How would you translate real world martial arts into monk levels? Yes I know it’s fantasy but I’m thinking of sticking my players into the dnd world as themselves and several have martial arts skills. I see 2 basic ways: match the 20 levels of dnd to the 20 belt levels between white belt and 10th Dan or declare that colored belts get the empty hand fighting style and black belt ranks match to monk levels limiting them to level 10 down (realistically levels 1 or 2. Im open to other ideas Any thoughts?
You don't. Even a 2nd level monk is superior to most if not all real life martial artists. By level 3 it's pretty much super hero stuff and it just gets worse (or better) from there.
To some extent your right but for most of the abilities levels 1-11 there is a real world basis for the ability that I would allow to be expanded into the monk ability in the transition.
some examples:
Martial arts: point 1 use dex instead of strength - notice it doesn't say you have to just that you can. a style like Shotakan is a very strength centered style while a style like Akido is much more dex based. Ideally you would have high stats in both and many martial artists would have both strength and dex of 13-15. point 2: 1D4 +str/dex for damage. boxing and most fighting teaches you to hit at the surface, this does fairly minimal damage, martial arts teaches (via board beaking etc) to hit through the surface doing much more damage. I had a fight in HS where I broke the other guys nose on the first punch with a cross that I didn't even know haad connected because I drove through the nose from side to side. if I had been hitting to the surface and not driving through he would have gotten a bloody nose but not a broken one. This brings up my complaint with the empty hand fighting style - it should start at the D4 just like the monk and grow with levels at the same rate - no other class should be able to do as much or especially more open hand damage per blow than the monk - ever. point 3: bonus action open hand attack - this is all about the basic combinations and followups that are taught in sparring in every martial art I've taken.
Ki: while I don't pretend to understand what ki is or even if it is the term is not a bad one for a number of subtle effects of matching breathing and muscle relaxation/tightening to your actions to get maximum effect. the Ki points increasing with level and your ability to use them in more refined/subtle/useful ways is not out of the realm of what regular martial arts teaches (at least if you have a good instructor)
Unarmored Movement: are martial artists really faster across the ground? maybe not but because they have trained their reflexes and bodies to react and change positions faster than most folks and aren't being slowed down by the weight of armor they probably do move significantly faster than a fighter with his armor even if the trained reactions are the same speed. so ill accept it. Also I've seen masters who could move across a room faster than I could do 3-4 blocks.
Monastic tradition: how many different styles of "oriental martial arts" are there? need I say more? Deflect missiles: I've never tried arrows and I'm not ever going to try bullets but I have deflected spears thrown at me and fast spinning things like frisbees and purposefully dulled shurikens and I'm still far from my first black belt.
Slow Fall: I think they have the skill written wrong its not really about the contact with the wall really slowing you that mu8ch although sliding down a wall will keep the speed and energy down somewhat. its more about knowing how to land in such a way that the forces of impact are spread out over enough time that your body can absorb them without damage. I've done a 35' drop onto packed sand and walked away without injury because of my training in landing and rolling from martial arts. that pretty well matches what you would expect from a 4th level monk (3-4 D6 damage max 18-24 points, slow fall reduces it by 5 xL4 = 20 points) extra attack: while some of this is just for the mechanics of the game but we have all seen instructors that are simply able to get in strikes faster than we can and some can reach 2 to your 1 regularly. Stunning Strike: At least some of this is knowing where to hit and having the accuracy to hit it properly, that includes a knowledge of pressure points and knowing how hard to hit places like the back of the neck and temples. Ki empowered strikes - ok I'll grant you this is strictly a DND world thing as we have no way of telling if if some masters hands would act as magical weapons. Evasion: this is all about honed honed reactions and adrenaline rush and being able to think and act fast enough to to avoid or change the outcome of something most folks wouldn't. I've had times where pulled this off more or less - mostly with a couple of car accidents that should of killed folks but my reactions changed the outcome so that while the cars were damaged and we were all shocked and scared no one was hurt.
I'll stop there as the post is getting long but similar arguments could be made for many of the monastic tradition abilities up to Level 11.
there are subclasses like 4 elements and sun soul that I wouldn't allow as they are almost wholly magic centric.
