Yeah, sorry my intention came out wrong here, I didn't actually mean the way of the long death is wrong in anyway there, I mean it follows its theme quite alright but if I want to play a monk I don't want to be forced to play evil just because the other subclasses feel weird, is more what I was going for.
And yeah, for the rest of the stuff, I agree there is some truth and obviously a bunch of myths around the rest of the abilities. Honestly just staying healthy and training, which most monks obviously did, will get you far just because your body is in good shape and can in that sense resist a bunch of diseases and such. In addition there are physical ailments that are lessened by physical excercise so in that sense it makes a lot of sense. And to be fair an old person who trains a lot will, like anyone else be in better shape than one who doesn't so the old age thing could be a mix of just that + the mythic tradition of it.
The astral self part and such, I understand the myths around it, I just feel like it shouldn't be an "every person thing" which I guess to be fair it isn't since not everyone gets to become level 20 or even 15 or 10..
But this is part of what I'm getting at I guess. IF I play a monk I will, unless goblins get me, become level 20 eventually. This means my goal is a character that will project his astral self outside his body. I will automatically learn this. Like I think I mentioned it feels roughly the same (but different) as if a fighter always learned magic at higher levels. I mean, in a specific setting this could be cool I guess, it's just every monk does this and I haven't really grasped my mind around it in a way that I like yet.
Edit: That rephrased quote wasn't ment to be offensive btw, just shortening it down so you (Fateless) in particular would easier see which post I responded to.
As for the other post about what the thread might be about, I've played dnd for a long time. Back in 3rd edition, when subclasses wasn't a thing, they were roughly a variant of what the base monk is now. I didn't like it. I like the concept of a martial artist monk, just not the whole class. I do appreciate they changed the speed of movement and a few other things.
And like I said it's not about wether the class is good or not, I honestly don't care as long as I have fun. And I WANT to play a monk, but there's always something that puts me off ;)
Perhaps I went to broad in the same thread, there's a lot of issues I want adressed I guess.
For what it's worth I am liking the class a bit better by now, since just talking about it in depth lets me, either with suggestions or own thoughts, get a different image and reasoning behind the different abilities, like my previous post where I mention I will get the astral self ability but realizing that to be fair it's at a very late level and it feels a bit better thinking about it considering that at that level, the amount of training of body and mind actually opens up for such a thing. Or like how I realized that the whole ki mastery over your body kinda purifies your body vs poisons and disease. I still don't get the speech bit but in general it feels a bit better.
Actually since Shadow monks can cast spells they qualify for the eldritch invocation feat.
Its not actually the required component unfortunately
Prerequisite: Spellcasting or Pact Magic feature
Shadow Arts
Starting when you choose this tradition at 3rd level, you can use your ki to duplicate the effects of certain spells. As an action, you can spend 2 ki points to cast darkness, darkvision, pass without trace, or silence, without providing material components. Additionally, you gain the minor illusion cantrip if you don’t already know it.
Since shadow arts is not explicitly called Spellcasting or Pact Magic then it does not qualify.
Yeah, sorry my intention came out wrong here, I didn't actually mean the way of the long death is wrong in anyway there, I mean it follows its theme quite alright but if I want to play a monk I don't want to be forced to play evil just because the other subclasses feel weird, is more what I was going for.
And yeah, for the rest of the stuff, I agree there is some truth and obviously a bunch of myths around the rest of the abilities. Honestly just staying healthy and training, which most monks obviously did, will get you far just because your body is in good shape and can in that sense resist a bunch of diseases and such. In addition there are physical ailments that are lessened by physical excercise so in that sense it makes a lot of sense. And to be fair an old person who trains a lot will, like anyone else be in better shape than one who doesn't so the old age thing could be a mix of just that + the mythic tradition of it.
The astral self part and such, I understand the myths around it, I just feel like it shouldn't be an "every person thing" which I guess to be fair it isn't since not everyone gets to become level 20 or even 15 or 10..
But this is part of what I'm getting at I guess. IF I play a monk I will, unless goblins get me, become level 20 eventually. This means my goal is a character that will project his astral self outside his body. I will automatically learn this. Like I think I mentioned it feels roughly the same (but different) as if a fighter always learned magic at higher levels. I mean, in a specific setting this could be cool I guess, it's just every monk does this and I haven't really grasped my mind around it in a way that I like yet.
