Free because it doesn't cost anything extra and you get something extra.
wrong and wrong.
This doesn't make any sense. For no additional cost, you get the opportunity to heal yourself or another creature instead of making an attack. I guess if you want to, you could say it "costs" you 1 unarmed strike.
What the Mercy Monk does is give you versatility to either hit something 4 times, or hit something 3 times and heal yourself or another creature, all for 1 ki point. You do not have to pay any extra ki, or hit dice, or even expend an extra action of any sort to perform this heal. All you have to do is decide to attack one less time. Considering that the "full" use of the ability is to spend your entire action and a ki point, having the option to replace one attack (not both) with a heal for no extra ki cost all while maintaining your full action to Attack is a BARGAIN.
This is still a much smaller cost than having to either 1) Spend extra ki points for a subclass ability or 2) Have to give up your full action or bonus action to use the subclass ability.
So yes, Fateless, it does have a cost of a single bonus action unarmed strike. But, because the ability synergies so well with the monk's base kit, it does not require any extra ki AND it doesn't prevent you from still acquiring 3 attacks per turn on a regular basis.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews!Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
Free because it doesn't cost anything extra and you get something extra.
wrong and wrong.
This doesn't make any sense. For no additional cost, you get the opportunity to heal yourself or another creature instead of making an attack. I guess if you want to, you could say it "costs" you 1 unarmed strike.
What the Mercy Monk does is give you versatility to either hit something 4 times, or hit something 3 times and heal yourself or another creature, all for 1 ki point. You do not have to pay any extra ki, or hit dice, or even expend an extra action of any sort to perform this heal. All you have to do is decide to attack one less time. Considering that the "full" use of the ability is to spend your entire action and a ki point, having the option to replace one attack (not both) with a heal for no extra ki cost all while maintaining your full action to Attack is a BARGAIN.
This is still a much smaller cost than having to either 1) Spend extra ki points for a subclass ability or 2) Have to give up your full action or bonus action to use the subclass ability.
So yes, Fateless, it does have a cost of a single bonus action unarmed strike. But, because the ability synergies so well with the monk's base kit, it does not require any extra ki AND it doesn't prevent you from still acquiring 3 attacks per turn on a regular basis.
I think Fateless' point is that Way of Mercy's feature is "free" only in the sense that it's a free upgrade to Flurry of Blows, but that means that it's only "free" when Flurry of Blows is what you want to do. If you're in a situation where you want to use Patient Defence instead then you have to spend the Ki point to use it without Flurry of Blows (on top of the Ki point for Patient Defence), in which case its absolutely not free at all.
But really all of you are quibbling over nothing 😝
I actually think the OP's fix is a decent one; it's tough to say if an extra four "Chakra" points is enough, I might be inclined to go for five and front load them a little bit more (maybe give two to start with?) since a lot of the Four Elements abilities have high(-ish) base costs so you're finding it most difficult to conserve Ki at the earlier levels when even using the lowest level burns through your Ki really quickly.
That said, I do wish Monk as a class had been given a generic "discount if already using Ki" feature on all/most of its Ki-powered bonus actions, so you could for example use Step of the Wind then use Fangs of the Fire Snake "for free" during your action. That might be a tad OP, as it would save a lot of Ki with the way things are currently structured, not sure though.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
I think Fateless' point is that Way of Mercy's feature is "free" only in the sense that it's a free upgrade to Flurry of Blows, but that means that it's only "free" when Flurry of Blows is what you want to do. If you're in a situation where you want to use Patient Defence instead then you have to spend the Ki point to use it without Flurry of Blows (on top of the Ki point for Patient Defence), in which case its absolutely not free at all.
But really all of you are quibbling over nothing 😝
I actually think the OP's fix is a decent one; it's tough to say if an extra four "Chakra" points is enough, I might be inclined to go for five and front load them a little bit more (maybe give two to start with?) since a lot of the Four Elements abilities have high(-ish) base costs so you're finding it most difficult to conserve Ki at the earlier levels when even using the base ability burns through your Ki really quickly.
That said, I do wish Monk as a class had been given a generic "discount if already using Ki" feature on all/most of its Ki-powered bonus actions, so you could for example use Step of the Wind then use Fangs of the Fire Snake "for free" during your action. That might be a tad OP, as it would save a lot of Ki with the way things are currently structured, not sure though.
