My point was and is that fireball for 4e monk is not great especially at the level you get it.
You've said so multiple times already, but that has nothing to do with the OP's proposed improvement.
It's also arguably wrong; a 4E Monk can (but doesn't have to) take Fireball two levels earlier than a third caster could, or two levels later than a half caster could (except that Paladins can't take it, and neither can most Artificers, with the exception of the Artillerist). While full casters can get it sooner; they're full casters so this shouldn't surprise you, as getting better spells sooner is literally the whole point of being a full caster.
Ultimately it doesn't matter what a full caster can or could do at the same level; if you want some long range AoE damage then Fireball is a perfectly good option for the opening salvos of a battle, and it doesn't even prevent a 4E Monk from closing the distance to switch to melee at the same time. No everyone's groups will properly support using fireball, mine certainly don't, and for that reason I prefer shorter range 4E options and upcasting lower level disciplines, but some people will prefer something else.
But can we please just put this fireball crap to rest? Unless you're proposing a way to fix them, then why mention it at all (and importantly, why repeat it for two full pages)?
I did try to steer back to the original convo with my pact slots comments.
I think that's the best way to make the 4e monk unique is to go that route and just let them pick spells from the sorcerer list.
but it doesn't fix it. it just creates the same problem that EK suffer from. But pretending it's better because it's Warlock Mix instead of Wizard Mix.
Which is exactly what I said before. It's not a fix to the problem. It's just a different problem. Sure you can use your Ki abilities on more monk things. But it doesn't blend into Monk in the way your advocating for any more than the current system does. And it means they can do things less and in ways that do not mix with Monk. And when you are being monk you have more points to spend on Monk things. But you end up with less things to spend them on and nothing that isn't core monk. Which is just a different version of the complaint that it doesn't mix but in the other direction.
It does fix the issue of Ki as you have two slots to use on your subclass spells that would not be using Ki.
If you make it so you can still cast with Ki AFTER they use the slots it gives even more flexibility and honestly makes more sense.
My point was and is that fireball for 4e monk is not great especially at the level you get it.
You've said so multiple times already, but that has nothing to do with the OP's proposed improvement.
It's also arguably wrong; a 4E Monk can (but doesn't have to) take Fireball two levels earlier than a third caster could, or two levels later than a half caster could (except that Paladins can't take it, and neither can most Artificers, with the exception of the Artillerist). While full casters can get it sooner; they're full casters so this shouldn't surprise you, as getting better spells sooner is literally the whole point of being a full caster.
Ultimately it doesn't matter what a full caster can or could do at the same level; if you want some long range AoE damage then Fireball is a perfectly good option for the opening salvos of a battle, and it doesn't even prevent a 4E Monk from closing the distance to switch to melee at the same time. No everyone's groups will properly support using fireball, mine certainly don't, and for that reason I prefer shorter range 4E options and upcasting lower level disciplines, but some people will prefer something else.
But can we please just put this fireball crap to rest? Unless you're proposing a way to fix them, then why mention it at all (and importantly, why repeat it for two full pages)?
I did try to steer back to the original convo with my pact slots comments.
I think that's the best way to make the 4e monk unique is to go that route and just let them pick spells from the sorcerer list.
but it doesn't fix it. it just creates the same problem that EK suffer from. But pretending it's better because it's Warlock Mix instead of Wizard Mix.
Which is exactly what I said before. It's not a fix to the problem. It's just a different problem. Sure you can use your Ki abilities on more monk things. But it doesn't blend into Monk in the way your advocating for any more than the current system does. And it means they can do things less and in ways that do not mix with Monk. And when you are being monk you have more points to spend on Monk things. But you end up with less things to spend them on and nothing that isn't core monk. Which is just a different version of the complaint that it doesn't mix but in the other direction.
It does fix the issue of Ki as you have two slots to use on your subclass spells that would not be using Ki.
If you make it so you can still cast with Ki AFTER they use the slots it gives even more flexibility and honestly makes more sense.
There is no reason to give them Ki Casting if your giving them spell slots... And mixing the two does not make sense... Since your taking the casting from the Warlock now and warlocks don't have any kind of feature like that. Then there is no reason for a monk to do that.