Edit: That rephrased quote wasn't ment to be offensive btw, just shortening it down so you (Fateless) in particular would easier see which post I responded to.
Belief behind the monastic Traditions that monks draw from held that if you got enlightened enough and far along in your training that All monks would eventually do such things like Astral Projection. Not that you actually ever have to use Astral Projection. (honestly I've used it less than some of the ribbon abilities when you consider all the monks i've played myself).
But as you pointed out. Not everybody is always going to get to the same level of Training. Even the character you play is not guaranteed to get to 20. We like to believe they will but many factors could stop that. Campaigns ending before that point. Which the end of a campaign is often a particular characters retirment point. Which means they could be 12 or 13. They could be considered Quite Skilled or even masters of a sort at that point. Even though they are 7 levels below max and a lot of abilities they didn't get. But they are still well advanced past the typical people and the many initiates that never make it to mastery.
Level of Training often is more the difference between what martial artists can do than Just the martial arts they practice. Most true Masters knew not only their style. But to some extent the styles of their competitors, allies, and enemies. Sometimes they would even incorporate some of that knowledge into advanced maneuvers they would use. A fight between two Masters, Unless they were doing something that limited them, would often use Multiple Styles to a high degree throughout a fight. On Top of that there were some disciplines and practices that transcended a singular type of fighting and were basically universal techniques. With some of those universal Techniques not necessarily being something that could be mastered by just any initiate.
As for the Long Death. Your talking about the Fluff for a particular setting. Where the Long Death Primarily exists when you talk about being forced to be evil. But here's the thing. Even in that setting they are not necessarily forced to be evil. There are ethical ways to study death and the way people die an the "mystical energies" around it. So that Fluff that your having hang ups with can be changed. Both in that setting but more importantly outside of that setting. It is just as possible to understand death through doing things like tending to the terminally ill as it is to torture creatures and many people tend to forget things like that.
Actually since Shadow monks can cast spells they qualify for the eldritch invocation feat.
Its not actually the required component unfortunately
Prerequisite: Spellcasting or Pact Magic feature
Shadow Arts
Starting when you choose this tradition at 3rd level, you can use your ki to duplicate the effects of certain spells. As an action, you can spend 2 ki points to cast darkness, darkvision, pass without trace, or silence, without providing material components. Additionally, you gain the minor illusion cantrip if you don’t already know it.
Since shadow arts is not explicitly called Spellcasting or Pact Magic then it does not qualify.
Dnd beyond disagree with you because not too long ago they changed it to be possible, and it wasn’t possible 1-2 months ago
Actually since Shadow monks can cast spells they qualify for the eldritch invocation feat.
Its not actually the required component unfortunately
Prerequisite: Spellcasting or Pact Magic feature
Shadow Arts
Starting when you choose this tradition at 3rd level, you can use your ki to duplicate the effects of certain spells. As an action, you can spend 2 ki points to cast darkness, darkvision, pass without trace, or silence, without providing material components. Additionally, you gain the minor illusion cantrip if you don’t already know it.
Since shadow arts is not explicitly called Spellcasting or Pact Magic then it does not qualify.
Dnd beyond disagree with you because not too long ago they changed it to be possible, and it wasn’t possible 1-2 months ago
Then D&D Beyond is wrong RAW. It specifically states the Spellcasting or Pact Magic feature, which is only available to some classes and subclasses. This is the Shadow Arts feature, which is unique to Way of the Shadow monks.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews!Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
Actually since Shadow monks can cast spells they qualify for the eldritch invocation feat.
Its not actually the required component unfortunately
Prerequisite: Spellcasting or Pact Magic feature
Shadow Arts
Starting when you choose this tradition at 3rd level, you can use your ki to duplicate the effects of certain spells. As an action, you can spend 2 ki points to cast darkness, darkvision, pass without trace, or silence, without providing material components. Additionally, you gain the minor illusion cantrip if you don’t already know it.
Since shadow arts is not explicitly called Spellcasting or Pact Magic then it does not qualify.
Dnd beyond disagree with you because not too long ago they changed it to be possible, and it wasn’t possible 1-2 months ago
DDB gets things wrong. It's not some perfect indicator of what works and what doesn't. It's completely possible that it's working is a bug as they fixed something else that should work but doesn't still. Or a bug they had to introduce to make something work.