Yeah I think letting subclass features be used during normal monk stuff is the way to go honestly
Or what Tasha's did allowing the monk to make a bonus action weapon attack if you spent ki on your action.
Overall some PB uses of the 4element stuff would go a long way
Nice to see my dumb ass got a bit of traction whew
Thanks you Haravikk, it means a lot.
Ive had a bit of time to think about it, and I realized that my idea at the time was pretty abusable. I also realized yesterday that I may have misunderstood OptimusGrimus' point. An additional resource pool seems unnecessary if it only has very limited use and doesnt add variety.
I think this might better capture what I wanted out of a fix:
Attuned Chakra
At 3rd level, your internal body more readily ebbs and flows with the stream of ki within you. Once per long rest, when you expend ki to use an elemental discipline, you can reduce its ki point cost by 1 ki point. You gain an additional use of this feature when you reach 6th, 11th, and 17th level.
This might be a step down from what I originally proposed, but I believe this balances it out at higher levels. Elemental Chakra at mid levels would have made it so that you were basically a sorcerer. Flying for free is fun, but I feel like it just gives one too much fun.
A limited ki point discount ensures that it isnt as drastic as providing a free spell, and yet still encourages lower level players to use ki points more often.
I actually think the OP's fix is a decent one; it's tough to say if an extra four "Chakra" points is enough, I might be inclined to go for five and front load them a little bit more (maybe give two to start with?) since a lot of the Four Elements abilities have high(-ish) base costs so you're finding it most difficult to conserve Ki at the earlier levels when even using the lowest level burns through your Ki really quickly.
Unfortunately my original idea couldnt account for higher levels. (I wrote the first post at 2am). I just got to really disagree with more ki saving options, as monks already do a lot of cool stuff outside their subclasses in my opinion, and stunning strikes only cost a ki each
I think Fateless' point is that Way of Mercy's feature is "free" only in the sense that it's a free upgrade to Flurry of Blows, but that means that it's only "free" when Flurry of Blows is what you want to do. If you're in a situation where you want to use Patient Defence instead then you have to spend the Ki point to use it without Flurry of Blows (on top of the Ki point for Patient Defence), in which case its absolutely not free at all.
But really all of you are quibbling over nothing 😝
Actually, Fateless's point is that it isn't free ever. If you spend 1 ki for flurry, you would get two attacks as a bonus action, if you use hand of healing, you only get your normal one attack.
I think Fateless' point is that Way of Mercy's feature is "free" only in the sense that it's a free upgrade to Flurry of Blows, but that means that it's only "free" when Flurry of Blows is what you want to do. If you're in a situation where you want to use Patient Defence instead then you have to spend the Ki point to use it without Flurry of Blows (on top of the Ki point for Patient Defence), in which case its absolutely not free at all.
But really all of you are quibbling over nothing 😝
Actually, Fateless's point is that it isn't free ever. If you spend 1 ki for flurry, you would get two attacks as a bonus action, if you use hand of healing, you only get your normal one attack.
But you get something you would normally have to pay another ki for.
Monks already get one unarmed punch for free.
This is getting that plus something else so it's free.
But you get something you would normally have to pay another ki for.
Monks already get one unarmed punch for free.
This is getting that plus something else so it's free.
When you only use martial arts you can make 2 (or 3, from 5th level) attacks at zero Ki cost. When you use Flurry of Blows you can make 3 (or 4) attacks at a cost of 1 Ki. When you use Hand of Healing with a Furry of Blows, you make 2 (or 3) attacks and heal at a cost of 1 Ki. In other words you do the same thing you can do for zero cost, but pay 1 Ki to do something extra, so that's not free; if it were a bonus on top of a full Flurry of Blows then it would be, but because you're trading for one of the attacks it's very much not free.
The closest to a free feature Way of Mercy has is Hand of Harm once you have Flurry of Healing and Harm; as you get that on top of a full flurry for no extra cost, but it's still locking you into having to do the flurry, which costs Ki.
It's also still really off-topic; even if the argument you want to make is that Way of the Four Elements should function a bit more like Way of Mercy, then only talking about Way of Mercy definitely isn't relevant here.