Also. One thing I haven't covered but it should be obvious. Warlock Spell slots create the problem that they do not function with non-spell elemental disciplines. If you turn them into spells you take away one of their strengths... If you make them still work with Ki... then your running into the situation that your not really mixing Warlock in again just like Ki Casting for additional spell slots.
My point was and is that fireball for 4e monk is not great especially at the level you get it.
You've said so multiple times already, but that has nothing to do with the OP's proposed improvement.
It's also arguably wrong; a 4E Monk can (but doesn't have to) take Fireball two levels earlier than a third caster could, or two levels later than a half caster could (except that Paladins can't take it, and neither can most Artificers, with the exception of the Artillerist). While full casters can get it sooner; they're full casters so this shouldn't surprise you, as getting better spells sooner is literally the whole point of being a full caster.
Ultimately it doesn't matter what a full caster can or could do at the same level; if you want some long range AoE damage then Fireball is a perfectly good option for the opening salvos of a battle, and it doesn't even prevent a 4E Monk from closing the distance to switch to melee at the same time. No everyone's groups will properly support using fireball, mine certainly don't, and for that reason I prefer shorter range 4E options and upcasting lower level disciplines, but some people will prefer something else.
But can we please just put this fireball crap to rest? Unless you're proposing a way to fix them, then why mention it at all (and importantly, why repeat it for two full pages)?
I did try to steer back to the original convo with my pact slots comments.
I think that's the best way to make the 4e monk unique is to go that route and just let them pick spells from the sorcerer list.
but it doesn't fix it. it just creates the same problem that EK suffer from. But pretending it's better because it's Warlock Mix instead of Wizard Mix.
Which is exactly what I said before. It's not a fix to the problem. It's just a different problem. Sure you can use your Ki abilities on more monk things. But it doesn't blend into Monk in the way your advocating for any more than the current system does. And it means they can do things less and in ways that do not mix with Monk. And when you are being monk you have more points to spend on Monk things. But you end up with less things to spend them on and nothing that isn't core monk. Which is just a different version of the complaint that it doesn't mix but in the other direction.
It does fix the issue of Ki as you have two slots to use on your subclass spells that would not be using Ki.
If you make it so you can still cast with Ki AFTER they use the slots it gives even more flexibility and honestly makes more sense.
There is no reason to give them Ki Casting if your giving them spell slots... And mixing the two does not make sense... Since your taking the casting from the Warlock now and warlocks don't have any kind of feature like that. Then there is no reason for a monk to do that.
Also. One thing I haven't covered but it should be obvious. Warlock Spell slots create the problem that they do not function with non-spell elemental disciplines. If you turn them into spells you take away one of their strengths... If you make them still work with Ki... then your running into the situation that your not really mixing Warlock in again just like Ki Casting for additional spell slots.
This happens a lot now only its related to PB number of uses so its already pretty much a thing.
Circle of Stars is an example.....you get PB number of free casting of the spell, you have it on your list and can cast it using slots as normal.
You simply make the Monk Disciplines a spell they can cast as part of their kit but only they have access to. You can have them scale with the spell level just like they do with ki.
You could also let them use the Monk Disciplines a number of times equal to PB per short rest and then again using Ki. You could upcast the "free" castings with ki as normal.
My point was and is that fireball for 4e monk is not great especially at the level you get it.
You've said so multiple times already, but that has nothing to do with the OP's proposed improvement.
It's also arguably wrong; a 4E Monk can (but doesn't have to) take Fireball two levels earlier than a third caster could, or two levels later than a half caster could (except that Paladins can't take it, and neither can most Artificers, with the exception of the Artillerist). While full casters can get it sooner; they're full casters so this shouldn't surprise you, as getting better spells sooner is literally the whole point of being a full caster.
Ultimately it doesn't matter what a full caster can or could do at the same level; if you want some long range AoE damage then Fireball is a perfectly good option for the opening salvos of a battle, and it doesn't even prevent a 4E Monk from closing the distance to switch to melee at the same time. No everyone's groups will properly support using fireball, mine certainly don't, and for that reason I prefer shorter range 4E options and upcasting lower level disciplines, but some people will prefer something else.