Though there is a small possibility there is an errata change to the wording of the feat gaining invocations that we're not aware of yet. But the last one is the least likely possibility. I only state it for completeness because I don't have the time to be sure it isn't the case right now and somebody else might have the inspiration to go check instead by seeing it listed.
Fateless comment about how the way of the long death doesn't have to be evil and killing people in different ways actually makes sense and makes me revalue the subclass even more. It really does open up for some kinda plague-monk style of character/order which takes care of people who have gotten ill. That they report their findings afterwards isn't that peculiar to be honest. And to be fair, who else better to take care of plague victims than someone immune to it?
If we're giving testimonials on playing the monk to suggest it to other players I am currently playing a Level 8 Kalashtar Sun Soul Monk and I am enjoying it quite a bit. Before I continue though, if you are looking to do giant burst damage like say a Paladin then I will straight up tell you this class is not for you. The Sun Soul subtype is both flavorful and useful in that most features don't actually require ki points to use only to enhance them, and in early gameplay the monk can feel very ki starved.
In my opinion the best part of a Monk is that they never feel like they have a wasted action. There has been several times where our group have been in a dungeon and the rest of the party are struggling to be in the right place to be effective. Either the Fighter running to get into range to strike with his greatsword or the Cleric and Artificer trying to find a place where they can take defensible positions. With the aid of Step of the Wind you are where you need to be most of the time. Or if you're choosing to disengage, away from where you don't want to be.
Building your character to support your playstyle does come with playing a Monk. Other classes do have an advantage in this respect as they often railroad you to how the class was intended to play. For example, my Monk has picked up the Fey Touched feat to have access to Misty Step and Hex once per long rest. In almost every general encounter I found he is fine as is, but I found that in boss encounters I wanted to increase my presence and Hex has done wonders for that. Seeing as it pairs nicely with Radiant Sun Bolt I can skirmish around the boss fight at mid range doing 4 attacks at 2d6 + my Dexterity in damage per round with 1 ki point.
Personally, the things left to be desired are mostly that the game itself seems like it wasn't made to support the class like editions before it. Especially in terms of magic items tailored for the class. This however, with an agreeable DM, can be rectified with a little creative collaboration. Granted if the setting of the campaign allows it. We are currently playing Curse of Strahd, so very scarce magic items let alone a tailored one, but such is my fate lol.
In conclusion, with the class's enhanced mobility and variety of features the class feels useful almost every round. The mobility and lack of need for much in terms of inventory also make the class useful for exploration. Plus nothing feels quite as satisfying as landing a successful stunning strike so that you can watch on as the rest of the party pummel the creature into oblivion.
Actually since Shadow monks can cast spells they qualify for the eldritch invocation feat.
Its not actually the required component unfortunately
Prerequisite: Spellcasting or Pact Magic feature
Shadow Arts
Starting when you choose this tradition at 3rd level, you can use your ki to duplicate the effects of certain spells. As an action, you can spend 2 ki points to cast darkness, darkvision, pass without trace, or silence, without providing material components. Additionally, you gain the minor illusion cantrip if you don’t already know it.
Since shadow arts is not explicitly called Spellcasting or Pact Magic then it does not qualify.
Dnd beyond disagree with you because not too long ago they changed it to be possible, and it wasn’t possible 1-2 months ago
DDB also does not allow you to change out clockwork soul or aberrant mind sorcerer additional spells. Does that mean that’s no longer possible per the rules? No, it’s just a limit on what DDB character builder is capable of doing. DDB is not RAW and there are flaws and errors.
Monks could have been made to do more, and doing so in better step with their subclass themes. I think there was an overcorrection in making sure they couldn't outshine other classes with their versatility.
A good comparison might be to the Paladin. While the Paladin excels at most things a melee based class wants to do all the time, the monk has to choose which category to excel at in a given turn, and at the cost of resources for whatever they choose. Hence why Paladins feel broken and monks feel a little anemic outside of one or two levels where they really shine.
Yeah, sorry my intention came out wrong here, I didn't actually mean the way of the long death is wrong in anyway there, I mean it follows its theme quite alright but if I want to play a monk I don't want to be forced to play evil just because the other subclasses feel weird, is more what I was going for.
