You shouldn't compare a Four Elements Monk to a full caster; their spell level progression is somewhere between third casters (Arcane Trickster/Eldritch Knight) and half casters (Artificer/Paladin/Ranger), except that unlike those they don't have a separate casting resource, though the resource they do use does refresh on a short rest (more like a Warlock).
This is what makes changes to them so tricky to balance; in some ways Monks are a little bit like casters already (a bunch of abilities you can switch between as required with a resource to fuel them), but Four Elements takes that a whole lot further into proper spells and spell-like effects.
Sure, a dedicated sorcerer or wizard will be throwing out much nastier stuff at the same level, but when they run out of spell slots or run into an antimagic field, they don't have Monk features to fall back on. Besides, a 3rd level fireball at 11th might not be as nasty, but it still hurts, especially against hordes of enemies (you can only stunning strike so many in a turn).
I guess I am just saying that having fireball at 11th level isn't really as great as it sounds and having something that is a buff like Fly or Gaseous Form or area control like Wall of Fire is likely the better choice IMO. Or taking all the Monk specific options is generally better as well.
Fireball would likely be my last option.
Fireball at level 11 is not as bad as it sounds either. Part of this thta people ignore is thta to some real extent the Full Casters are still relying on their 3rd level spell slots. At 11th level they barely have 5th level spell slots and they can't make do with just 5 or 6 spell slots for the entire day. So they do a lot of relying on things like third level fireballs for various reasons. And now this partial caster can now do those same fireballs at a level where they are still at least partially relevant to the full casters.
They not only have two 5th level slots but a 6th level too.
So they can cast 9 fireballs a day (11 for wizards).
If you assume 2 SR per day then the monk can cast 6.
But that's just assuming that you want to use all ki on fireballs which you likely won't ... So let's say about 4 per day.
Even then the full casters are throughly out AoE you with out much effort.
If you use the monk specific disciplines you are at least doing something that they cannot do and thus adding to overall versatility.
Actually you could still do 6 and do other things as well. Your ignoring the 3 ki that can't be used on fireballs per each rest. Assuming you want to maximize your fireballs and do something else you have 9 ki to do so over the course of the day.
And a level later if all the 4 elements monk wanted to do is fireballs they suddenly go up to 9 that they can do a day. Or they can do the 6 from before and still spend 12 ki on other things that they want to do with their Ki assuming 2 rests.
but it sounds so much more impressive stacking 9 fireballs. Despite the fact that fireballs, even when overpowered, aren't necessarily the best spells that the Full Casters would have. And even with those better spells they are still relying to some extent on things like fireballs from their third level spells. That hasn't changed despite comparing the numbers of castings. Which means the 4 elements monk using a tool that the full caster is still somewhat using still applies.
And that's all assuming what should be the dead obvious fact that this assumes that battles are repeatedly set up that fireballs are the optimal choice to use. So there may be even less fireballs out of the mage than the 9 spell slots that they have and the monk still has Ki points to do single target things if they wish to and can always decide to do one less fireball to get even more points to do those single target and even non-magical things if they wish.
Thats not how numbers work.....you would be 1 ki short per short rest to cast more and they fully replenish on a short rest so you will always be 1 short....
So 6 is the correct number here....and thats if you ONLY spend it on fireballs and not give up ki for literally anything else.
Overall fireball is probably one of the worst options for monk at that level. As others have stated you are probably better off with a close quarters AoE or the monk specific disciplines.
You shouldn't compare a Four Elements Monk to a full caster; their spell level progression is somewhere between third casters (Arcane Trickster/Eldritch Knight) and half casters (Artificer/Paladin/Ranger), except that unlike those they don't have a separate casting resource, though the resource they do use does refresh on a short rest (more like a Warlock).
This is what makes changes to them so tricky to balance; in some ways Monks are a little bit like casters already (a bunch of abilities you can switch between as required with a resource to fuel them), but Four Elements takes that a whole lot further into proper spells and spell-like effects.
Sure, a dedicated sorcerer or wizard will be throwing out much nastier stuff at the same level, but when they run out of spell slots or run into an antimagic field, they don't have Monk features to fall back on. Besides, a 3rd level fireball at 11th might not be as nasty, but it still hurts, especially against hordes of enemies (you can only stunning strike so many in a turn).
I guess I am just saying that having fireball at 11th level isn't really as great as it sounds and having something that is a buff like Fly or Gaseous Form or area control like Wall of Fire is likely the better choice IMO. Or taking all the Monk specific options is generally better as well.
Fireball would likely be my last option.
Fireball at level 11 is not as bad as it sounds either. Part of this thta people ignore is thta to some real extent the Full Casters are still relying on their 3rd level spell slots. At 11th level they barely have 5th level spell slots and they can't make do with just 5 or 6 spell slots for the entire day. So they do a lot of relying on things like third level fireballs for various reasons. And now this partial caster can now do those same fireballs at a level where they are still at least partially relevant to the full casters.
They not only have two 5th level slots but a 6th level too.
So they can cast 9 fireballs a day (11 for wizards).
If you assume 2 SR per day then the monk can cast 6.
But that's just assuming that you want to use all ki on fireballs which you likely won't ... So let's say about 4 per day.
Even then the full casters are throughly out AoE you with out much effort.
If you use the monk specific disciplines you are at least doing something that they cannot do and thus adding to overall versatility.
Actually you could still do 6 and do other things as well. Your ignoring the 3 ki that can't be used on fireballs per each rest. Assuming you want to maximize your fireballs and do something else you have 9 ki to do so over the course of the day.
And a level later if all the 4 elements monk wanted to do is fireballs they suddenly go up to 9 that they can do a day. Or they can do the 6 from before and still spend 12 ki on other things that they want to do with their Ki assuming 2 rests.
but it sounds so much more impressive stacking 9 fireballs. Despite the fact that fireballs, even when overpowered, aren't necessarily the best spells that the Full Casters would have. And even with those better spells they are still relying to some extent on things like fireballs from their third level spells. That hasn't changed despite comparing the numbers of castings. Which means the 4 elements monk using a tool that the full caster is still somewhat using still applies.