I think this might better capture what I wanted out of a fix:
Attuned Chakra
At 3rd level, your internal body more readily ebbs and flows with the stream of ki within you. Once per long rest, when you expend ki to use an elemental discipline, you can reduce its ki point cost by 1 ki point. You gain an additional use of this feature when you reach 6th, 11th, and 17th level.
This actually doesn't seem that different to me; saving 1 Ki point still means you have more Ki to spend in total, you're just doing it by a slightly different mechanism, though I guess if you can only do it once per discipline then it affects the more costly abilities differently (can't put all four uses towards a free fireball, as it needs to be four separate discipline uses). Personally I don't think there's any balance issue either way, as you've already restricted this to elemental disciplines only, so it doesn't allow Way of the Four Elements to do more stunning strikes than any other Monk sub-class, it just lets them do the exact same amount, but also use some of their unique abilities on top of that, like every other sub-class gets to (either up front or later). This probably is a slightly better form though, as it encourages using more disciplines over the course of a single day.
I do still wonder if it makes sense to front-load it a little more, i.e- two uses from 3rd level for five total; if you think about it in terms of what an Open Palm Monk can do, they can use Flurry of Blows three times, and gain the benefit of their sub-class on top of that every single time. With your change, a Four Elements Monk can also Flurry of Blows three times, and also use Fangs of the Fire Snake once per long rest on top of that, but I'm just wondering if that's enough? It's tough to say though, as you're comparing to things like the Kensei being able to get +2 AC or +d4 ranged damage every turn (and they don't even have to spend Ki to do that), and need to somehow factor in the small boost Four Elements got thanks to Ki-fuelled Attack, as they're a class that can make solid use of that. Sorry, still thinking out loud on that one as I'm not sure what the answer is 😉
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
"The truly free feature Way of Mercy is Hand of Harm once you have Flurry of Healing and Harm; as you get that on top of a full Flurry of Blows for no extra cost."
Yeah this was the one I was referring to. I like how they are incorporating this more into the new subclasses.
I intended to factor in Ki-fuelled Attack because i think it really helps the 4 elements monk a lot more than other subclasses (except astral self monk of course, for the extra time stop muda).
It just seems pretty solid, considering its a 50% discount on a 1st level aoe, a 2nd level control spell, a water whip, and an air bullet. And theres a free use of a fire punch and raising a tidal wave. They even get a decent cantrip. Then again, I was also trying to consider the later levels. Starting with two does seem better since my goal is encouraging using elemental disciplines early and more often.
I just think early levels dont have to so exciting because 4E gets access to Shatter and Fireball at mid level. Ranged AoEs are just things you cant scoff at.
You can cast fireball at 11th level spending 4 of 11 ki points to do so.
At 11th level for a full caster you are now getting 6th level spells.
A wizard could cast Chain lighting hitting up to 4 targets for 10d8 lightning damage apiece.
While I agree fireball is a good spell the full casters have had this spell since level 5....and likely have spells that will either outpace it or make it not really needed.
Now if you are in a party with no casters other than yourself the 4E monk then I think this is not a bad deal...but even 1 full caster in the group and its basically redundant....especially when you could use that ki to completely stun something or somethings out of the fight.
You shouldn't compare a Four Elements Monk to a full caster; their spell level progression is somewhere between third casters (Arcane Trickster/Eldritch Knight) and half casters (Artificer/Paladin/Ranger), except that unlike those they don't have a separate casting resource, though the resource they do use does refresh on a short rest (more like a Warlock).
This is what makes changes to them so tricky to balance; in some ways Monks are a little bit like casters already (a bunch of abilities you can switch between as required with a resource to fuel them), but Four Elements takes that a whole lot further into proper spells and spell-like effects.
Sure, a dedicated sorcerer or wizard will be throwing out much nastier stuff at the same level, but when they run out of spell slots or run into an antimagic field, they don't have Monk features to fall back on. Besides, a 3rd level fireball at 11th might not be as nasty, but it still hurts, especially against hordes of enemies (you can only stunning strike so many in a turn).
