This is a build that I made specifically for a Tabaxi Monk I'm playing. I tried to keep it power equivalent with other subclasses but I'd like some feedback on that. I'm aware there are a couple of typos, apologies.
This build has changed quite a bit since the original post, this is the current version:
Monks who follow the way of the Puma model their attacks on those of a hunting cat. Preferably attacking from cover, they leap upon their opponents and grapple them ferociously, wearing them down with close attacks and suffocating grips.
Typically, such monks are solitary, following no strict temple structure, but will exchange techniques and information whenever they happen upon each other in their wanderings.
Predator's Grip
3rd-Level Way of the Puma feature
Using the methods of a hunting cat, you leap onto an opponents back to deal deadly damage.
When you successfully attack a creature with an unarmed attack, you can spend one ki point to attempt to seize the creature. The creature must succeed on an acrobatics or athletics check against your acrobatics check. On failure, you have the creature in your predators grip.
The predators grip has the following effects:
You are considered to occupy the same space as the creature for the purposes of area effects.
A creature of your same size or one size larger is considered encumbered. A smaller creature is considered heavily encumbered.
Your study and understanding of the way of hunting cats grants you greater sensitivity to the hunt.
You gain proficiency in Stealth and Survival checks.
Predator's Escape
6th-Level Way of the Puma Feature
If an opponent breaks your Predator's Grip, you may spend a ki point to use your reaction to move out of its melee range without provoking an attack of opportunity.
Worrying Grip
6th-level Way of the Puma feature
Your hunting ferocity begins to wear your opponents down.
Your Predator's Grip has the following additional effects:
A creature that is your size is now heavily encumbered by your predators grip.
A creature that begins its turn in your Predator's Grip must immediately use an action to break the grip or take one martial arts die of damage.
Vicious Predator
11th-Level Way of the Puma Feature
As a reaction, if a creature breaks your Predator's Grip, you can spend one ki point to make an attack of opportunity on that creature.
On a success, you can spend an additional ki point to attempt to reacquire your Predator's Grip as with any attack.
Suffocating Grip
17th-Level Way of the Puma feature
You are now able to drain the very breath from creatures in your Predator's Grip.
As an action on your turn, you can use 3 ki points to add the following effects to your Predator's Grip.
Until the creature breaks the Predator's Grip, they suffer one level of exhaustion at the beginning of each of their turns.
A creature that is one size larger or less than yourself begins suffocating.
Becoming invisible to larger targets is going to be problematic. I see what you are going for but it just doesn't work well. Especially on such a low level as level 3. On higher levels it's just weird. Remember that a restrained creature already has disadvantage on their attack rolls so the Predator's Grip is already really powerful. I'd change it so that you actually have to make a Grapple attack and not just get it for free, though. And it should be the monk's Atheltics roll against the target's Athletics or Acrobatics.
Except for that, I don't see any obvious problems with it. It's gonna bleed Ki points like a wounded gazelle and it pretty much lack any utility features that other subclasses might have but it works.
1. Why do you think it is problematic to be invisible to larger targets? That target is not restrained (it can't be grappled) so the only effect would be the advantage/disadvantage on attack rolls.
2. Why do you think the class would bleed ki points? I was actually worried that it didn't cost enough ki points.
3. Why should it be the monks athletics check? Monks typically use dexterity for unarmed strikes, is it OP to have a one use dexterity for a grapple?
4. Why do you think that the monk should not get the grip "for free"? It's at least one ki point and there's a check, similar to stunning strike.
1. No per turn limit. You could try this with each attack and given that you could have a very high acrobatics score you would likely succeed and restrained is a pretty powerful condition as it is one of the only ways to give even ranged allies ADV on their attacks. While it is not as powerful as Stunned its also a LOT more likely to be imposed as you have more ways to augment your skills than an enemies CON. I would playtest it a bit and see how often it is successful for your group....if its more than 75% of the time its too powerful and should likely be a "once per turn" type of ability.