Unless they are heavily trained in martial arts, awarding the Tavern Brawler feat or Unarmed Fighting fighting style as a free buff may be more appropriate.
One thing to consider about a monk is that the whole package has a huge athletic boost, being able to run and jump and dodge quickly. To make it simple, consider the following Tiers and ask yourself if your friends can do these things (Note that I will be ignoring a BUNCH of monk features to make these tiers, but its a very basic guide)
What Do I think they can do in 6 seconds (1 turn)
Level 1 Monk: Throw Two Punches and move 30 feet OR move 60 feet
Level 2-4 Monk: Throw Three Punches and move 30 feet OR Throw One Punch and move 60 feet OR move 90 feet*
Level 5-8 Monk: Throw Four Punches and move 30 feet OR Throw Two Punches and move 60 feet OR move 90 feet*
Level 9+ monk: Basically a superhero as you are now able to run up to 30 feet across water or along a wall without issue.
These tiers are only defined on your movement and how many attacks you make over the span of 6 seconds. It does not even consider the other goodies monks get to play with
*for context, if I did my math correctly, being able to run at a 90ft/6s pace would set someone at completing a 100m dash in less than 22 seconds.
ok, 30 feet is 9.1 meters, my dojang is about 30 feet long (space for 5 6' spaces for us to social distance in) and I regularly do runs the length of the room with punches at either end in about 6 seconds (at least before I wear out - not exactly in the shape I was in 40+ years ago) so tier one accomplished. the fastest I ever got times running (9th grade track mile was 6 minutes so about 4.5 meters/sec so 9 meters/2sec which is 30ft/2 sec or 90 feet in 6 seconds so that covers the other levels up thru 8. could I do it now at 65? no like I said I'm out of shape these days but looking at what is possible not just what I can do now. world record is 9.5 seconds for the 100m so less than a second for 30 m., granted we are talking Usain Bolt here but...
do modern martial artists translate directly into the DND world? no better than priests, survival campers, Navy Seals/Special Forces, SCA members, etc. but moving into that world you get suffused with that magic and what you have is transformed to fit the new world is how I see it so if you have skills they are molded/altered to fit the world (take a look at some of the old Fafhrd and Grey Mouser stories for examples)
What I'm saying is that many of the abilities of Level 1-11 DND monks can be matched to our world martial arts skills more or less. the problem is they may not be in the best order for translating and colored belt ranks (especially the first 4-5) really don't translate well while there are those like me that have a fair amount of overall experience but not focused in any one style so no black belt but a fair amount of actual skill.. I've also seen blackbelts of the same rank with very different skill levels because of the quality of their training and how they earned the belts (time vs work) the DND world realistically still uses Student - Prophet - Master - grand master rankings with the basis for the colored belts - sweat staining of the belt from the practice done not the time put in.
I think I am with you on the tavern brawler/Unarmed fighting for lower level colored belts nothing for 10th and 9th kyu, maybe tavern brawler for 8-6 kyu and unarmed fighting for 5-1 kyu with black belts being L1 monks. folks like me with lots of years scattered over lots of styles I'll just have to figure out on an individual basis.
I was looking to see if anyone else had some ideas about how to make the translation especially for upper colored belts that have some real skill but
Unless they are heavily trained in martial arts, awarding the Tavern Brawler feat or Unarmed Fighting fighting style as a free buff may be more appropriate.
One thing to consider about a monk is that the whole package has a huge athletic boost, being able to run and jump and dodge quickly. To make it simple, consider the following Tiers and ask yourself if your friends can do these things (Note that I will be ignoring a BUNCH of monk features to make these tiers, but its a very basic guide)
What Do I think they can do in 6 seconds (1 turn)
Level 1 Monk: Throw Two Punches and move 30 feet OR move 60 feet
Level 2-4 Monk: Throw Three Punches and move 30 feet OR Throw One Punch and move 60 feet OR move 90 feet*
Level 5-8 Monk: Throw Four Punches and move 30 feet OR Throw Two Punches and move 60 feet OR move 90 feet*
Level 9+ monk: Basically a superhero as you are now able to run up to 30 feet across water or along a wall without issue.