And yeah, for the rest of the stuff, I agree there is some truth and obviously a bunch of myths around the rest of the abilities. Honestly just staying healthy and training, which most monks obviously did, will get you far just because your body is in good shape and can in that sense resist a bunch of diseases and such. In addition there are physical ailments that are lessened by physical excercise so in that sense it makes a lot of sense. And to be fair an old person who trains a lot will, like anyone else be in better shape than one who doesn't so the old age thing could be a mix of just that + the mythic tradition of it.
The astral self part and such, I understand the myths around it, I just feel like it shouldn't be an "every person thing" which I guess to be fair it isn't since not everyone gets to become level 20 or even 15 or 10..
But this is part of what I'm getting at I guess. IF I play a monk I will, unless goblins get me, become level 20 eventually. This means my goal is a character that will project his astral self outside his body. I will automatically learn this. Like I think I mentioned it feels roughly the same (but different) as if a fighter always learned magic at higher levels. I mean, in a specific setting this could be cool I guess, it's just every monk does this and I haven't really grasped my mind around it in a way that I like yet.
Edit: That rephrased quote wasn't ment to be offensive btw, just shortening it down so you (Fateless) in particular would easier see which post I responded to.
As for the other post about what the thread might be about, I've played dnd for a long time. Back in 3rd edition, when subclasses wasn't a thing, they were roughly a variant of what the base monk is now. I didn't like it. I like the concept of a martial artist monk, just not the whole class. I do appreciate they changed the speed of movement and a few other things.
And like I said it's not about wether the class is good or not, I honestly don't care as long as I have fun. And I WANT to play a monk, but there's always something that puts me off ;)
Perhaps I went to broad in the same thread, there's a lot of issues I want adressed I guess.
For what it's worth I am liking the class a bit better by now, since just talking about it in depth lets me, either with suggestions or own thoughts, get a different image and reasoning behind the different abilities, like my previous post where I mention I will get the astral self ability but realizing that to be fair it's at a very late level and it feels a bit better thinking about it considering that at that level, the amount of training of body and mind actually opens up for such a thing. Or like how I realized that the whole ki mastery over your body kinda purifies your body vs poisons and disease. I still don't get the speech bit but in general it feels a bit better.
Actually since Shadow monks can cast spells they qualify for the eldritch invocation feat.
Its not actually the required component unfortunately
Prerequisite: Spellcasting or Pact Magic feature
Shadow Arts
Starting when you choose this tradition at 3rd level, you can use your ki to duplicate the effects of certain spells. As an action, you can spend 2 ki points to cast darkness, darkvision, pass without trace, or silence, without providing material components. Additionally, you gain the minor illusion cantrip if you don’t already know it.
Since shadow arts is not explicitly called Spellcasting or Pact Magic then it does not qualify.
Belief behind the monastic Traditions that monks draw from held that if you got enlightened enough and far along in your training that All monks would eventually do such things like Astral Projection. Not that you actually ever have to use Astral Projection. (honestly I've used it less than some of the ribbon abilities when you consider all the monks i've played myself).
But as you pointed out. Not everybody is always going to get to the same level of Training. Even the character you play is not guaranteed to get to 20. We like to believe they will but many factors could stop that. Campaigns ending before that point. Which the end of a campaign is often a particular characters retirment point. Which means they could be 12 or 13. They could be considered Quite Skilled or even masters of a sort at that point. Even though they are 7 levels below max and a lot of abilities they didn't get. But they are still well advanced past the typical people and the many initiates that never make it to mastery.
Level of Training often is more the difference between what martial artists can do than Just the martial arts they practice. Most true Masters knew not only their style. But to some extent the styles of their competitors, allies, and enemies. Sometimes they would even incorporate some of that knowledge into advanced maneuvers they would use. A fight between two Masters, Unless they were doing something that limited them, would often use Multiple Styles to a high degree throughout a fight. On Top of that there were some disciplines and practices that transcended a singular type of fighting and were basically universal techniques. With some of those universal Techniques not necessarily being something that could be mastered by just any initiate.
As for the Long Death. Your talking about the Fluff for a particular setting. Where the Long Death Primarily exists when you talk about being forced to be evil. But here's the thing. Even in that setting they are not necessarily forced to be evil. There are ethical ways to study death and the way people die an the "mystical energies" around it. So that Fluff that your having hang ups with can be changed. Both in that setting but more importantly outside of that setting. It is just as possible to understand death through doing things like tending to the terminally ill as it is to torture creatures and many people tend to forget things like that.