2. Invisibility while "latched". This is interesting but as others have commented they will already have DIS on attacks to the tabaxi due to restrained so my assumption is you are doing this as a way to combat other abilities that require sight like certain spells or creature abilities that rely on "a creature you can see" ? If so its an interesting way to make that work. I think it adds some mechanical complexity to the attack but ultimately might not impose an advantage in most situations. It might be worth thinking about what you want this ability to achieve on a thematic and mechanical level and sharing that so we have a bit of a better idea on how to help.
The basic idea is to impose the condition of "having a puma on your back". So, if a creature is seized by the monk at level three, it has a puma on its back. At level six, it has a puma on its back and that puma is raking it with its hind legs. At level 11, it has a very tenacious puma on its back, raking it with its hind legs. At level 17, it has a very tenacious puma on its back that is both raking it with its hind legs and crushing its throat.
So the idea is that as the monk increases in level, they just become better at being a puma on someone's back.
On 1: I think that with the tweak below this wouldn't be a problem -- rather than restraining the creature, it simply becomes grappled (if It can be grappled) and provides cover for the monk. So the benefit doesn't go to the entire party.
On 2: the invisibility is meant to deal with the fact that a creature too large to be grappled will not be considered restrained or even grappled, but is still being gripped. Basically, the monk can grab onto a dragon, but that won't stop the dragon from moving freely. It does make it more difficult for the dragon to hit the monk. Does this tweak help?
Predator's Grip
3rd-Level Way of the Puma feature
Using the methods of a hunting cat, you leap onto an opponent to deal deadly damage.
When you successfully attack a creature with an unarmed attack, you can spend one ki point to attempt to seize the creature. The creature must succeed on an acrobatics or athletics check against your acrobatics check or be considered grappled until it is able to break the grip, provided it is a creature that you are able to grapple. A creature that cannot be grappled is still considered held in the grip but is able to move freely, provided they are not burdened by your weight.
1. Why do you think it is problematic to be invisible to larger targets? That target is not restrained (it can't be grappled) so the only effect would be the advantage/disadvantage on attack rolls.
Well, you edited your post but when I wrote my answer you still had it as restrained. There really is no reason why you should become invisible to the target and it makes it extra strong against spellcasters that would need to see the monk to target them with spells. The new version also makes very little sense to give the monk cover. It's just unbalanced, especially at level 17. It basically makes it impossible for the target to get rid of the monk, the only way is to succeed against the grapple.
2. Why do you think the class would bleed ki points? I was actually worried that it didn't cost enough ki points.
You have a lot of opportunities to spend Ki to do things like apply the Grip and re-apply it if the targets brekas lose. That tend to cause the monk to spend a lot of Ki. But since you want to make PG so good, it balances out. But this is probably a thing that will come clear during playtesting.
3. Why should it be the monks athletics check? Monks typically use dexterity for unarmed strikes, is it OP to have a one use dexterity for a grapple?
In short, yes. Or at least unbalanced. Athletics is the skill to use for grapples and the likes, there really is no reason why you should be able to use Acrobatics since that isn't what Acrobatics is all about. Make it a pure Dex roll to at least tone it down a little.
4. Why do you think that the monk should not get the grip "for free"? It's at least one ki point and there's a check, similar to stunning strike.
Because the grip is much more powerful than Stunning Strike, especially at higher levels. Also, since it is contested roll and you want to use one of the Monk's primary abilities it is a lot harder to succeed compared to a Con save. Getting both the attack (which means that you can apply stunning Strike to the attack) AND the Grip makes it really powerful. Especially considering how easy it is for the monk to get Expertise in Acrobatics.
5. Is there a utility feature you would suggest?
Not anything special at the moment. A simple suggestion would be something like proficiency in Survival to show the kind of skills picked up in the wild. Proficiency and/or Expertise in Stealth also makes sense. If I can think of anything better I'll let you know. :)
Well, you edited your post but when I wrote my answer you still had it as restrained. There really is no reason why you should become invisible to the target and it makes it extra strong against spellcasters that would need to see the monk to target them with spells. The new version also makes very little sense to give the monk cover. It's just unbalanced, especially at level 17. It basically makes it impossible for the target to get rid of the monk, the only way is to succeed against the grapple.