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
You shouldn't compare a Four Elements Monk to a full caster; their spell level progression is somewhere between third casters (Arcane Trickster/Eldritch Knight) and half casters (Artificer/Paladin/Ranger), except that unlike those they don't have a separate casting resource, though the resource they do use does refresh on a short rest (more like a Warlock).
This is what makes changes to them so tricky to balance; in some ways Monks are a little bit like casters already (a bunch of abilities you can switch between as required with a resource to fuel them), but Four Elements takes that a whole lot further into proper spells and spell-like effects.
Sure, a dedicated sorcerer or wizard will be throwing out much nastier stuff at the same level, but when they run out of spell slots or run into an antimagic field, they don't have Monk features to fall back on. Besides, a 3rd level fireball at 11th might not be as nasty, but it still hurts, especially against hordes of enemies (you can only stunning strike so many in a turn).
I guess I am just saying that having fireball at 11th level isn't really as great as it sounds and having something that is a buff like Fly or Gaseous Form or area control like Wall of Fire is likely the better choice IMO. Or taking all the Monk specific options is generally better as well.
You shouldn't compare a Four Elements Monk to a full caster; their spell level progression is somewhere between third casters (Arcane Trickster/Eldritch Knight) and half casters (Artificer/Paladin/Ranger), except that unlike those they don't have a separate casting resource, though the resource they do use does refresh on a short rest (more like a Warlock).
This is what makes changes to them so tricky to balance; in some ways Monks are a little bit like casters already (a bunch of abilities you can switch between as required with a resource to fuel them), but Four Elements takes that a whole lot further into proper spells and spell-like effects.
Sure, a dedicated sorcerer or wizard will be throwing out much nastier stuff at the same level, but when they run out of spell slots or run into an antimagic field, they don't have Monk features to fall back on. Besides, a 3rd level fireball at 11th might not be as nasty, but it still hurts, especially against hordes of enemies (you can only stunning strike so many in a turn).
I guess I am just saying that having fireball at 11th level isn't really as great as it sounds and having something that is a buff like Fly or Gaseous Form or area control like Wall of Fire is likely the better choice IMO. Or taking all the Monk specific options is generally better as well.
Fireball would likely be my last option.
Fireball at level 11 is not as bad as it sounds either. Part of this thta people ignore is thta to some real extent the Full Casters are still relying on their 3rd level spell slots. At 11th level they barely have 5th level spell slots and they can't make do with just 5 or 6 spell slots for the entire day. So they do a lot of relying on things like third level fireballs for various reasons. And now this partial caster can now do those same fireballs at a level where they are still at least partially relevant to the full casters.
You shouldn't compare a Four Elements Monk to a full caster; their spell level progression is somewhere between third casters (Arcane Trickster/Eldritch Knight) and half casters (Artificer/Paladin/Ranger), except that unlike those they don't have a separate casting resource, though the resource they do use does refresh on a short rest (more like a Warlock).
This is what makes changes to them so tricky to balance; in some ways Monks are a little bit like casters already (a bunch of abilities you can switch between as required with a resource to fuel them), but Four Elements takes that a whole lot further into proper spells and spell-like effects.
Sure, a dedicated sorcerer or wizard will be throwing out much nastier stuff at the same level, but when they run out of spell slots or run into an antimagic field, they don't have Monk features to fall back on. Besides, a 3rd level fireball at 11th might not be as nasty, but it still hurts, especially against hordes of enemies (you can only stunning strike so many in a turn).
I guess I am just saying that having fireball at 11th level isn't really as great as it sounds and having something that is a buff like Fly or Gaseous Form or area control like Wall of Fire is likely the better choice IMO. Or taking all the Monk specific options is generally better as well.
Fireball would likely be my last option.
Fireball at level 11 is not as bad as it sounds either. Part of this thta people ignore is thta to some real extent the Full Casters are still relying on their 3rd level spell slots. At 11th level they barely have 5th level spell slots and they can't make do with just 5 or 6 spell slots for the entire day. So they do a lot of relying on things like third level fireballs for various reasons. And now this partial caster can now do those same fireballs at a level where they are still at least partially relevant to the full casters.
They not only have two 5th level slots but a 6th level too.
So they can cast 9 fireballs a day (11 for wizards).
If you assume 2 SR per day then the monk can cast 6.