These tiers are only defined on your movement and how many attacks you make over the span of 6 seconds. It does not even consider the other goodies monks get to play with
*for context, if I did my math correctly, being able to run at a 90ft/6s pace would set someone at completing a 100m dash in less than 22 seconds.
You forgot unarmoured movement increases your movement speed by 10 so double dashing would get your speed to 120ft in 6 sec still a lot slower than most NFL prospects (where many break 4.5 sec for the 40yd dash).
Unless they are heavily trained in martial arts, awarding the Tavern Brawler feat or Unarmed Fighting fighting style as a free buff may be more appropriate.
One thing to consider about a monk is that the whole package has a huge athletic boost, being able to run and jump and dodge quickly. To make it simple, consider the following Tiers and ask yourself if your friends can do these things (Note that I will be ignoring a BUNCH of monk features to make these tiers, but its a very basic guide)
What Do I think they can do in 6 seconds (1 turn)
Level 1 Monk: Throw Two Punches and move 30 feet OR move 60 feet
Level 2-4 Monk: Throw Three Punches and move 30 feet OR Throw One Punch and move 60 feet OR move 90 feet*
Level 5-8 Monk: Throw Four Punches and move 30 feet OR Throw Two Punches and move 60 feet OR move 90 feet*
Level 9+ monk: Basically a superhero as you are now able to run up to 30 feet across water or along a wall without issue.
These tiers are only defined on your movement and how many attacks you make over the span of 6 seconds. It does not even consider the other goodies monks get to play with
*for context, if I did my math correctly, being able to run at a 90ft/6s pace would set someone at completing a 100m dash in less than 22 seconds.
You forgot unarmoured movement increases your movement speed by 10 so double dashing would get your speed to 120ft in 6 sec still a lot slower than most NFL prospects (where many break 4.5 sec for the 40yd dash).
True. I did forget to add that
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something I'd like to point out. Many NPC's do not get higher than level 10. Those few that do are often considered masters of their craft. And those that reach 15 or 20 are Widely known heroes or basically living legends (until they die then they are just legends). While this gets fudged somewhat in many high level campaigns because they may give you some kind of npc or companion to do some task that is of similar level to the threat for survivability. if your getting a bit more real. The more above 10 you get. the more likely your actually getting help from and/or protecting a lower level character in essence. though when there are a lot more of them or they come with their own masses of people lower than them that can make up the difference.
They also tend to be at their peak when they are adventuring. But the game is simplified to the point that it doesn't take into account those people that retire and are no longer at their peak. But that's always been a bit of an issue with most versions of D&D.
Much of the problem is, I think, that most of our martial arts today is based on cost not effort. You pay for a couple of 1 hour lessons a week and more or less expect your black belt in 3-4 years. Where someone working under the ancient student, prophet, master system might have spent 8 hours a day for 12 years to go from student to prophet(black belt). What you can expect from the 2 black belts is very different. I’ve been blessed to have had 4 instructors scattered over my experience who pretty much came up the old way and set standards for those that wanted it . In college back in the 70s I took American Goju from master DeMarco for 3-4 years and only progressed from 10 kyu to 7 kyu because he allowed me to try working at the student prophet master training coming in 3-4 times a week. You get what you put in so yes in some case I agree that tavern brawler/unarmed fighting (reworked to match monk martial arts die) is more reasonable for many martial artist especially colored belts. But there are some really dedicated martial artists that would translate into DnD without much problem.
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Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
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How would you translate real world martial arts into monk levels?
Yes I know it’s fantasy but I’m thinking of sticking my players into the dnd world as themselves and several have martial arts skills. I see 2 basic ways: match the 20 levels of dnd to the 20 belt levels between white belt and 10th Dan or declare that colored belts get the empty hand fighting style and black belt ranks match to monk levels limiting them to level 10 down (realistically levels 1 or 2.
Im open to other ideas
Any thoughts?
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
You don't. Even a 2nd level monk is superior to most if not all real life martial artists. By level 3 it's pretty much super hero stuff and it just gets worse (or better) from there.