And that's all assuming what should be the dead obvious fact that this assumes that battles are repeatedly set up that fireballs are the optimal choice to use. So there may be even less fireballs out of the mage than the 9 spell slots that they have and the monk still has Ki points to do single target things if they wish to and can always decide to do one less fireball to get even more points to do those single target and even non-magical things if they wish.
Thats not how numbers work.....you would be 1 ki short per short rest to cast more and they fully replenish on a short rest so you will always be 1 short....
So 6 is the correct number here....and thats if you ONLY spend it on fireballs and not give up ki for literally anything else.
Overall fireball is probably one of the worst options for monk at that level. As others have stated you are probably better off with a close quarters AoE or the monk specific disciplines.
Again. disingenuousness that does not change what I said.
It does not change that you are no longer 1 short at level 12. It does not change the fact that you have ki to use on other things besides fireball even if you use it all for fireballs. As I said. 3 per short rest that your even acknowledging by saying one short. And a total of 9 over the day with 2 short rests. That is exactly what my math and numbers say.
I did not combine ki from short rests anywhere in my math or posts to make more fireballs than that.
Fireball is not one of the worst options. It simply is an option that works off of personal preference and has it's uses. People have spoken of their preferences in the matter that your trying to turn into some kind of objective fact statement. Which you seem to do a lot in these threads if it supports whatever bias that you have.
You shouldn't compare a Four Elements Monk to a full caster; their spell level progression is somewhere between third casters (Arcane Trickster/Eldritch Knight) and half casters (Artificer/Paladin/Ranger), except that unlike those they don't have a separate casting resource, though the resource they do use does refresh on a short rest (more like a Warlock).
This is what makes changes to them so tricky to balance; in some ways Monks are a little bit like casters already (a bunch of abilities you can switch between as required with a resource to fuel them), but Four Elements takes that a whole lot further into proper spells and spell-like effects.
Sure, a dedicated sorcerer or wizard will be throwing out much nastier stuff at the same level, but when they run out of spell slots or run into an antimagic field, they don't have Monk features to fall back on. Besides, a 3rd level fireball at 11th might not be as nasty, but it still hurts, especially against hordes of enemies (you can only stunning strike so many in a turn).
I guess I am just saying that having fireball at 11th level isn't really as great as it sounds and having something that is a buff like Fly or Gaseous Form or area control like Wall of Fire is likely the better choice IMO. Or taking all the Monk specific options is generally better as well.
Fireball would likely be my last option.
Fireball at level 11 is not as bad as it sounds either. Part of this thta people ignore is thta to some real extent the Full Casters are still relying on their 3rd level spell slots. At 11th level they barely have 5th level spell slots and they can't make do with just 5 or 6 spell slots for the entire day. So they do a lot of relying on things like third level fireballs for various reasons. And now this partial caster can now do those same fireballs at a level where they are still at least partially relevant to the full casters.
They not only have two 5th level slots but a 6th level too.
So they can cast 9 fireballs a day (11 for wizards).
If you assume 2 SR per day then the monk can cast 6.
But that's just assuming that you want to use all ki on fireballs which you likely won't ... So let's say about 4 per day.
Even then the full casters are throughly out AoE you with out much effort.
If you use the monk specific disciplines you are at least doing something that they cannot do and thus adding to overall versatility.
Actually you could still do 6 and do other things as well. Your ignoring the 3 ki that can't be used on fireballs per each rest. Assuming you want to maximize your fireballs and do something else you have 9 ki to do so over the course of the day.
And a level later if all the 4 elements monk wanted to do is fireballs they suddenly go up to 9 that they can do a day. Or they can do the 6 from before and still spend 12 ki on other things that they want to do with their Ki assuming 2 rests.
but it sounds so much more impressive stacking 9 fireballs. Despite the fact that fireballs, even when overpowered, aren't necessarily the best spells that the Full Casters would have. And even with those better spells they are still relying to some extent on things like fireballs from their third level spells. That hasn't changed despite comparing the numbers of castings. Which means the 4 elements monk using a tool that the full caster is still somewhat using still applies.
And that's all assuming what should be the dead obvious fact that this assumes that battles are repeatedly set up that fireballs are the optimal choice to use. So there may be even less fireballs out of the mage than the 9 spell slots that they have and the monk still has Ki points to do single target things if they wish to and can always decide to do one less fireball to get even more points to do those single target and even non-magical things if they wish.
Thats not how numbers work.....you would be 1 ki short per short rest to cast more and they fully replenish on a short rest so you will always be 1 short....
So 6 is the correct number here....and thats if you ONLY spend it on fireballs and not give up ki for literally anything else.
Overall fireball is probably one of the worst options for monk at that level. As others have stated you are probably better off with a close quarters AoE or the monk specific disciplines.
Again. disingenuousness that does not change what I said.
It does not change that you are no longer 1 short at level 12. It does not change the fact that you have ki to use on other things besides fireball even if you use it all for fireballs. As I said. 3 per short rest that your even acknowledging by saying one short. And a total of 9 over the day with 2 short rests. That is exactly what my math and numbers say.
I did not combine ki from short rests anywhere in my math or posts to make more fireballs than that.
Fireball is not one of the worst options. It simply is an option that works off of personal preference and has it's uses. People have spoken of their preferences in the matter that your trying to turn into some kind of objective fact statement. Which you seem to do a lot in these threads if it supports whatever bias that you have.
Your math is off...
At 11th you have 11 ki.
Wake up: cast 2 fireball at 4 ki apiece. You can't cast a third.
Take rest: cast 2 fireball at 4 ki apiece. You can't cast a third
Take rest: cast 2 fireball at 4 ki apiece. You can't cast a third
6 fireball that's all... I started by talking 11th level which is where you get fireball. If you move the goal post to 12 then yeah sure but that's not what I originally posted so that's indeed moving the goal.
Which by the way you are likely 95% of the way thru the campaign so you get its benefits for a short time.
It's definitely one of the least valuable options if you have any full casters in the crew.