But that's just assuming that you want to use all ki on fireballs which you likely won't ... So let's say about 4 per day.
Even then the full casters are throughly out AoE you with out much effort.
If you use the monk specific disciplines you are at least doing something that they cannot do and thus adding to overall versatility.
If you use the monk specific disciplines you are at least doing something that they cannot do and thus adding to overall versatility.
The problems you're describing are more of a general issue with party mix; you'll run into the exact same problem with any other casters if they take too many of the same spells.
Even so, it doesn't matter if another caster can out AoE you; firstly, your party may not include one at all (or one focusing on AoE damage), and second you doing less AoE damage isn't equal to being less valuable a party member.
It feels like you're focusing on Fireball too much specifically; personally I'd lean more towards the shorter ranged options like Burning Hands and Thunderwave, as unlike full casters a Four Elements Monk is also a Monk, so is more than capable of handling themselves at close to short range, especially since you stack casting with a free punch (Ki-fuelled Attack) or Patient Defence or whatever to be a short range AoE roadblock. Having access to Fireball is useful, but as with most casters if you have other melee fighters in your party you'll rarely get to use it past the first round anyway, Burning Hands/Thunderwave etc. are a bit easier to target once the fighting gets up close and personal.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
If you use the monk specific disciplines you are at least doing something that they cannot do and thus adding to overall versatility.
The problems you're describing are more of a general issue with party mix; you'll run into the exact same problem with any other casters if they take too many of the same spells.
Even so, it doesn't matter if another caster can out AoE you; firstly, your party may not include one at all (or one focusing on AoE damage), and second you doing less AoE damage isn't equal to being less valuable a party member.
It feels like you're focusing on Fireball too much specifically; personally I'd lean more towards the shorter ranged options like Burning Hands and Thunderwave, as unlike full casters a Four Elements Monk is also a Monk, so is more than capable of handling themselves at close to short range, especially since you stack casting with a free punch (Ki-fuelled Attack) or Patient Defence or whatever to be a short range AoE roadblock. Having access to Fireball is useful, but as with most casters if you have other melee fighters in your party you'll rarely get to use it past the first round anyway, Burning Hands/Thunderwave are a bit easier to target once the fighting gets up close and personal.
Agreed... Those do make more sense for monk and you can get them earlier as well
You shouldn't compare a Four Elements Monk to a full caster; their spell level progression is somewhere between third casters (Arcane Trickster/Eldritch Knight) and half casters (Artificer/Paladin/Ranger), except that unlike those they don't have a separate casting resource, though the resource they do use does refresh on a short rest (more like a Warlock).
This is what makes changes to them so tricky to balance; in some ways Monks are a little bit like casters already (a bunch of abilities you can switch between as required with a resource to fuel them), but Four Elements takes that a whole lot further into proper spells and spell-like effects.
Sure, a dedicated sorcerer or wizard will be throwing out much nastier stuff at the same level, but when they run out of spell slots or run into an antimagic field, they don't have Monk features to fall back on. Besides, a 3rd level fireball at 11th might not be as nasty, but it still hurts, especially against hordes of enemies (you can only stunning strike so many in a turn).
I guess I am just saying that having fireball at 11th level isn't really as great as it sounds and having something that is a buff like Fly or Gaseous Form or area control like Wall of Fire is likely the better choice IMO. Or taking all the Monk specific options is generally better as well.
Fireball would likely be my last option.
Fireball at level 11 is not as bad as it sounds either. Part of this thta people ignore is thta to some real extent the Full Casters are still relying on their 3rd level spell slots. At 11th level they barely have 5th level spell slots and they can't make do with just 5 or 6 spell slots for the entire day. So they do a lot of relying on things like third level fireballs for various reasons. And now this partial caster can now do those same fireballs at a level where they are still at least partially relevant to the full casters.
They not only have two 5th level slots but a 6th level too.
So they can cast 9 fireballs a day (11 for wizards).
If you assume 2 SR per day then the monk can cast 6.
But that's just assuming that you want to use all ki on fireballs which you likely won't ... So let's say about 4 per day.
Even then the full casters are throughly out AoE you with out much effort.
If you use the monk specific disciplines you are at least doing something that they cannot do and thus adding to overall versatility.