But can we please just put this fireball crap to rest? Unless you're proposing a way to fix them, then why mention it at all (and importantly, why repeat it for two full pages)?
I did try to steer back to the original convo with my pact slots comments.
I think that's the best way to make the 4e monk unique is to go that route and just let them pick spells from the sorcerer list.
but it doesn't fix it. it just creates the same problem that EK suffer from. But pretending it's better because it's Warlock Mix instead of Wizard Mix.
Which is exactly what I said before. It's not a fix to the problem. It's just a different problem. Sure you can use your Ki abilities on more monk things. But it doesn't blend into Monk in the way your advocating for any more than the current system does. And it means they can do things less and in ways that do not mix with Monk. And when you are being monk you have more points to spend on Monk things. But you end up with less things to spend them on and nothing that isn't core monk. Which is just a different version of the complaint that it doesn't mix but in the other direction.
It does fix the issue of Ki as you have two slots to use on your subclass spells that would not be using Ki.
If you make it so you can still cast with Ki AFTER they use the slots it gives even more flexibility and honestly makes more sense.
There is no reason to give them Ki Casting if your giving them spell slots... And mixing the two does not make sense... Since your taking the casting from the Warlock now and warlocks don't have any kind of feature like that. Then there is no reason for a monk to do that.
Also. One thing I haven't covered but it should be obvious. Warlock Spell slots create the problem that they do not function with non-spell elemental disciplines. If you turn them into spells you take away one of their strengths... If you make them still work with Ki... then your running into the situation that your not really mixing Warlock in again just like Ki Casting for additional spell slots.
This happens a lot now only its related to PB number of uses so its already pretty much a thing.
Circle of Stars is an example.....you get PB number of free casting of the spell, you have it on your list and can cast it using slots as normal.
You simply make the Monk Disciplines a spell they can cast as part of their kit but only they have access to. You can have them scale with the spell level just like they do with ki.
You could also let them use the Monk Disciplines a number of times equal to PB per short rest and then again using Ki. You could upcast the "free" castings with ki as normal.
PB number of uses is over hyped. It's better than once or twice a day that many other classes work under... but it's often worse than other resource forms (besides limited spell casting that is). And it's way worse than the potential of classes like MOnk with fast refreshing resources and a large pool of resources combined.
Also there is the issue that Using Ki for additional is not well supported. the only thing that even comes close to that is UA material. UA material that I might add that it's seeming more and more like they are less than inclined to actually implement the more time that passes between those UA's and anything released. And upcasting anything with PB number of uses is competely unsupported in every way. Even in things like the UA's that are introducing Variants of the PB number of uses a day systems.
My point was and is that fireball for 4e monk is not great especially at the level you get it.
You've said so multiple times already, but that has nothing to do with the OP's proposed improvement.
It's also arguably wrong; a 4E Monk can (but doesn't have to) take Fireball two levels earlier than a third caster could, or two levels later than a half caster could (except that Paladins can't take it, and neither can most Artificers, with the exception of the Artillerist). While full casters can get it sooner; they're full casters so this shouldn't surprise you, as getting better spells sooner is literally the whole point of being a full caster.
Ultimately it doesn't matter what a full caster can or could do at the same level; if you want some long range AoE damage then Fireball is a perfectly good option for the opening salvos of a battle, and it doesn't even prevent a 4E Monk from closing the distance to switch to melee at the same time. No everyone's groups will properly support using fireball, mine certainly don't, and for that reason I prefer shorter range 4E options and upcasting lower level disciplines, but some people will prefer something else.
But can we please just put this fireball crap to rest? Unless you're proposing a way to fix them, then why mention it at all (and importantly, why repeat it for two full pages)?
I did try to steer back to the original convo with my pact slots comments.
I think that's the best way to make the 4e monk unique is to go that route and just let them pick spells from the sorcerer list.
but it doesn't fix it. it just creates the same problem that EK suffer from. But pretending it's better because it's Warlock Mix instead of Wizard Mix.