You shouldn't compare a Four Elements Monk to a full caster; their spell level progression is somewhere between third casters (Arcane Trickster/Eldritch Knight) and half casters (Artificer/Paladin/Ranger), except that unlike those they don't have a separate casting resource, though the resource they do use does refresh on a short rest (more like a Warlock).
This is what makes changes to them so tricky to balance; in some ways Monks are a little bit like casters already (a bunch of abilities you can switch between as required with a resource to fuel them), but Four Elements takes that a whole lot further into proper spells and spell-like effects.
Sure, a dedicated sorcerer or wizard will be throwing out much nastier stuff at the same level, but when they run out of spell slots or run into an antimagic field, they don't have Monk features to fall back on. Besides, a 3rd level fireball at 11th might not be as nasty, but it still hurts, especially against hordes of enemies (you can only stunning strike so many in a turn).
I guess I am just saying that having fireball at 11th level isn't really as great as it sounds and having something that is a buff like Fly or Gaseous Form or area control like Wall of Fire is likely the better choice IMO. Or taking all the Monk specific options is generally better as well.
Fireball would likely be my last option.
Fireball at level 11 is not as bad as it sounds either. Part of this thta people ignore is thta to some real extent the Full Casters are still relying on their 3rd level spell slots. At 11th level they barely have 5th level spell slots and they can't make do with just 5 or 6 spell slots for the entire day. So they do a lot of relying on things like third level fireballs for various reasons. And now this partial caster can now do those same fireballs at a level where they are still at least partially relevant to the full casters.
They not only have two 5th level slots but a 6th level too.
So they can cast 9 fireballs a day (11 for wizards).
If you assume 2 SR per day then the monk can cast 6.
But that's just assuming that you want to use all ki on fireballs which you likely won't ... So let's say about 4 per day.
Even then the full casters are throughly out AoE you with out much effort.
If you use the monk specific disciplines you are at least doing something that they cannot do and thus adding to overall versatility.
Actually you could still do 6 and do other things as well. Your ignoring the 3 ki that can't be used on fireballs per each rest. Assuming you want to maximize your fireballs and do something else you have 9 ki to do so over the course of the day.
And a level later if all the 4 elements monk wanted to do is fireballs they suddenly go up to 9 that they can do a day. Or they can do the 6 from before and still spend 12 ki on other things that they want to do with their Ki assuming 2 rests.
but it sounds so much more impressive stacking 9 fireballs. Despite the fact that fireballs, even when overpowered, aren't necessarily the best spells that the Full Casters would have. And even with those better spells they are still relying to some extent on things like fireballs from their third level spells. That hasn't changed despite comparing the numbers of castings. Which means the 4 elements monk using a tool that the full caster is still somewhat using still applies.
And that's all assuming what should be the dead obvious fact that this assumes that battles are repeatedly set up that fireballs are the optimal choice to use. So there may be even less fireballs out of the mage than the 9 spell slots that they have and the monk still has Ki points to do single target things if they wish to and can always decide to do one less fireball to get even more points to do those single target and even non-magical things if they wish.
Thats not how numbers work.....you would be 1 ki short per short rest to cast more and they fully replenish on a short rest so you will always be 1 short....
So 6 is the correct number here....and thats if you ONLY spend it on fireballs and not give up ki for literally anything else.
Overall fireball is probably one of the worst options for monk at that level. As others have stated you are probably better off with a close quarters AoE or the monk specific disciplines.
Again. disingenuousness that does not change what I said.
It does not change that you are no longer 1 short at level 12. It does not change the fact that you have ki to use on other things besides fireball even if you use it all for fireballs. As I said. 3 per short rest that your even acknowledging by saying one short. And a total of 9 over the day with 2 short rests. That is exactly what my math and numbers say.
I did not combine ki from short rests anywhere in my math or posts to make more fireballs than that.
Fireball is not one of the worst options. It simply is an option that works off of personal preference and has it's uses. People have spoken of their preferences in the matter that your trying to turn into some kind of objective fact statement. Which you seem to do a lot in these threads if it supports whatever bias that you have.
Your math is off...
At 11th you have 11 ki.
Wake up: cast 2 fireball at 4 ki apiece. You can't cast a third.
Take rest: cast 2 fireball at 4 ki apiece. You can't cast a third
Take rest: cast 2 fireball at 4 ki apiece. You can't cast a third
6 fireball that's all... I started by talking 11th level which is where you get fireball. If you move the goal post to 12 then yeah sure but that's not what I originally posted so that's indeed moving the goal.
Which by the way you are likely 95% of the way thru the campaign so you get its benefits for a short time.
It's definitely one of the least valuable options if you have any full casters in the crew.
My math is not off. This is exactly what I said. You keep trying to rearrange it to call me wrong when I am not.
11 Ki. 4 ki per fireball. 8 ki to cast 2 fireballs. This is per short rest
This leaves 3 extra Ki to be used on other things. 3 extra Ki you are again ignoring by doing your math and conveniently leaving them out yet changing nothing that I have said nor the math that I did.
3 extra Ki per Rest. When you have your starting Ki plus the ki regained after each short rest of which there are 2 is a total of 9 ki for the day to use on other things.
This is getting old.
And the 12th level is an important distinction. Because it's a big jump up to keep in mind where things shift. But it's easy to ignore when it's not mentioned. Just like many other things about the monk that tend to be used to devalue the monk in various ways when people argue against them because monks are prone to getting at least a little something at just about every level but those little somethings can make big dynamic changes. 11 is nice because you can pick up the Fireballs and do a bunch of them. 2 is Nice because it basically empowers level 11 by a nice degree and opens up your options more, or alternatively do more fireballs, that your deciding are only good on Full Casters despite the fact that Full Casters still use them at these levels, and not necessarily by Upcasting them. Mentioning this Level is something to bring up as a point of awareness. It is not shifting goals. It is showing Various Details to keep in mind because they do have value and can mean a lot to various choices or just plain the dynamics and capabilities of the Monk, Even with 4 Elements that you just like to attack or ignore in your Biased replies.
12th level is important but not at all what the basis of discussion was so was moving the goal post to a different level.
