignored by a fair number of the players. And not just on monks but on all classes that don't have Charisma as a Primary or Strong Secondary stat. But the reality is that Proficiency gives as good of a boost as having a high stat modifier. And there are many ways to make that go higher for the monk player that chooses to do so.
Though I do want to point out that Shadow Monks are not actually in any way more gifted or more prone to some kind of social build than any other. They do not have something that even mildly stands out particular to them in that regard. Arguably their nature actually tends to flow against the social type because they are ones that stick to the shadows instead by the flavor of them. Though any particular one can run counter to that flavor. As for Astral Monk it leans into the most situational of the "big three" social skills in intimidation. Ascendant Dragon we can't trust to stay anything like it's current form, But if it does. it actually can benefit from less standard builds to some extent. Not only because It relies heavily on DC's which means most of it's powers would be much better served with Wisdom Being Primary, but also because it does have various little things that lean slightly into other stats besides just Dexterity and Wisdom even if they are sometimes limited in useful application.
By building your own background you can easily get deception/and or persuasion. Many races also gives you at least one of those skills. And as mentioned, if you are trying to convince people you are a guard you should probably be dressed as one. Which should, depending on the situation, give some kind of advantage or bonus to the appropriate roll. You don't need proficiency in disguise kit to dress up in a guard's uniform. :)
You technically don't, you're right, but if you want to take advantage of the Skills and Tools Together from Xanathar's, you need proficiency in the tool you're using.
A uniform isn't a tool and doesn't require proficiency. Using a disguise kit is more about altering the appearance of the person rather than say, dressing up. So you can't use a uniform as a disguise kit and vice versa. You can still try to fool someone that you are a guard but you wouldn't get any help a disguise kit if you also used one of those unless you had proficiency in DG, no.
But in this case the uniform isn't a tool but something that just facilitates the deception. Depending on the situation I might allow it to convey some sort of bonus (anything from a lower DC to advantage on the roll) but on the other hand it might also be a hindrance if you don't know how to act like a guard or if you come across the guard captain who knows all their personel.
No. What wearing a Guard Uniform, and acting something like a guard does. What that does is actually lower the DC. Not add advantage onto it. If your looking and acting completely unlike a guard while trying to convince somebody you are one then you have a much harder difficulty. That's the point of difficulty to begin with. How hard it is to pull off what your trying to do.
What the disguise kit can do is to actually add further details to make you look like a guard other than just a uniform. Because Guards often aren't just a uniform. They may have various other details, even down to particular race, in common or you may need to make yourself look as best like somebody else as you can to help pull t off. Which is where the Disguise Kit may come into play to help you pull off the disguise through the tool proficiency and skill combination.
Well, that's completely up to the DM. Which is my example is me. :)
Yeah, no-one ever said it didn't. I just pointed out the difference between wearing a uniform as a disguise and using a disguise kit.
Adding Advantage to the role would be purely by you. But lowering the DC because somebody is looking and Acting Gardlike isn't entirely you even as the DM. You do get to determine the starting DC and what it might lower to or raise to. But the lowering or raising the DC is actually a function of the rules that your helping to Arbitrate as the DM.
How nice of you to tell us what we already know.