Which is exactly what I said before. It's not a fix to the problem. It's just a different problem. Sure you can use your Ki abilities on more monk things. But it doesn't blend into Monk in the way your advocating for any more than the current system does. And it means they can do things less and in ways that do not mix with Monk. And when you are being monk you have more points to spend on Monk things. But you end up with less things to spend them on and nothing that isn't core monk. Which is just a different version of the complaint that it doesn't mix but in the other direction.
It does fix the issue of Ki as you have two slots to use on your subclass spells that would not be using Ki.
If you make it so you can still cast with Ki AFTER they use the slots it gives even more flexibility and honestly makes more sense.
There is no reason to give them Ki Casting if your giving them spell slots... And mixing the two does not make sense... Since your taking the casting from the Warlock now and warlocks don't have any kind of feature like that. Then there is no reason for a monk to do that.
Also. One thing I haven't covered but it should be obvious. Warlock Spell slots create the problem that they do not function with non-spell elemental disciplines. If you turn them into spells you take away one of their strengths... If you make them still work with Ki... then your running into the situation that your not really mixing Warlock in again just like Ki Casting for additional spell slots.
This happens a lot now only its related to PB number of uses so its already pretty much a thing.
Circle of Stars is an example.....you get PB number of free casting of the spell, you have it on your list and can cast it using slots as normal.
You simply make the Monk Disciplines a spell they can cast as part of their kit but only they have access to. You can have them scale with the spell level just like they do with ki.
You could also let them use the Monk Disciplines a number of times equal to PB per short rest and then again using Ki. You could upcast the "free" castings with ki as normal.
PB number of uses is over hyped. It's better than once or twice a day that many other classes work under... but it's often worse than other resource forms (besides limited spell casting that is). And it's way worse than the potential of classes like MOnk with fast refreshing resources and a large pool of resources combined.
Also there is the issue that Using Ki for additional is not well supported. the only thing that even comes close to that is UA material. UA material that I might add that it's seeming more and more like they are less than inclined to actually implement the more time that passes between those UA's and anything released. And upcasting anything with PB number of uses is competely unsupported in every way. Even in things like the UA's that are introducing Variants of the PB number of uses a day systems.
Since it would be a straight up addition to the Ki it would be pretty much the same but with free uses. Would allow you to be more likely to use the 4E spells/abilities more often.
Yes the UA Dragon monk did use this exact formula and from what I can tell people were supportive of the idea and I think its a brilliant move forward.
Upcasting is not currently a thing but it for sure can be with some imagination and trial/error.
My point was and is that fireball for 4e monk is not great especially at the level you get it.
You've said so multiple times already, but that has nothing to do with the OP's proposed improvement.
It's also arguably wrong; a 4E Monk can (but doesn't have to) take Fireball two levels earlier than a third caster could, or two levels later than a half caster could (except that Paladins can't take it, and neither can most Artificers, with the exception of the Artillerist). While full casters can get it sooner; they're full casters so this shouldn't surprise you, as getting better spells sooner is literally the whole point of being a full caster.
Ultimately it doesn't matter what a full caster can or could do at the same level; if you want some long range AoE damage then Fireball is a perfectly good option for the opening salvos of a battle, and it doesn't even prevent a 4E Monk from closing the distance to switch to melee at the same time. No everyone's groups will properly support using fireball, mine certainly don't, and for that reason I prefer shorter range 4E options and upcasting lower level disciplines, but some people will prefer something else.
But can we please just put this fireball crap to rest? Unless you're proposing a way to fix them, then why mention it at all (and importantly, why repeat it for two full pages)?
I did try to steer back to the original convo with my pact slots comments.
I think that's the best way to make the 4e monk unique is to go that route and just let them pick spells from the sorcerer list.
but it doesn't fix it. it just creates the same problem that EK suffer from. But pretending it's better because it's Warlock Mix instead of Wizard Mix.
Which is exactly what I said before. It's not a fix to the problem. It's just a different problem. Sure you can use your Ki abilities on more monk things. But it doesn't blend into Monk in the way your advocating for any more than the current system does. And it means they can do things less and in ways that do not mix with Monk. And when you are being monk you have more points to spend on Monk things. But you end up with less things to spend them on and nothing that isn't core monk. Which is just a different version of the complaint that it doesn't mix but in the other direction.