6 fireballs per day is the correct number for level 11. Those 3 extra ki per rest, while valuable for other things, cannot be used for fireballs so 6 per day is the correct number.
Major point being that monks are already ki hungry and having to spend the vast majority of your ki resources to cast fireball 6 times per day (in the best scenario likely with 2 short rests) is not really a good trade off for that valuable ki ESPECIALLY if you have a full caster in the group already.
4E monks would be pretty decent in a no caster party....but I have literally never had that as spellcasting is generally pretty cool and everyone wants to do it....even monks!
12th level is important but not at all what the basis of discussion was so was moving the goal post to a different level.
6 fireballs per day is the correct number for level 11. Those 3 extra ki per rest, while valuable for other things, cannot be used for fireballs so 6 per day is the correct number.
Major point being that monks are already ki hungry and having to spend the vast majority of your ki resources to cast fireball 6 times per day (in the best scenario likely with 2 short rests) is not really a good trade off for that valuable ki ESPECIALLY if you have a full caster in the group already.
4E monks would be pretty decent in a no caster party....but I have literally never had that as spellcasting is generally pretty cool and everyone wants to do it....even monks!
It was the basis of the conversation. Because it was still about the Power level of Monks. Your narrowing things and calling it goal post moving because it damages your argument. Your talking about the Power level of the 4 elements monk and how ki hungry they are. So noting how and when things change is important to. The balance would be very different if that balance change was 3 levels away or even 4 levels away rather than 1 level away. Things don't just stop and only work in isolation only at level 11. The Levels build upon each other. Nearby Levels can actually shift things quite a bit and sometimes are worthy of consideration as well.
Also you still ignored the other 3 ki that were available and blanket claimed that There was no ki to do other things. 9 Ki is a fair bit of ki to do other things.
Monks are only really ki hungry past the lowest levels if you go overboard using it as a resource on literally ever chance you get without consideration on if you actually need to use it or not, Or even if how your actually using it is actually a worthwhile use of it. Which is actually a mistake players make not only with the Monk but with several classes but what is worse this is a mistake that many things like Guides and advice from Experienced Players often advocate for when it comes to the monk.
But all this boils down to is "If your Going to Represent the numbers then represent them accurately" you were only giving partial attention to the numbers and very general blanket statements that can be addressed and refuted by bringing up these other awareness points. Sometimes that means giving a broader picture. Sometimes it doesn't. You don't necessarily shift goal posts just because you present a broader picture. There was no magical goal post at level 11 to begin with. That was a self imposed limitation by you to call it bad. So I addressed Level 11 and then I showed that not only Level 11 is different from what you said. But there is another level that the player can build into shortly after that shifts thing as part of the wider picture.
I also think you misrepresent the 3 ki per short as more than it is...that is 3 flurry of blows beyond the 2 fireballs. Its just such a steep cost of your cost ki that its hardly worth it considering what AoE is available to casters at this time, what you are potentially giving up as other options, and what your save will be compared to a full caster as well. Overall its just not a great option if you use ki as the casting resource.
I think going back to the original point of the post I still think the best fix for 4E monk is adding a secondary resource for them like Pact Slots. With pact slots and not burning ki all of a sudden fireball seems like an amazing option that I would love to pick up as I know I can use my ki for monk stuff but still cast a fireball or two per short rest without deleting my class.
I also think you misrepresent the 3 ki per short as more than it is...that is 3 flurry of blows beyond the 2 fireballs. Its just such a steep cost of your cost ki that its hardly worth it considering what AoE is available to casters at this time, what you are potentially giving up as other options, and what your save will be compared to a full caster as well. Overall its just not a great option if you use ki as the casting resource.
I think going back to the original point of the post I still think the best fix for 4E monk is adding a secondary resource for them like Pact Slots. With pact slots and not burning ki all of a sudden fireball seems like an amazing option that I would love to pick up as I know I can use my ki for monk stuff but still cast a fireball or two per short rest without deleting my class.
Sure... seems like a decent option...Until your only getting 1 per short rest. Because it's only a half caster so it's only going to have half the resources of the Warlock... making for 3 per day... It doesn't become more amazing just because you switch up which limited resource you tie it to. And it actually hurts it unless you basically over power the 4 elements monk by giving them basically all the spell slots and thus much of the casting of the Warlock. And then they aren't really half casters anymore. They are warlocks with martial arts and Ki.
You are not deleting your class just because you want to do a fireball or two. And by the way you math Fights in other threads. 3 Flurry of blows (or stunning strikes) is not bad at all. That's half of the number of rounds of fights you've used in other threads to tell me certain things are better. With the other half of the rounds mostly being taken up by fireballs. That's pretty damned good considering you've just covered 5 of the 6 rounds of combat that takes place between short rests with a combination of class and sub class powers for increased offense. Even if you combined patient defense... That's still a heavy dose of class resources combined with class and subclass powers for half of those 6 rounds.
But somehow this is now really weak and really bad when it's being used against a subclass of monk. Even though it's a strength to subclasses in other classes.
It's easy enough to do pact slots then if you truly want to cast more you can spend ki to do so.
The idea being that you won't have to spend ki to play your subclass.
It would be like EK having to spend Action Surge when they wanted to cast a spell.... You give up class feature to use your subclass features.
No. EK has a completely different problem. That to be a spell caster they have to basically stop being a fighter or they have to limit their fighter capabilities. And they have to use up resources on a class that at it's core doesn't revolve around resources much but is more about sustainability. And when it runs out then that is it for the rest of the day. And it has no ability to turn it's Fighter stuff into Mage stuff or it's mage stuff into Fighter stuff. So if situations don't come up in turn to use both. Then one of them is going to be either mostly or completely wasted. It has it's own drawbacks and flaws.
4 elements monk has this nice thing where it costs it's resource but it gets that resource back far easier than many others. it can switch that resource between fighter and caster essentially as it chooses. It can even use several core effects along with it's casting in various ways since it is not as all or nothing as many detractors claim. But it's drawback is that it potentially uses resources faster to be able to do so. That's a fair trade for what it's getting. And what Many really feel that the Eldritch Knight Should be Doing.