Actually you could still do 6 and do other things as well. Your ignoring the 3 ki that can't be used on fireballs per each rest. Assuming you want to maximize your fireballs and do something else you have 9 ki to do so over the course of the day.
And a level later if all the 4 elements monk wanted to do is fireballs they suddenly go up to 9 that they can do a day. Or they can do the 6 from before and still spend 12 ki on other things that they want to do with their Ki assuming 2 rests.
but it sounds so much more impressive stacking 9 fireballs. Despite the fact that fireballs, even when overpowered, aren't necessarily the best spells that the Full Casters would have. And even with those better spells they are still relying to some extent on things like fireballs from their third level spells. That hasn't changed despite comparing the numbers of castings. Which means the 4 elements monk using a tool that the full caster is still somewhat using still applies.
And that's all assuming what should be the dead obvious fact that this assumes that battles are repeatedly set up that fireballs are the optimal choice to use. So there may be even less fireballs out of the mage than the 9 spell slots that they have and the monk still has Ki points to do single target things if they wish to and can always decide to do one less fireball to get even more points to do those single target and even non-magical things if they wish.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
So it's not free because you get it for no cost?
This doesn't make any sense. For no additional cost, you get the opportunity to heal yourself or another creature instead of making an attack. I guess if you want to, you could say it "costs" you 1 unarmed strike.
What the Mercy Monk does is give you versatility to either hit something 4 times, or hit something 3 times and heal yourself or another creature, all for 1 ki point. You do not have to pay any extra ki, or hit dice, or even expend an extra action of any sort to perform this heal. All you have to do is decide to attack one less time. Considering that the "full" use of the ability is to spend your entire action and a ki point, having the option to replace one attack (not both) with a heal for no extra ki cost all while maintaining your full action to Attack is a BARGAIN.
This is still a much smaller cost than having to either 1) Spend extra ki points for a subclass ability or 2) Have to give up your full action or bonus action to use the subclass ability.
So yes, Fateless, it does have a cost of a single bonus action unarmed strike. But, because the ability synergies so well with the monk's base kit, it does not require any extra ki AND it doesn't prevent you from still acquiring 3 attacks per turn on a regular basis.
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews! Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
agreed
I think Fateless' point is that Way of Mercy's feature is "free" only in the sense that it's a free upgrade to Flurry of Blows, but that means that it's only "free" when Flurry of Blows is what you want to do. If you're in a situation where you want to use Patient Defence instead then you have to spend the Ki point to use it without Flurry of Blows (on top of the Ki point for Patient Defence), in which case its absolutely not free at all.
But really all of you are quibbling over nothing 😝
I actually think the OP's fix is a decent one; it's tough to say if an extra four "Chakra" points is enough, I might be inclined to go for five and front load them a little bit more (maybe give two to start with?) since a lot of the Four Elements abilities have high(-ish) base costs so you're finding it most difficult to conserve Ki at the earlier levels when even using the lowest level burns through your Ki really quickly.
That said, I do wish Monk as a class had been given a generic "discount if already using Ki" feature on all/most of its Ki-powered bonus actions, so you could for example use Step of the Wind then use Fangs of the Fire Snake "for free" during your action. That might be a tad OP, as it would save a lot of Ki with the way things are currently structured, not sure though.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Yeah I think letting subclass features be used during normal monk stuff is the way to go honestly
Or what Tasha's did allowing the monk to make a bonus action weapon attack if you spent ki on your action.
Overall some PB uses of the 4element stuff would go a long way
Nice to see my dumb ass got a bit of traction whew
Thanks you Haravikk, it means a lot.
Ive had a bit of time to think about it, and I realized that my idea at the time was pretty abusable. I also realized yesterday that I may have misunderstood OptimusGrimus' point. An additional resource pool seems unnecessary if it only has very limited use and doesnt add variety.
I think this might better capture what I wanted out of a fix:
This might be a step down from what I originally proposed, but I believe this balances it out at higher levels. Elemental Chakra at mid levels would have made it so that you were basically a sorcerer. Flying for free is fun, but I feel like it just gives one too much fun.
A limited ki point discount ensures that it isnt as drastic as providing a free spell, and yet still encourages lower level players to use ki points more often.