So, other than either providing cover or having disadvantage on attacks, how would you represent the condition "you have a puma clinging to your back". From a purely observational standpoint, cover made sense to me--the creature that you are clinging to is actually providing the cover--but I'm open to suggestions.
3. Why should it be the monks athletics check? Monks typically use dexterity for unarmed strikes, is it OP to have a one use dexterity for a grapple?
In short, yes. Or at least unbalanced. Athletics is the skill to use for grapples and the likes, there really is no reason why you should be able to use Acrobatics since that isn't what Acrobatics is all about. Make it a pure Dex roll to at least tone it down a little.
As a grappler myself, I know for absolute certain that people whom I am much stronger than can grapple me with ease because they have greater skill. But regardless of that, when you say to make it a pure Dex roll, do you mean Dex vs. Dex or Strength, or Dex vs Athletics or Acrobatics?
I like the idea of adding a stealth and survival proficiency, it makes sense with this being a subclass focused on the concept of a hunting strike.
I think it creates a "Grapple Monk" that doesn't rely on STR which honestly does hold to 5e standards of Monk and based on the changes I think it looks fairly good as is. The cover was a good solution IMO!
The only thing you might consider is adding an additional rider on at 3rd level as a ribbon or out of combat benefit.
Example: Puma Cunning 3rd-Level Way of the Puma feature
The puma guides your actions
You can spend 1 ki point to get ADV on a Deception (CHA) or Stealth (DEX) check.
So you got something interesting going on here, but I think it is a little bit weak as is. Grappling in and of itself isn't that impactful, all it does is reduce the target's movementspeed to 0. What this class should eventually be able to do is to restrain people instead. Attacks against a restrained creature has advantage, and restrained creatures have disadvantage on attacks.
So you got something interesting going on here, but I think it is a little bit weak as is. Grappling in and of itself isn't that impactful, all it does is reduce the target's movementspeed to 0. What this class should eventually be able to do is to restrain people instead. Attacks against a restrained creature has advantage, and restrained creatures have disadvantage on attacks.
There has also been criticism of this being too strong. Possibly a middle ground would be to essentially give the grappler feat with the dex based grappler: if a creature is in the predator's grip, on a subsequent turn the monk can use their action to make another grapple check to restrain? I'm trying to keep this balanced against other Monk ways.
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This is a build that I made specifically for a Tabaxi Monk I'm playing. I tried to keep it power equivalent with other subclasses but I'd like some feedback on that. I'm aware there are a couple of typos, apologies.
This build has changed quite a bit since the original post, this is the current version:
Monks who follow the way of the Puma model their attacks on those of a hunting cat. Preferably attacking from cover, they leap upon their opponents and grapple them ferociously, wearing them down with close attacks and suffocating grips.
Typically, such monks are solitary, following no strict temple structure, but will exchange techniques and information whenever they happen upon each other in their wanderings.
Predator's Grip
3rd-Level Way of the Puma feature
Using the methods of a hunting cat, you leap onto an opponents back to deal deadly damage.
When you successfully attack a creature with an unarmed attack, you can spend one ki point to attempt to seize the creature. The creature must succeed on an acrobatics or athletics check against your acrobatics check. On failure, you have the creature in your predators grip.
The predators grip has the following effects:
You are considered to occupy the same space as the creature for the purposes of area effects.
A creature of your same size or one size larger is considered encumbered. A smaller creature is considered heavily encumbered.
While you have a creature in Predator's Grip, the creature acts as half cover. This increases to three quarters cover at level 11 and total cover at level 17.
Predator's Vision
3rd-Level Way of the Puma Feature
Your study and understanding of the way of hunting cats grants you greater sensitivity to the hunt.
You gain proficiency in Stealth and Survival checks.