I've never had an issue with EK spellcasting getting in the way of being a fighter....I generally did very well with Shield, Shadow Blade, Find familiar.
Bladetrips are very good at T1 and then again at level 7.
Overall they get a lot out of their spellcasting because it doesn't cost them doing fighter things.
I've never had an issue with EK spellcasting getting in the way of being a fighter....I generally did very well with Shield, Shadow Blade, Find familiar.
Bladetrips are very good at T1 and then again at level 7.
Overall they get a lot out of their spellcasting because it doesn't cost them doing fighter things.
Except that it does. At level 5 your sacrificing an extra attack. Even for those Cantrips. At level 6 your still sacrificing action economy to mimic Extra Attack with a mix of magic to it. There are potentially other things you cannot do on your turn just to get both the cantrip and a normal attack. Now some times tis is not a problem because you don't have a lot to do with your bonus action. But sometimes it is. And if you want to do anything more than that cantrip? You have to stop using your fighter attacks altogether. That round that you cast Shadow Blade. That's a round you can't be doing damage through martial prowess. That find familiar. it's mostly just a fancy bandaid convenience solution to something that isn't really all that much of a problem and doesn't change the game all that much because of it.
So yes. it has affected your ability to cast spells. You've just taken steps and spell choices to minimize it... but also minimize your abilities as a mage in some ways to support that martial style. Or you've decided that what your giving up is acceptable and because it's acceptable to you in a subjective fashion have declared that it's not happening even when it is.
I've never had an issue with EK spellcasting getting in the way of being a fighter....I generally did very well with Shield, Shadow Blade, Find familiar.
Bladetrips are very good at T1 and then again at level 7.
Overall they get a lot out of their spellcasting because it doesn't cost them doing fighter things.
Except that it does. At level 5 your sacrificing an extra attack. Even for those Cantrips. At level 6 your still sacrificing action economy to mimic Extra Attack with a mix of magic to it. There are potentially other things you cannot do on your turn just to get both the cantrip and a normal attack. Now some times tis is not a problem because you don't have a lot to do with your bonus action. But sometimes it is. And if you want to do anything more than that cantrip? You have to stop using your fighter attacks altogether. That round that you cast Shadow Blade. That's a round you can't be doing damage through martial prowess. That find familiar. it's mostly just a fancy bandaid convenience solution to something that isn't really all that much of a problem and doesn't change the game all that much because of it.
So yes. it has affected your ability to cast spells. You've just taken steps and spell choices to minimize it... but also minimize your abilities as a mage in some ways to support that martial style. Or you've decided that what your giving up is acceptable and because it's acceptable to you in a subjective fashion have declared that it's not happening even when it is.
Yes that's why I said T1 (levels 1-4) and level 7.
Shadowblade is a BA so your also forgetting that part as well.... You can still attack that turn
As much as I like them, I think you might be underplaying the limitations of Eldritch Knight; Shield can be great on an already high AC character, but it also burns through your spell slots extremely quickly (a Monk's Patient Defence can arguably be better and lasts longer).
An EK won't get 2nd level slots until 7th level, and at that level Shadow Blade is only really good for being magical and a different damage type, the actual damage output isn't much more than you can do already. It's not until you get 3rd level slots (13th level) that Shadow Blade gets really good, but all it really does is just emphasises what the Fighter is already good at (doing a lot of melee damage).
By comparison, Way of the Four Elements Monks gets higher level spells earlier, plus spells of a higher maximum level, and can cast more spells over the course of an adventuring day. The trade off is that you can't do as much in a single encounter, and the resource is shared with other abilities (which is what the OP is trying to address).
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
As much as I like them, I think you might be underplaying the limitations of Eldritch Knight; Shield can be great on an already high AC character, but it also burns through your spell slots extremely quickly (a Monk's Patient Defence can arguably be better and lasts longer).
An EK won't get 2nd level slots until 7th level, and at that level Shadow Blade is only really good for being magical and a different damage type, the actual damage output isn't much more than you can do already. It's not until you get 3rd level slots (13th level) that Shadow Blade gets really good, but all it really does is just emphasises what the Fighter is already good at (doing a lot of melee damage).
By comparison, Way of the Four Elements Monks gets higher level spells earlier, plus spells of a higher maximum level, and can cast more spells over the course of an adventuring day. The trade off is that you can't do as much in a single encounter, and the resource is shared with other abilities (which is what the OP is trying to address).
They get fireball at level 11 so it's not amazing by any means.
4e shines with the monk specific disciplines not the spells....which is what my point overall was with the selection of disciplines vs. spell mimics.
EK also gets out of combat versatility with cantrips and pairs very well with wizard dips.
They get fireball at level 11 so it's not amazing by any means.
That's a full two levels before an Eldritch Knight could get it, and why are you so obsessed with Fireball?
The value of spellcasting is not measured in Fireballs; maybe other people's experiences differ to mine but it's one of the spells I cast the least in D&D 5e, as I almost never get more than a single round before I can't use it anymore without blowing up the entire rest of my party. Only time I've cast more than one in a fight is when our party chose the battlefield so I was at a nice long range to just hurl them as the enemies approached, and even then half the party closed the distance so I got off half as many as I could have done.
4e shines with the monk specific disciplines not the spells
Then why the focus on Eldritch Knight's spellcasting abilities? Of the spells they can get 4E Monks get them sooner and can cast them more than an EK, and you're saying they've got other superior abilities as well? So what's the point exactly?
There seems nothing wrong with the abilities 4E's get access to as such, the problem with 4E is that the more you use them, the fewer core Monk abilities you can also use (so being a 4E can mean diminishing being a Monk, rather than building on top of), but that's exactly the problem the OP wants to address reducing the cost of 4E disciplines N times per long rest, as it means either more use out of them, or more spare Ki for regular Monk abilities.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
They get fireball at level 11 so it's not amazing by any means.
That's a full two levels before an Eldritch Knight could get it, and why are you so obsessed with Fireball?