To some extent your right but for most of the abilities levels 1-11 there is a real world basis for the ability that I would allow to be expanded into the monk ability in the transition.
some examples:
Martial arts: point 1 use dex instead of strength - notice it doesn't say you have to just that you can. a style like Shotakan is a very strength centered style while a style like Akido is much more dex based. Ideally you would have high stats in both and many martial artists would have both strength and dex of 13-15.
point 2: 1D4 +str/dex for damage. boxing and most fighting teaches you to hit at the surface, this does fairly minimal damage, martial arts teaches (via board beaking etc) to hit through the surface doing much more damage. I had a fight in HS where I broke the other guys nose on the first punch with a cross that I didn't even know haad connected because I drove through the nose from side to side. if I had been hitting to the surface and not driving through he would have gotten a bloody nose but not a broken one. This brings up my complaint with the empty hand fighting style - it should start at the D4 just like the monk and grow with levels at the same rate - no other class should be able to do as much or especially more open hand damage per blow than the monk - ever.
point 3: bonus action open hand attack - this is all about the basic combinations and followups that are taught in sparring in every martial art I've taken.
Ki: while I don't pretend to understand what ki is or even if it is the term is not a bad one for a number of subtle effects of matching breathing and muscle relaxation/tightening to your actions to get maximum effect. the Ki points increasing with level and your ability to use them in more refined/subtle/useful ways is not out of the realm of what regular martial arts teaches (at least if you have a good instructor)
Unarmored Movement: are martial artists really faster across the ground? maybe not but because they have trained their reflexes and bodies to react and change positions faster than most folks and aren't being slowed down by the weight of armor they probably do move significantly faster than a fighter with his armor even if the trained reactions are the same speed. so ill accept it. Also I've seen masters who could move across a room faster than I could do 3-4 blocks.
Monastic tradition: how many different styles of "oriental martial arts" are there? need I say more?
Deflect missiles: I've never tried arrows and I'm not ever going to try bullets but I have deflected spears thrown at me and fast spinning things like frisbees and purposefully dulled shurikens and I'm still far from my first black belt.
Slow Fall: I think they have the skill written wrong its not really about the contact with the wall really slowing you that mu8ch although sliding down a wall will keep the speed and energy down somewhat. its more about knowing how to land in such a way that the forces of impact are spread out over enough time that your body can absorb them without damage. I've done a 35' drop onto packed sand and walked away without injury because of my training in landing and rolling from martial arts. that pretty well matches what you would expect from a 4th level monk (3-4 D6 damage max 18-24 points, slow fall reduces it by 5 xL4 = 20 points)
extra attack: while some of this is just for the mechanics of the game but we have all seen instructors that are simply able to get in strikes faster than we can and some can reach 2 to your 1 regularly.
Stunning Strike: At least some of this is knowing where to hit and having the accuracy to hit it properly, that includes a knowledge of pressure points and knowing how hard to hit places like the back of the neck and temples.
Ki empowered strikes - ok I'll grant you this is strictly a DND world thing as we have no way of telling if if some masters hands would act as magical weapons.
Evasion: this is all about honed honed reactions and adrenaline rush and being able to think and act fast enough to to avoid or change the outcome of something most folks wouldn't. I've had times where pulled this off more or less - mostly with a couple of car accidents that should of killed folks but my reactions changed the outcome so that while the cars were damaged and we were all shocked and scared no one was hurt.
I'll stop there as the post is getting long but similar arguments could be made for many of the monastic tradition abilities up to Level 11.
there are subclasses like 4 elements and sun soul that I wouldn't allow as they are almost wholly magic centric.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Unless they are heavily trained in martial arts, awarding the Tavern Brawler feat or Unarmed Fighting fighting style as a free buff may be more appropriate.
One thing to consider about a monk is that the whole package has a huge athletic boost, being able to run and jump and dodge quickly. To make it simple, consider the following Tiers and ask yourself if your friends can do these things (Note that I will be ignoring a BUNCH of monk features to make these tiers, but its a very basic guide)
What Do I think they can do in 6 seconds (1 turn)
Level 1 Monk: Throw Two Punches and move 30 feet OR move 60 feet
Level 2-4 Monk: Throw Three Punches and move 30 feet OR Throw One Punch and move 60 feet OR move 90 feet*
Level 5-8 Monk: Throw Four Punches and move 30 feet OR Throw Two Punches and move 60 feet OR move 90 feet*
Level 9+ monk: Basically a superhero as you are now able to run up to 30 feet across water or along a wall without issue.