I feel like I should submit this as a Homebrew :0
Unfortunately my original idea couldnt account for higher levels. (I wrote the first post at 2am). I just got to really disagree with more ki saving options, as monks already do a lot of cool stuff outside their subclasses in my opinion, and stunning strikes only cost a ki each
Actually, Fateless's point is that it isn't free ever. If you spend 1 ki for flurry, you would get two attacks as a bonus action, if you use hand of healing, you only get your normal one attack.
But you get something you would normally have to pay another ki for.
Monks already get one unarmed punch for free.
This is getting that plus something else so it's free.
When you only use martial arts you can make 2 (or 3, from 5th level) attacks at zero Ki cost.
When you use Flurry of Blows you can make 3 (or 4) attacks at a cost of 1 Ki.
When you use Hand of Healing with a Furry of Blows, you make 2 (or 3) attacks and heal at a cost of 1 Ki. In other words you do the same thing you can do for zero cost, but pay 1 Ki to do something extra, so that's not free; if it were a bonus on top of a full Flurry of Blows then it would be, but because you're trading for one of the attacks it's very much not free.
The closest to a free feature Way of Mercy has is Hand of Harm once you have Flurry of Healing and Harm; as you get that on top of a full flurry for no extra cost, but it's still locking you into having to do the flurry, which costs Ki.
It's also still really off-topic; even if the argument you want to make is that Way of the Four Elements should function a bit more like Way of Mercy, then only talking about Way of Mercy definitely isn't relevant here.
This actually doesn't seem that different to me; saving 1 Ki point still means you have more Ki to spend in total, you're just doing it by a slightly different mechanism, though I guess if you can only do it once per discipline then it affects the more costly abilities differently (can't put all four uses towards a free fireball, as it needs to be four separate discipline uses). Personally I don't think there's any balance issue either way, as you've already restricted this to elemental disciplines only, so it doesn't allow Way of the Four Elements to do more stunning strikes than any other Monk sub-class, it just lets them do the exact same amount, but also use some of their unique abilities on top of that, like every other sub-class gets to (either up front or later). This probably is a slightly better form though, as it encourages using more disciplines over the course of a single day.
I do still wonder if it makes sense to front-load it a little more, i.e- two uses from 3rd level for five total; if you think about it in terms of what an Open Palm Monk can do, they can use Flurry of Blows three times, and gain the benefit of their sub-class on top of that every single time. With your change, a Four Elements Monk can also Flurry of Blows three times, and also use Fangs of the Fire Snake once per long rest on top of that, but I'm just wondering if that's enough? It's tough to say though, as you're comparing to things like the Kensei being able to get +2 AC or +d4 ranged damage every turn (and they don't even have to spend Ki to do that), and need to somehow factor in the small boost Four Elements got thanks to Ki-fuelled Attack, as they're a class that can make solid use of that. Sorry, still thinking out loud on that one as I'm not sure what the answer is 😉
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
"The truly free feature Way of Mercy is Hand of Harm once you have Flurry of Healing and Harm; as you get that on top of a full Flurry of Blows for no extra cost."
Yeah this was the one I was referring to. I like how they are incorporating this more into the new subclasses.
I intended to factor in Ki-fuelled Attack because i think it really helps the 4 elements monk a lot more than other subclasses (except astral self monk of course, for the extra time stop muda).
It just seems pretty solid, considering its a 50% discount on a 1st level aoe, a 2nd level control spell, a water whip, and an air bullet. And theres a free use of a fire punch and raising a tidal wave. They even get a decent cantrip. Then again, I was also trying to consider the later levels. Starting with two does seem better since my goal is encouraging using elemental disciplines early and more often.
I just think early levels dont have to so exciting because 4E gets access to Shatter and Fireball at mid level. Ranged AoEs are just things you cant scoff at.
You can cast fireball at 11th level spending 4 of 11 ki points to do so.
At 11th level for a full caster you are now getting 6th level spells.
A wizard could cast Chain lighting hitting up to 4 targets for 10d8 lightning damage apiece.
While I agree fireball is a good spell the full casters have had this spell since level 5....and likely have spells that will either outpace it or make it not really needed.