The value of spellcasting is not measured in Fireballs; maybe other people's experiences differ to mine but it's one of the spells I cast the least in D&D 5e, as I almost never get more than a single round before I can't use it anymore without blowing up the entire rest of my party. Only time I've cast more than one in a fight is when our party chose the battlefield so I was at a nice long range to just hurl them as the enemies approached, and even then half the party closed the distance so I got off half as many as I could have done.
4e shines with the monk specific disciplines not the spells
Then why the focus on Eldritch Knight's spellcasting abilities? Of the spells they can get 4E Monks get them sooner and can cast them more than an EK, and you're saying they've got other superior abilities as well? So what's the point exactly?
There seems nothing wrong with the abilities 4E's get access to as such, the problem with 4E is that the more you use them, the fewer core Monk abilities you can also use (so being a 4E can mean diminishing being a Monk, rather than building on top of), but that's exactly the problem the OP wants to address reducing the cost of 4E disciplines N times per long rest, as it means either more use out of them, or more spare Ki for regular Monk abilities.
My point was and is that fireball for 4e monk is not great especially at the level you get it.
My point was and is that fireball for 4e monk is not great especially at the level you get it.
You've said so multiple times already, but that has nothing to do with the OP's proposed improvement.
It's also arguably wrong; a 4E Monk can (but doesn't have to) take Fireball two levels earlier than a third caster could, or two levels later than a half caster could (except that Paladins can't take it, and neither can most Artificers, with the exception of the Artillerist). While full casters can get it sooner; they're full casters so this shouldn't surprise you, as getting better spells sooner is literally the whole point of being a full caster.
Ultimately it doesn't matter what a full caster can or could do at the same level; if you want some long range AoE damage then Fireball is a perfectly good option for the opening salvos of a battle, and it doesn't even prevent a 4E Monk from closing the distance to switch to melee at the same time. No everyone's groups will properly support using fireball, mine certainly don't, and for that reason I prefer shorter range 4E options and upcasting lower level disciplines, but some people will prefer something else.
But can we please just put this fireball crap to rest? Unless you're proposing a way to fix them, then why mention it at all (and importantly, why repeat it for two full pages)?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
My point was and is that fireball for 4e monk is not great especially at the level you get it.
You've said so multiple times already, but that has nothing to do with the OP's proposed improvement.
It's also arguably wrong; a 4E Monk can (but doesn't have to) take Fireball two levels earlier than a third caster could, or two levels later than a half caster could (except that Paladins can't take it, and neither can most Artificers, with the exception of the Artillerist). While full casters can get it sooner; they're full casters so this shouldn't surprise you, as getting better spells sooner is literally the whole point of being a full caster.
Ultimately it doesn't matter what a full caster can or could do at the same level; if you want some long range AoE damage then Fireball is a perfectly good option for the opening salvos of a battle, and it doesn't even prevent a 4E Monk from closing the distance to switch to melee at the same time. No everyone's groups will properly support using fireball, mine certainly don't, and for that reason I prefer shorter range 4E options and upcasting lower level disciplines, but some people will prefer something else.
But can we please just put this fireball crap to rest? Unless you're proposing a way to fix them, then why mention it at all (and importantly, why repeat it for two full pages)?
I did try to steer back to the original convo with my pact slots comments.
I think that's the best way to make the 4e monk unique is to go that route and just let them pick spells from the sorcerer list.
My point was and is that fireball for 4e monk is not great especially at the level you get it.
You've said so multiple times already, but that has nothing to do with the OP's proposed improvement.
It's also arguably wrong; a 4E Monk can (but doesn't have to) take Fireball two levels earlier than a third caster could, or two levels later than a half caster could (except that Paladins can't take it, and neither can most Artificers, with the exception of the Artillerist). While full casters can get it sooner; they're full casters so this shouldn't surprise you, as getting better spells sooner is literally the whole point of being a full caster.
Ultimately it doesn't matter what a full caster can or could do at the same level; if you want some long range AoE damage then Fireball is a perfectly good option for the opening salvos of a battle, and it doesn't even prevent a 4E Monk from closing the distance to switch to melee at the same time. No everyone's groups will properly support using fireball, mine certainly don't, and for that reason I prefer shorter range 4E options and upcasting lower level disciplines, but some people will prefer something else.
But can we please just put this fireball crap to rest? Unless you're proposing a way to fix them, then why mention it at all (and importantly, why repeat it for two full pages)?
I did try to steer back to the original convo with my pact slots comments.
I think that's the best way to make the 4e monk unique is to go that route and just let them pick spells from the sorcerer list.
but it doesn't fix it. it just creates the same problem that EK suffer from. But pretending it's better because it's Warlock Mix instead of Wizard Mix.
Which is exactly what I said before. It's not a fix to the problem. It's just a different problem. Sure you can use your Ki abilities on more monk things. But it doesn't blend into Monk in the way your advocating for any more than the current system does. And it means they can do things less and in ways that do not mix with Monk. And when you are being monk you have more points to spend on Monk things. But you end up with less things to spend them on and nothing that isn't core monk. Which is just a different version of the complaint that it doesn't mix but in the other direction.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Thats not how numbers work.....you would be 1 ki short per short rest to cast more and they fully replenish on a short rest so you will always be 1 short....
So 6 is the correct number here....and thats if you ONLY spend it on fireballs and not give up ki for literally anything else.
Overall fireball is probably one of the worst options for monk at that level. As others have stated you are probably better off with a close quarters AoE or the monk specific disciplines.
Again. disingenuousness that does not change what I said.
It does not change that you are no longer 1 short at level 12. It does not change the fact that you have ki to use on other things besides fireball even if you use it all for fireballs. As I said. 3 per short rest that your even acknowledging by saying one short. And a total of 9 over the day with 2 short rests. That is exactly what my math and numbers say.
I did not combine ki from short rests anywhere in my math or posts to make more fireballs than that.
Fireball is not one of the worst options. It simply is an option that works off of personal preference and has it's uses. People have spoken of their preferences in the matter that your trying to turn into some kind of objective fact statement. Which you seem to do a lot in these threads if it supports whatever bias that you have.
Your math is off...
At 11th you have 11 ki.