Dnd beyond disagree with you because not too long ago they changed it to be possible, and it wasn’t possible 1-2 months ago
Then D&D Beyond is wrong RAW. It specifically states the Spellcasting or Pact Magic feature, which is only available to some classes and subclasses. This is the Shadow Arts feature, which is unique to Way of the Shadow monks.
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews! Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
DDB gets things wrong. It's not some perfect indicator of what works and what doesn't. It's completely possible that it's working is a bug as they fixed something else that should work but doesn't still. Or a bug they had to introduce to make something work.
Though there is a small possibility there is an errata change to the wording of the feat gaining invocations that we're not aware of yet. But the last one is the least likely possibility. I only state it for completeness because I don't have the time to be sure it isn't the case right now and somebody else might have the inspiration to go check instead by seeing it listed.
Yeah I checked, I don't think it checks for prerequisites for feats at all
Fateless comment about how the way of the long death doesn't have to be evil and killing people in different ways actually makes sense and makes me revalue the subclass even more. It really does open up for some kinda plague-monk style of character/order which takes care of people who have gotten ill. That they report their findings afterwards isn't that peculiar to be honest. And to be fair, who else better to take care of plague victims than someone immune to it?
This is actually really cool. Thanks.
Your quite welcome. glad I could help. There are a couple subclasses that kind of lean into that idea in different ways.
If we're giving testimonials on playing the monk to suggest it to other players I am currently playing a Level 8 Kalashtar Sun Soul Monk and I am enjoying it quite a bit. Before I continue though, if you are looking to do giant burst damage like say a Paladin then I will straight up tell you this class is not for you. The Sun Soul subtype is both flavorful and useful in that most features don't actually require ki points to use only to enhance them, and in early gameplay the monk can feel very ki starved.
In my opinion the best part of a Monk is that they never feel like they have a wasted action. There has been several times where our group have been in a dungeon and the rest of the party are struggling to be in the right place to be effective. Either the Fighter running to get into range to strike with his greatsword or the Cleric and Artificer trying to find a place where they can take defensible positions. With the aid of Step of the Wind you are where you need to be most of the time. Or if you're choosing to disengage, away from where you don't want to be.
Building your character to support your playstyle does come with playing a Monk. Other classes do have an advantage in this respect as they often railroad you to how the class was intended to play. For example, my Monk has picked up the Fey Touched feat to have access to Misty Step and Hex once per long rest. In almost every general encounter I found he is fine as is, but I found that in boss encounters I wanted to increase my presence and Hex has done wonders for that. Seeing as it pairs nicely with Radiant Sun Bolt I can skirmish around the boss fight at mid range doing 4 attacks at 2d6 + my Dexterity in damage per round with 1 ki point.
Personally, the things left to be desired are mostly that the game itself seems like it wasn't made to support the class like editions before it. Especially in terms of magic items tailored for the class. This however, with an agreeable DM, can be rectified with a little creative collaboration. Granted if the setting of the campaign allows it. We are currently playing Curse of Strahd, so very scarce magic items let alone a tailored one, but such is my fate lol.
In conclusion, with the class's enhanced mobility and variety of features the class feels useful almost every round. The mobility and lack of need for much in terms of inventory also make the class useful for exploration. Plus nothing feels quite as satisfying as landing a successful stunning strike so that you can watch on as the rest of the party pummel the creature into oblivion.
DDB also does not allow you to change out clockwork soul or aberrant mind sorcerer additional spells. Does that mean that’s no longer possible per the rules? No, it’s just a limit on what DDB character builder is capable of doing. DDB is not RAW and there are flaws and errors.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Monks could have been made to do more, and doing so in better step with their subclass themes. I think there was an overcorrection in making sure they couldn't outshine other classes with their versatility.
A good comparison might be to the Paladin. While the Paladin excels at most things a melee based class wants to do all the time, the monk has to choose which category to excel at in a given turn, and at the cost of resources for whatever they choose. Hence why Paladins feel broken and monks feel a little anemic outside of one or two levels where they really shine.
Thank you for this forum it was helpful
[roll]7d6[/roll]
Every post these dice roll increasing my chances of winning the yahtzee thread (I wish (wait not the twist the wish threa-!))
Drummer Generated Title
After having been invited to include both here, I now combine the "PM me CHEESE 🧀 and tomato into PM me "PIZZA🍕"
They had a chance, they REALLY had a chance in Fizbans....and they still fluffed it up!