Now if you are in a party with no casters other than yourself the 4E monk then I think this is not a bad deal...but even 1 full caster in the group and its basically redundant....especially when you could use that ki to completely stun something or somethings out of the fight.
You shouldn't compare a Four Elements Monk to a full caster; their spell level progression is somewhere between third casters (Arcane Trickster/Eldritch Knight) and half casters (Artificer/Paladin/Ranger), except that unlike those they don't have a separate casting resource, though the resource they do use does refresh on a short rest (more like a Warlock).
This is what makes changes to them so tricky to balance; in some ways Monks are a little bit like casters already (a bunch of abilities you can switch between as required with a resource to fuel them), but Four Elements takes that a whole lot further into proper spells and spell-like effects.
Sure, a dedicated sorcerer or wizard will be throwing out much nastier stuff at the same level, but when they run out of spell slots or run into an antimagic field, they don't have Monk features to fall back on. Besides, a 3rd level fireball at 11th might not be as nasty, but it still hurts, especially against hordes of enemies (you can only stunning strike so many in a turn).
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
I guess I am just saying that having fireball at 11th level isn't really as great as it sounds and having something that is a buff like Fly or Gaseous Form or area control like Wall of Fire is likely the better choice IMO. Or taking all the Monk specific options is generally better as well.
Fireball would likely be my last option.
Fireball at level 11 is not as bad as it sounds either. Part of this thta people ignore is thta to some real extent the Full Casters are still relying on their 3rd level spell slots. At 11th level they barely have 5th level spell slots and they can't make do with just 5 or 6 spell slots for the entire day. So they do a lot of relying on things like third level fireballs for various reasons. And now this partial caster can now do those same fireballs at a level where they are still at least partially relevant to the full casters.
They not only have two 5th level slots but a 6th level too.
So they can cast 9 fireballs a day (11 for wizards).
If you assume 2 SR per day then the monk can cast 6.
But that's just assuming that you want to use all ki on fireballs which you likely won't ... So let's say about 4 per day.
Even then the full casters are throughly out AoE you with out much effort.
If you use the monk specific disciplines you are at least doing something that they cannot do and thus adding to overall versatility.
The problems you're describing are more of a general issue with party mix; you'll run into the exact same problem with any other casters if they take too many of the same spells.
Even so, it doesn't matter if another caster can out AoE you; firstly, your party may not include one at all (or one focusing on AoE damage), and second you doing less AoE damage isn't equal to being less valuable a party member.
It feels like you're focusing on Fireball too much specifically; personally I'd lean more towards the shorter ranged options like Burning Hands and Thunderwave, as unlike full casters a Four Elements Monk is also a Monk, so is more than capable of handling themselves at close to short range, especially since you stack casting with a free punch (Ki-fuelled Attack) or Patient Defence or whatever to be a short range AoE roadblock. Having access to Fireball is useful, but as with most casters if you have other melee fighters in your party you'll rarely get to use it past the first round anyway, Burning Hands/Thunderwave etc. are a bit easier to target once the fighting gets up close and personal.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Agreed... Those do make more sense for monk and you can get them earlier as well
Actually you could still do 6 and do other things as well. Your ignoring the 3 ki that can't be used on fireballs per each rest. Assuming you want to maximize your fireballs and do something else you have 9 ki to do so over the course of the day.
And a level later if all the 4 elements monk wanted to do is fireballs they suddenly go up to 9 that they can do a day. Or they can do the 6 from before and still spend 12 ki on other things that they want to do with their Ki assuming 2 rests.
but it sounds so much more impressive stacking 9 fireballs. Despite the fact that fireballs, even when overpowered, aren't necessarily the best spells that the Full Casters would have. And even with those better spells they are still relying to some extent on things like fireballs from their third level spells. That hasn't changed despite comparing the numbers of castings. Which means the 4 elements monk using a tool that the full caster is still somewhat using still applies.
And that's all assuming what should be the dead obvious fact that this assumes that battles are repeatedly set up that fireballs are the optimal choice to use. So there may be even less fireballs out of the mage than the 9 spell slots that they have and the monk still has Ki points to do single target things if they wish to and can always decide to do one less fireball to get even more points to do those single target and even non-magical things if they wish.