Wake up: cast 2 fireball at 4 ki apiece. You can't cast a third.
Take rest: cast 2 fireball at 4 ki apiece. You can't cast a third
Take rest: cast 2 fireball at 4 ki apiece. You can't cast a third
6 fireball that's all... I started by talking 11th level which is where you get fireball. If you move the goal post to 12 then yeah sure but that's not what I originally posted so that's indeed moving the goal.
Which by the way you are likely 95% of the way thru the campaign so you get its benefits for a short time.
It's definitely one of the least valuable options if you have any full casters in the crew.
My math is not off. This is exactly what I said. You keep trying to rearrange it to call me wrong when I am not.
11 Ki. 4 ki per fireball. 8 ki to cast 2 fireballs. This is per short rest
This leaves 3 extra Ki to be used on other things. 3 extra Ki you are again ignoring by doing your math and conveniently leaving them out yet changing nothing that I have said nor the math that I did.
3 extra Ki per Rest. When you have your starting Ki plus the ki regained after each short rest of which there are 2 is a total of 9 ki for the day to use on other things.
This is getting old.
And the 12th level is an important distinction. Because it's a big jump up to keep in mind where things shift. But it's easy to ignore when it's not mentioned. Just like many other things about the monk that tend to be used to devalue the monk in various ways when people argue against them because monks are prone to getting at least a little something at just about every level but those little somethings can make big dynamic changes. 11 is nice because you can pick up the Fireballs and do a bunch of them. 2 is Nice because it basically empowers level 11 by a nice degree and opens up your options more, or alternatively do more fireballs, that your deciding are only good on Full Casters despite the fact that Full Casters still use them at these levels, and not necessarily by Upcasting them. Mentioning this Level is something to bring up as a point of awareness. It is not shifting goals. It is showing Various Details to keep in mind because they do have value and can mean a lot to various choices or just plain the dynamics and capabilities of the Monk, Even with 4 Elements that you just like to attack or ignore in your Biased replies.
12th level is important but not at all what the basis of discussion was so was moving the goal post to a different level.
6 fireballs per day is the correct number for level 11. Those 3 extra ki per rest, while valuable for other things, cannot be used for fireballs so 6 per day is the correct number.
Major point being that monks are already ki hungry and having to spend the vast majority of your ki resources to cast fireball 6 times per day (in the best scenario likely with 2 short rests) is not really a good trade off for that valuable ki ESPECIALLY if you have a full caster in the group already.
4E monks would be pretty decent in a no caster party....but I have literally never had that as spellcasting is generally pretty cool and everyone wants to do it....even monks!
It was the basis of the conversation. Because it was still about the Power level of Monks. Your narrowing things and calling it goal post moving because it damages your argument. Your talking about the Power level of the 4 elements monk and how ki hungry they are. So noting how and when things change is important to. The balance would be very different if that balance change was 3 levels away or even 4 levels away rather than 1 level away. Things don't just stop and only work in isolation only at level 11. The Levels build upon each other. Nearby Levels can actually shift things quite a bit and sometimes are worthy of consideration as well.
Also you still ignored the other 3 ki that were available and blanket claimed that There was no ki to do other things. 9 Ki is a fair bit of ki to do other things.
Monks are only really ki hungry past the lowest levels if you go overboard using it as a resource on literally ever chance you get without consideration on if you actually need to use it or not, Or even if how your actually using it is actually a worthwhile use of it. Which is actually a mistake players make not only with the Monk but with several classes but what is worse this is a mistake that many things like Guides and advice from Experienced Players often advocate for when it comes to the monk.
But all this boils down to is "If your Going to Represent the numbers then represent them accurately" you were only giving partial attention to the numbers and very general blanket statements that can be addressed and refuted by bringing up these other awareness points. Sometimes that means giving a broader picture. Sometimes it doesn't. You don't necessarily shift goal posts just because you present a broader picture. There was no magical goal post at level 11 to begin with. That was a self imposed limitation by you to call it bad. So I addressed Level 11 and then I showed that not only Level 11 is different from what you said. But there is another level that the player can build into shortly after that shifts thing as part of the wider picture.
I also think you misrepresent the 3 ki per short as more than it is...that is 3 flurry of blows beyond the 2 fireballs. Its just such a steep cost of your cost ki that its hardly worth it considering what AoE is available to casters at this time, what you are potentially giving up as other options, and what your save will be compared to a full caster as well. Overall its just not a great option if you use ki as the casting resource.
I think going back to the original point of the post I still think the best fix for 4E monk is adding a secondary resource for them like Pact Slots. With pact slots and not burning ki all of a sudden fireball seems like an amazing option that I would love to pick up as I know I can use my ki for monk stuff but still cast a fireball or two per short rest without deleting my class.
Sure... seems like a decent option...Until your only getting 1 per short rest. Because it's only a half caster so it's only going to have half the resources of the Warlock... making for 3 per day... It doesn't become more amazing just because you switch up which limited resource you tie it to. And it actually hurts it unless you basically over power the 4 elements monk by giving them basically all the spell slots and thus much of the casting of the Warlock. And then they aren't really half casters anymore. They are warlocks with martial arts and Ki.
You are not deleting your class just because you want to do a fireball or two. And by the way you math Fights in other threads. 3 Flurry of blows (or stunning strikes) is not bad at all. That's half of the number of rounds of fights you've used in other threads to tell me certain things are better. With the other half of the rounds mostly being taken up by fireballs. That's pretty damned good considering you've just covered 5 of the 6 rounds of combat that takes place between short rests with a combination of class and sub class powers for increased offense. Even if you combined patient defense... That's still a heavy dose of class resources combined with class and subclass powers for half of those 6 rounds.
But somehow this is now really weak and really bad when it's being used against a subclass of monk. Even though it's a strength to subclasses in other classes.
It's easy enough to do pact slots then if you truly want to cast more you can spend ki to do so.
The idea being that you won't have to spend ki to play your subclass.
It would be like EK having to spend Action Surge when they wanted to cast a spell.... You give up class feature to use your subclass features.