Predator's Escape
6th-Level Way of the Puma Feature
If an opponent breaks your Predator's Grip, you may spend a ki point to use your reaction to move out of its melee range without provoking an attack of opportunity.
Worrying Grip
6th-level Way of the Puma feature
Your hunting ferocity begins to wear your opponents down.
Your Predator's Grip has the following additional effects:
A creature that is your size is now heavily encumbered by your predators grip.
A creature that begins its turn in your Predator's Grip must immediately use an action to break the grip or take one martial arts die of damage.
Vicious Predator
11th-Level Way of the Puma Feature
As a reaction, if a creature breaks your Predator's Grip, you can spend one ki point to make an attack of opportunity on that creature.
On a success, you can spend an additional ki point to attempt to reacquire your Predator's Grip as with any attack.
Suffocating Grip
17th-Level Way of the Puma feature
You are now able to drain the very breath from creatures in your Predator's Grip.
As an action on your turn, you can use 3 ki points to add the following effects to your Predator's Grip.
Until the creature breaks the Predator's Grip, they suffer one level of exhaustion at the beginning of each of their turns.
A creature that is one size larger or less than yourself begins suffocating.
Becoming invisible to larger targets is going to be problematic. I see what you are going for but it just doesn't work well. Especially on such a low level as level 3. On higher levels it's just weird. Remember that a restrained creature already has disadvantage on their attack rolls so the Predator's Grip is already really powerful. I'd change it so that you actually have to make a Grapple attack and not just get it for free, though. And it should be the monk's Atheltics roll against the target's Athletics or Acrobatics.
Except for that, I don't see any obvious problems with it. It's gonna bleed Ki points like a wounded gazelle and it pretty much lack any utility features that other subclasses might have but it works.
I'd like to ask for some clarification:
1. Why do you think it is problematic to be invisible to larger targets? That target is not restrained (it can't be grappled) so the only effect would be the advantage/disadvantage on attack rolls.
2. Why do you think the class would bleed ki points? I was actually worried that it didn't cost enough ki points.
3. Why should it be the monks athletics check? Monks typically use dexterity for unarmed strikes, is it OP to have a one use dexterity for a grapple?
4. Why do you think that the monk should not get the grip "for free"? It's at least one ki point and there's a check, similar to stunning strike.
5. Is there a utility feature you would suggest?
I see two issues with the Guarded Attack:
1. No per turn limit. You could try this with each attack and given that you could have a very high acrobatics score you would likely succeed and restrained is a pretty powerful condition as it is one of the only ways to give even ranged allies ADV on their attacks. While it is not as powerful as Stunned its also a LOT more likely to be imposed as you have more ways to augment your skills than an enemies CON. I would playtest it a bit and see how often it is successful for your group....if its more than 75% of the time its too powerful and should likely be a "once per turn" type of ability.
2. Invisibility while "latched". This is interesting but as others have commented they will already have DIS on attacks to the tabaxi due to restrained so my assumption is you are doing this as a way to combat other abilities that require sight like certain spells or creature abilities that rely on "a creature you can see" ? If so its an interesting way to make that work. I think it adds some mechanical complexity to the attack but ultimately might not impose an advantage in most situations. It might be worth thinking about what you want this ability to achieve on a thematic and mechanical level and sharing that so we have a bit of a better idea on how to help.
The basic idea is to impose the condition of "having a puma on your back". So, if a creature is seized by the monk at level three, it has a puma on its back. At level six, it has a puma on its back and that puma is raking it with its hind legs. At level 11, it has a very tenacious puma on its back, raking it with its hind legs. At level 17, it has a very tenacious puma on its back that is both raking it with its hind legs and crushing its throat.
So the idea is that as the monk increases in level, they just become better at being a puma on someone's back.
On 1: I think that with the tweak below this wouldn't be a problem -- rather than restraining the creature, it simply becomes grappled (if It can be grappled) and provides cover for the monk. So the benefit doesn't go to the entire party.