It does fix the issue of Ki as you have two slots to use on your subclass spells that would not be using Ki.
If you make it so you can still cast with Ki AFTER they use the slots it gives even more flexibility and honestly makes more sense.
There is no reason to give them Ki Casting if your giving them spell slots... And mixing the two does not make sense... Since your taking the casting from the Warlock now and warlocks don't have any kind of feature like that. Then there is no reason for a monk to do that.
Also. One thing I haven't covered but it should be obvious. Warlock Spell slots create the problem that they do not function with non-spell elemental disciplines. If you turn them into spells you take away one of their strengths... If you make them still work with Ki... then your running into the situation that your not really mixing Warlock in again just like Ki Casting for additional spell slots.
This happens a lot now only its related to PB number of uses so its already pretty much a thing.
Circle of Stars is an example.....you get PB number of free casting of the spell, you have it on your list and can cast it using slots as normal.
You simply make the Monk Disciplines a spell they can cast as part of their kit but only they have access to. You can have them scale with the spell level just like they do with ki.
You could also let them use the Monk Disciplines a number of times equal to PB per short rest and then again using Ki. You could upcast the "free" castings with ki as normal.
PB number of uses is over hyped. It's better than once or twice a day that many other classes work under... but it's often worse than other resource forms (besides limited spell casting that is). And it's way worse than the potential of classes like MOnk with fast refreshing resources and a large pool of resources combined.
Also there is the issue that Using Ki for additional is not well supported. the only thing that even comes close to that is UA material. UA material that I might add that it's seeming more and more like they are less than inclined to actually implement the more time that passes between those UA's and anything released. And upcasting anything with PB number of uses is competely unsupported in every way. Even in things like the UA's that are introducing Variants of the PB number of uses a day systems.
Since it would be a straight up addition to the Ki it would be pretty much the same but with free uses. Would allow you to be more likely to use the 4E spells/abilities more often.
Yes the UA Dragon monk did use this exact formula and from what I can tell people were supportive of the idea and I think its a brilliant move forward.
Upcasting is not currently a thing but it for sure can be with some imagination and trial/error.
A little bit of extra ki does the same thing. As does giving the 4 elements monk a bit more Elemental Disciplines to use in general. Which is another problem that spell slots doesn't fix. Which we can do without overhauling the new system. Pulling in other mechanics or even UA only mechanics and trial and erroring a whole new system to replace what is mostly a unique system to begin with by using a bunch of pieces people are more familiar with but to an extent complain about anyway, are still getting used to, and or have never used to begin with.
We can Take what is there and fix it and still have something unique and interesting. Just plain having a few more Elemental Disciplines that aren't strictly spells would be great. If we could convince WotC to make more things like fist of unbroken air and water whip and Fangs of the fire Snake it would help immensely. In practice those are actually the discplines most people to take to begin with. Fireball is a novelty and an excuse to hate on 4 elements monk more than anything. Most people take other things that are lower cost for the majority of what they do that are scalable. I've seen people actually completely skip fireball because the only way they can use it is to bomb their party and their party gets mad at any kind of friendly fire, even if justified or if the party can handle it.
And the Bonus to fixing what we have besides it actually being rather unique which should be considered a boon. We aren't just trading out weaknesses. We're actually fixing weaknesses. But Much of these answers. Don't really allow things to be used more often unless we really go to levels of broken in massive combinations by giving free uses, Giving spell casting on Par with full Warlocks, and using brand new mechanics that don't really exist elsewhere on top of all of that.
4 elements monks are not exactly weak. They could be more. and the more is not a bad thing. But they are pretty damned strong. I really wish people could see that instead of just finding any and every reason they could to bash on them. yes they have some weaknesses. But they've got some surprises. It's part of why I advocate for them. My current one has been keeping up with an Echo Knight for the most part and he's fairly min-maxed into combat. Though he sets up easier than my character does. So he wins if it's a hard fight that goes quick. I'm not gonna deny that. But we both affect combat in a big way in tier 2. Even though I'm often told that my character is weak when people hear what it is just as a rote throw away statement.