No. EK has a completely different problem. That to be a spell caster they have to basically stop being a fighter or they have to limit their fighter capabilities. And they have to use up resources on a class that at it's core doesn't revolve around resources much but is more about sustainability. And when it runs out then that is it for the rest of the day. And it has no ability to turn it's Fighter stuff into Mage stuff or it's mage stuff into Fighter stuff. So if situations don't come up in turn to use both. Then one of them is going to be either mostly or completely wasted. It has it's own drawbacks and flaws.
4 elements monk has this nice thing where it costs it's resource but it gets that resource back far easier than many others. it can switch that resource between fighter and caster essentially as it chooses. It can even use several core effects along with it's casting in various ways since it is not as all or nothing as many detractors claim. But it's drawback is that it potentially uses resources faster to be able to do so. That's a fair trade for what it's getting. And what Many really feel that the Eldritch Knight Should be Doing.
I've never had an issue with EK spellcasting getting in the way of being a fighter....I generally did very well with Shield, Shadow Blade, Find familiar.
Bladetrips are very good at T1 and then again at level 7.
Overall they get a lot out of their spellcasting because it doesn't cost them doing fighter things.
Except that it does. At level 5 your sacrificing an extra attack. Even for those Cantrips. At level 6 your still sacrificing action economy to mimic Extra Attack with a mix of magic to it. There are potentially other things you cannot do on your turn just to get both the cantrip and a normal attack. Now some times tis is not a problem because you don't have a lot to do with your bonus action. But sometimes it is. And if you want to do anything more than that cantrip? You have to stop using your fighter attacks altogether. That round that you cast Shadow Blade. That's a round you can't be doing damage through martial prowess. That find familiar. it's mostly just a fancy bandaid convenience solution to something that isn't really all that much of a problem and doesn't change the game all that much because of it.
So yes. it has affected your ability to cast spells. You've just taken steps and spell choices to minimize it... but also minimize your abilities as a mage in some ways to support that martial style. Or you've decided that what your giving up is acceptable and because it's acceptable to you in a subjective fashion have declared that it's not happening even when it is.
Yes that's why I said T1 (levels 1-4) and level 7.
Shadowblade is a BA so your also forgetting that part as well.... You can still attack that turn
As much as I like them, I think you might be underplaying the limitations of Eldritch Knight; Shield can be great on an already high AC character, but it also burns through your spell slots extremely quickly (a Monk's Patient Defence can arguably be better and lasts longer).
An EK won't get 2nd level slots until 7th level, and at that level Shadow Blade is only really good for being magical and a different damage type, the actual damage output isn't much more than you can do already. It's not until you get 3rd level slots (13th level) that Shadow Blade gets really good, but all it really does is just emphasises what the Fighter is already good at (doing a lot of melee damage).
By comparison, Way of the Four Elements Monks gets higher level spells earlier, plus spells of a higher maximum level, and can cast more spells over the course of an adventuring day. The trade off is that you can't do as much in a single encounter, and the resource is shared with other abilities (which is what the OP is trying to address).
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
They get fireball at level 11 so it's not amazing by any means.
4e shines with the monk specific disciplines not the spells....which is what my point overall was with the selection of disciplines vs. spell mimics.
EK also gets out of combat versatility with cantrips and pairs very well with wizard dips.
That's a full two levels before an Eldritch Knight could get it, and why are you so obsessed with Fireball?
The value of spellcasting is not measured in Fireballs; maybe other people's experiences differ to mine but it's one of the spells I cast the least in D&D 5e, as I almost never get more than a single round before I can't use it anymore without blowing up the entire rest of my party. Only time I've cast more than one in a fight is when our party chose the battlefield so I was at a nice long range to just hurl them as the enemies approached, and even then half the party closed the distance so I got off half as many as I could have done.
Then why the focus on Eldritch Knight's spellcasting abilities? Of the spells they can get 4E Monks get them sooner and can cast them more than an EK, and you're saying they've got other superior abilities as well? So what's the point exactly?
There seems nothing wrong with the abilities 4E's get access to as such, the problem with 4E is that the more you use them, the fewer core Monk abilities you can also use (so being a 4E can mean diminishing being a Monk, rather than building on top of), but that's exactly the problem the OP wants to address reducing the cost of 4E disciplines N times per long rest, as it means either more use out of them, or more spare Ki for regular Monk abilities.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
My point was and is that fireball for 4e monk is not great especially at the level you get it.
You've said so multiple times already, but that has nothing to do with the OP's proposed improvement.
It's also arguably wrong; a 4E Monk can (but doesn't have to) take Fireball two levels earlier than a third caster could, or two levels later than a half caster could (except that Paladins can't take it, and neither can most Artificers, with the exception of the Artillerist). While full casters can get it sooner; they're full casters so this shouldn't surprise you, as getting better spells sooner is literally the whole point of being a full caster.
Ultimately it doesn't matter what a full caster can or could do at the same level; if you want some long range AoE damage then Fireball is a perfectly good option for the opening salvos of a battle, and it doesn't even prevent a 4E Monk from closing the distance to switch to melee at the same time. No everyone's groups will properly support using fireball, mine certainly don't, and for that reason I prefer shorter range 4E options and upcasting lower level disciplines, but some people will prefer something else.
But can we please just put this fireball crap to rest? Unless you're proposing a way to fix them, then why mention it at all (and importantly, why repeat it for two full pages)?
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
I did try to steer back to the original convo with my pact slots comments.
I think that's the best way to make the 4e monk unique is to go that route and just let them pick spells from the sorcerer list.
but it doesn't fix it. it just creates the same problem that EK suffer from. But pretending it's better because it's Warlock Mix instead of Wizard Mix.
Which is exactly what I said before. It's not a fix to the problem. It's just a different problem. Sure you can use your Ki abilities on more monk things. But it doesn't blend into Monk in the way your advocating for any more than the current system does. And it means they can do things less and in ways that do not mix with Monk. And when you are being monk you have more points to spend on Monk things. But you end up with less things to spend them on and nothing that isn't core monk. Which is just a different version of the complaint that it doesn't mix but in the other direction.