These tiers are only defined on your movement and how many attacks you make over the span of 6 seconds. It does not even consider the other goodies monks get to play with
*for context, if I did my math correctly, being able to run at a 90ft/6s pace would set someone at completing a 100m dash in less than 22 seconds.
Four-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews! Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
ok, 30 feet is 9.1 meters, my dojang is about 30 feet long (space for 5 6' spaces for us to social distance in) and I regularly do runs the length of the room with punches at either end in about 6 seconds (at least before I wear out - not exactly in the shape I was in 40+ years ago) so tier one accomplished. the fastest I ever got times running (9th grade track mile was 6 minutes so about 4.5 meters/sec so 9 meters/2sec which is 30ft/2 sec or 90 feet in 6 seconds so that covers the other levels up thru 8. could I do it now at 65? no like I said I'm out of shape these days but looking at what is possible not just what I can do now. world record is 9.5 seconds for the 100m so less than a second for 30 m., granted we are talking Usain Bolt here but...
do modern martial artists translate directly into the DND world? no better than priests, survival campers, Navy Seals/Special Forces, SCA members, etc. but moving into that world you get suffused with that magic and what you have is transformed to fit the new world is how I see it so if you have skills they are molded/altered to fit the world (take a look at some of the old Fafhrd and Grey Mouser stories for examples)
What I'm saying is that many of the abilities of Level 1-11 DND monks can be matched to our world martial arts skills more or less. the problem is they may not be in the best order for translating and colored belt ranks (especially the first 4-5) really don't translate well while there are those like me that have a fair amount of overall experience but not focused in any one style so no black belt but a fair amount of actual skill.. I've also seen blackbelts of the same rank with very different skill levels because of the quality of their training and how they earned the belts (time vs work) the DND world realistically still uses Student - Prophet - Master - grand master rankings with the basis for the colored belts - sweat staining of the belt from the practice done not the time put in.
I think I am with you on the tavern brawler/Unarmed fighting for lower level colored belts nothing for 10th and 9th kyu, maybe tavern brawler for 8-6 kyu and unarmed fighting for 5-1 kyu with black belts being L1 monks. folks like me with lots of years scattered over lots of styles I'll just have to figure out on an individual basis.
I was looking to see if anyone else had some ideas about how to make the translation especially for upper colored belts that have some real skill but
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
You forgot unarmoured movement increases your movement speed by 10 so double dashing would get your speed to 120ft in 6 sec still a lot slower than most NFL prospects (where many break 4.5 sec for the 40yd dash).
True. I did forget to add that
Four-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews! Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
something I'd like to point out. Many NPC's do not get higher than level 10. Those few that do are often considered masters of their craft. And those that reach 15 or 20 are Widely known heroes or basically living legends (until they die then they are just legends). While this gets fudged somewhat in many high level campaigns because they may give you some kind of npc or companion to do some task that is of similar level to the threat for survivability. if your getting a bit more real. The more above 10 you get. the more likely your actually getting help from and/or protecting a lower level character in essence. though when there are a lot more of them or they come with their own masses of people lower than them that can make up the difference.
They also tend to be at their peak when they are adventuring. But the game is simplified to the point that it doesn't take into account those people that retire and are no longer at their peak. But that's always been a bit of an issue with most versions of D&D.
Much of the problem is, I think, that most of our martial arts today is based on cost not effort. You pay for a couple of 1 hour lessons a week and more or less expect your black belt in 3-4 years. Where someone working under the ancient student, prophet, master system might have spent 8 hours a day for 12 years to go from student to prophet(black belt). What you can expect from the 2 black belts is very different. I’ve been blessed to have had 4 instructors scattered over my experience who pretty much came up the old way and set standards for those that wanted it . In college back in the 70s I took American Goju from master DeMarco for 3-4 years and only progressed from 10 kyu to 7 kyu because he allowed me to try working at the student prophet master training coming in 3-4 times a week. You get what you put in so yes in some case I agree that tavern brawler/unarmed fighting (reworked to match monk martial arts die) is more reasonable for many martial artist especially colored belts. But there are some really dedicated martial artists that would translate into DnD without much problem.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.