On 2: the invisibility is meant to deal with the fact that a creature too large to be grappled will not be considered restrained or even grappled, but is still being gripped. Basically, the monk can grab onto a dragon, but that won't stop the dragon from moving freely. It does make it more difficult for the dragon to hit the monk. Does this tweak help?
Predator's Grip
3rd-Level Way of the Puma feature
Using the methods of a hunting cat, you leap onto an opponent to deal deadly damage.
When you successfully attack a creature with an unarmed attack, you can spend one ki point to attempt to seize the creature. The creature must succeed on an acrobatics or athletics check against your acrobatics check or be considered grappled until it is able to break the grip, provided it is a creature that you are able to grapple. A creature that cannot be grappled is still considered held in the grip but is able to move freely, provided they are not burdened by your weight.
While you have a creature in Predator's Grip, the creature acts as half cover. This increases to three quarters cover at level 11 and total cover at level 17.
Well, you edited your post but when I wrote my answer you still had it as restrained. There really is no reason why you should become invisible to the target and it makes it extra strong against spellcasters that would need to see the monk to target them with spells. The new version also makes very little sense to give the monk cover. It's just unbalanced, especially at level 17. It basically makes it impossible for the target to get rid of the monk, the only way is to succeed against the grapple.
You have a lot of opportunities to spend Ki to do things like apply the Grip and re-apply it if the targets brekas lose. That tend to cause the monk to spend a lot of Ki. But since you want to make PG so good, it balances out. But this is probably a thing that will come clear during playtesting.
In short, yes. Or at least unbalanced. Athletics is the skill to use for grapples and the likes, there really is no reason why you should be able to use Acrobatics since that isn't what Acrobatics is all about. Make it a pure Dex roll to at least tone it down a little.
Because the grip is much more powerful than Stunning Strike, especially at higher levels. Also, since it is contested roll and you want to use one of the Monk's primary abilities it is a lot harder to succeed compared to a Con save. Getting both the attack (which means that you can apply stunning Strike to the attack) AND the Grip makes it really powerful. Especially considering how easy it is for the monk to get Expertise in Acrobatics.
Not anything special at the moment. A simple suggestion would be something like proficiency in Survival to show the kind of skills picked up in the wild. Proficiency and/or Expertise in Stealth also makes sense. If I can think of anything better I'll let you know. :)
So, other than either providing cover or having disadvantage on attacks, how would you represent the condition "you have a puma clinging to your back". From a purely observational standpoint, cover made sense to me--the creature that you are clinging to is actually providing the cover--but I'm open to suggestions.
As a grappler myself, I know for absolute certain that people whom I am much stronger than can grapple me with ease because they have greater skill. But regardless of that, when you say to make it a pure Dex roll, do you mean Dex vs. Dex or Strength, or Dex vs Athletics or Acrobatics?
I like the idea of adding a stealth and survival proficiency, it makes sense with this being a subclass focused on the concept of a hunting strike.
I think it creates a "Grapple Monk" that doesn't rely on STR which honestly does hold to 5e standards of Monk and based on the changes I think it looks fairly good as is. The cover was a good solution IMO!
The only thing you might consider is adding an additional rider on at 3rd level as a ribbon or out of combat benefit.
Example:
Puma Cunning
3rd-Level Way of the Puma feature
The puma guides your actions
You can spend 1 ki point to get ADV on a Deception (CHA) or Stealth (DEX) check.
So you got something interesting going on here, but I think it is a little bit weak as is. Grappling in and of itself isn't that impactful, all it does is reduce the target's movementspeed to 0. What this class should eventually be able to do is to restrain people instead. Attacks against a restrained creature has advantage, and restrained creatures have disadvantage on attacks.
There has also been criticism of this being too strong. Possibly a middle ground would be to essentially give the grappler feat with the dex based grappler: if a creature is in the predator's grip, on a subsequent turn the monk can use their action to make another grapple check to restrain? I'm trying to keep this balanced against other Monk ways.