It does fix the issue of Ki as you have two slots to use on your subclass spells that would not be using Ki.
If you make it so you can still cast with Ki AFTER they use the slots it gives even more flexibility and honestly makes more sense.
There is no reason to give them Ki Casting if your giving them spell slots... And mixing the two does not make sense... Since your taking the casting from the Warlock now and warlocks don't have any kind of feature like that. Then there is no reason for a monk to do that.
Also. One thing I haven't covered but it should be obvious. Warlock Spell slots create the problem that they do not function with non-spell elemental disciplines. If you turn them into spells you take away one of their strengths... If you make them still work with Ki... then your running into the situation that your not really mixing Warlock in again just like Ki Casting for additional spell slots.
This happens a lot now only its related to PB number of uses so its already pretty much a thing.
Circle of Stars is an example.....you get PB number of free casting of the spell, you have it on your list and can cast it using slots as normal.
You simply make the Monk Disciplines a spell they can cast as part of their kit but only they have access to. You can have them scale with the spell level just like they do with ki.
You could also let them use the Monk Disciplines a number of times equal to PB per short rest and then again using Ki. You could upcast the "free" castings with ki as normal.
PB number of uses is over hyped. It's better than once or twice a day that many other classes work under... but it's often worse than other resource forms (besides limited spell casting that is). And it's way worse than the potential of classes like MOnk with fast refreshing resources and a large pool of resources combined.
Also there is the issue that Using Ki for additional is not well supported. the only thing that even comes close to that is UA material. UA material that I might add that it's seeming more and more like they are less than inclined to actually implement the more time that passes between those UA's and anything released. And upcasting anything with PB number of uses is competely unsupported in every way. Even in things like the UA's that are introducing Variants of the PB number of uses a day systems.
Since it would be a straight up addition to the Ki it would be pretty much the same but with free uses. Would allow you to be more likely to use the 4E spells/abilities more often.
Yes the UA Dragon monk did use this exact formula and from what I can tell people were supportive of the idea and I think its a brilliant move forward.
Upcasting is not currently a thing but it for sure can be with some imagination and trial/error.
A little bit of extra ki does the same thing. As does giving the 4 elements monk a bit more Elemental Disciplines to use in general. Which is another problem that spell slots doesn't fix. Which we can do without overhauling the new system. Pulling in other mechanics or even UA only mechanics and trial and erroring a whole new system to replace what is mostly a unique system to begin with by using a bunch of pieces people are more familiar with but to an extent complain about anyway, are still getting used to, and or have never used to begin with.
We can Take what is there and fix it and still have something unique and interesting. Just plain having a few more Elemental Disciplines that aren't strictly spells would be great. If we could convince WotC to make more things like fist of unbroken air and water whip and Fangs of the fire Snake it would help immensely. In practice those are actually the discplines most people to take to begin with. Fireball is a novelty and an excuse to hate on 4 elements monk more than anything. Most people take other things that are lower cost for the majority of what they do that are scalable. I've seen people actually completely skip fireball because the only way they can use it is to bomb their party and their party gets mad at any kind of friendly fire, even if justified or if the party can handle it.
And the Bonus to fixing what we have besides it actually being rather unique which should be considered a boon. We aren't just trading out weaknesses. We're actually fixing weaknesses. But Much of these answers. Don't really allow things to be used more often unless we really go to levels of broken in massive combinations by giving free uses, Giving spell casting on Par with full Warlocks, and using brand new mechanics that don't really exist elsewhere on top of all of that.
4 elements monks are not exactly weak. They could be more. and the more is not a bad thing. But they are pretty damned strong. I really wish people could see that instead of just finding any and every reason they could to bash on them. yes they have some weaknesses. But they've got some surprises. It's part of why I advocate for them. My current one has been keeping up with an Echo Knight for the most part and he's fairly min-maxed into combat. Though he sets up easier than my character does. So he wins if it's a hard fight that goes quick. I'm not gonna deny that. But we both affect combat in a big way in tier 2. Even though I'm often told that my character is weak when people hear what it is just as a rote throw away statement.
Overall it seems we all agree it needs a fix but divided on how to do it.